On Custom Moves and their Future

[DaRkJaWs]

(Note to Mods: if there is a more appropriate place for this then please move it, otherwise I think my opinion on this needs to be heard far and wide).

Hi everybody, I'm a DK main and while I support customs I personally, even as a DK main, do not use them (although I will be using them in some sets at EVO, depending on which characters I'm facing...and if you think I'm fibbing about not using customs, I'll MM you with my vanilla DK against anyone you play). I'll keep this short and brief for the time being. There has been much chatter among the community that they think we should go forward without customs after EVO, and everybody seems to have just accepted this without much debate at all (formal debate, that is). Let me be the first to say that I know completely where this sentiment comes from. The idea that some of the customs are Jank/OP is a viewpoint I understand, and its true that some of them break the game in their own way (DK/Pikachu/Sonic/Villager, and arguably a few others). So the question of custom vs non custom is one that really messes with a lot of people, and given some of that Jank its understandable that it's easier to just do away with them and tell people to just go battle the "right way" (my words, but they capture the sentiment).

Well, the idea that they are jank is of course debatable. What isn't debatable is that customs add a lot of variety to the game. The truth is that many top players (AND their top 5-10 characters, don't forget!!) don't like this because they want to know what they are facing when they see the character selection screen and don't want random variables mixing in with that. It makes some characters a little more viable at the highest levels as well, that isn't debatable. But the idea that customs are jank still creeps in (and again, I get it).

So I have a solution to this for Smash 4 going into the indefinite future.
-Customs are always on. HOWEVER!....no matter which character you choose within the set, in the first game you have to go the vanilla version. So lets say for example you want to be able to use custom sonic and hence hammer spin dash or whatever its called. In order to do this (regardless of whether its 2/3 or 3/5) the player must play the first game with sonic as vanilla, non-custom sonic. You then "unlock" the ability (whether you won or lost game 1) to use hammer spin dash for the rest of the set. Or lets say in the second game you chose Falco. In game 3 and beyond you can now pick either custom Sonic or custom Falco.

Why do I see this as a solution? Because in essence, they could be losing the first game as whatever character they choose because they couldn't pick the "jank" version of their character. Furthermore, in reality changing over to your custom movesets is no different than simply picking a different character. Logically speaking there is no difference...for example, I could just choose Sheik or Rosalina instead of playing custom Falco....and I could argue that the very act of picking sheik or Rosa is more jank than any custom moveset out there. Also, if the Falco won game 1 then its proof that he didn't even need the customs to win anyway. And if he did lose, then it could be proof that falco needs customs in order to be viable. So its a win win situation for both players that think customs makes more characters viable (and adds some richness to the game), and to those that think customs make the character or game jank. Because you could be facing a mediocre donkey kong or Palutena, and that DK/Palutena HAS to pick his first game as vanilla DK/Palutena, so its one easy win for you getting you halfway to winning your set. In other words, you don't have to worry as much that you aren't actually losing to someone better than you. Furthermore, someone cannot willy nilly decide they need to use custom DK after losing the first game as, say, Mewtwo. They have to win the second game as vanilla DK, then can use custom DK. So this is definitely a win win here, and I hope all of you can see this as the solution.

Please posts your comments and thoughts below. I personally think this is THE solution going forward that will make everyone happy or mostly happy.

 

[A_Kae]

This doesn't sound like a good idea.

It seems to be totally based on the idea of customs being an invalid path to victory. That if someone wins using customs, they don't deserve the win. That if someone wants to use a bad character that is made good by customs, they have to throw away a match in order to use their character.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying here, but it seems like you think that customs are a illegitimate way of winning, and want to minimize the chances of victory for someone who uses customs.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Yeah well I'm sorry to tell you the reality that this is in fact what many people think, hence why many have come to the conclusion that customs will be gone after EVO (just talk to any TO in any location about this, all of them are getting rid of customs indefinitely in their weeklies or monthlies). I'm offering a solution to keep customs but keep them manageable so that everyone gets to continue playing the way they want to play. And keep in mind that I do not use customs myself.

 

[Wintropy]

Yeah well I'm sorry to tell you the reality that this is in fact what many people think, hence why many have come to the conclusion that customs will be gone after EVO (just talk to any TO in any location about this, all of them are getting rid of customs indefinitely in their weeklies or monthlies). I'm offering a solution to keep customs but keep them manageable so that everyone gets to continue playing the way they want to play. And keep in mind that I do not use customs myself.

Not to get involved in a discussion that I am not qualified to partake in, but I don't think you addressed the crux of the above poster's concerns.

He's asking you to clarify your position: nothing more, nothing less.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Not to get involved in a discussion that I am not qualified to partake in, but I don't think you addressed the crux of the above poster's concerns.

He's asking you to clarify your position: nothing more, nothing less.

Well I think it should be pretty obvious that I do not think customs are an illegitimate way to win, and the reason I did not address it is because it is off topic; the topic is that tournaments are banning customs, and how to retain them going forward in forming the general rulesets around the country that supports them.

 

[Doval]

Why do I see this as a solution? Because in essence, they could be losing the first game as whatever character they choose because they couldn't pick the "jank" version of their character. Furthermore, in reality changing over to your custom movesets is no different than simply picking a different character. Logically speaking there is no difference...

Therefore, you're arbitrarily saying some characters are OK for the first match of a set and some others aren't.

There's only two circumstances where it's OK to ban something:
1) Its inclusion results in an overwhelmingly less competitive game
2) The logistics of including it in a tournament just don't work.

There's no proof of #1, so if tournaments are banning customs, I sure hope it's for reason #2. Otherwise, they're being scrubby.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Look if you guys don't actually care about whats happening then I'll leave it alone as well, I honestly don't care too much myself because I don't use customs, I just wanted to save a lot of people from heartbreak later.

 

[A_Kae]

This won't help anything. People who are against customs won't be okay with them being legal like this, because they don't ever want them legal. There are two main reasons for banning customs.

1) Logistics: This is the big one. Customs are very hard to actually get, and while projects like what @ Amazing Ampharos made are great, they don't solve the problem completely. This is a legit reason to ban customs, and what you proposed won't solve this at all. Nothing can truly solve the logistics issues.

2): Customs are 'broken'. I've seen no evidence that customs ruin balance or make smash less competitive. Complaints about some customs, yes, but nothing that's truly worth a ban. Perhaps some customs are game breaking; if so, they can be banned individually, not customs as a whole. And in that case they should still be banned with your 'solution'.

In short, this solves none of the issues with customs, and just arbitrarily bans characters for the first match. This won't make people who are against customs be okay with them.

Edit: I see someone else posted before I did saying about the same thing. And as a response to the OP's post, this won't save anyone from anything. We care about what's happening, but this is not the way.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

I'm here with the assumption that guys either know whats going on, or are finding out from me what is going on. Local tournaments like Shockwave and I believe Xanadu and many others are banning customs from hereon out. And no discussion is taking place, it's a simple BAN and that's it. I don't want to hear your deductive reasoning (which is sound) for whether customs should be banned or not, for the last time it is off topic and not helpful.

 

[A_Kae]

I'm here with the assumption that guys either know whats going on, or are finding out from me what is going on. Local tournaments like Shockwave and I believe Xanadu and many others are banning customs from hereon out. And no discussion is taking place, it's a simple BAN and that's it. I don't want to hear your deductive reasoning (which is sound) for whether customs should be banned or not, for the last time it is off topic and not helpful.

This is all on-topic, unless I'm not understanding what the topic is about.

You want to ban customs for the first match. That's how I'm reading this. If I'm wrong, please tell me what your position is.

The same arguments apply for the first match ban as a a ban for all matches. People who are against customs are against them for reasons this can't help. And people who are for customs don't want first match bans.

You've managed to anger both groups at the same time.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

1) What is happening right now is customs will be REMOVED from Xanadu, Shockwave, VGBC, and likely many others for the indefinite future. No amount of deductive reasoning and/or CRYING is (likely) going to stop that from happening, and has no bearing on what is taking place with respect to the POINT I made that they are simply banning them.
2) In order so that we see customs at tournaments, I'm suggesting a middle ground between the players that like customs and the ones that don't. For those of you that support customs and don't like my idea that's totally fine...but you need to get your pitchforks out over twitter and other media and demand change. Unfortunately the ones that support customs are not top players (as all the top players play characters that don't have or need good customs) and they are the ones being listened to. If you want to be listened to, go complain to VGBC Gimr, to OracleTX, and many others.

 

[Ghostbone]

Therefore, you're arbitrarily saying some characters are OK for the first match of a set and some others aren't.

There's only two circumstances where it's OK to ban something:
1) Its inclusion results in an overwhelmingly less competitive game
2) The logistics of including it in a tournament just don't work.

There's no proof of #1, so if tournaments are banning customs, I sure hope it's for reason #2. Otherwise, they're being scrubby.

Turning customs off isn't banning customs the same way using stock isn't banning coin mode. It's an arbitrary in-game toggle that we're allowed to use depending on what the community prefers.
Furthermore, more moves doesn't mean more depth like people seem to think. A lot of customs trivialize the neutral or punish game, leading to less meaningful options throughout the match, which equates to a game with less competitive depth.
I feel this is why top players don't like customs even if they don't articulate this sentiment well ("customs are jank" etc.)

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Ghost bone you articulate the position of the best players quite well but also show why its bunk: some characters have a better neutral than others anyway, or are better characters in other ways. To suggest that customs make it difficult for a character like sheik is just a hilarious thing to say. But I myself am being off topic in that regardless of this, it doesn't change that nobody is fighting back, and the best long term solution so far between the players that like it and those that don't is mine, in my humble opinion. But if you guys fight hard enough perhaps you can keep them legal.

 

[T0MMY]

The offering you gave (Customs Off 1st round, on the other rounds) isn't going to change anyone's minds in my region, I believe; the entire Pacific Northwest has had plenty of Customs events and whether you approve of the laconic description of "jank" or not, that's the game-changer; Customs were hyped too much and didn't deliver. I asked in our social thread what people wanted after EVO and nearly everyone said Off.
I think even at this point EVO is going to be a huge success and it's still not going to help the momentum for customs - already Melee was given the main stage because the risk factor of how people react to a camp-fest with Villager or watching a good player get janked out by a cheap move would do more damage than the reward of showing off some kind of novel fledgling meta game. There's still that chance somehow the Custom meta will "wow" everyone into turning them back on, albeit it'll have to take something truly beautiful to happen in the short course of EVO to do this.

Right now I think anyone who wants events with Customs on had better start working on side-events and slowly integrating them into the competitive scene the way it was supposed to have been done, and pray that EVO isn't the final nail in the coffin. Hope that works out because they're fun and it'd be nice to see where it could develop (I'd also like to see where Equipment could go as well).

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The solution to TOs who adopt bad policy (like banning customs) is public pressure, not needless concession. The anti-custom people have been scrambling furiously in the background, but the public as a whole is still behind this whole thing. We'll just have to make that loud and visible going forward, and that should be the solution to our woes.

 

[shane3x]

If Nintendo releases a $5 unlock all customs quickly DLC sure, otherwise it has no future especially with patches balancing game around standard specials.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Good luck with that ampharos; look at the rhetoric shamelessly coming out of tommys keyboard and try to battle that. You're going to have to call people like him out. This isn't my fight so I won't partake in it, and while I'm definitely more sympathetic to the customs crowd I also understand the non custom crowd even if a lot of what they say is hyperbole or straight up bs like tommy.

 

[Doval]

Turning customs off isn't banning customs the same way using stock isn't banning coin mode. It's an arbitrary in-game toggle that we're allowed to use depending on what the community prefers.

Coin Battle is effectively banned from the mere fact that Stocks + Time is the only allowed format for a tournament match.

We can sit here and discuss the semantics of different words synonymous with forbidding all day or we can address the real topic of whether customs should be allowed or not.

Good luck with that ampharos; look at the rhetoric shamelessly coming out of tommys keyboard and try to battle that. You're going to have to call people like him out. This isn't my fight so I won't partake in it, and while I'm definitely more sympathetic to the customs crowd I also understand the non custom crowd even if a lot of what they say is hyperbole or straight up bs like tommy.

If you're not going to partake in it, don't call someone out by name and devalue them by labeling their opinion as BS. I want to think the Smash community is above this.

 

[Ghostbone]

Coin Battle is effectively banned from the mere fact that Stocks + Time is the only allowed format for a tournament match.

We can sit here and discuss the semantics of different words synonymous with forbidding all day or we can address the real topic of whether customs should be allowed or not.

Yea but the justifications for using an in game toggle or banning something are different.
There was a time where a few people argued for food on low in brawl, since it wasn't broken/didn't make the game uncompetitive (plus it helped prevent planking and emphasises stage control), but that doesn't mean we need to have food on.

Furthermore, Mario bros. isn't an uncompetitive stage in brawl, it's just super janky and emphasises different skillsets than the rest of the game (but results would still be consistent, ie. it's competitive), so there's more reasons to ban something than just making the game uncompetitive (though with all the varying definitions of that, good luck figuring out what to ban)

Basically, you can't support customs solely based upon the fact that the game isn't uncompetitive with them turned on (especially since many would argue it's less competitive, though it might not be to the degree you consider banworthy)

 

[Doval]

Yea but the justifications for using an in game toggle or banning something are different.
There was a time where a few people argued for food on low in brawl, since it wasn't broken/didn't make the game uncompetitive (plus it helped prevent planking and emphasises stage control), but that doesn't mean we need to have food on.

Being an in-game toggle in no way justifies a rule. Not being an in-game toggle can prevent a rule from being implemented if it simply can't be enforced but in-game toggles have no special status when it comes to considering what should be the rules.

As for the rest, just add "or significantly decreases the game's depth, as defined by the number of meaningful choices" after "uncompetitive."

My point is that any ban needs good reasons behind it and the burden of proof should fall on the pro-ban side. I've yet to hear any serious arguments for banning customs other than the logistics problems they present.

 

[Ghostbone]

Being an in-game toggle in no way justifies a rule. Not being an in-game toggle can prevent a rule from being implemented if it simply can't be enforced but in-game toggles have no special status when it comes to considering what should be the rules.

As for the rest, just add "or significantly decreases the game's depth, as defined by the number of meaningful choices" after "uncompetitive."

My point is that any ban needs good reasons behind it and the burden of proof should fall on the pro-ban side. I've yet to hear any serious arguments for banning customs other than the logistics problems they present.

Your argument is that customs don't make the game worse enough that they're worth banning.

My argument is that customs (specifically the customs on toggle) make the game worse enough that they're worth banning.

It's just preference, but don't act like your argument is justified while the anti-customs side is unjustified.

 

[blackghost]

Your argument is that customs don't make the game worse enough that they're worth banning.

My argument is that customs (specifically the customs on toggle) make the game worse enough that they're worth banning.

How do custo moves as a whole make the game worse? they provide more options, virtually all have very easy to see/exploit weaknesses, and using them rewards players for creativity as well as matchup knowledge. There is no proof that custom moves on make the game worse. There is evidence that character variety goes up as well as matchups get better. But the real proof that customs don't change the game as much as many people think is that default shiek, diddy, sonic, and pikachu still place very well in the custom tournaments.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I'm thinking that it will end up being a regional thing. Pretty much every region seems to not like customs (Tristate, NorCal, SoCal, Florida, MDVA) except for one: Midwest. I can't see the Midwest ever banning customs.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm thinking that it will end up being a regional thing. Pretty much every region seems to not like customs (Tristate, NorCal, SoCal, Florida, MDVA) except for one: Midwest. I can't see the Midwest ever banning customs.

The people I've talked to locally also seem to like customs, but I'm not sure if it's representative of our state. (Louisiana)

 

[DaRkJaWs]

If you're not going to partake in it, don't call someone out by name and devalue them by labeling their opinion as BS. I want to think the Smash community is above this.

Unlike you I can spot rhetoric as if someone is shooting a flamethrower at me. Tommy isn't giving his opinion, he's spouting BS. Saying customs didn't deliver as if he is speaking for the community, and then saying that his "social thread" didn't like them as if that "thread" is representative of the whole community (first of all, there is no social thread, he's talking about his few friends) is a continuation of that. In the end he pretends to throw out an olive branch to the pro-customs crowd by saying "ok, customs didn't deliver but maybe you guys could do something so it comes back" even though he has no intention whatsoever of giving them an inch, and then in mentioning equipment he's really showing what he thinks of the group of people who want customs...because everyone knows equipment is imbalanced as heck and could never be used in a competitive setting ( I think the word is facetious or flippant?). Again, this personally isn't my battle, but I can't watch people behind closed doors deciding what is good and right for the community, the number of people now making the rules and influencing them probably numbers less than 40. Now, what were you saying about the "community" again? That you like to see the 1% **** and pillage them?

 

[Doval]

Your argument is that customs don't make the game worse enough that they're worth banning.

My argument is that customs (specifically the customs on toggle) make the game worse enough that they're worth banning.

It's just preference, but don't act like your argument is justified while the anti-customs side is unjustified.

The issue is who has the burden of proof.

See the chapter What Should Be Banned? from the excellent Playing To Win book. A ban needs to be discrete, enforceable, and warranted. You can think what you want about customs. That's your opinion. If you're going to push for them being banned though, you need to show why they need to be banned.

 

[Ghostbone]

Sirlin's philosophies aren't the be all end all.
There's a reason he's seen as a complete joke by the fighting game community at large.

Also, the ban is warranted because the community wants them banned.

 

[Doval]

Sirlin's philosophies aren't the be all end all.
There's a reason he's seen as a complete joke by the fighting game community at large.

Also, the ban is warranted because the community wants them banned.

Sorry, "I want to ban this" is not a reason.

 

[Ghostbone]

Sorry, "I want to ban this" is not a reason.

Why not
If the community hates customs and many of them won't go to custom tournaments (evo being the exception), then the game's more competitive with customs banned.

And yes this would apply to anything, if everyone hated sonic so much that tournaments with sonic legal got 50% of the entrants tournaments without sonic have, then sonic should be banned even though there's no other justification for it.

 

[A_Kae]

Why not
If the community hates customs and many of them won't go to custom tournaments (evo being the exception), then the game's more competitive with customs banned.

And yes this would apply to anything, if everyone hated sonic so much that tournaments with sonic legal got 50% of the entrants tournaments without sonic have, then sonic should be banned even though there's no other justification for it.

What @ D Doval meant, I think, was that it's not a valid reason.

There may be a valid reason to ban customs, but wanting it to be that way isn't it.

Things can be banned because people just want it that way, but it shouldn't be the way things are done.

That's just my interpretation of the matter. I'm not making a statement here.

 

[Raijinken]

The thought is well-aimed, but it seems like adding more convolution to a system that is already seen as adding "useless" convolution.

While I personally love customs, the more I play the more I'm fine with defaults on a larger number of characters. There are still a handful that I really prefer customs on (for me, Mario, Doc Mario, DK, Link, Robin, Shulk, Ganondorf, Samus, Ike, Wario, and Bowser Jr.

I also prefer customs on because people can't seem to grasp making useful versions of the Miis playable if they're off. Honestly, while I still fully support customs, I would be content with a non-custom meta with Miis allowed (and customized/able to useful forms, none of that 1111 trash). Currently I'm just glad EVO is encouraging a lot of people to run with customs (though I still hate the 2/6 ruleset). I hope it keeps going.

 

[T0MMY]

The solution to TOs who adopt bad policy (like banning customs) is public pressure, not needless concession.

That's a false narrative: TO's are not "banning" Customs anymore than they are "banning" Items or Equipment, they are simply deciding NOT to turn on the optional game mechanic that many of their attendees either don't want or don't care about (although they have reason to be biased due to the setup required using them).
Big difference between banning and simply playing the game with the basic game rules.
A good way to push forward would be to promote Custom events at tournaments that do not have one instead of pushing the idea that there's some kind of futile minority scheming plots to "ban" things - THERE ARE A LOT OF US WHO WANT BOTH TO HAPPEN - don't pidgeon hole us, thx.

 

[Doval]

That's a false narrative: TO's are not "banning" Customs anymore than they are "banning" Items or Equipment, they are simply deciding NOT to turn on the optional game mechanic that many of their attendees either don't want or don't care about (although they have reason to be biased due to the setup required using them).
Big difference between banning and simply playing the game with the basic game rules.
A good way to push forward would be to promote Custom events at tournaments that do not have one instead of pushing the idea that there's some kind of futile minority scheming plots to "ban" things - THERE ARE A LOT OF US WHO WANT BOTH TO HAPPEN - don't pidgeon hole us, thx.

The community rules have never matched any of the game's default settings for "Smash", Tournament Mode, For Glory or Nintendo's own tournaments, so no, we're not just trying to use the basic game rules. Stocks + Time - Items - Some Stages is every bit as optional as Stocks + Time - Items - Some Stages + Customs.

 

[Raijinken]

The community rules have never matched any of the game's default settings for "Smash", Tournament Mode, For Glory or Nintendo's own tournaments, so no, we're not just trying to use the basic game rules. Stocks + Time - Items - Some Stages is every bit as optional as Stocks + Time - Items - Some Stages + Customs.

On top of this, refusal to adopt is functionally identical to a long-term ban. If something is not going to be run, trial adoption is discouraged, and thus future chances of adoption drop further. That's why it was so key to get Customs run at EVO this year instead of waiting even longer.

A common occurrence in pro Dota is that any hero too new/recently reworked/buggy/stupid broken/otherwise unusable in Captain's Mode (the primary competitive mode) does not get practiced by general pro players. So no matter how "absurdly broken" they may be, lack of actual experience at a high level of play means that when they DO get played pro (for instance, show matches, or the rare tournaments using alternate game modes like Captain's Draft) in scenarios where they're not banned, it's very rare to see them actually used decently. Done in a scene as small as Smash's, it could quite easily turn into a case of ignorance through lack of motivation.

Just think of how many pro players (Scar's commentary during the E3 2014 tournament springs to mind) literally have no clue how some items, stage mechanics, etc. work at even the basest level. That fear of uncertainty will spread into anything - the Smash community (or at least the more vocal portion) tends more towards conservatism with rulesets than not. Why practice for some "janky broken side event" when you could instead be practicing default Sheik so you can win the big bucks? It's a feedback loop that can only be fixed by making it not a matter of side event, but a matter of double event (maybe even like singles and doubles are). Treating customs as an alternate valid way to play will go a lot further than treating them as some peer pressured jank fad side event that you begrudge hosting and secretly (or vocally) hope will fade into oblivion.

In other words, treating any alternate ruleset as a side-event conveys an attitude of condescension towards that mode, and in turn, hinders that mode's long-term growth and success.

I'm all for running custom and non-custom tournaments. But the label "side event" should be reserved for deliberate funsies like Stamina, single-character, Amiibo teams, or Crew battles. Not for the ruleset being run by EVO.

 

[T0MMY]

The community rules have never matched any of the game's default settings for "Smash", Tournament Mode, For Glory or Nintendo's own tournaments, so no, we're not just trying to use the basic game rules. Stocks + Time - Items - Some Stages is every bit as optional as Stocks + Time - Items - Some Stages + Customs.

You either misunderstood the nature of my post or are purposefully creating a strawman argument. To clarify and/or keep on topic: I was not saying we should play on the default (2 min time + Items), I simply stated the complete difference between banning and choosing in-game settings. Choosing not to use the optinoal Custom Fighter setting is NOT banning it.
Is there something amiss with this statement?

There is no argument of where we START with rules. We start with the game at its default, for better or worse.
We started with time and items and we properly demonstrated the strength of these rules being changed formally and acceptable to a competitive community. We don't "ban" Time, we choose Stock instead because it is a stronger competitive choice. The same way we don't "Ban" customs in a conservative competition because a conservative ruleset simply opts not to utilize an optional game setting.

Please don't make it a case of "banning" customs, that's a losing argument that will end up hurting the chances of customs being used when the argument is defeated.

In other words, treating any alternate ruleset as a side-event conveys an attitude of condescension towards that mode, and in turn, hinders that mode's long-term growth and success.

Doubles says otherwise.

 

[deepseadiva]

I simply stated the complete difference between banning and choosing in-game settings. Choosing not to use the optinoal Custom Fighter setting is NOT banning it.
Is there something amiss with this statement?

That is the same thing.

"Cannot be used in tournament" means its banned. I get the aversion to using that wording, since banning is usually done on very serious grounds. But thats what it is. Walking around the wording doesn't alter the meaning of the behavior.

I get that Smash is this giant mess of configurations, but the configurations we don't competitively use are effectively banned. Semantics can be very powerful, so its important we call a ban a ban.

 

[T0MMY]

That is the same thing.

"Not used in tournament" means its banned. I get the aversion to using that wording, since banning is usually done on very serious grounds. But thats what it is. Walking around the wording doesn't alter the meaning of the behavior.

I get that Smash is this giant mess of configurations, but the configurations we don't competitively use are effectively banned. Semantics can be very powerful, so its important we call a ban a ban.

I disagree, a ban on Customs means that no tournament would be recognized by any competitive merit.
Whereas if the option to use them is always there (not banned), even if nobody is using them, there will at least be a possibility of having them used competitively.

Example: By your model characters like Pichu are "banned" because nobody uses them.
I'd like to keep Customs events open in some facet to be used competitively so even when the majority of events are turning Customs OFF there is still room for them to be used and not considered "banned" unless you want them completely banished from existence like many competitive players seem to be in favor of.

 

[deepseadiva]

Sorry, "cannot" be used in tournament. Lemme edit

Unselected implies theres an option.

 

[Ansou]

I don't see this as a solution at all to be honest. This means that I would have to play default Kirby in order to play him with customs. If customs are off, I'll just play Sheik or Roy. If customs are on, then I am more than happy to play Kirby. But I am not interested in playing default Kirby.

With this system people could still just blame me for using "jank" if I win when using customs. Either way, we need a ruleset that is suited for competitive play and not a ruleset where people have to prove themselves like "Hey, look! I can compete both with using customs and without!". Would you make rules forcing people to switch characters mid-set? I don't think you would have a rule saying that you have to play with Zelda in a set before you are allowed to use Sheik.

Anyway, customs are not jankier than default special moves. They are just other moves that players can choose from. A move doesn't become different just because it has the number 2 or 3 attached to it instead of 1. That shouldn't be very hard to understand, should it?

 

[T0MMY]

Sorry, "cannot" be used in tournament. Lemme edit

Unselected implies theres an option.

The issue with the "cannot" edit is that many rules are exclusive. You cannot have both items on and off. You cannot have Custom Fighters on and off. You cannot play every stage all at once.
These choices must be made in order for competition to proceed.

Rules don't say "You cannot use Coin Battle" they state "Stock" and number of stock used.
So I guess you are saying they are not banning these things and we can all be at ease knowing Customs are not banned (even if Custom Fighters is set to Off for basic competitions).