bokunosmashbros
Smash Rookie
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Oh, definitely. Whites have good grab range too and do a ton of pummel damage.
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Olimar Matchup Thread
- Thread starter steelguttey
- Start date
tasteless gentleman
Smash Journeyman
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Most in the game and the second hit seems almost instanteneous
steelguttey
mei is bei
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if u need to know about that matchup ss and professor pro are in the same pool at paragon so we're about to see some good **** with that
steelguttey
mei is bei
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ight this starts falcon week.
Character: Bowser
Stages: Final Destination, Dreamland, Pokemon Stadium 2, Smashville and Delfino's
Optimal Pikmin Lineup: two not-purple pikmin and one purple pikmin. preferably whites.
Matchup Ratio:
70-30
Tips:
[/quote]
Stages: Final Destination, Dreamland, Pokemon Stadium 2, Smashville and Delfino's
Optimal Pikmin Lineup: two not-purple pikmin and one purple pikmin. preferably whites.
Matchup Ratio:
70-30Tips:
[/quote]
uh i think my thoughts on the mu are... bowser is a really annoying character if yo udont know his di patterns, i suggest going to the bowser boards and asking which ways to di his throws and his confirms cus he ****in hurts if you di incorrectly. anyway, on olimars side its real easy. throw pikmin and when he approaches, fsmash. the only real neutral option he has is blame breath and you can just hop on a platform and wait. then reset to neutral. pretty easy. just keep throwing pikmin, eventually he has to smarten up and hit them off then you just punish his laggy ass moves. snoooore. he edgeguards you hella hard tho
Not sure what to rate this. I don't think any top Falcon vs Oli matches have happened... in any PM patch lol. If we're going off reasonable theorycraft or intuition, both Falcon or Oli could be argued to win perhaps
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tasteless gentleman
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2015
- Messages
- 492
I am a good olimar and i played a good falcon and its rough but olimar can gimp falcon really badly, but falcon can edgeguard olimar equally badly. Olimar cant really camp falcon (but who can really) and falcon can pressure olimar really hard but if olimar gets a grab, its gonna hurt.
Ridel
Smash Ace
Mostly this IMO. I feel if we put it in numbers it's about even (50-50) or slightly in Falcon's favor (65-45).
eideeiit
Smash Ace
steelguttey
mei is bei
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tbh i still think oli wins this
prolly 60-40, more later
prolly 60-40, more later
bokunosmashbros
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2015
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- 8
I think Oli wins this too. It's so dangerous for Falcon to approach since he needs to be really close to do anything, and any whiff means a huuuge punish. Falcon should be dead from 1-2 punishes. Also add the fact that pikmin throw can force Falcon to approach, and Olimar can threaten Falcon in neutral better than Falcon can threaten him. This is also good for Olimar since this is one of the only matchups where Olimar can edgeguard the opponent almost as easily as the opponent can edgeguard him.
steelguttey
mei is bei
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late as fuuuuuck srryyy
uhh this starts zard week
this is the 3.0 zard advice we had.
uhh this starts zard week
Character: Captain Falcon
Stages: Fountain of Dreams, Warioland, Yoshi's Story
Optimal Pikmin Lineup: 2 purples and a non-purple
Matchup Ratio: 60-40
Tips:
we didnt get a whole lot of tips on this but
i did a review on dotcom's match vs smokey which i talk about the mu quite a bit. i think we win it simply because we dont let falcon use his speed and quick aerials unless we are both in neutral in a completely equal state, which doesnt happen very often. our punish game on falcon not only lets us rack up huge amounts of damage but also lets us stagger on pikmin after. so end combos with fair, even if you have to end them early. the reason for this is so when he lands, you start throwing pikmin. when he has a pikmin on him he has very limited options. dash dancing, while still possible, is a bad idea because all it will do is make him take damage. he can run back, uair and hit the pikmin off and reset the situation, in which we can just throw another pikmin, or he can simply charge at you with a nair, which is what a ton of falcon's looove doing. when this happens, depending on the spacing you should fsmash or simply block it and fair/bair him oos. edgeguarding falcon is simple, learn the spacing for fsmash to cover the ledge and whenever hes offstage get ready to use it. if you think hes gonna go for side b, you should side b him mid flight and he'll go into freefall because he'll hit the pikmin.
Stages: Fountain of Dreams, Warioland, Yoshi's Story
Optimal Pikmin Lineup: 2 purples and a non-purple
Matchup Ratio:
60-40 Tips:
we didnt get a whole lot of tips on this but
i did a review on dotcom's match vs smokey which i talk about the mu quite a bit. i think we win it simply because we dont let falcon use his speed and quick aerials unless we are both in neutral in a completely equal state, which doesnt happen very often. our punish game on falcon not only lets us rack up huge amounts of damage but also lets us stagger on pikmin after. so end combos with fair, even if you have to end them early. the reason for this is so when he lands, you start throwing pikmin. when he has a pikmin on him he has very limited options. dash dancing, while still possible, is a bad idea because all it will do is make him take damage. he can run back, uair and hit the pikmin off and reset the situation, in which we can just throw another pikmin, or he can simply charge at you with a nair, which is what a ton of falcon's looove doing. when this happens, depending on the spacing you should fsmash or simply block it and fair/bair him oos. edgeguarding falcon is simple, learn the spacing for fsmash to cover the ledge and whenever hes offstage get ready to use it. if you think hes gonna go for side b, you should side b him mid flight and he'll go into freefall because he'll hit the pikmin.
Good Stages: PS2, Smashville, Battlefield
Percent at which flowered purple usmash can kill at: 79%
Matchup Ratio: 5-5
Tips:
Percent at which flowered purple usmash can kill at: 79%
Matchup Ratio: 5-5
Tips:
Character: Captain Falcon
Stages: Fountain of Dreams, Warioland, Yoshi's Story
Optimal Pikmin Lineup: 2 purples and a non-purple
Matchup Ratio: 60-40
Tips:
we didnt get a whole lot of tips on this but
i did a review on dotcom's match vs smokey which i talk about the mu quite a bit. i think we win it simply because we dont let falcon use his speed and quick aerials unless we are both in neutral in a completely equal state, which doesnt happen very often. our punish game on falcon not only lets us rack up huge amounts of damage but also lets us stagger on pikmin after. so end combos with fair, even if you have to end them early. the reason for this is so when he lands, you start throwing pikmin. when he has a pikmin on him he has very limited options. dash dancing, while still possible, is a bad idea because all it will do is make him take damage. he can run back, uair and hit the pikmin off and reset the situation, in which we can just throw another pikmin, or he can simply charge at you with a nair, which is what a ton of falcon's looove doing. when this happens, depending on the spacing you should fsmash or simply block it and fair/bair him oos. edgeguarding falcon is simple, learn the spacing for fsmash to cover the ledge and whenever hes offstage get ready to use it. if you think hes gonna go for side b, you should side b him mid flight and he'll go into freefall because he'll hit the pikmin.
Stages: Fountain of Dreams, Warioland, Yoshi's Story
Optimal Pikmin Lineup: 2 purples and a non-purple
Matchup Ratio:
60-40 Tips:
we didnt get a whole lot of tips on this but
i did a review on dotcom's match vs smokey which i talk about the mu quite a bit. i think we win it simply because we dont let falcon use his speed and quick aerials unless we are both in neutral in a completely equal state, which doesnt happen very often. our punish game on falcon not only lets us rack up huge amounts of damage but also lets us stagger on pikmin after. so end combos with fair, even if you have to end them early. the reason for this is so when he lands, you start throwing pikmin. when he has a pikmin on him he has very limited options. dash dancing, while still possible, is a bad idea because all it will do is make him take damage. he can run back, uair and hit the pikmin off and reset the situation, in which we can just throw another pikmin, or he can simply charge at you with a nair, which is what a ton of falcon's looove doing. when this happens, depending on the spacing you should fsmash or simply block it and fair/bair him oos. edgeguarding falcon is simple, learn the spacing for fsmash to cover the ledge and whenever hes offstage get ready to use it. if you think hes gonna go for side b, you should side b him mid flight and he'll go into freefall because he'll hit the pikmin.
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Warning: pure theorycrafting below
We kinda win neutral because Pikmin Toss, doubly so because Zard lacks moves that covers his entire body (besides Up B or something, but doing that in neutral...). He CAN ignore them but we got them "respect my space" moves (pivot f smash/grab, retreating bair/RAR fair to name a few) to make sure he doesn't charge in often. He's still fast, though, so make sure to not be to predictable with those keep out options and Pikmin Toss, or he'll get in and grab you.
That's bad, because Zard can tech chase pretty well and we have a fairly poopy tech roll. This means that if we get grabbed, we eating some damage and possibly get offstage against one of the best edgeguarders in the game. On the other hand, if we get a grab, he eats 60-70% or worse, and will have to recover against f smash and other nice things with that percent (if we didn't kill with a Purple Up Air mid juggle). We combo him harder by virtue of him being a fatty, but he can close out stocks early with a low percent edgeguard or a Sky Attack (Up Air(s) > Up B) star KO, so punishes are evenish, I guess?
It's one of those MUs where whoever gets grabbed dies, but we edge out neutral just because Zard can't get Pikmin off of him without committing. I'd say about 55-45 to 60-40 (at best) in our favor, but it's probably evenish. Maybe if someone played Zen we'd get a better idea...oh well 9.9
We kinda win neutral because Pikmin Toss, doubly so because Zard lacks moves that covers his entire body (besides Up B or something, but doing that in neutral...). He CAN ignore them but we got them "respect my space" moves (pivot f smash/grab, retreating bair/RAR fair to name a few) to make sure he doesn't charge in often. He's still fast, though, so make sure to not be to predictable with those keep out options and Pikmin Toss, or he'll get in and grab you.
That's bad, because Zard can tech chase pretty well and we have a fairly poopy tech roll. This means that if we get grabbed, we eating some damage and possibly get offstage against one of the best edgeguarders in the game. On the other hand, if we get a grab, he eats 60-70% or worse, and will have to recover against f smash and other nice things with that percent (if we didn't kill with a Purple Up Air mid juggle). We combo him harder by virtue of him being a fatty, but he can close out stocks early with a low percent edgeguard or a Sky Attack (Up Air(s) > Up B) star KO, so punishes are evenish, I guess?
It's one of those MUs where whoever gets grabbed dies, but we edge out neutral just because Zard can't get Pikmin off of him without committing. I'd say about 55-45 to 60-40 (at best) in our favor, but it's probably evenish. Maybe if someone played Zen we'd get a better idea...oh well 9.9
Major_League_Odish
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2014
- Messages
- 6
I've played a little in this mu so I can't say non of this is concrete. Also some of this may stem from my style of play rather then general Olimar stuff soooo yeah.
Zard is big. He's combo fodder. But his aerials can be annoying and beat out ours. Camp, get a grab, combo. Best case you land a side-b purple and grab him out of his tech.
On recovery i'm not to sure if his neutral aerial can go under the ledge enough to hit us before we sweetspot, but I wouldn't doubt it. Edgeguarding him can be pretty easy imo. He has three jumps but they're not huge and his up-b works in a way that he cant really sweetspot unless he goes (nearly) straight from under it and its really predictable
Zard is big. He's combo fodder. But his aerials can be annoying and beat out ours. Camp, get a grab, combo. Best case you land a side-b purple and grab him out of his tech.
On recovery i'm not to sure if his neutral aerial can go under the ledge enough to hit us before we sweetspot, but I wouldn't doubt it. Edgeguarding him can be pretty easy imo. He has three jumps but they're not huge and his up-b works in a way that he cant really sweetspot unless he goes (nearly) straight from under it and its really predictable
steelguttey
mei is bei
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guttey is late again woop woop
this starts ****ty dong week. personally my favorite matchup in the game but i know
Soft Serve
knows a ton about this so go crazy <333
3.0 advice:
EDIT: also i know that @Shokio knows this mu but idk what luck's sb account is
Character: Charizard
Stages: Smashville, Pokemon Stadium 2, Battlefield
Optimal Pikmin Lineup: 1 purple, 2 non-purples
Matchup Ratio: 5-5
Tips:
Stages: Smashville, Pokemon Stadium 2, Battlefield
Optimal Pikmin Lineup: 1 purple, 2 non-purples
Matchup Ratio: 5-5
Tips:
i think this mu is still even like it was in 3.0, simply because zard is a grappler that is very fast with long range, but slow moves with a ton of knockback. which means side b beats him when we get it on him, but he can beat us if he gets anywhere near us that we dont like. i think its even, purples arent a real necessity in this matchup which is uncommon.
Soft Serve
knows a ton about this so go crazy <3333.0 advice:
Good Stages:
Percent at which flowered purple usmash can kill at: 82%
Matchup Ratio:
Tips:
Percent at which flowered purple usmash can kill at: 82%
Matchup Ratio:
Tips:
me said:
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I agree with slight diddy favor. It's a really fun MU, imo.
Diddy has a lot of outs for olimars pikmin shenanigans. He has significantly better overall movement, and if he is on a stage with a good platform layout for him movement (battlefield is his best stage) he is really hard to catch and always threatens space with banana archs from any point on it. But both characters really suck at approaching each other, and hold center stage really well, and combo/edgeguard each other really really well.
I'm not super well versed in olimars side of the MU, but from diddy's side my goal and options in neutral are very clear: let him pluck so I can pull a banana out, then don't mess up and wait for him to do something I can either grab, side b, or throw a banana at. If he throws a pikmin I have a few options to deal with it. Jumping over it and risking losing stage control isn't worth the stray % because the punish game is already so severe, so I just eat it and kill it quickly. Bair can hit all of them out of the air (does 12%) but my favorite counter play is to jump facing away, z drop a banana which hits the pikmin off you, then pick one of 4 options depending on how I feel in the situation: if I'm close and I want to hit them and I'm not afraid of getting grabbed I'll do a falling bair. If im not comfortable where I am and I'm afraid he is going to jump up and fair me or grab my landing, I'll just agt real quickly, making space between us while still putting out a hitbox towards you (which I can covert into a grab if It hits or if shielded if I'm in range). It's the safer option but risks losing the banana, and particularly loses to sh pikmin waveland. The safest option when I just don't want to be at that spot and don't want to risk anything is to just waveland away, you give up some space but you keep the banana and you can potentially be in position to whiff punish if olimar jumped at me. If I want to power through a 2nd pikmin or read olimar trying to shield the bair or the agt, I'll do a falling side b and combo off of that with big damage.
Diddy's goal is to covert into grabs and just do falcon combos on olimar, upthrow upair fair is amazing vs olimar and puts him in a garbage position to recover from. Simple banana covertions all work, all nair combos work, simple middleweight combo trees. I NEVER want to jump in when olimar is in a position to pivot grab, it's just hell. Olimar wins at max distances where bananas are reactable, and close ranges where olimars faster tilts are more potent (and if diddy had a banana he can't quickly use his ground options). If I get grabbed I should die.
Diddy edge guards olimar by harassing olimar off stage with projectiles and just bair him out of up b, or hold ledge and do late/reverse upair to keep olimar off stage. Eventually you'll force Oli to go low, then you just hold ledge and punish accordingly, so olimar should try to go high and platform cancel, and make sure you sdi/di all moves properly so you have more chances for diddy to mess up.
Fsmash edge guards diddy nearly by itself. The only thing fsmash doesn't cover is high up-bs and perfect horizontal sweet spots, which are reactable or lose to bair from ledge, respectively. Diddy's recovery is long but easy to intercept if you learn how it works and react to his angle choices.
Important counter play/things to look for:
Watch out for the soul fist, sh popgun agt banana. It's diddy's best approach significantly, the peanut will arch over pikmin and if you shield the banana you're going to get grabbed most likely. It's really good but it's a bit of a hail mary, if diddy does it he risked a lot and really wanted to force an opening.
Sh side b waveland to pick up straw bananas. Keeping the banana is really really key. Get comfortable with having it in and and using it to whiff punish jump ins because diddy loses a lot of potential to hit you if you just hold onto it. Think of using a banana in situation where you would pivot grab, you're punishing missed moves and landing lags with it . Oli isn't a fast enough character to throw it off stage and punish diddy from running and pulling a new one, so use it, or at least let it sit behind/under you with your stage positioning. Learn how to comfortably do your aerials with it a banana, z drop right before and you can do all of your aerials just 2 frames later.
It's also important to learn how to comfortably fsmash with a banana in hand: just be holding an attack button and then hit the c stick. You can press a during any thing. Like a pluck or a side b, this is really strong when edge guarding diddy because you can just fsmash without losing the banana or letting it time out.
I think it's 60/40 diddy's favor, mostly because diddy has more of an edge in neutral when he has a banana, and olimar can't really rush diddy down and prevent him from pulling.
It's a really fun MU, if you have a good diddy main in your region try to grind it out. Diddy and olimar mains are so few and far between, if you know the MU you can catch someone else off guard Oos or something. It's also a really similar MU for diddy to other ones, but I don't think it plays out like any other MU for olimar. Maybe wolf, I think wolf and diddy have similar game plans vs olimar.
Diddy has a lot of outs for olimars pikmin shenanigans. He has significantly better overall movement, and if he is on a stage with a good platform layout for him movement (battlefield is his best stage) he is really hard to catch and always threatens space with banana archs from any point on it. But both characters really suck at approaching each other, and hold center stage really well, and combo/edgeguard each other really really well.
I'm not super well versed in olimars side of the MU, but from diddy's side my goal and options in neutral are very clear: let him pluck so I can pull a banana out, then don't mess up and wait for him to do something I can either grab, side b, or throw a banana at. If he throws a pikmin I have a few options to deal with it. Jumping over it and risking losing stage control isn't worth the stray % because the punish game is already so severe, so I just eat it and kill it quickly. Bair can hit all of them out of the air (does 12%) but my favorite counter play is to jump facing away, z drop a banana which hits the pikmin off you, then pick one of 4 options depending on how I feel in the situation: if I'm close and I want to hit them and I'm not afraid of getting grabbed I'll do a falling bair. If im not comfortable where I am and I'm afraid he is going to jump up and fair me or grab my landing, I'll just agt real quickly, making space between us while still putting out a hitbox towards you (which I can covert into a grab if It hits or if shielded if I'm in range). It's the safer option but risks losing the banana, and particularly loses to sh pikmin waveland. The safest option when I just don't want to be at that spot and don't want to risk anything is to just waveland away, you give up some space but you keep the banana and you can potentially be in position to whiff punish if olimar jumped at me. If I want to power through a 2nd pikmin or read olimar trying to shield the bair or the agt, I'll do a falling side b and combo off of that with big damage.
Diddy's goal is to covert into grabs and just do falcon combos on olimar, upthrow upair fair is amazing vs olimar and puts him in a garbage position to recover from. Simple banana covertions all work, all nair combos work, simple middleweight combo trees. I NEVER want to jump in when olimar is in a position to pivot grab, it's just hell. Olimar wins at max distances where bananas are reactable, and close ranges where olimars faster tilts are more potent (and if diddy had a banana he can't quickly use his ground options). If I get grabbed I should die.
Diddy edge guards olimar by harassing olimar off stage with projectiles and just bair him out of up b, or hold ledge and do late/reverse upair to keep olimar off stage. Eventually you'll force Oli to go low, then you just hold ledge and punish accordingly, so olimar should try to go high and platform cancel, and make sure you sdi/di all moves properly so you have more chances for diddy to mess up.
Fsmash edge guards diddy nearly by itself. The only thing fsmash doesn't cover is high up-bs and perfect horizontal sweet spots, which are reactable or lose to bair from ledge, respectively. Diddy's recovery is long but easy to intercept if you learn how it works and react to his angle choices.
Important counter play/things to look for:
Watch out for the soul fist, sh popgun agt banana. It's diddy's best approach significantly, the peanut will arch over pikmin and if you shield the banana you're going to get grabbed most likely. It's really good but it's a bit of a hail mary, if diddy does it he risked a lot and really wanted to force an opening.
Sh side b waveland to pick up straw bananas. Keeping the banana is really really key. Get comfortable with having it in and and using it to whiff punish jump ins because diddy loses a lot of potential to hit you if you just hold onto it. Think of using a banana in situation where you would pivot grab, you're punishing missed moves and landing lags with it . Oli isn't a fast enough character to throw it off stage and punish diddy from running and pulling a new one, so use it, or at least let it sit behind/under you with your stage positioning. Learn how to comfortably do your aerials with it a banana, z drop right before and you can do all of your aerials just 2 frames later.
It's also important to learn how to comfortably fsmash with a banana in hand: just be holding an attack button and then hit the c stick. You can press a during any thing. Like a pluck or a side b, this is really strong when edge guarding diddy because you can just fsmash without losing the banana or letting it time out.
I think it's 60/40 diddy's favor, mostly because diddy has more of an edge in neutral when he has a banana, and olimar can't really rush diddy down and prevent him from pulling.
It's a really fun MU, if you have a good diddy main in your region try to grind it out. Diddy and olimar mains are so few and far between, if you know the MU you can catch someone else off guard Oos or something. It's also a really similar MU for diddy to other ones, but I don't think it plays out like any other MU for olimar. Maybe wolf, I think wolf and diddy have similar game plans vs olimar.
Searing_Sorrow
Smash Journeyman
Diddy olimar... is the competitive experience of watching paint dry. I would actually say oli has a slightly easier time approaching, but why should he. Diddy will essentially always have a banana at will on any normal stage, and olimar will be living longer than average, so any punish means it's going to be devastating.
If diddy gets the life lead, prepare to see a lot of air camping tricks, and a ton of peanutnpopgun. (So same thing)
If olimar gets the life lead, he has no reason to get more aggressive until at least bud are on pikmin, as long as his item game is on point and he doesn't stay a sitting duck. Honestly the only reason I would even say diddy favor is #1 no one plays this matchup (like melee zelda vs ice climbers) and #2 diddy isn't dependent on rnjesus. Both require setup for their optimal punishes so that isn't really a hold back unless you are starting with two reds Two blues early percent -.-
I will say once ground control is given up as olimar, it is really hard to get it back, not because of the rate of fire on popgun, but because the options out of the situation are really limited, and diddy punishes linear approaches pretty hard. Could see the matchup go either way, cause sdi needs to be on point for olimar not to treat you like a mr. Sandbag on combos.
If diddy gets the life lead, prepare to see a lot of air camping tricks, and a ton of peanutnpopgun. (So same thing)
If olimar gets the life lead, he has no reason to get more aggressive until at least bud are on pikmin, as long as his item game is on point and he doesn't stay a sitting duck. Honestly the only reason I would even say diddy favor is #1 no one plays this matchup (like melee zelda vs ice climbers) and #2 diddy isn't dependent on rnjesus. Both require setup for their optimal punishes so that isn't really a hold back unless you are starting with two reds Two blues early percent -.-
I will say once ground control is given up as olimar, it is really hard to get it back, not because of the rate of fire on popgun, but because the options out of the situation are really limited, and diddy punishes linear approaches pretty hard. Could see the matchup go either way, cause sdi needs to be on point for olimar not to treat you like a mr. Sandbag on combos.
robosteven
Smash Lord
Oli poops on Diddy if your item game is on point. If you pick up the banana and just side-b camp, Diddy can't do anything to you.
I'd explain more, but this is literally the entire matchup lmao
I'd explain more, but this is literally the entire matchup lmao
steelguttey
mei is bei
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- Mar 25, 2014
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rad. this starts donkey kong week.
Character: Diddy Kong
Stages: Wario Ware, Yoshi's Story, Delfino's Plaza
Optimal Pikmin Lineup: Purple, Purple, Yellow
Matchup Ratio:5-5
Tips:
Stages: Wario Ware, Yoshi's Story, Delfino's Plaza
Optimal Pikmin Lineup: Purple, Purple, Yellow
Matchup Ratio:
5-5Tips:
Character: Diddy Kong
Stages: Wario Ware, Yoshi's Story, Delfino's Plaza
Optimal Pikmin Lineup: Purple, Purple, Yellow
Matchup Ratio:
Tips:
Stages: Wario Ware, Yoshi's Story, Delfino's Plaza
Optimal Pikmin Lineup: Purple, Purple, Yellow
Matchup Ratio:
Tips:
i think this is an amazing and even matchup. olimar's item game has to be on point but diddy has to be super careful of peel shenanigans.
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robosteven
Smash Lord
Donkey Kong is either an even matchup or in Oli's favor. The punish game is really strong on both parties, Oli barely has to approach the entire time, and once he gets DK offstage the edgeguard is really easy. Nair works wonders against him too due to his size. However, due to his techroll and OoS options, DK can space out and pressure Olimar really well, and one hit can lead to massive damage.
IMO 55-45 Oli.
Sidenote: This is one of my favorite matchups in the game to play.
IMO 55-45 Oli.
Sidenote: This is one of my favorite matchups in the game to play.
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robosteven
Smash Lord
steelguttey
mei is bei
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oli has a really weird amount of even matchups, like 35+ its so weird
Ridel
Smash Ace
Pretty much on the same boat here. Nothing much else to add.
steelguttey
mei is bei
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Character: Donkey Kong
Stages: Large stages
Optimal Pikmin Lineup:
Matchup Ratio:55-45
Tips:
Stages: Large stages
Optimal Pikmin Lineup:
Matchup Ratio:
55-45Tips:
Tobb99
Smash Apprentice
I've recently came back from Beast 6. I played a lot of PM, and I thought I'd share some of my insights on different matchups I encountered.
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I played against Can~D. I really don't know how to handle this MU, it's supposed to be really in Olimars favor, but Bowser is scary with all the tricks, and he can kill you in a few hits. Long stages are definitely your go-to stages, Bowser can get great movement on platform stages such as Battlefield, Warioland and Yoshis (melee). Watch out for the Flame Breath, DO NOT DI IN, you'll only take more damage. I tried to DI out and roll behind, it worked once but I couldn't do it more times, might be good if you can react to it. Edgeguarding is definitely something Olimar excels at, but whach out if the Bowser is good he can trick be tricky with his recovery. Sometimes do a really perfect sweet-spot, other times do the Down B to ledge, and some times go high or medium high. On bigger stages you can definetly play slowly, and Can~D played the match-up quite slowly and carefully until he got an opening/advantagous position. Bowser can also edgeuard very well so be good at mixing up your recovery, and watch out for the ledge jump bair, excellent for covering high recovery. I think this matchup could be really good once you know the tricks and mixups Bowser has. Because Olimar got a better neutral game, he is faster, got great projectiles, great spacing, fast moves, great grab and good edgeguard. So if you outplay him in the neutral, avoid Bowsers strong hits and edgeguards you should probably be fine.
Even though I played some Falcons, I'm not entirely sure what do in this matchup. More specifically what to do against a "swingy" CF and a "dash dance campy" CF. CF got great moves to combat Olimars zooning/spacing. Funny enough when I play against CF's I feel like they got a good control of the pace of the mach but misses lot's of airials, but I didn't get how to punish them. The things I found out are that edgeguards are super free. Just throw all pikmins off stage and they should be dead if they recover low. D-smash works well at times, and also bairs. If he goes high then fair or u-air can be a good choice. I think you have to have a solid punish game in this matchup, and get good u-air juggles and great punish out of grabs, and in best case lead that into an edgeguard. One thing is that even though Falcon got great punish game, Olimar seems somewhat to floaty for Falcon to finish with the knee, which definetly is an advantage. The downside however is that even if he doesn't finish the combo, it still is a tough for Olimar being high in the air from u-air juggles. I think you should recover low, Falcon can cover high recoveries with knee or u-air, so that might be better. Especially if the Falcon holds ledge to edgeguard, and mix up sweetspoting and landing on stage with up-b.
I don't know what pikmins are good in this matchup but I think whites bad, and purple might be really good if it out-prioritises nairs, then you start a combo out of it. When it comes to stages, I think most people know that Falcons like long stages where they can dash dance all day, so a small stage like Warioland is probably better so you can corner them This matchup might be even or an advantage for Olimar if you got a great punish game.
I played against Zen's zard and DW's zard, here's what I got. Weirdly enough it seems like or moves beat Zards a lot of the time, like fair and nair. Probably because Zard is so big, so he get hit easily. What I discovered that nair combos are super good in this matchup. You want to combo zard as hard as possible so you can rack up the damage and then try to find a KO move. When I played against Zen I really had hard time, mostly because he's a better player the me, but I had a better fight against DW. DW said that Olimars dash dance camp was quite annoying/scary, and that the punish game was scary, how Olimar could get so much damage out of one hit confirm. I noticed on the other hand that Zard has a really good time when he got space to position himself and space out moves well. The flame tip on his tail can really hurt at times, but if he doesn't hit with it, his airials aren't that strong and I could combo break with a fair or nair at times. Zard can also cover space above himself really well. His up-smash is enormous and really safe if he is below a platform you're standing on. But if tries to Up-smash or up-tilt, I think shield drop nair is super good counter, but it's pretty hard to do but theoretically it could be really good, and make the Zard respect you more on platforms. I think grabs also are good in this matchup if you get them, they can lead into a great combo with more nairs since Olimars grab punishes are so strong. You also want to watch out for the flamethrower jank and not DI in, similar to Bowser but I think Zards is worse than Bowsers. One thing in this matchup that still is a question mark is the edgeguards. I have no clue how to edgeguard Zard, he got such good recovery. If he goes low maybe f-smash or d-smash. But the problem is his down-b flight, he can change direction any time and airial out of it. Maybe wait and try to get an u-smash, or try to keep a good stage control, and from there trying to get a fair close to the ledge to finish him off.
I'm not sure what pikmins are good in this matchup, maybe white since they're so easy to hit. At late % I think blue is super good. Purple is always good, but yellow could be good, gaining some space and speed against Zard. I think that you should avoid stages with big blastzones at all cost in this matchup. I'm not sure wether a small stage or big stage is good in this matchup. A big stage might be better, even though Zard got a good dash dance and run speed, I think his coverage outshines that, so Zard might do better on a small stage. I don't know the ratio in this MU but I think it could be slightly in Zards favor or maybe even.
I played a lot against a Kirby player from Netherlands called TDX. I feel like this is a good matchup for Olimar. Olimar has good disjoints and strong attacks both for racking up damage and KOing. I used a lot of airials, mostly fair, to wall Kirby out, sometimes went in with a nair to catch him off guard. Nair can combo really well so, thats really good, can combo into a fair for damage or as a KO move. If you want you can camp as well with side B, or dash dance camp, it works as well.
Some things to keep in mind/avoid in this matchup are: First of: Combos. Kirby has a pretty solid combo game, and if you have good DI and SDI, you can avoid his main way of racking up damage. You can SDI his fair behind him leaving him hard to follow up from that, and completely ruins his edgeguard if goes for that as an edgeguard option. He might be able to drift back to cover that SDI, but be aware of that and SDI differently in that case.
Secondly: approaches. Not really avoid but be aware of. Kirby can approaches with dash attack and horizonal side-B, and if he lands behind you, which he often is looking for, he can imitatively start pressuring with up-tilts, which can start a combo with up-tilt > upairs stuff. I'm not sure if you can nair OOS after an up-titlt. Maybe use roll or wave dash oos to get out of that uncomfortable situation. You want to be aware of that Kirby has some tricks with dash attacks down from platforms, which can be used as an approach option.
Thirdly: Grabs. Kirby has a great tech chase game out of D-throw, and if he gets a good read or reset, he can hammer which is a strong KO option. I did a good job mixing up techs leaving him a hard time guessing. Probably a bad thing to tech in place, since I could see that a lot of Kirby's might cover that option first with jab or hammer, similar to Falcons trying to read tech in place with knee.
Fourth: Ways Kirby can get down from the air. Olimar usually has a really good time against a lot of characters when they're in the air, but with Kirby you need to be more patient and NOT swing a lot of airials. He can come down with the down-b stone and the Up-b cutter, both actually works even though they seem like a first-day-smash technique. With the stone he can chose to get out of it at different timings, sometimes all the way down, sometimes cancel it mid-air. I like to try to see his patters and bait it out and go for a quick fair. If he goes all the way down, you usually have more time to react, so you can just run in and fair. The cutter is a bit tricky, he'll most likely use it if he got space to do so. You need to be aware if he's going land on the ground, a platform, or on to the ledge. I think if you react quick enough you can run under with an U-smash, or maybe a full jump over the cutter and fair.
The edgeguarding seems difficult for both characters, Olimar can just keep Up-b-ing at different timings if Kirby tries to bair, if you low and up-b I think Kirby got a solid option with down angled F-smash, so be aware of that. On the other side Kirby has such a great recovery so you can't really edgeguard him well. I guess you can try to get positional advantage by trying to make him go high. You can also sometimes try to read with a fair, if it hits he's most likely dead. If he goes low, you can dair, and sometimes or F-smash and maybe D-smash, that's probably the easiest edgeguard.
I think that the strong pikmins are good in this match-up. White is probably bad, since Kirby's so small. Purple is always good, red is great and blue can be good when he's on high %. Yellow can be good as well, giving you more spacing advantage.
When it comes to stages I'd pick a medium stage, a stage with small blastzones is probably best for Kirby. I don't know about a large stage, maybe it's the best, especially if your more campy/slow paced player. Lastly this match-up is probably 60-40 in Olimars favor, after playing many games.
I played against TDX's Mario as well. I feel like this is a bad matchup for Olimar, but still definitely doable. The advantages Olimar has is his disjoints and speed. Both characters got good combo game, Mario's combo game out of grab is particularly scary, he even got chain grabs at low %. Mario can obviously cape pikmins, watch out for caped purple and white. Mario also has good crouch cancel, so he CC d-smash if you're too reckless with your approaches. Fireball camp can be difficult to deal with. If you want you camp as well with side-b, full jump side be will him Mario but fireballs have less range. Another options is to watch the timing and bounces of the fireballs and try to run through nair, really good if you succeed with it. Both characters actually got a good edgeguard game on each other. You should NEVER go low against Mario, because of cape, it's really easy edgeguard and really free. If you're going low your only option is to airdodge, and I guess it could be a mix-up at times if the Mario player is expecting an up-b and tries to cape. Going high is not good either, but at least not terrible, since Mario got his huge fair that kills quite early. You have to really tricky with your recovery game in this matchup. On the other side, Olimar can edgeguard Mario quite decently. If he goes low f-smash is really good, d-smash can be good to beat out up-b. If he does the down-b to gain hight it's just to and hit him out of it. If he goes high it's way harder, he can fireball to cover his landing. Airials are ok I guess but it's not easy. Speaking of edgeguard, I don't know if people knows this but you Marth-killer Mario. Shield against the ledge and Marth-killer him. One thing however is that unlike Marth, Mario's up-b has very low landing lag so you'll have little time to punish it. Dair is probably good if you got the time, otherwise bair or fair or get up grab might be the best. I haven't got this against an actual opponent, but lot's of times against cpu's so I don't know how viable this is.
When it comes to pikmin I'm not sure whats the best, purple and white could be reflected and that's annoying. Yellow might be good since it has good fram data, blue is also very good I guess. And stages I don't know either, maybe a stage with small blast zones since Mario got such a good KO options anyway and also good camp. It's a tough matchup but definitely doable, I'd say 60-40 in Marios favor, I talked about this with TDX and that's the ratio he though it was as well.
For some reason there were like 4 Olimar players at Beast 6, so I played the ditto a lot, especially against a player from Netherlands called GIL.
This matchup is.. I don't what to say, pretty messy and janky at times, and also confusing. Against some people who don't know Olimar you can catch them of guard with a purple side-b leading into a combo or white or blue, but it's literally never going to happen in the ditto since you both know the character so well.
In neutral you can dash dance a lot, and occasionally throw a side-b. On of the best thing in this matchup seems to be the fair, it just crushes through all pikmins, and does great damage as well as have follow-up potential. Purple is obviously really good since it goes through every pikmin I think, but maybe loses to fair, maybe also to shield but more so fair since shielding with purple isen't the best. You want to punish good and have Olimar in the air since Olimar has better priority above him than below him. Landing strong moves also seems crucial, since they can give you stage control and even set up for an edgeguard. Speaking of edgeguards, they are pretty free. Olimars recovery is not that good, and is really easy to deal with. If he goes low, D-smash is really good, also dair and f-smash works well. If he goes high, fair and bair seems good. If you're recovering you could try to go low trying to make them commit to a D-smash (if they are lazy) and then try to get hit with the back part of the D-smash, since it's weaker and you'll probably make it back on stage from it. Even though you might think that the matchup should be slow, it's actually quite fast-paced and at times volatile and requires lot of focus. I'd done multiple of comebacks where I was on my last stock and GIL had 2 fresh stocks, I manage to get a good combo and even the stocks. The timing of airials seems also be a big thing in his matchup since Olimars airials are so strong, if you take the hit or not can be crucial at times, especially when your coming down from above or wise-versa, the opponent is coming down from above. Crouch Cancel can also work wounders if used at the right time, something GIL was good at when I played him.
When it comes to pikmins, I'm not sure whats best, purple is good . Blue can also be good, but it's definitely harder to get the grab since the other player sees you got "the grab pikmin". You could probably mind-game them trying to bait a grab with blue and then go in with a fair or something, could be a thing. Yellow can be really clutch at times as well. Sometimes you can try to mind-game using a pikmin differently the what you'd expect, like airial with blue and white, run up shield with purple and so on, could work at times as a mind-game. All in all it's a pretty fun and interesting matchup, I think that good option select/reads, punish game and stage control is what you should look for in this matchup.
I played a Samus and this matchup seems rough for Samus. side-b seems to nullify all her projectiles and can even latch on to her dealing damage. F-smashes are also good, and Samus can't punish them so well it seems. Olimars airials are strong and can beat croouch cancel at times, and Samus is very easy to juggle and have a hard times coming down from above. Grabs are also really good against Samus, and can lead into a huge combo. Finally our edgeguard game superb against Samus, f-smash can clip tether, and grab ledge bair is also good. Samus up-b is easily punished with D-smash and fair. I feel like I was better than the Samus I played but I still think that it's a tough matchup for Samus. the things you want to avoid are her strong airials, since Olimar is so light. I also think dash attack can go through pikmins, maybe even purple, so watch out for that. I think Samus can do better if she has good stage control, since she can trow out projectiles easier in that case. If you're recovering against Samus, you can go high but try to be tricky, so that she don't know if she should do a b-air or a n-air, or something else. I think a low recovery could easily get F-smashed or even u-tilted if not sweet-spotted.
Pikmins that are good I think are purples, they can tank a lot of projectiles as well as beat CC with airials and sometimes purple side-b can start a combo. White might not be that good, since they die out of a single missile or even a nair. Blue could be good as well and red too. I don't know about yellow, maybe good since it has range as well as lighting attribute. I think you'd want to avoid small stages, since Samus is pretty strong. Big stages seems better, and stages without platforms might be Olimars best stages in this MU, FD is probably best. If Samus can't spam missiles, and Olimars camping beat out hers then you clearly have an advantage. Probably a 65-35 MU in Olimars favor.
:I played against Can~D. I really don't know how to handle this MU, it's supposed to be really in Olimars favor, but Bowser is scary with all the tricks, and he can kill you in a few hits. Long stages are definitely your go-to stages, Bowser can get great movement on platform stages such as Battlefield, Warioland and Yoshis (melee). Watch out for the Flame Breath, DO NOT DI IN, you'll only take more damage. I tried to DI out and roll behind, it worked once but I couldn't do it more times, might be good if you can react to it. Edgeguarding is definitely something Olimar excels at, but whach out if the Bowser is good he can trick be tricky with his recovery. Sometimes do a really perfect sweet-spot, other times do the Down B to ledge, and some times go high or medium high. On bigger stages you can definetly play slowly, and Can~D played the match-up quite slowly and carefully until he got an opening/advantagous position. Bowser can also edgeuard very well so be good at mixing up your recovery, and watch out for the ledge jump bair, excellent for covering high recovery. I think this matchup could be really good once you know the tricks and mixups Bowser has. Because Olimar got a better neutral game, he is faster, got great projectiles, great spacing, fast moves, great grab and good edgeguard. So if you outplay him in the neutral, avoid Bowsers strong hits and edgeguards you should probably be fine.
Even though I played some Falcons, I'm not entirely sure what do in this matchup. More specifically what to do against a "swingy" CF and a "dash dance campy" CF. CF got great moves to combat Olimars zooning/spacing. Funny enough when I play against CF's I feel like they got a good control of the pace of the mach but misses lot's of airials, but I didn't get how to punish them. The things I found out are that edgeguards are super free. Just throw all pikmins off stage and they should be dead if they recover low. D-smash works well at times, and also bairs. If he goes high then fair or u-air can be a good choice. I think you have to have a solid punish game in this matchup, and get good u-air juggles and great punish out of grabs, and in best case lead that into an edgeguard. One thing is that even though Falcon got great punish game, Olimar seems somewhat to floaty for Falcon to finish with the knee, which definetly is an advantage. The downside however is that even if he doesn't finish the combo, it still is a tough for Olimar being high in the air from u-air juggles. I think you should recover low, Falcon can cover high recoveries with knee or u-air, so that might be better. Especially if the Falcon holds ledge to edgeguard, and mix up sweetspoting and landing on stage with up-b.
I don't know what pikmins are good in this matchup but I think whites bad, and purple might be really good if it out-prioritises nairs, then you start a combo out of it. When it comes to stages, I think most people know that Falcons like long stages where they can dash dance all day, so a small stage like Warioland is probably better so you can corner them This matchup might be even or an advantage for Olimar if you got a great punish game.
I played against Zen's zard and DW's zard, here's what I got. Weirdly enough it seems like or moves beat Zards a lot of the time, like fair and nair. Probably because Zard is so big, so he get hit easily. What I discovered that nair combos are super good in this matchup. You want to combo zard as hard as possible so you can rack up the damage and then try to find a KO move. When I played against Zen I really had hard time, mostly because he's a better player the me, but I had a better fight against DW. DW said that Olimars dash dance camp was quite annoying/scary, and that the punish game was scary, how Olimar could get so much damage out of one hit confirm. I noticed on the other hand that Zard has a really good time when he got space to position himself and space out moves well. The flame tip on his tail can really hurt at times, but if he doesn't hit with it, his airials aren't that strong and I could combo break with a fair or nair at times. Zard can also cover space above himself really well. His up-smash is enormous and really safe if he is below a platform you're standing on. But if tries to Up-smash or up-tilt, I think shield drop nair is super good counter, but it's pretty hard to do but theoretically it could be really good, and make the Zard respect you more on platforms. I think grabs also are good in this matchup if you get them, they can lead into a great combo with more nairs since Olimars grab punishes are so strong. You also want to watch out for the flamethrower jank and not DI in, similar to Bowser but I think Zards is worse than Bowsers. One thing in this matchup that still is a question mark is the edgeguards. I have no clue how to edgeguard Zard, he got such good recovery. If he goes low maybe f-smash or d-smash. But the problem is his down-b flight, he can change direction any time and airial out of it. Maybe wait and try to get an u-smash, or try to keep a good stage control, and from there trying to get a fair close to the ledge to finish him off.
I'm not sure what pikmins are good in this matchup, maybe white since they're so easy to hit. At late % I think blue is super good. Purple is always good, but yellow could be good, gaining some space and speed against Zard. I think that you should avoid stages with big blastzones at all cost in this matchup. I'm not sure wether a small stage or big stage is good in this matchup. A big stage might be better, even though Zard got a good dash dance and run speed, I think his coverage outshines that, so Zard might do better on a small stage. I don't know the ratio in this MU but I think it could be slightly in Zards favor or maybe even.
I played a lot against a Kirby player from Netherlands called TDX. I feel like this is a good matchup for Olimar. Olimar has good disjoints and strong attacks both for racking up damage and KOing. I used a lot of airials, mostly fair, to wall Kirby out, sometimes went in with a nair to catch him off guard. Nair can combo really well so, thats really good, can combo into a fair for damage or as a KO move. If you want you can camp as well with side B, or dash dance camp, it works as well.
Some things to keep in mind/avoid in this matchup are: First of: Combos. Kirby has a pretty solid combo game, and if you have good DI and SDI, you can avoid his main way of racking up damage. You can SDI his fair behind him leaving him hard to follow up from that, and completely ruins his edgeguard if goes for that as an edgeguard option. He might be able to drift back to cover that SDI, but be aware of that and SDI differently in that case.
Secondly: approaches. Not really avoid but be aware of. Kirby can approaches with dash attack and horizonal side-B, and if he lands behind you, which he often is looking for, he can imitatively start pressuring with up-tilts, which can start a combo with up-tilt > upairs stuff. I'm not sure if you can nair OOS after an up-titlt. Maybe use roll or wave dash oos to get out of that uncomfortable situation. You want to be aware of that Kirby has some tricks with dash attacks down from platforms, which can be used as an approach option.
Thirdly: Grabs. Kirby has a great tech chase game out of D-throw, and if he gets a good read or reset, he can hammer which is a strong KO option. I did a good job mixing up techs leaving him a hard time guessing. Probably a bad thing to tech in place, since I could see that a lot of Kirby's might cover that option first with jab or hammer, similar to Falcons trying to read tech in place with knee.
Fourth: Ways Kirby can get down from the air. Olimar usually has a really good time against a lot of characters when they're in the air, but with Kirby you need to be more patient and NOT swing a lot of airials. He can come down with the down-b stone and the Up-b cutter, both actually works even though they seem like a first-day-smash technique. With the stone he can chose to get out of it at different timings, sometimes all the way down, sometimes cancel it mid-air. I like to try to see his patters and bait it out and go for a quick fair. If he goes all the way down, you usually have more time to react, so you can just run in and fair. The cutter is a bit tricky, he'll most likely use it if he got space to do so. You need to be aware if he's going land on the ground, a platform, or on to the ledge. I think if you react quick enough you can run under with an U-smash, or maybe a full jump over the cutter and fair.
The edgeguarding seems difficult for both characters, Olimar can just keep Up-b-ing at different timings if Kirby tries to bair, if you low and up-b I think Kirby got a solid option with down angled F-smash, so be aware of that. On the other side Kirby has such a great recovery so you can't really edgeguard him well. I guess you can try to get positional advantage by trying to make him go high. You can also sometimes try to read with a fair, if it hits he's most likely dead. If he goes low, you can dair, and sometimes or F-smash and maybe D-smash, that's probably the easiest edgeguard.
I think that the strong pikmins are good in this match-up. White is probably bad, since Kirby's so small. Purple is always good, red is great and blue can be good when he's on high %. Yellow can be good as well, giving you more spacing advantage.
When it comes to stages I'd pick a medium stage, a stage with small blastzones is probably best for Kirby. I don't know about a large stage, maybe it's the best, especially if your more campy/slow paced player. Lastly this match-up is probably 60-40 in Olimars favor, after playing many games.
I played against TDX's Mario as well. I feel like this is a bad matchup for Olimar, but still definitely doable. The advantages Olimar has is his disjoints and speed. Both characters got good combo game, Mario's combo game out of grab is particularly scary, he even got chain grabs at low %. Mario can obviously cape pikmins, watch out for caped purple and white. Mario also has good crouch cancel, so he CC d-smash if you're too reckless with your approaches. Fireball camp can be difficult to deal with. If you want you camp as well with side-b, full jump side be will him Mario but fireballs have less range. Another options is to watch the timing and bounces of the fireballs and try to run through nair, really good if you succeed with it. Both characters actually got a good edgeguard game on each other. You should NEVER go low against Mario, because of cape, it's really easy edgeguard and really free. If you're going low your only option is to airdodge, and I guess it could be a mix-up at times if the Mario player is expecting an up-b and tries to cape. Going high is not good either, but at least not terrible, since Mario got his huge fair that kills quite early. You have to really tricky with your recovery game in this matchup. On the other side, Olimar can edgeguard Mario quite decently. If he goes low f-smash is really good, d-smash can be good to beat out up-b. If he does the down-b to gain hight it's just to and hit him out of it. If he goes high it's way harder, he can fireball to cover his landing. Airials are ok I guess but it's not easy. Speaking of edgeguard, I don't know if people knows this but you Marth-killer Mario. Shield against the ledge and Marth-killer him. One thing however is that unlike Marth, Mario's up-b has very low landing lag so you'll have little time to punish it. Dair is probably good if you got the time, otherwise bair or fair or get up grab might be the best. I haven't got this against an actual opponent, but lot's of times against cpu's so I don't know how viable this is.
When it comes to pikmin I'm not sure whats the best, purple and white could be reflected and that's annoying. Yellow might be good since it has good fram data, blue is also very good I guess. And stages I don't know either, maybe a stage with small blast zones since Mario got such a good KO options anyway and also good camp. It's a tough matchup but definitely doable, I'd say 60-40 in Marios favor, I talked about this with TDX and that's the ratio he though it was as well.
For some reason there were like 4 Olimar players at Beast 6, so I played the ditto a lot, especially against a player from Netherlands called GIL.
This matchup is.. I don't what to say, pretty messy and janky at times, and also confusing. Against some people who don't know Olimar you can catch them of guard with a purple side-b leading into a combo or white or blue, but it's literally never going to happen in the ditto since you both know the character so well.
In neutral you can dash dance a lot, and occasionally throw a side-b. On of the best thing in this matchup seems to be the fair, it just crushes through all pikmins, and does great damage as well as have follow-up potential. Purple is obviously really good since it goes through every pikmin I think, but maybe loses to fair, maybe also to shield but more so fair since shielding with purple isen't the best. You want to punish good and have Olimar in the air since Olimar has better priority above him than below him. Landing strong moves also seems crucial, since they can give you stage control and even set up for an edgeguard. Speaking of edgeguards, they are pretty free. Olimars recovery is not that good, and is really easy to deal with. If he goes low, D-smash is really good, also dair and f-smash works well. If he goes high, fair and bair seems good. If you're recovering you could try to go low trying to make them commit to a D-smash (if they are lazy) and then try to get hit with the back part of the D-smash, since it's weaker and you'll probably make it back on stage from it. Even though you might think that the matchup should be slow, it's actually quite fast-paced and at times volatile and requires lot of focus. I'd done multiple of comebacks where I was on my last stock and GIL had 2 fresh stocks, I manage to get a good combo and even the stocks. The timing of airials seems also be a big thing in his matchup since Olimars airials are so strong, if you take the hit or not can be crucial at times, especially when your coming down from above or wise-versa, the opponent is coming down from above. Crouch Cancel can also work wounders if used at the right time, something GIL was good at when I played him.
When it comes to pikmins, I'm not sure whats best, purple is good . Blue can also be good, but it's definitely harder to get the grab since the other player sees you got "the grab pikmin". You could probably mind-game them trying to bait a grab with blue and then go in with a fair or something, could be a thing. Yellow can be really clutch at times as well. Sometimes you can try to mind-game using a pikmin differently the what you'd expect, like airial with blue and white, run up shield with purple and so on, could work at times as a mind-game. All in all it's a pretty fun and interesting matchup, I think that good option select/reads, punish game and stage control is what you should look for in this matchup.
I played a Samus and this matchup seems rough for Samus. side-b seems to nullify all her projectiles and can even latch on to her dealing damage. F-smashes are also good, and Samus can't punish them so well it seems. Olimars airials are strong and can beat croouch cancel at times, and Samus is very easy to juggle and have a hard times coming down from above. Grabs are also really good against Samus, and can lead into a huge combo. Finally our edgeguard game superb against Samus, f-smash can clip tether, and grab ledge bair is also good. Samus up-b is easily punished with D-smash and fair. I feel like I was better than the Samus I played but I still think that it's a tough matchup for Samus. the things you want to avoid are her strong airials, since Olimar is so light. I also think dash attack can go through pikmins, maybe even purple, so watch out for that. I think Samus can do better if she has good stage control, since she can trow out projectiles easier in that case. If you're recovering against Samus, you can go high but try to be tricky, so that she don't know if she should do a b-air or a n-air, or something else. I think a low recovery could easily get F-smashed or even u-tilted if not sweet-spotted.
Pikmins that are good I think are purples, they can tank a lot of projectiles as well as beat CC with airials and sometimes purple side-b can start a combo. White might not be that good, since they die out of a single missile or even a nair. Blue could be good as well and red too. I don't know about yellow, maybe good since it has range as well as lighting attribute. I think you'd want to avoid small stages, since Samus is pretty strong. Big stages seems better, and stages without platforms might be Olimars best stages in this MU, FD is probably best. If Samus can't spam missiles, and Olimars camping beat out hers then you clearly have an advantage. Probably a 65-35 MU in Olimars favor.
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Tobb99
Smash Apprentice
More stuff on Olimar, Charizard and Captain Falcon MU I found out in the lab.
Olimar:
The best ways of getting rid of pikmins (side-b) are fair, jab and u-tilt. Jab alone can remove all pikmins it seems, and so can fair. Jab can sometimes not get rid of all pikmins, but still it doesn't make it less of an excellent option. The thing with fair is that not only does it removes all pikmins but it also often kills them as well, so if you approach with fair and your opponent is throwing a lot of pikmins you might kill like 2-3 of his pikmins and if you're close to him it might leave him in a tough spot with only 1 pikmin maybe. One important thing to know is that nair doesn't work well in removing pikmins, you need like 2 nairs to remove pikmins making it really bad at it. Bair is also good, similar to fair, but still slightly worse than fair it seems. This might make side-b pretty useless in the MU since you not only can remove pikmins easily but also kill them.
Captain Falcon:
He can easily get rid of pikmins with all his airials except uair. But if he has one on himself and tries to raptor boost (side-b) it can trigger on the pikmin rather than going further. So if he tries to do a grounded side-b, it could just attack the pikmin directly, not moving forward at all, leaving him open for a punish. If he tries to recover with side-b with a pikmin on it can also trigger the attack leaving him also open for an easy punish.
Charizard:
Zard doesn't have good option OOS options against Olimar. Against most characters, nair is a superb options since it's quite fast and start from behind, but the thing is that Olimar is too small to get hit by it if he's on the ground. He can hit with nair but you have to time it perfectly, and same thing goes for bair, it hits too high up and bair is slower as well. One good option he has is U-smash OOS, but it only works if Olimar is really close since it hits mostly above him. If Olimar is in front of him fair can work, but it's slow and also hard to hit with. Grab obviously works, un Up-b OOS works but it's super risky, you can CC it or shield it and punish after, I even think it's even if the Zard tries to edgecancel it or land on the ledge with it. you can also CC all Zards OOS options pretty wel except grab, it obviously depends on percent, but CC is still strong.
I also tested his options of removing pikmins, and they aren't that good either. Jab doesn't work a lot of the times, which means he has to remove them with f-tilt or u-tilt or u-air, all being very committal. All of his airials rarely works either except u-air. This probably makes white very strong since he has to remove it with a f-tilt or u-tilt or u-air, and then you can easily punish it with a grab or nair or u-air or something.
And yet again I want to mention that nair combos are really good, Zard is big and therefore easy to hit.
Olimar:
The best ways of getting rid of pikmins (side-b) are fair, jab and u-tilt. Jab alone can remove all pikmins it seems, and so can fair. Jab can sometimes not get rid of all pikmins, but still it doesn't make it less of an excellent option. The thing with fair is that not only does it removes all pikmins but it also often kills them as well, so if you approach with fair and your opponent is throwing a lot of pikmins you might kill like 2-3 of his pikmins and if you're close to him it might leave him in a tough spot with only 1 pikmin maybe. One important thing to know is that nair doesn't work well in removing pikmins, you need like 2 nairs to remove pikmins making it really bad at it. Bair is also good, similar to fair, but still slightly worse than fair it seems. This might make side-b pretty useless in the MU since you not only can remove pikmins easily but also kill them.
Captain Falcon:
He can easily get rid of pikmins with all his airials except uair. But if he has one on himself and tries to raptor boost (side-b) it can trigger on the pikmin rather than going further. So if he tries to do a grounded side-b, it could just attack the pikmin directly, not moving forward at all, leaving him open for a punish. If he tries to recover with side-b with a pikmin on it can also trigger the attack leaving him also open for an easy punish.
Charizard:
Zard doesn't have good option OOS options against Olimar. Against most characters, nair is a superb options since it's quite fast and start from behind, but the thing is that Olimar is too small to get hit by it if he's on the ground. He can hit with nair but you have to time it perfectly, and same thing goes for bair, it hits too high up and bair is slower as well. One good option he has is U-smash OOS, but it only works if Olimar is really close since it hits mostly above him. If Olimar is in front of him fair can work, but it's slow and also hard to hit with. Grab obviously works, un Up-b OOS works but it's super risky, you can CC it or shield it and punish after, I even think it's even if the Zard tries to edgecancel it or land on the ledge with it. you can also CC all Zards OOS options pretty wel except grab, it obviously depends on percent, but CC is still strong.
I also tested his options of removing pikmins, and they aren't that good either. Jab doesn't work a lot of the times, which means he has to remove them with f-tilt or u-tilt or u-air, all being very committal. All of his airials rarely works either except u-air. This probably makes white very strong since he has to remove it with a f-tilt or u-tilt or u-air, and then you can easily punish it with a grab or nair or u-air or something.
And yet again I want to mention that nair combos are really good, Zard is big and therefore easy to hit.
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Tobb99
Smash Apprentice
I've probably expressed these opinions on other threads, but I'm going to post them here anyways.
I'm not sure about this one. But it might be even or in ROB's favor.
Pretty sure this one is in Olimar's favor, +1.
I haven't played this MU that much, and when I've played it I have been better than my opponent. But I feel like this could be favorable for Olimar. Olimar got better camp than Samus and great juggles and edgeguard ability. I'd say +1.
I'm not sure if this is a favorable MU for Olimar. It seems rather anoying with PK Fires being triggered on Side-B and F-smash, Magnet and F-air also removes all pikmins on Ness. But on the other hand, Ness can't combo Olimar that well if you have good DI and SDI. This one maybe is an even MU 0.
Otherwise it seems pretty fine.
I'm not sure about this one. But it might be even or in ROB's favor. Pretty sure this one is in Olimar's favor, +1. I haven't played this MU that much, and when I've played it I have been better than my opponent. But I feel like this could be favorable for Olimar. Olimar got better camp than Samus and great juggles and edgeguard ability. I'd say +1. I'm not sure if this is a favorable MU for Olimar. It seems rather anoying with PK Fires being triggered on Side-B and F-smash, Magnet and F-air also removes all pikmins on Ness. But on the other hand, Ness can't combo Olimar that well if you have good DI and SDI. This one maybe is an even MU 0.Otherwise it seems pretty fine.
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steelguttey
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this is the matchup spread i made most recently. if you want numbers good is probably 55-45 or 60-40, pretty good is like 65-35 or 70-30 and vice versa for bad and pretty bad. i think oli has a whole lotta even matchups, with a ton of good characters (wario, luigi, peach, diddy, roy, gnw, falcon, tink, lucario, snake).
matchups that i can see getting better are wario, gnw, tink, lucario, wolf, sheik, ness, ike, ivy, lucas, zss and falco. more specifically falco, i would move him down to "bad" but im too lazy to make a new one
matchups i can see getting worse are link, zard, kirby, falcon, squirtle, sonic and mario
this is a chart thats slightly edited that i originally made. my opinions changed quite a bit (above)Matchup from
+3:
+2:
+1:
0:
-1:
-2:
-3:
?:
What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate? What about the unknown matchups?
Not my opinion. This is for updating the (outdated) community matchup chart.
Tobb99
Smash Apprentice
What do think about Samus Steelguttey?? Also, didn't Ike and Ivy used to be his worst Matchups??
steelguttey
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samus oli is samus' favor but possibly even. samus can outspam us and control more space and shes better upclose. our combos dont go long at all on her because shes floaty and heavy. we cant do much in terms of edgeguarding her either because we dont have alot of good options of beating down b stalling and her up b beats fsmash. pikmin beat side b and neutral b which is pretty hilarious but they're really fast so its hard to react to.
i used to think ike is one of our worst matchups because of his huge range and tech roll followups since our tech roll is so bad. its in his favor but his moves are so slow and qd is so linear that he cant use it in neutral without getting stuffed by fsmash. fsmash is longer than all of his followups off of qd, the only option he has of beating it is jumping over but we can react to that and he has to predict an fsmash or we can just anti air him. purples beat him out really well too, and oli can edgeguard his horizontal recovery with fsmashes. i think it has a really good potential of being even.
ivy-oli i overrated for a really long time off of theory alone because of ivy's neutral b's windbox effect on pikmin, but after some labbing i found that pikmin arent in a hitstun state after getting shot by windboxes theyre just in a neutral state, so that means you can whistle em back if you're fast enough. and what seperates ivy getting pikmin off with any other character gretting pikmin off? in fact, ivy's nair is probably a better option anyways. synthesis has no hitbox other than the windbox, forces her to commit to a jump because the grounded version is so laggy, and even if she land cancels it she has to commit to a whole (empty) jump first. ivy outranges us on most moves but yellow flowered bair beats her bair, yellows are really good in that mu. its probably even at this point and i can see it going positive
i used to think ike is one of our worst matchups because of his huge range and tech roll followups since our tech roll is so bad. its in his favor but his moves are so slow and qd is so linear that he cant use it in neutral without getting stuffed by fsmash. fsmash is longer than all of his followups off of qd, the only option he has of beating it is jumping over but we can react to that and he has to predict an fsmash or we can just anti air him. purples beat him out really well too, and oli can edgeguard his horizontal recovery with fsmashes. i think it has a really good potential of being even.
ivy-oli i overrated for a really long time off of theory alone because of ivy's neutral b's windbox effect on pikmin, but after some labbing i found that pikmin arent in a hitstun state after getting shot by windboxes theyre just in a neutral state, so that means you can whistle em back if you're fast enough. and what seperates ivy getting pikmin off with any other character gretting pikmin off? in fact, ivy's nair is probably a better option anyways. synthesis has no hitbox other than the windbox, forces her to commit to a jump because the grounded version is so laggy, and even if she land cancels it she has to commit to a whole (empty) jump first. ivy outranges us on most moves but yellow flowered bair beats her bair, yellows are really good in that mu. its probably even at this point and i can see it going positive
Tobb99
Smash Apprentice
Samus:
On edgeguarding Samus: Isen't F-smash good, since it can clip teather? I can understand that you can't really do anything about bomb-recovery so I guess you have to wait for her to get close to the stage, maybe a Side-B snipe a bomb, but that's about it. But the Up-B should be quite easy to edgeguard I feel, either with D-smash or with Airial (Fair,Bair or Dair). With Up-B beats F-smash, do you mean late F-smash falling down off the stage, or just early F-smash (the strong hit)? Also she can obviously go high as well, then you'll have to try to juggle/fram trap her I guess, or try to get a strong hit airial or U-smash.
Haven't met a good spammy Samus, but if it's true that her spam beat our, then it's trouble. And spamming Side-B doesn't work? I mean if you miss a missile you can always shield and EVEN crouch under Super-missiles. Pikmins lying on the ground being thrown can also block charge shot as well, the higher charge the easier.
On edgeguarding Samus: Isen't F-smash good, since it can clip teather? I can understand that you can't really do anything about bomb-recovery so I guess you have to wait for her to get close to the stage, maybe a Side-B snipe a bomb, but that's about it. But the Up-B should be quite easy to edgeguard I feel, either with D-smash or with Airial (Fair,Bair or Dair). With Up-B beats F-smash, do you mean late F-smash falling down off the stage, or just early F-smash (the strong hit)? Also she can obviously go high as well, then you'll have to try to juggle/fram trap her I guess, or try to get a strong hit airial or U-smash.
Haven't met a good spammy Samus, but if it's true that her spam beat our, then it's trouble. And spamming Side-B doesn't work? I mean if you miss a missile you can always shield and EVEN crouch under Super-missiles. Pikmins lying on the ground being thrown can also block charge shot as well, the higher charge the easier.
steelguttey
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fsmash can clip the tether but the samus should never tether anyway since we cant edgeguard up-b well. we dont have anything that covers up b sweetspot other than grabbing ledge and then you let them get a tether. the early hit of fsmash beats samus up b but that'll only hit if they cant sweetspot well.
spamming side b works but like i said its hard to do beause samus missiles go so fast that she can win the projectile battle eventualy.
spamming side b works but like i said its hard to do beause samus missiles go so fast that she can win the projectile battle eventualy.
steelguttey
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revised my mu chart
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Tobb99
Smash Apprentice
So Kirby and Captain Falcon are even. Thought those MU's were in Olimar's favor.
Dotcom
Smash Lord
TO be fair that's his situation in regards to most characters. Olimar is easily edgeguarded, that's his caveat. However ~80 of the game will be played on stage where Olimar has plenty of options to fight back with.
Considering most kills come off the top, and Kirby's weight, the kill potential is about even.