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Official SWF Tier List v8

Thor

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
2,009
Location
UIUC [school year]. MN [summer]
of course it was for money. notice how i said brawl died off? brawl had all the money for like 3-4 years.

and of all the people you named, only 2-3 are truly amazing at PM (win or place top 3 at nationals/regionals on the regular). both started with melee as well.

you will NEVER see a pure PM player do that. but that is besides the point.

PM is garbage
brawl is dead
smash 4 is the future
Care to explain where your virulent hatred of PM comes from? Is it really just that PM is a mod and/or PM jerks claim it's better than Brawl and the like [to whom I am also ill-disposed]? Or is there some fundamental error you see with the gameplay itself (that is, if Sakurai had stopped the PM dev team before this was ever released and asked to release it as Smash 4 [w/ a graphics update and new characters of course], you'd still cite as garbage and then you would state Brawl > Smash 4)?

P.S: How about "Project Money: also for those who can't handle Brawl or get good at Melee"?
 
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Z'zgashi

Smash Legend
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
17,322
Location
WeJo, Utah
NNID
ZzgashiZzShy
3DS FC
1521-3678-2980
PM killed a lot of smash scenes in general, mine included. We're still trying to bring stuff back.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
7,649
Location
Finland
I just really hate how many people talk about PM like it was an actual Smash game released between Brawl and Smash 4.
If they removed the "Brawl" characters from it that are stupid I would like it as a remastered Melee with a better balance.
 

Thor

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
2,009
Location
UIUC [school year]. MN [summer]
I just really hate how many people talk about PM like it was an actual Smash game released between Brawl and Smash 4.
If they removed the "Brawl" characters from it that are stupid I would like it as a remastered Melee with a better balance.
My favorite part about the entire Smash debacle of "which game is better" is that people try to quantify a qualitative word, which is just factually impossible. "More competitive" implies there is a standard for competiton, which is 100% unquestionably put-your-hands-down-because-you-don't-understand-how-words-work arbitrary - equivalent to me giving someone two wavelengths of visible light one nanometer apart and asking which is more red (when they are both what many people would just call red if given the color in front of them).

That said, many people affix their own generally agreed standards (shields should not be very safe, or just downright awful, true combos should be abundant, juggling should be easy, the game should have high movement speeds), but none of that has any basis in fact. A competition is about testing skills to determine the superior player (within some ruleset) - that can happen in any Smash game, so they are all competitive, like it or not. The community emphasizes the things above, but if people valued the ability to read the opponent over and over to string moves together, Brawl and Smash 4 would be far superior to 64, Melee, and PM from the general perspective, since they require significantly more interaction when a hit is landed (you not only have to read DI, but whether they'll attack, do nothing, airdodge, jump, etc. - all that interaction is significantly less likely to occur in a Fox ditto).

Then people treat PM as an actual Smash title, and not a mod [a remastered Melee with a character expansion pack is a good way to think of it, as -LzR-], like you said above, and it makes me wonder what passes for information these days, since nearly all the people who love PM think they're super-informed for liking a mod over any of the real Smash games, and then talking trash about other Smash games (because that's so productive if one wants to expand the scene and support their chosen game... :facepalm:).

[All that said, I play it because I'm pretty solid at it and thus have made some cash from it (what a sellout, I know... but I love Smash in all its incarnations, modded or not - which is also why I like pushing Brawl Minus ^_^, though no one wants to give it a shot around here <_<).]
 

Z'zgashi

Smash Legend
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Messages
17,322
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WeJo, Utah
NNID
ZzgashiZzShy
3DS FC
1521-3678-2980
Easily the one thing that bothers me THE MOST is those scrubs who just treat PM like its the best game there ever was and just have a big old group circle jerk to it. It also will always eternally piss me off that this forum has its PM section in the Games section, like, thats for the ACTUAL games in the series, it should really just have its own sub forum/section in the smash mods area.
 
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-LzR-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
7,649
Location
Finland
Amazing post. Really made me think with that part where competitiveness doesn't have a set standard. That's so true.
I also liked Brawl-. It was exactly what it was supposed to be, a Smash mod with a purpose of taking things a little bit too far. I just wish it was harder, I wasn't a fan of how to broken stuff was also really abusable and spammable, but rip Brawl-. At least that was an actually interesting mod instead of a copy+pasted version of the older game.

Easily the one thing that bothers me THE MOST is those scrubs who just treat PM like its the best game there ever was and just have a big old group circle jerk to it. It also will always eternally piss me off that this forum has its PM section in the Games section, like, thats for the ACTUAL games in the series, it should really just have its own sub forum/section in the smash mods area.
This is the worst. Some new people join the scene. The first thing they are told is that Brawl is garbage and they should play PM because it's the best and of course, being new, that's exactly what they do and proceed to join the circlejerk.
 

Thor

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
2,009
Location
UIUC [school year]. MN [summer]
Amazing post. Really made me think with that part where competitiveness doesn't have a set standard. That's so true.
I also liked Brawl-. It was exactly what it was supposed to be, a Smash mod with a purpose of taking things a little bit too far. I just wish it was harder, I wasn't a fan of how to broken stuff was also really abusable and spammable, but rip Brawl-. At least that was an actually interesting mod instead of a copy+pasted version of the older game.


This is the worst. Some new people join the scene. The first thing they are told is that Brawl is garbage and they should play PM because it's the best and of course, being new, that's exactly what they do and proceed to join the circlejerk.
I don't know if you care to play it nowadays, but... the mod was revived, and the dev team says this is the MAX era of Brawl Minus [as compared to the 2.x era]. And Brawl Minus 4.0 will be coming out soon. There are still people who play it online thanks to people getting Brawl and its derivatives (i.e. mods) to work online (I probably will be over break).

http://brawlminus.net/forums/

This is still fairly active. And for what it's worth, a lot of the most degenerate stuff was removed (ROB's multilaser, Falco's nair stuff, Samus charge shot and ice missiles being silly, other stuff I may not have even been aware of) so the game is more challenging (though at a low level, abusing/spamming the intentionally broken stuff that helps them keep up and makes offense super strong (like Falco's JC phantasm, Falcon's Falcon Kick, ROB's side+B) is still far more effective than in any smash game ever, besides possibly smart nado usage+dsmash as MK in Brawl).

Also completely agree about people being told something is terrible and just believing... I read on facebook somewhere this post where a guy was like "Can't find anyone to play Brawl with - I was told it was terrible and just believed it, but after playing some I really like it. Do any of you on here play Brawl?" and he was met with derision (except by a few who played as well). To me, it's a travesty that people can't even be separated from the video games they play (this person was being insulted directly, not just insulting their game choice), and it's unfortunate that he could've been playing Brawl when the scene was more active were he not misinformed to begin with.
 
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-LzR-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
7,649
Location
Finland
I don't know if you care to play it nowadays, but... the mod was revived, and the dev team says this is the MAX era of Brawl Minus [as compared to the 2.x era]. And Brawl Minus 4.0 will be coming out soon. There are still people who play it online thanks to people getting Brawl and its derivatives (i.e. mods) to work online (I probably will be over break).

http://brawlminus.net/forums/

This is still fairly active. And for what it's worth, a lot of the most degenerate stuff was removed (multilaser, Falco's nair stuff, Samus charge shot and ice missiles being silly, other stuff I may not have even been aware of) so the game is more challenging (though at a low level, abusing/spamming the intentionally broken stuff that helps them keep up and makes offense super strong (like Falco's JC phantasm, Falcon's Falcon Kick, ROB's side+B) is still far more effective than in any smash game ever, besides possibly smart nado usage+dsmash as MK in Brawl).
Wow. I thought it died years ago and no one cared to look back. Shame no one will care because PM.

Also completely agree about people being told something is terrible and just believing... I read on facebook somewhere this post where a guy was like "Can't find anyone to play Brawl with - I was told it was terrible and just believed it, but after playing some I really like it. Do any of you on here play Brawl?" and he was met with derision (except by a few who played as well). To me, it's a travesty that people can't even be separated from the video games they play (this person was being insulted directly, not just insulting their game choice), and it's unfortunate that he could've been playing Brawl when the scene was more active were he not misinformed to begin with.
It's thing like this that make me think PM has a negative impact on the scene. And I also can't stand PM being on the Smash Games section of the forums.
 
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Hippieslayer

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
944
Location
Azeroth
Why does it suck apart from its impact on the scene and that it's treated like a real smash game (who gives a **** about that? if its comparable to one then whats the problem?)? How is it not a better version of melee?

Brawl was going to die anyway, PM just shortened its suffering. You talk about PM like you're talking about the game when in actuality you are talking about the smash scene, it's pretty weird. Like I get why you hate it, but do you have to pretend like your hatred has substance in order to justify it?
 
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Tagxy

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
1,482
lmao, Im using this account for now (as Cassio) but yeah good times. Marth-Pika still even in spirit.
 

LiteralGrill

Smokin' Hot~
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
5,976
Location
Wisconsin
I'm going to do something so mind blowing, it will make everyone's brain explode. I'm going to talk about, THE TIER LIST!!! Maybe some of folks have seen the /r/smashbros Tier Lists for Smash 4 and thought, "Those things go so well, we should do one for Brawl!" (I'm not even sure if I was sarcastic or not there O_O). Well I was asked so I popped it up on /r/SSBB (the Brawl Subreddit) and got over 100 responses. Players were asked to rate each character 1-10 with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best and the average is taken. I also asked a few other questions as well just because I was curious.

SO LET'S GET THIS STARTED!

[collapse=/r/ssbb Voted Tier List (March 2015)]

:metaknight:(9.48) :popo: (9.13)
:snake:(8.52) :olimar:(8.34) :diddy:(8.33) :marth:(8.17) :falco:(8)
:zerosuitsamus:(7.78) :pikachu2:(7.72) :wario:(7.17)
:wolf:(6.76) :fox:(6.75) :lucario:(6.61) :dedede:(6.57) :toonlink:(6.36) :pit:(6.25) :peach:(6.07) :rob:(6.05)
:gw:(5.9) :sheik:(5.89) :sonic:(5.57) :lucas:(5.42) :ike:(5.34) :kirby2:(5.29) :luigi2:(5.13) :dk2:(5.11)
:ness2:(4.95) :mario2:(4.39) :yoshi2:(4.30) :pt:(4.16)
:samus2:(3.77) :falcon:(3.57) :link2:(3.48) :bowser2:(3.26) :zelda:(3)
:jigglypuff:(2.84) :ganondorf:(2.39)

[/collapse]


[collapse=Other Questions]

[/collapse]

So, what do you guys think of this compared to the current list?
 

KVLTofMetal

Smash Lord
Joined
May 27, 2014
Messages
1,516
Location
East Texas
NNID
KVLTLancelot
I'm going to do something so mind blowing, it will make everyone's brain explode. I'm going to talk about, THE TIER LIST!!! Maybe some of folks have seen the /r/smashbros Tier Lists for Smash 4 and thought, "Those things go so well, we should do one for Brawl!" (I'm not even sure if I was sarcastic or not there O_O). Well I was asked so I popped it up on /r/SSBB (the Brawl Subreddit) and got over 100 responses. Players were asked to rate each character 1-10 with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best and the average is taken. I also asked a few other questions as well just because I was curious.

SO LET'S GET THIS STARTED!

[collapse=/r/ssbb Voted Tier List (March 2015)]

:metaknight:(9.48) :popo: (9.13)
:snake:(8.52) :olimar:(8.34) :diddy:(8.33) :marth:(8.17) :falco:(8)
:zerosuitsamus:(7.78) :pikachu2:(7.72) :wario:(7.17)
:wolf:(6.76) :fox:(6.75) :lucario:(6.61) :dedede:(6.57) :toonlink:(6.36) :pit:(6.25) :peach:(6.07) :rob:(6.05)
:gw:(5.9) :sheik:(5.89) :sonic:(5.57) :lucas:(5.42) :ike:(5.34) :kirby2:(5.29) :luigi2:(5.13) :dk2:(5.11)
:ness2:(4.95) :mario2:(4.39) :yoshi2:(4.30) :pt:(4.16)
:samus2:(3.77) :falcon:(3.57) :link2:(3.48) :bowser2:(3.26) :zelda:(3)
:jigglypuff:(2.84) :ganondorf:(2.39)

[/collapse]


[collapse=Other Questions]

[/collapse]

So, what do you guys think of this compared to the current list?
I... think it's better than the current tiers in areas. Shiek definitely deserves higher than she's currently placed.
Not sure where luigi/Lucas got that obscene jump from.
For a voted tier list it's... fairly solid.
 

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
6,445
Location
In the rain.
Apex 2015 = lots of good players didn't enter, or they dropped out. This included a lot of Snake slayers (M2K ESAM NAKAT Dabuz etc). Ally's only notable wins were really just myself Salem MVD Vinnie and Nairo twice; Snake's even with ZSS and himself, and Ally was undefeated with Nairo just cause I guess Nairo's bad at the MU (and funnily enough this Apex was the first time Nairo beat Ally ever, he won WFs then Ally brought it back from loser's). Ally's also lost to Vinnie multiple times, that MU is like evenish or +1 ICs

So no this Apex's results aren't really that valuable for determining any char's position on the tier list. Snake definitely should not be 3rd, he doesn't even really beat anyone in the top 10 aside from arguably barely beating Diddy, Wario, Falco and ZSS...and I guess maaaaaaybe ICs
 
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Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

PhD; Smash Community Studies
Premium
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Feb 1, 2012
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Ontario, Canada
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I wish people would stop thinking Puff is so bad. She's better than Falcon (and Bowser is better than the two of them), Link and Zelda are garbage. Zelda literally has 0 options she's worse than Ganon imo.

Now that the important stuff is out of the way, Diddy is easily 3rd best in the game (and imo 2nd ahead of ICs but I've stopped trying to argue that). Falco (and ZSS and Pikachu too probably) should be above Marth. Marth is bad. Stop thinking Marth is good.

Fox is too high too.

I actually like where they put ROB in this one.
 

NAKAT

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 29, 2009
Messages
2,436
Location
In Belleville NJ, with Leap of Faith
Apex 2015 = lots of good players didn't enter, or they dropped out. This included a lot of Snake slayers (M2K ESAM NAKAT Dabuz etc). Ally's only notable wins were really just myself Salem MVD Vinnie and Nairo twice; Snake's even with ZSS and himself, and Ally was undefeated with Nairo just cause I guess Nairo's bad at the MU (and funnily enough this Apex was the first time Nairo beat Ally ever, he won WFs then Ally brought it back from loser's). Ally's also lost to Vinnie multiple times, that MU is like evenish or +1 ICs

So no this Apex's results aren't really that valuable for determining any char's position on the tier list. Snake definitely should not be 3rd, he doesn't even really beat anyone in the top 10 aside from arguably barely beating Diddy, Wario, Falco and ZSS...and I guess maaaaaaybe ICs
SNAKE SUCKSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
 

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
6,445
Location
In the rain.
Decided to try to construct my own top tier by hashing out a MU chart amongst the top 10. Obv it's not completely accurate of my opinion on top tier as the MUs aren't weighted, and I was forced to come up with a number for MUs I don't really have a strong/educated opinion but here it is anyway for those that are curious/for ****s and giggles

:metaknight:>:popo:
:olimar:>:marth:>:diddy:
:wario:>:pikachu2:>:snake:>:zerosuitsamus:
:falco:
 

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
6,445
Location
In the rain.
Never mind my last post. I've been realizing I actually have a lot of trouble coming up with an ordered list for the top 10 when I try to take MUs amongst the top 10 into consideration, especially since I don't know a lot of them well so I don't have educated opinions on a lot of them

This is my tier list where I don't try to order any further than I feel comfortable ordering

:metaknight:>:popo:
:diddy:>:olimar:
:falco:/:marth:/:pikachu2:/:snake:/:wario:/:zerosuitsamus:
 
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