Old-School Opponents ~ Game and Watches Match Up Thread

[SeanS]

Luigi is Mario with better zoning, a better throw game, and a luck-based recovery. I've played plenty of skilled Luigi players, and although I've won a good deal of my matches in this MU, I'm not really that confident on giving a rating to him yet because I haven't really developed much of a strategy for dealing with Luigi's somewhat predictable offstage game, his throws, and a myriad of finer points in the MU. 50-50 until further notice.

 

[FrameImperfect]

This is one of my favorite matchups since I main one and pocket play the other.

50-50

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

No offense, but have any of you even played a real Mario main? One that takes top at tournies consistently? He will combo string you to 40-50 no problem. No, Up-B will NOT save you if they space correctly and use the correct move. Nair or D-air will break every single aerial you have, outside of d-air which is awful anywhere you plant the key anyways. Nair will stop any early d-throw combos to prevent racking damage. Mario can ride your jab til he can out range it with an f-smash. D-air will link to f-smash for kills near 90. The only saving grace that keeps this from being completely one sided is G&W's recovery being far superior. In the end, Mario is in every way quicker, stronger, and more ranged than Mr. G&W.

60/40 Mario's favor.

Luigi is even worse. He doesn't have as many options as Mario, but his work far better. Forget about d-throw combos, nair will break those. Fire ball and b-air will both link into grab, which over 75-80 damage is death every time. D-throw --> down-B literally breaks this match up, as it is unavoidable death. Being that we're so light, I argue this is far worse than Diddy's Hoo-hah. Pair all that with Luigi's much better recovery than Mario, and you have one hell of a green nightmare.

70/30 Luigi.

 

[A2ZOMG]

No offense, but have any of you even played a real Mario main? One that takes top at tournies consistently? He will combo string you to 40-50 no problem. No, Up-B will NOT save you if they space correctly and use the correct move. Nair or D-air will break every single aerial you have, outside of d-air which is awful anywhere you plant the key anyways. Nair will stop any early d-throw combos to prevent racking damage. Mario can ride your jab til he can out range it with an f-smash. D-air will link to f-smash for kills near 90. The only saving grace that keeps this from being completely one sided is G&W's recovery being far superior. In the end, Mario is in every way quicker, stronger, and more ranged than Mr. G&W.

60/40 Mario's favor.

Luigi is even worse. He doesn't have as many options as Mario, but his work far better. Forget about d-throw combos, nair will break those. Fire ball and b-air will both link into grab, which over 75-80 damage is death every time. D-throw --> down-B literally breaks this match up, as it is unavoidable death. Being that we're so light, I argue this is far worse than Diddy's Hoo-hah. Pair all that with Luigi's much better recovery than Mario, and you have one hell of a green nightmare.

70/30 Luigi.

Mario is my second most played character in this game, and I disagree with basically everything you said.

Firstoff, everyone else is correct in that you can Up-B out of the vast majority of Mario's combo strings except at extremely narrow percent ranges. This isn't up for debate, you really just have faulty experience.

The fact Mario has to respect D-air makes it really easy for G&W to reset to neutral in this matchup when Mario does not have an easy way of spacing around it and pressuring G&W simultaneously. He CANNOT follow you in the air when you have D-air ready. It's also extremely difficult for him to beat D-air with U-smash, as it effectively requires frame perfect timing.

Also you clearly don't understand optimal D-throw combos. At 0, D-throw Jab does about 13%. After that you can D-throw U-tilt, and D-throw N-air at higher percents just fine. U-smashing when Mario is above you also covers a lot of options and timed correctly can hit him for trying to mix up aerials or airdodge.

Mario basically shouldn't be hitting you with D-air in this matchup for the most part. G&W can space that nonsense out easily with basically anything, including U-smash which has invincibility frames starting frame 4. And yes, he technically has a gimmick combo where if THE STARS ALIGN and he connects the grounded D-air hitbox on you perfectly, this can theoretically link to F-smash.

Combine superior edgeguards from G&W, the matchup is definitely in his favor.

Luigi is pretty dumb to play against but I don't think G&W does bad against him. Even though he's a train wreck character when he gets in and can output damage like a madman, you can still wall him out and he's easier to juggle than Mario with the usual tools such as N-air and U-smash. Also still easily edgeguarded and gimped.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

He can nair before you can do anything out of d-throw. Maybe not exactly at 0% if you choose to follow with jab, but otherwise yes, he can. Thats without argument. Any Mario thats throwing himself in a position where d-air is a safe move is chasing way too hard leaving too much room.

U-air ---> u-air ---> up-b is not escapable.

 

[A2ZOMG]

He can nair before you can do anything out of d-throw. Maybe not exactly at 0% if you choose to follow with jab, but otherwise yes, he can. Thats without argument. Any Mario thats throwing himself in a position where d-air is a safe move is chasing way too hard leaving too much room.

U-air ---> u-air ---> up-b is not escapable.

If you're getting N-aired out of D-throw, you're REALLY just doing it wrong. G&W N-air and U-tilt beat that easy, and you have generous percent ranges where you can true combo into N-air (and U-air) out of D-throw.

U-air -> U-air -> Up-B is only inescapable if Mario manages to catch you basically exactly at like 40-50% or some really narrow percent range. I forget exactly what it is on G&W. The point is he's probably outplaying you pretty hard if he's getting it successfully when you factor how situational his combos are. For that matter, if we want to factor percent specific combos, G&W definitely has a range where he can legitimately do D-throw -> N-air -> N-air -> Up-B for about 40% or so, which is frankly better than anything Mario has.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

Go ahead and go into practice mode with someone like I just did, and tell me nair doesn't beat everything under 40%

 

[A2ZOMG]

I mean I've played against people that mash N-airs constantly...and I'm really not seeing why you're having a problem. I honestly just believe you have to optimize your combo game the way it sounds to me. At lower percent ranges when D-throw Jab stops working, you can just D-throw U-tilt. And then when he's not in position to be comboed by U-tilt, that's when you N-air. It's really not that complicated. Depending on DI you can also do stuff like F-air which also works just fine if he wants to mash.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

I'm telling you that Nair will beat anything you try to follow a d-throw with at anything under 35-40%. u-tilt, jab, nair, or fair. at best it collides, both players take damage and knockback. but thats a win for mario each time. The people you're playing either lack experience or reaction time.

in fact, he can up-b out of most of those follow ups as well.

 

[Tibbyflapps]

I too haven't had any issues with Mario's nair breaking him out of dthrow combos, but these posts aren't helping anyone, and in truth I'd be more interested in seeing the actual numbers for this. How quickly can mario pull out nair after dthrow, how does this change as percentage increases, which of G&W's moves does it beat out in priority, what angle does it hit G&W at, and at what percentages does this allow him to beat out any of G&W's given options? It'd also be useful to list every single one of G&W's options at any given point for it, not just the most popular/currently used ones.

 

[smasher1001]

Not that I have tons of mario-g&w exp, but for the exp I do I haven't felt heavily disadvantaged really. Feels closer to 50-50 imo, just my two cents.

 

[X3I]

He can nair before you can do anything out of d-throw. Maybe not exactly at 0% if you choose to follow with jab, but otherwise yes, he can. Thats without argument. Any Mario thats throwing himself in a position where d-air is a safe move is chasing way too hard leaving too much room.

U-air ---> u-air ---> up-b is not escapable.

Just tested, no he can't+G&W can Usmash it anyway.
You're saying ****.

 

[BBC7]

Bump.

Anybody else have more to say about Luigi? The more contribution, the merrier

 

[TheMiSP]

Not feeling good about this a little bit. Maybe we should just go by most popular/critical MUs or just randomly get the ball rolling on some character because somebody knows said MU.

If not, we should just put down Weegee for later. Idk anything about him.

 

[Keep2D]

I can provide some insight in this G&W/Luigi MU!
I'm a part of a Skype group with two outstanding Luigi mains, one of then known as BluebirdE, if you are interested in viewing his matches, go ahead and look them up with his tag!

I believe the matchup is in G&W's favor, both Luigi and G&W have outstanding combos, they're both Characters who rely on waiting for an approach from their opponent and capitalizing off of them, Luigi loses a major component to his spacing option in his Fireballs, as these Bucketed garuntees a KO on Luigi at 15% or higher. HOWEVER
Be vary wary of when and how you bucket these fireballs, as this leaves you in a VERY VULNERABLE POSITION, DO NOT bucket the fireballs if Luigi is near you and
a.) you are above 65% AND
b.) you have 0/3, 1/3 or even 2/3 of the bucket filled.
If your opponent knows about the extreme ending lag of filling the bucket, he will bait you to use Bucket and punish with UpB. This will be a very early stock and may you at a disadvantage depending on the current situation in your match.
Now G&W's combos/strings become interesting, and works similarly to Mario, your opponent has two options to escape Dthrow combo's, by either Jumping (Respond with Nair) or by Nair'ing to interrupt the attempted combo (Respond by USmash). Utilize your choices, It's definitely recommended that you just USmash to avoid the attempted Nair, and even Charge longer for an anticipating USmash.
Thanks to G&W's small size and light weight, he is not as susceptible to Luigi's nasty combos BUT THEY ARE STILL PRESENT. He can still Dthrow > Fair > Fair at extremely early percents, also respect that Luigi still has a garunteed kill combo in Dthrow DownB at approximately 110% so start to play on the defensive a bit.

Anti-Air USmash is key in this match-up, realize that Luigi has one of the fastest executing aerials in the game, and as such, USmash will come in handy to keep Luigi from successfully executing these nasty aerials. Keep Luigi Grounded and looking for other means of approach, this will lead Luigi to mistakingly fireball to your bucket's pleasure, just be sure that you bring out your bucket wisely.
And G&W's Aerials out prioritize Luigi's, so Let the Turtle loose.
Luigi has almost no gimping tools available for use, since his poor recover keeps him from challenging G&W's deadly UpB, however, be mindful that experienced Luigi's can DownB offstage and even attempt to Bair stage spike you, get that tech game ready.

G&W absolutely destroys Luigi off the stage, since Luigi has extremely poor horizontal recovery in Green Missle (of course be mindful of the Mis-fire), but G&W can easily time the ending lag of using Green Missle in the air and retaliate with a Fair, either killing off Luigi or causing even more pressure to his recovery.
Rising Cyclone is an outstanding recovery tool Luigi has, but since Luigi can't autosnap to the ledge until the animation of DownB is finished, G&W can put an end to the stock by baiting the cyclone (hop off the ledge, Luigi mains see this as an opportunity to get damage off as well as knocking the opponent out of the way, ensuring a safe recovery) but quickly land back off stage and end their stock with a Dair Meteor Spike.

Respect Luigi's Smashes as should your opponent respect yours.
1.) Bucket those Fireballs wisely
2.)Luigi should essentially be dead once you get him a decent distance away from the ledge, especially if that distance is horizontal, as he's basically forced to Missle back.
3.) Luigi's smashes kill G&W pretty early, so don't play too risky. (Vice versa with Luigi ESPECIALLY Dsmash, the horizontal knockback may throw them off stage and set up your gimping tools)
4.) Bucket safely and Responsibly

This MU Favor's G&W 60/40

Any criticism/comments/additions would be awesome guys! This is my first time posting on Smashboards and hope to learn a lot more about my favorite character!
FLATZONE BOOOOYS!!!

 

[Deleted member]

The Toon Link board is currently discussing the G&W match-up if anyone has anything to add. http://smashboards.com/threads/tl-match-up-discussion-week-14-megaman-mk-g-w-ness.378737/

 

[BBC7]

So...where is the Peach discussion? How can we prove Game & Watch is real if our eyes aren't real? I play against a Peach player decently often and I can say that since Peach relies on aerials, she has to respect our U-Smash which is difficult for her because she is lightweight and thus, doesn't want to get hit by it at all. Pressuring with SH Fair is a pretty good option since it will beat the turnips and Peach herself doesn't have the best grab range. Up B is quite exploitable, since it doesn't cover much vertical range and the hitbox isn't really all that threatening, I believe Dair, Fair, and Bair can beat it. I still can't say a whole lot, maybe 60-40 or even 65-35 in our favor, since I almost never face trouble fighting Peach.

Also, this is slightly unrelated but Peach brings in mind the other Mario gal, Rosalina. I can already tell Rosalina is a nightmare match-up, as Luma basically takes away from our greatest assets. Luma can hit us out of our D-Throw which we rely on for combos, Luma makes pressuring with SH Fair much more difficult and Luma also kind of gives Rosalina no real reason to approach, meaning that U-Smash isn't as good in this match-up.

 

[RAzul]

I can provide some insight in this G&W/Luigi MU!
I'm a part of a Skype group with two outstanding Luigi mains, one of then known as BluebirdE, if you are interested in viewing his matches, go ahead and look them up with his tag!

I believe the matchup is in G&W's favor, both Luigi and G&W have outstanding combos, they're both Characters who rely on waiting for an approach from their opponent and capitalizing off of them, Luigi loses a major component to his spacing option in his Fireballs, as these Bucketed garuntees a KO on Luigi at 15% or higher. HOWEVER
Be vary wary of when and how you bucket these fireballs, as this leaves you in a VERY VULNERABLE POSITION, DO NOT bucket the fireballs if Luigi is near you and
a.) you are above 65% AND
b.) you have 0/3, 1/3 or even 2/3 of the bucket filled.
If your opponent knows about the extreme ending lag of filling the bucket, he will bait you to use Bucket and punish with UpB. This will be a very early stock and may you at a disadvantage depending on the current situation in your match.
Now G&W's combos/strings become interesting, and works similarly to Mario, your opponent has two options to escape Dthrow combo's, by either Jumping (Respond with Nair) or by Nair'ing to interrupt the attempted combo (Respond by USmash). Utilize your choices, It's definitely recommended that you just USmash to avoid the attempted Nair, and even Charge longer for an anticipating USmash.
Thanks to G&W's small size and light weight, he is not as susceptible to Luigi's nasty combos BUT THEY ARE STILL PRESENT. He can still Dthrow > Fair > Fair at extremely early percents, also respect that Luigi still has a garunteed kill combo in Dthrow DownB at approximately 110% so start to play on the defensive a bit.

Anti-Air USmash is key in this match-up, realize that Luigi has one of the fastest executing aerials in the game, and as such, USmash will come in handy to keep Luigi from successfully executing these nasty aerials. Keep Luigi Grounded and looking for other means of approach, this will lead Luigi to mistakingly fireball to your bucket's pleasure, just be sure that you bring out your bucket wisely.
And G&W's Aerials out prioritize Luigi's, so Let the Turtle loose.
Luigi has almost no gimping tools available for use, since his poor recover keeps him from challenging G&W's deadly UpB, however, be mindful that experienced Luigi's can DownB offstage and even attempt to Bair stage spike you, get that tech game ready.

G&W absolutely destroys Luigi off the stage, since Luigi has extremely poor horizontal recovery in Green Missle (of course be mindful of the Mis-fire), but G&W can easily time the ending lag of using Green Missle in the air and retaliate with a Fair, either killing off Luigi or causing even more pressure to his recovery.
Rising Cyclone is an outstanding recovery tool Luigi has, but since Luigi can't autosnap to the ledge until the animation of DownB is finished, G&W can put an end to the stock by baiting the cyclone (hop off the ledge, Luigi mains see this as an opportunity to get damage off as well as knocking the opponent out of the way, ensuring a safe recovery) but quickly land back off stage and end their stock with a Dair Meteor Spike.

Respect Luigi's Smashes as should your opponent respect yours.
1.) Bucket those Fireballs wisely
2.)Luigi should essentially be dead once you get him a decent distance away from the ledge, especially if that distance is horizontal, as he's basically forced to Missle back.
3.) Luigi's smashes kill G&W pretty early, so don't play too risky. (Vice versa with Luigi ESPECIALLY Dsmash, the horizontal knockback may throw them off stage and set up your gimping tools)
4.) Bucket safely and Responsibly

This MU Favor's G&W 60/40

Any criticism/comments/additions would be awesome guys! This is my first time posting on Smashboards and hope to learn a lot more about my favorite character!
FLATZONE BOOOOYS!!!

Dude. That was an incredibly detailed breakdown of that MU. I applaud and thank you. I'm a hardcore Villager main if you couldn't already tell by my avi but G&W has really struck a chord with me. I tend to always pick unorthodox characters in relation to the usual characters we're used to seeing like Foxes or Sheiks, but I pride myself in it. Without standing on a soapbox, thanks again broham.

 

[Keep2D]

Assuming the Peach discussion started a while ago, I'll go ahead and give my input on this MU.

G&W and Peach are both known for their threatening and powerful aerials. G&W, however, has the superior aerials over Peach, bar Peach's Dair.
Short Hop Nair/Bair is the crux in this match up aerial wise, as you will find Peach floating quite often so you will need that Fishbowl and turtle to provide the necessary pressure to Peach. (Be mindful of Peach's SideB as well.)
Chef is also a Viable option, as it pressures her to get back to the ground and shield, or jump, giving you an offensive option, grab, Pivot Grab, roll prediction, etc if grounded. Nair/UpB if jump.

You won't find yourself playing much on the ground other than mainly going for grabs and Dash attacking, but once you get Peach at high Percents (80-90), bait Peach to go for the Fair while she's floating, and punish with Usmash, time correctly though, as this is also a powerful kill move on G&W as well. USmash really scares Peach in general, but I high advise against trying to USmash through Peach's Dair, it's tough to go through those Hitboxes, at least for me.

G&W combos on Peach are pretty normal, Dthrow > Utilt > Nair > Nair/Bair/Fair/Uair is a combo at extremely low percents. 0-60 real quick bruh.

Turnips are only a bit of an annoyance, but they're not terrible. They unfortunately are not affected by G&W's Dtilt Windbox, so no dice there.
The off chance Peach gets a bomb, definitely have that Bucket ready, it fills instantly and, of course an immediate KO any where on the map, at any percent.

Peach shouldn't be attempting to gimp you, as her poor vertical recovery does not allow it, but be mindful of Turnips and Z-dropped Turnips, time your UpB's so that you'll be inpervious to them.
Also be mindful of an unlikely Fair off stage if you're a good horizontal distance away.

Gimping peach is different, if you ever find her going for the vertical recovery, it's best not to challenge with Dair, as the Umbrella out-prioritizes the Key. Try jumping off and attempting a Bair/Fair stage spike, or even an UpB if you manage to get under her. Dtilt is effective on her, as it will send her miles upward giving you an opportunity to punish her landing options, especially if she's already UpB'd.

Both characters are especially light, and have strong smashes, Peach's Fsmash Pan has to be the most effective on G&W, as it kills exceptionally early, so be extremely wary of that.

Peach also has fast tilts, so don't expect to land any ground attacks that easy, which is why your main focus should be in aerial combat unless adaptation tells you otherwise.

Peach has a greater Waiting game than G&W, since she's able to be extremely mobile in the air, she will bait the living hell out of you to approach, but as said above G&W has the necessary tools and the upper hand to deal with Peach's onslaught of Turnips, Magic, and one hell of a ***** slap.

This MU favors G&W 65-35

As said before, any additions/comments/criticism would be awesome! :D

 

[BJN39]

Hello Game and Watch players! ^ ^ Just dropping by to let y'all know the Zelda MU thread has started discussion on the G&W MU, and we'd love input from the G&W players!

Click Zelda to be teleported directly to the Zelda MU thread!

 

[Xinc]

Haha, now that you mention it, the Ganondorf thread is currently discussing the MU for G&W as well! I've linked the thread to Ganondorf's name and it'll take you to the Page 9, where the discussion begins.

I regret to inform you all that I have no knowledge in the GW vs Peach matchup to be of current use to you, by the way.

 

[lllp3lll]

Peach's low float fair's are incredibly hard to upsmash, but we can run up and UpB her from low floats using fire's windbox to launch her into the air.

 

[Macchiato]

Assuming the Peach discussion started a while ago, I'll go ahead and give my input on this MU.

G&W and Peach are both known for their threatening and powerful aerials. G&W, however, has the superior aerials over Peach, bar Peach's Dair.
Short Hop Nair/Bair is the crux in this match up aerial wise, as you will find Peach floating quite often so you will need that Fishbowl and turtle to provide the necessary pressure to Peach. (Be mindful of Peach's SideB as well.)
Chef is also a Viable option, as it pressures her to get back to the ground and shield, or jump, giving you an offensive option, grab, Pivot Grab, roll prediction, etc if grounded. Nair/UpB if jump.

You won't find yourself playing much on the ground other than mainly going for grabs and Dash attacking, but once you get Peach at high Percents (80-90), bait Peach to go for the Fair while she's floating, and punish with Usmash, time correctly though, as this is also a powerful kill move on G&W as well. USmash really scares Peach in general, but I high advise against trying to USmash through Peach's Dair, it's tough to go through those Hitboxes, at least for me.

G&W combos on Peach are pretty normal, Dthrow > Utilt > Nair > Nair/Bair/Fair/Uair is a combo at extremely low percents. 0-60 real quick bruh.

Turnips are only a bit of an annoyance, but they're not terrible. They unfortunately are not affected by G&W's Dtilt Windbox, so no dice there.
The off chance Peach gets a bomb, definitely have that Bucket ready, it fills instantly and, of course an immediate KO any where on the map, at any percent.

Peach shouldn't be attempting to gimp you, as her poor vertical recovery does not allow it, but be mindful of Turnips and Z-dropped Turnips, time your UpB's so that you'll be inpervious to them.
Also be mindful of an unlikely Fair off stage if you're a good horizontal distance away.

Gimping peach is different, if you ever find her going for the vertical recovery, it's best not to challenge with Dair, as the Umbrella out-prioritizes the Key. Try jumping off and attempting a Bair/Fair stage spike, or even an UpB if you manage to get under her. Dtilt is effective on her, as it will send her miles upward giving you an opportunity to punish her landing options, especially if she's already UpB'd.

Both characters are especially light, and have strong smashes, Peach's Fsmash Pan has to be the most effective on G&W, as it kills exceptionally early, so be extremely wary of that.

Peach also has fast tilts, so don't expect to land any ground attacks that easy, which is why your main focus should be in aerial combat unless adaptation tells you otherwise.

Peach has a greater Waiting game than G&W, since she's able to be extremely mobile in the air, she will bait the living hell out of you to approach, but as said above G&W has the necessary tools and the upper hand to deal with Peach's onslaught of Turnips, Magic, and one hell of a ***** slap.

This MU favors G&W 65-35

As said before, any additions/comments/criticism would be awesome! :D

A lot of this is wrong. Peach's aerials easily out class G&W. Her fair out ranges basically everything he has. Her uair is super disjointed and her Bair and Nair are faster. Peach won't be approaching due to G&W not having a projectile. G&W has to approach. But I must say that bair can help keep a floating peach out. Peach can also do 40-60% combos back to him. Chef doesn't pressure peach at all. One other thing is peach is decently heavier but G&W smashes are much stronger but it's harder for him to land them. Peachs fair is really safe, it has long range and is safe on shield. G&W Usmash does scare peach, it's a great anti air and makes it harder to land and combine that with his uair. It's scary. It is generally easier for peach to kill since his moves are pretty laggy. G&W will be the one baiting this MU. If I'm not mistaken G&W kill moves are his smashes. Peach has a lot more. Her dash Attack kills him at 130%. Her fair kills him at around 70%. Her smashes kill him around 70-90%. Her Bthrow kills him at like 115%. I'd say that G&W has to be patient and nair and bair are his best bets at pressuring. Also try to get a grab any chance Yew Get. This Match Up is a easy 60-40 favoring peach.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Peach's low float fair's are incredibly hard to upsmash, but we can run up and UpB her from low floats using fire's windbox to launch her into the air.

You can grab low float fairs and she shouldn't be that low to fair you if you can shield it. Its only for punish options. If she does a dair at the correct timing and you know she can do another dair. I would say do up smash because it has enough time to punish it. Challenging and potentially getting hit by nair can lead to her own throw combos.

As for the other post. G&W's aerials aren't superior to peach's but they are very good. I think you should mix up your ground game and aerials against her. You do have disjointed normals and chef to zone. Peach's fair can be used to bait you to approach her with up smash so be aware too. Actually any whiffed aerial can be used to force G&W to approach if he's just looking for an up smash. Also may I ask why you want to use up b if you are below peach? Her landing is slow and you can take advantage of that by staying grounded and following her. The match up isn't 65:35 G&W. They both have their strong points and weak points.

 

[FullMoon]

Hey 2D people, we'll be discussing the G&W MU in the Greninja boards now and any input from you guys would be appreciated: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...t-game-watch-lucario-pac-man-3-9-3-16.369356/

Just make sure we can actually see you guys because it can be kinda hard to see a 2D guy depending on the angle, especially if you're blending in with a black blackground.

 

[SPoitter]

The Peach & G&W MU is very meh.
55~45 in G&W's favor, I'm going to go over this as of now.

First off, Peach destroys G&W in the air, his only aerial that is even good by comparison to her's is nair & fair, which are still lacking compared to her aerials, however you aren't going to be combating her in the air for one reason. Chef, there is literally no point to playing her game if chef can wall out everything Peach can do, she can try to jump over it but she'd get batted with a nair, turnips have a very low chance of getting through the volley & Peach has a hard time running through it too. Another thing it does is negate her floating, most Peach mains float super close to the ground or float at the apex of the sausages, and this is because of Peach's little above average jumping height.

In conclusion, G&W can just exploit these character's weaknesses, but one slip will pretty much cost a stock if you're over 60% because of how strong she is. This MU is a little mixed but chef is a very good move here.

 

[Keep2D]

Yeah sorry guys, my input on Peach is off considering I don't have a good Peach to practice with but I've been playing with a Peach main.
It's definitely true that you'll have to respect Fair a lot more, thanks for the feedback guys! :D can't wait for the Bowser discussion, I don't really know much about the MU with Bowser but I would say it's 50/50.
G&W can get serious Combos off, and can kill Bowser since he has moves with considerable ending lag, but has huge kill power even moreso with rage at hand, so it's best to be careful.

Pretty general, but like I said, haven't faced a formidable Bowser main.

 

[Macchiato]

So do we have anything else to say about Peach? We don't have enough info to give a score for Luigi or Peach. Also guys, add customs into the discussion.

@ SFA Smiley Now that I have time, I can update this thread and stuff now.

 

[SPoitter]

Big Chef makes the peach custom MU 80-20 in G&W's favor it really does

 

[BBC7]

G&W vs Bowser

Pros:
- Bowser has a large hurtbox and his weight makes him a victim of D-Throw combos
- Predictable recovery and inability to B-Reverse his Up B makes him easy to edgeguard
- Bowser has laggy moves including his recovery

Cons:
- Bowser does not need to rely on smashes for the kill. He has tilts, grabs, special moves, and aerials that can kill us.
- Bowser's Uair trades with our Dair, and his U-Smash beats our Dair as well as other aerials
- Bowser's OoS Up B can punish aerials, dash attack, or whiffed Dash Grab
- Bowser's Down B negates our Uair windbox and packs a punch
- Bowser's moves have more range
- Bowser can kill us very early, while we kill him quite late in contrast

Overall, I really don't like this match-up because Bowser can get a whole kill off a hard read, while our hard reads probably won't kill until Bowser is at rage percents and can simply F-Tilt us for the kill. You can't even break out of Bowser's juggles with Dair, you're forced to take a defensive option which can be caught on to real quick. Likewise, Uair windbox is obsolete because Bowser can Down B through it and shred us. I also dislike Bowser's superior range and punishing capability, nothing feels crappier than to whiff a Dash Grab and get punished every time for it until you're dead.

A generous 60-40 on Bowser's side, I'd like to say 65-35 but I'm not the best at playing G&W so maybe someone can provide better input. I've been proven wrong before many times

 

[Macchiato]

Big Chef makes the peach custom MU 80-20 in G&W's favor it really does

Yeah, no

 

[SPoitter]

Yeah, no

did you take that seriously? why

 

[ElPanandero]

Assuming the Peach discussion started a while ago, I'll go ahead and give my input on this MU.

G&W and Peach are both known for their threatening and powerful aerials. G&W, however, has the superior aerials over Peach, bar Peach's Dair.
Short Hop Nair/Bair is the crux in this match up aerial wise, as you will find Peach floating quite often so you will need that Fishbowl and turtle to provide the necessary pressure to Peach. (Be mindful of Peach's SideB as well.)
Chef is also a Viable option, as it pressures her to get back to the ground and shield, or jump, giving you an offensive option, grab, Pivot Grab, roll prediction, etc if grounded. Nair/UpB if jump.

You won't find yourself playing much on the ground other than mainly going for grabs and Dash attacking, but once you get Peach at high Percents (80-90), bait Peach to go for the Fair while she's floating, and punish with Usmash, time correctly though, as this is also a powerful kill move on G&W as well. USmash really scares Peach in general, but I high advise against trying to USmash through Peach's Dair, it's tough to go through those Hitboxes, at least for me.

G&W combos on Peach are pretty normal, Dthrow > Utilt > Nair > Nair/Bair/Fair/Uair is a combo at extremely low percents. 0-60 real quick bruh.

Turnips are only a bit of an annoyance, but they're not terrible. They unfortunately are not affected by G&W's Dtilt Windbox, so no dice there.
The off chance Peach gets a bomb, definitely have that Bucket ready, it fills instantly and, of course an immediate KO any where on the map, at any percent.

Peach shouldn't be attempting to gimp you, as her poor vertical recovery does not allow it, but be mindful of Turnips and Z-dropped Turnips, time your UpB's so that you'll be inpervious to them.
Also be mindful of an unlikely Fair off stage if you're a good horizontal distance away.

Gimping peach is different, if you ever find her going for the vertical recovery, it's best not to challenge with Dair, as the Umbrella out-prioritizes the Key. Try jumping off and attempting a Bair/Fair stage spike, or even an UpB if you manage to get under her. Dtilt is effective on her, as it will send her miles upward giving you an opportunity to punish her landing options, especially if she's already UpB'd.

Both characters are especially light, and have strong smashes, Peach's Fsmash Pan has to be the most effective on G&W, as it kills exceptionally early, so be extremely wary of that.

Peach also has fast tilts, so don't expect to land any ground attacks that easy, which is why your main focus should be in aerial combat unless adaptation tells you otherwise.

Peach has a greater Waiting game than G&W, since she's able to be extremely mobile in the air, she will bait the living hell out of you to approach, but as said above G&W has the necessary tools and the upper hand to deal with Peach's onslaught of Turnips, Magic, and one hell of a ***** slap.

This MU favors G&W 65-35

As said before, any additions/comments/criticism would be awesome! :D

The only thing I would add is how effective the umbrella is this time around, getting caught above peach is really bad with how light Gdub is, approaching low/grounded is key her, as is being very wary off stage going for gimps, safe gimps are good gimps.

 

[Tibbyflapps]

For the G&W-Bowser matchup, I feel that Usmash is one of our most important tools as it helps negate a large portion of his aerial game. The invincibility on that move is fantastic and should not be discounted so quickly. Bowser's Down B hurts, but it's also extremely laggy and predictable; unless he hits you with the grounded part of it as well, you're likely not going to have to worry about it all too often. If anything, the aerial tool to fear most would be his retreating bair, since even though we can technically block it it's a fairly safe tool for him to pull out.

On ground: Bowser is juggle city for us, we combo him like crazy if we can get in. Unfortunately, however, that's somewhat difficult for us as his ground range is fairly threatening. Crouch-dashing combined with one of the fastest dash-to-shield conversions in the game helps our approach somewhat in that we can avoid some of his more dangerous tools, but it only goes so far and it's still not perfect. Bowser's Side-B, while kinda bad for him as a stock conversion move ala Bowsercide, is still a command grab with respectable knockback, especially at higher percentages. If you get grabbed at around the mid- 80%s or so, you're likely going to die, so at least try to take him with you Also, as has been mentioned, Bowser's OoS UpB is a pretty nasty tool to have to work around, effectively forcing G&W to have to play a lot safer. Of course, that's moreso only a problem if we're forced to approach.

In the air: Bowser has range, but he also has a decent bit of lag on his moves. Nair is one of his faster tools, but its range and knockback are moreso suited to being a "get-off-me" tool than an actual killing move. Our fair beats it fairly well, so it's not too much of an issue unless we get ourselves into a bad position. His dair, like ours, sends him at a specific trajectory, except that he actually has even less control of it. On top of that, its beginning animation provides an obvious clue that it's about to come out and is slow enough for us to easily react to in most instances. This should also largely be a non-issue. His fair has good knockback and speed, but its range outside of what's directly in front of him is somewhat lacking. I'm not entirely positive on this, but I believe our fair slightly beats his out range-wise. Definitely something to watch out for, but more in the sense that you can't just throw moves out above/beside him willy-nilly. Lastly, his bair... oh goodness, that bair. Perhaps I give it a bit too much credit, as it is still punishable if he randomly throws it out in the neutral, but the range and power on this move is phenomenal. and the end lag is hardly there to compensate. As I mentioned before, it's probably one of his scariest tools in the air, particularly if he RARs to fight our fair.

In terms of recovery: G&W > Bowser, easily. Bowser's UpB is great punish move and can still cover a good amount of range, but it's slow to reach its maximum distance and is easily punishable. If Bowser's offstage, you're in a good position; if he's below-stage, you're in a great position. His horizontal recovery is better than his vertical, so once you've got him off, grab the ledge and box him out. Bowser will also have a hard time gimping in return, as Trampoline Jump covers the majority of its distance pretty quickly and has lots of invulnerability.
Projectile-wise: Sausages trump Fire in terms of usability. Bowser really shouldn't be using fire in this matchup, as a) it's easily bucketable and b) there aren't really any situations in this matchup where fire is a better option than any of his other moves. Since Bowser also has a large frame, it's rather easy to put him on the defensive if you opt to use the foodstuffs for the mixup. It's not the best damage, but it's pretty free so eh.
In summation:
Pros:
+Ohhh, that upsmash
+Projectile superiority
+aerial superiority... for the most part
+ability to gimp, pretty difficult for Bowser to gimp in return
+Crouch dodges a good number of moves
+Pretty large target
+Juggling

Cons:
-Bowser's aerials can provide a decent challenge
-Bowser kills much earlier than we do; we're light, he's heavy
-Bowser has good range and decent overall speed, both lag-wise and movement-wise
-Bowser has a great OoS punish option
-Bowser has ground superiority... for the most part
-Bowser can keep us out pretty well
-We take quite a bit longer to kill him, and rage only helps him get better at killing

Neutral:
=We both have to respect one another's range. Neither of us completely dominates the other in that regard.
=We both have to be wary of the other's positions and options at any given time; every move has to count.
=Though each character technically wins one area of combat (G&W in the air and Bowser on the ground), the dominance on both ends is more 55:45 than anything. Even a slightly better player of either character can feasibly win both.

I hate to give such a trite response, but honestly I'd put this matchup at 50:50. If I were to lean either way, it'd be 55:45 Bowser, but unlike Ganon he doesn't have a fairly reliable way to guarantee the kill. Yes, he hits hard, but he has to hit with a viable killing option first, and quite honestly he's going to struggle with that. I didn't mention much about either side's tilts, though, so someone else might want to cover those in greater detail.

 

[Kofu]

Since it still says we're discussing Peach...

It feels pretty even to me, maybe a little in Peach's favor? As general rule, she shouldn't be floating unless we're also in the air since DTilt messes with float pretty badly. Peach's FAir is obnoxious, her dash attack kills surprisingly early, and her BThrow is dangerous near the ledge. We generally win the disjoint war though (the only moves I'm afraid of are FAir, UAir, and DTilt) and we have a better recovery/gimp game. USmash is great too.

 

[SeanS]

G&W vs Peach is 60-40 (in theory, in practice it's 55-45). Up B, nair (especially), and dash attack really put an insane amount of pressure on her regardless of her position and force her on the defensive. Her projectile game is weak unless she gets a lucky pickup. Her best tool is her fair, but this is very predictable. Defensively spaced fair, chair, and jab from G&W get to her. She regularly suckers into usmash because of her CQC nature.

G&W vs Bowser is 50-50 in practice, 45-55 in theory. The combo game against Bowser and the amount of pressure you can put on him off a single hit is incredible, but not only does his weight make up for it, but his jab is very good at stopping initial hits *and* he gets the easier, brainless kill method. (No hate, I use him quite often, just being honest.)

 

[SeanS]

Peach's low float fair's are incredibly hard to upsmash, but we can run up and UpB her from low floats using fire's windbox to launch her into the air.

You don't usmash this, you shieldgrab if it's poorly spaced and dash attack off the endlag if it isn't.

 

[Macchiato]

G&W vs Peach is 60-40 (in theory, in practice it's 55-45). Up B, nair (especially), and dash attack really put an insane amount of pressure on her regardless of her position and force her on the defensive. Her projectile game is weak unless she gets a lucky pickup. Her best tool is her fair, but this is very predictable. Defensively spaced fair, chair, and jab from G&W get to her. She regularly suckers into usmash because of her CQC nature.

G&W vs Bowser is 50-50 in practice, 45-55 in theory. The combo game against Bowser and the amount of pressure you can put on him off a single hit is incredible, but not only does his weight make up for it, but his jab is very good at stopping initial hits *and* he gets the easier, brainless kill method. (No hate, I use him quite often, just being honest.)

Peach can also pressure GnW really well and kills more easily. Her projectile game is actually strong, Z-drop setups and fair follow ups can be used. It is also a good option. Also Fair outranges everything he has except maybe bair. UpB isn't that big in this MU. Nair does put pressure and dash attack can be punished, I see this in peaches favor.

I know nothing about bowser soooooo. yeah

 

[GMan1255]

This thread appears to have become incredibly disjointed... Not that I could help this forum in any way, shape, or form anyway. Assuming we are talking about Bowser now, my limited experience against him along with the fact I would not consider myself a great G&W (but honestly, it seems like none of the G&W players on this forum believe they are good at playing him...) makes me believe at best this is a 50/50 matchup, but my heart tells me that Bowser has the advantage 60/40.

I have played Bowser players who have a skill level comparable to mine, and it is fairly simple to play defensively against them to beat them, but these are Bowser players blindly charging in and Bowsers end lag is so ridiculous you deserve to lose if you can't get a read on what's coming. While Bowser's DownB can't be UpAired, Bowser's DownAir can. That DownAir comes out faster than his DownB and I have seen people spam that over the Bowser Bomb. However, the few times I have been punished by a Bowser on the ground has been absolutely devastating. Bowser has no problems with killing G&W extremely early given the chance, and trying to KO Bowser can be incredibly difficult due to his weight. I feel like as soon as I would come across a competent Bowser player he would outcamp me and bait me into making a mistake, especially with his significantly longer range than G&W making approaching even more difficult than it typically is.

Of course, I am no where near skilled enough to make a valid case about matchups for G&W or any character for that matter. It is simply a noobs experience/pov and will likely be proven wrong or useless to this forum in a short amount of time. Although you earn a cookie in my book if you actually read through all of this. (there is no cookie emoticon on this forum apparently, have a gen 3 Pikachu sprite instead )

 

[SeanS]

Peach can also pressure GnW really well and kills more easily. Her projectile game is actually strong, Z-drop setups and fair follow ups can be used.

This is very predictable to deal with in practice and provides chip damage that isn't commensurate with the level of commitment. It is a very weak stalling tactic and not anything that consistently produces pressure like basically any single move in Villager's moveset or the stuff that Luma does. I have played many good Peach players and they cannot consistently land it to effect, especially offstage where I can simply Up B through it with very generous timing windows.

Also Fair outranges everything he has except maybe bair.

It also leaves her in position for a grab if poorly spaced and a dash attack if it isn't. It's best thought of in this MU as a trump card against G&W. You need to be sure of landing it.

UpB isn't that big in this MU.

If you honestly believe this, then you are not playing good G&Ws, it's that simple. Have fun trying to pressure shield with float dair into nair etc. when I can instantly hit you during endlag.