Olimar Changes in 3.5 and What This Means For You

[steelguttey]

the conditions arent ****ty, just suboptimal.

trust me you'll be sticking with him ;^)

 

[nimigoha]

So I'm certain this has been thought of before.

But what if Olimar could only pluck Pikmin he didn't have?

That way you're not guaranteed a set order but you can narrow down the chance of you getting what you want to 50% (if you have 3 there are 2 options).

This would completely stop multiples though, which would be probably bad. Instead Olimar's Pikmin lineup would always be diverse.

 

[robosteven]

So I'm certain this has been thought of before.

But what if Olimar could only pluck Pikmin he didn't have?

That way you're not guaranteed a set order but you can narrow down the chance of you getting what you want to 50% (if you have 3 there are 2 options).

This would completely stop multiples though, which would be probably bad. Instead Olimar's Pikmin lineup would always be diverse.

This is a thought I've had before and I still support it.

 

[steelguttey]

i just cant see not being able to have 2 of the same pikmin and still having rng be a good option

 

[nimigoha]

Now that Olimar doesn't have to always have 4 Pikmin because of the recovery, he can run with 1/2/3 which makes it faster to cycle to get to a certain Pikmin.

It would also get rid of overusing certain Pikmin. Like getting loads of Yellows and getting crazy fast low knockback aerials and a crazy 0-death. The only way you could do this would be solo Yellow.

Has there been any word on grab armour? Is that something they just forgot about or is it deliberately being kept away from him by the PMDT for no reason?

 

[Ningildo]

Bruh...just wait till 3.6 before going "PMDT = Illuminati".

Cause if he doesn't has grab armor by then, I'll join you.

 

[steelguttey]

grab armor has been said by multiple pmdt members to be impossible to code

so its a no

 

[Ningildo]

Where? I've brought up oli's lack of grab armor before in tier list speculation and no pmdt member has told me it to be impossible to code (right now, anyway, as ASL has shown us, impossible atm doesn't mean forever).

 

[nimigoha]

I've never seen a PMDT member say it's impossible to code.

I refuse to believe it's impossible to code. A lot of the stuff they've done has been once regarded as 'impossible'.

If nothing else, they can give him super armour for the first few active frames of the grab.

 

[steelguttey]

its because the pikmin is grabbing, not olimar. it was in a reddit post lemme look for it

 

[nimigoha]

I searched through reddit. I couldn't find anything about a PMDT even mentioning the lack of grab armour.

Like I know why it happens. I also think that they can fix it.

 

[robosteven]

To compensate for lack of grab armor they should just make it come out three frames earlier or something (and also make it so the grab boxes don't linger for seven centuries that's not a character trait that's straight jank).

edit: even giving Oli a regular grab a la ZSS I'd prefer over not having grab armor (even though it'd be way worse not because of application but because everyone would be upsetti spaghetti over it, again, a la ZSS).

 

[UltiMario]

They honestly could just like double the animation speed of Oli's grab and that'd be a pretty nice trade-off. Huge range, fast, but it doesn't linger and grab people like half a second into the animation anymore. Having your grab come out like 5 frames earlier also helps the grab armor thing a bit.

 

[robosteven]

tbh Smash 4 actually got Oli's grab right. Like all of the tethers, it goes the full distance within a few frames, and is moderately laggy. It's actually kinda frustrating to see someone be the perfect distance away for a grab, press z, and whoops hurr durr Pikmin are stumbly and didn't make it in time.

And yes, making the grab active one frame earlier and also making the grab's full distance happen one or two frames after the grab starts would completely fix the grab armor thing. Same speed as a tether grab, but one frame of leeway.

His grab is only his best option right now because it's jank ****. Please normalize.

 

[steelguttey]

i like the lingering grabbox. it gives him a unique advantage over sword characters and compensates for lag in a way.

and no, that wouldnt do anything. like ive been saying, it doesnt matter how fast or slow the grab is, the pikmin is grabbing, not olimar. so olimar wont get armor.

 

[robosteven]

what the hell man I've never disagreed with you more in one post

If I hit z as Olimar and space the grab perfectly and Marth f-smashes 100% of the time the f-smash will hit first, and probably tipper. The Pikmin doesn't reach him in time because of its slow walk speed. Meanwhile, Link's tether snaps to the character on the first active frame of grabbing because the game recognizes the grab connecting.

Lingering grab-boxes were a big complaint about Lucas's dash-grab, and that grab is laggy as sin. They changed it for the better. Olimar doesn't have nearly as much lag but get gets the lingering grab-boxes anyway? Sounds to me like a mechanic reevaluation is in order.

And how fast or slow the full-distance grab comes out is directly related to the armor thing. Grab armor is only relevant if the grab and attack trade on the exact same frame. Give Olimar's grab one less frame of startup and that changes the specific frame in which he can get hit, which is a one-frame buff. It doesn't literally give him grab-armor, but it theoretically makes it so his current-frame grab will always work when you want it to on that specific frame because there's a frame of leeway. If I had the frame data in front of me I'd use the specific numbers, but I don't so whatever.

ex: Landing a frame-7 grab on the first active frame but getting broken out of it because of a lack of grab armor would be fixed by instead having a frame-6 grab without armor. What I'm saying is that a frame-6 grab without armor and a frame-7 grab with armor are essentially the same thing.

edit: also making Pikmin run Sm4sh Oli speed would make landing well-spaced grabs easier for players who rely on precise timing (aka good players), so that would be a natural buff regardless of armor.

 

[steelguttey]

lingering hitboxes let you stuff approaches, which is what you should be spacing for. if a dumb sword character is approaching you with a fair, your pivot blue will outspace them (marth might be an exception but its not like we have anything in that mu except offstage)


its fair because there is direct tradeoffs about it. if you bait olis grab he still has huge parts of the hitboxes that are easy to approach on

no matter how fast the grab is, it still wont have armor because the pikmin is a character in itself and is doing the grab, and when you grab the opponent isnt in your hands, its in the pikmin's. why i think its gonna be hard to code (maybe impossible) is because alot of olimar mechanics rely on pikmin being characters. so if you make them not character so you can have grab armor, healthy things like pikmin dying (because you cant give a projectile a health bar), whistle calling pikmin back wouldnt work. its just not worth trying because its just way too much of a hurdle, you have to make a whole new psa.

 

[robosteven]

I'm not even arguing for armor, I'm arguing for adjusting the grab so that armor becomes a non-issue.

Plus, dumb move decisions other players make are irrelevant in regards to move-design. If your character has a move that comes out faster than Oli's grab at full-distance and you're spacing that move correctly you should never get grabbed because the grab doesn't come out fast enough to counter shield pressure. Lingering grab-boxes combined with distance are the only good thing about Olimar's grab and I will argue that it's not good design until the end of time.

 

[steelguttey]

if you get hit by anything its because you ****ed up. its not bad design, its how the character works. lingering hitboxes is a trademark olimar thin and one of his few good options.

 

[robosteven]

I guess Olimar naturally just works like trash then because his grab is not a well-designed move.

 

[steelguttey]

he works fine. yall overstate how much he sucks and honestly i would be content with a 3.5 jetpack olimar. he just is a punish character