Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Tesh]

Iono, I asked Masha and he said he feels like Wario is just good in doubles. I rarely see them in singles but they look sooooooo good in doubles. Far more precise than our Warios imo.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Doubles strategy is pretty boring for Wario. Airdodge, camp, strong moves. Live long and prosper.

 

[Tesh]

Dthrow is so good. But what you said applies to pretty much everyone. Spam strong moves, stay alive and wait for easy chance to 2v1 or something.

Alot of the reading that happens in singles is basically nullified by good disruption in doubles.

 

[Mekos]

@Kuro - My post was toward Seagull. He made an excuse for Gluttony losing. We all have excuses you know...smh. For example, that was my first time playing Trela(never experienced his skills before). He is easily the best lucario in the US and his power level is far above the rest. I didn't even know lucario could chain grab lucas. But I'm not gonna make an excuse. I lost and am going to learn from the set.

@Reflex - nah bro. u gotta remember doubles is extremely underdeveloped in the USl.
Watch this Wario/DK team using great teamwork. The wario is actually taking the lead most of the time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSThPOXZumM

 

[Player-1]

you best listen to mekos, luis. He'll **** you up in doubles

 

[Seagull Joe]

@Kuro - My post was toward Seagull. He made an excuse for Gluttony losing. We all have excuses you know...smh. For example, that was my first time playing Trela(never experienced his skills before). He is easily the best lucario in the US and his power level is far above the rest. I didn't even know lucario could chain grab lucas. But I'm not gonna make an excuse. I lost and am going to learn from the set.

@Reflex - nah bro. u gotta remember doubles is extremely underdeveloped in the USl.
Watch this Wario/DK team using great teamwork. The wario is actually taking the lead most of the time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSThPOXZumM

Precisely my point again. You said beats based on your first time experience vs one. You just make claims off of extremes.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I watched that video Mekos, and while the dk and wario had great synergy, he still wasnt really doing anything other than airdodging camping, drawing attention and fishing for random damage racking/high power moves, which is what reflex said.

 

[Mekos]

@Da Kid - Nah it is something called "Team spacing". It is a beautiful concept! Not random at all. But that is a different discussion.

@Joe - Call it what u want. Isn't that what matters the most? The best vs the best? I've beaten other lucarios. But what matters is who can represent lucario at the highest level. I'm confused why that isn't correct. I think the matchup is worse for lucas based on the skills that Trela showed me. I wasn't aware before. For example, I played june bug once in tourney and before that I had thought the matchup was -1 for lucas. After playing him I still thought it was -1. After playing Trela I saw the matchup was much worse. Trela's smarts combined with his tech skill for the character has taken lucario to a level I hadn't experienced before. It is fair to say that after I experience that I can change my opinion.

Again I feel the matchup chart should be based on the best against the best. The current highest skill level for the character.

And you put words in my mouth alot. I never said facing Trela was the first time I played a lucario. It was the first time I played the best lucario, Trela. That is a difference.

 

[infiniteV115]

How are both Snakes using the same tag?
Or am I just blind?

 

[Mekos]

Aren't you guys judging the pikachu matchup chart based mostly off of Esam's pikachu?
His character vs character data?

 

[NickRiddle]

More like, he argues his point, and people agree/disagree with things he says.
It's not 100% ESAM's input.

 

[Ishiey]

I think is even with based on results and theory.

Naaah. It's a solid +1 imo, played Oats a bunch at E4U (as well as Ravenlord a bunch at APEX) and Lucas's options are so straightforward. Not necessarily bad, but as long as you don't let yourself get overwhelmed by Lucas being all over the place for no reason it's Wolf's advantage.

Playing appropriately at high %s makes it rather difficult for Lucas to kill with anything that isn't ftilt. But then again, Wolf doesn't have it that much easier if Lucas is doing the same lol

mwhahahaahahaahaha that's why u theory crafters make me lol so hard!

If I win there is always an excuse. Did you ever think that there is an excuse for me if I lose?

Food for thought...

And seagull you are wrong. If Kain bodies all falco's then that means Wolf has the capabilities to do so. He is the top wolf and is getting it done. He is using the fundamentals of the game and his character to get the job done. His mastery has allowed him to do so. He is the top wolf and the matchup should be based accordingly.

And you talking to Yink doesn't mean anything. I'm a top lucas who actually has played a top ness. I think that experience means more than simple talk.

The mistake theory crafters seem to make is that they judge things based on their experiences. There is much more than your individual experience. I have a unique lucas. Gluttony has a unique wario. Never played a wario like him. The way he used the bike was crazy for example. Part of the game is the ability to adapt.


So my question is...how is this matchup chart created? What are u judging? Historical 08 data? Friends that you play with? I dunno. If it is the best of the best with the character then it is wrong for lucas. simple. I gave a few examples to prove my point.

Have you ever considered that maybe you're outplaying your opponent, or have superior MU knowledge? I don't see you considering these factors very often, and imo Lucas is a character that becomes noticeably less dangerous with the proper MU knowledge.

Wolf:Falco is even, unless you're fighting Larry >_>

Wait. "The mistake theory crafters seem to make is that they judge things based on their experiences." This makes no sense, that's exactly what you're doing. What?

The MU chart is made by having top mains (both theory/knowledge experts and top tournament players) discuss the MU until a final number is reached.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your numbers btw, you'd know better than I would what Lucas's MUs are lol. Just sayin', maybe you should re-evaluate how you support these opinions...

 

[Mekos]

Yes but I can do that because I am the best lucas. That is my point. I'm judging the MU chart for lucas. Not any other character. That is not my place.

You are saying wolf beats lucas because you have played Oats and Ravenlord. Again this connects to my point. It is wrong for you to judge Lucas's power level based on your personal experiences if you haven't experienced the highest level of play.

The matchup chart should be based on the best of the best...not just who u have played.

 

[Ishiey]

So... ES@M can say Pika goes +2 with mid tier and below because he's the best Pika, and is a better player than all top mains for mid tier and below? That is my point. Some players are better than others, especially in regards to good characters vs bad characters due to somewhat more competitive drive/experience. You can't say that since the top player for one character beats top players of other characters, the MU is X. It is not that simple.

I am saying Wolf beats Lucas because of my experiences with the MU, and citing the names because those are the good Lucas mains that I have played. Ravenlord beat me faaar more often than I beat him, but I was still able to see things in the MU that prevented it from quite being even. EDIT: It was still relatively high-level play, Oats and Ravenlord are both well-known Lucas mains in their region. Honestly, besides you, that's as good as it gets for active Lucas players.

The matchup chart should not be based solely on the best of the best, see my first paragraph. That should play some factor since theorycrafting everything is stupid, but at a point you have to acknowledge that player skill is a huge variable and there's some merit to logically dissecting a MU through theorycraft.

 

[Mekos]

Yes imo Esam's opinion would matter the most for pika.

U mentioned that a wolf player needs to not get overwhelmed by lucas going all over the place for no reason. Well guess what I agree with you and that is not how I play lucas. I have told my fellow lucas mains that a flashy lucas looks cool but wont win you battles if the opponent knows what is going on. Your knowledge of lucas is flawed imo. You haven't taken the blue pill. You don't know all that lucas can do but you think you do. You don't know the true power of the pk fire.

We all make that mistake but that is why we should respect the players who are the top with the characters.

There is something that makes a player the best of the best with their character. It is a combination of tech skill and "smarts". Respect the player's smarts.

 

[Ishiey]

Yeah, you play Lucas... differently, at least in that regard. A lot more calm and controlled, focusing on spacing and baits. I don't know all that Lucas can do, and never meant to make it seem like I did. But I do feel like, at least as far as Wolf/Lucas goes, I have an adequate amount of knowledge on the MU and how it plays out. And with that comes a fair amount of knowledge on how Lucas functions. Is there anything in particular you think I am unaware of that you'd like to share?

PKF is stupid, why does it go through Wolf's blaster, makes no sense >__> not like that's what makes it so irritating, it's just stupid lol

I'm not trying to say they aren't respected, just that their win/loss records shouldn't necessarily be the main thing that determines MUs. Like in your post where you mentioned Lucas's MUs, some of them had reasoning to back them up (ex. Samus) but others were just straight up "I played the top main of character X and won handily" (ex. Luigi). Win/loss record shouldn't always be an indicator, as I said before there are various factors going into that aside from the MU itself.

Slightly off-topic but next time you're up in NJ I'd love to sit down and play some friendlies with you, as much as the Lucas MU tends to irritate me it's one I really want to get a good handle on for some reason

EDIT: I'm not saying the opinions of top players don't matter the most. They do, but they need to be supported properly with information about the MU itself as opposed to tournament records.

 

[NickRiddle]

Mekos, I know it's not literal... but PK Fire is bad.

 

[Doc King]

Lucas sucks

Mekos is just too good. I wanna see mekos play other characters like Mario and see how he does because Mario has options just like Lucas.

inb4playerjohnsrant

 

[Sinister Slush]

What does it matter if Lucas fights against Mario compared to better and higher tier characters?

 

[#HBC | J]

Haha Lucas doesn't suck as a character. I also don't know whether you are trying to compare Lucas to Mario or not.

 

[Doc King]

What does it matter if Lucas fights against Mario compared to better and higher tier characters?

Lucas actually has some competition.

Haha Lucas doesn't suck as a character. I also don't know whether you are trying to compare Lucas to Mario or not.

Yes he does. Middleweight character with slow moves. Bad ground and air release. Punishable recovery, poor range on quick attacks (Long and powerful ranged moves are too laggy), etc.

If he doesn't suck then why was he low tier for all of those years?

In theory Mario is actually better because his cape can do a lot of good stuff. If there was a good Mario around I can see him doing just as well as Lucas.

Lucas has too many weaknesses and his strengths are only mediocre.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I dunno... I haven't seen Mario take out any people compared to the people Pink Fresh or Mekos have defeated.
Hell, not even all of Brawl's release has Mario done all that much...

 

[Doc King]

How about Riot and Fuujin for Zelda? Zelda must be a middle tier character.

Bowser should be middle tier because of KingKong and Falcon should be mid because of Ally and Stroumbert.

Stroumbert beat Ally's D3. Matchup is +5 Falcon favor, Falcon for God tier. Ban Falcon!

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLmoeXlFrD4&feature=relmfu

So much for Mario not doing anything.

Low tier doesn't mean you don't win anything. Low tiers win occasionally.

 

[Steam]

doc king so silly

 

[#HBC | J]

Hmm haven't gotten into a brawl semantics talk in a while about Lucas.

Yes he does. Middleweight character with slow moves. Bad ground and air release. Punishable recovery, poor range on quick attacks (Long and powerful ranged moves are too laggy), etc.

Slow moves? Have you researched some of Lucas' frame data? I apologize if you have but I have to say that making that generalization on all of his moves isn't true.

Punishable recovery? Not really considering his mix-ups with 4 different types of recoveries *PKT2, Zap-jump, Tether, and Wavebounce* Plus his Double Jump is pretty decent.

Poor range on quick attacks isn't true, have you researched his Ftilt and Fair? I mean yes, his quick attack Nair is terrible in range because it's hit-box is his hurt-box but I feel you are more making generalizations again.

Doc King, can you please show evidence to your claims about Lucas?

If he doesn't suck then why was he low tier for all of those years?

Easy, under-repped. The only person who was around that was winning consistently with Lucas before was Pink Fresh and Galeon. I could swear there was one more but I can't recall so yeah. Nowadays we have Pink, Mekos, and FAE who all do well consistently and even at big level tournaments these days.

In theory Mario is actually better because his cape can do a lot of good stuff. If there was a good Mario around I can see him doing just as well as Lucas.

Because of cap...Mario = Better...? That's not a solid argument to make. And did you know there was a good Mario at the time there was a good Lucas and the Lucas still would do a bit better if my memory from like a couple years ago (Pink Fresh vs. Boss). However, I would need to refresh myself so apologies if I am a bit wrong on this one. However, Mario is not a better character than Lucas, but that's my opinion on the matter. Mario belongs probably at the top of LT with Lucas being at the bottom of Mid-tier.

Lucas has too many weaknesses and his strengths are only mediocre.

Can you back this up please? I am curious to your opinion.

 

[Kole]

I could swear there was one more but I can't recall so yeah.

Maybe Nasty?

 

[#HBC | J]

There we go, how could I forget Nasty when I met the dude. Now I feel bad. ;_;

 

[Judo777]

But Im the best Wario in the world......

 

[Doc King]

Hmm haven't gotten into a brawl semantics talk in a while about Lucas.



Slow moves? Have you researched some of Lucas' frame data? I apologize if you have but I have to say that making that generalization on all of his moves isn't true.

Punishable recovery? Not really considering his mix-ups with 4 different types of recoveries *PKT2, Zap-jump, Tether, and Wavebounce* Plus his Double Jump is pretty decent.

Poor range on quick attacks isn't true, have you researched his Ftilt and Fair? I mean yes, his quick attack Nair is terrible in range because it's hit-box is his hurt-box but I feel you are more making generalizations again.

Doc King, can you please show evidence to your claims about Lucas?



Easy, under-repped. The only person who was around that was winning consistently with Lucas before was Pink Fresh and Galeon. I could swear there was one more but I can't recall so yeah. Nowadays we have Pink, Mekos, and FAE who all do well consistently and even at big level tournaments these days.



Because of cap...Mario = Better...? That's not a solid argument to make. And did you know there was a good Mario at the time there was a good Lucas and the Lucas still would do a bit better if my memory from like a couple years ago (Pink Fresh vs. Boss). However, I would need to refresh myself so apologies if I am a bit wrong on this one. However, Mario is not a better character than Lucas, but that's my opinion on the matter. Mario belongs probably at the top of LT with Lucas being at the bottom of Mid-tier.



Can you back this up please? I am curious to your opinion.

For results I've found out that Ally actually beat an Olimar with Mario in a match. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2dAo1cb1BI&feature=relmfu

There's only like one Lucas who does well and the others I don't see place well.

I won't believe Lucas is mid until I see mekos play another low tier without sandbagging. Ever though Mekos is just a too good player?

Lucas has an auto loss against DK and Sheik. Lucas won't be able to do ****. It's like saying Bowser and Mewtwo in melee are middle tier viable great characters because of gimpyfish and taj.

Mekos will probably start pocketing mk once ppl learn grab release combos.

For frame data, Lucas has quick weak attacks that can be SDIed pretty well and don't have too much range.

For smash attacks, except for Bat they're very slow but have great range and power.

His grab move sucks like ZSS, TL, Link, Samus, Yoshi.

His tilts are meh. Pretty week.

Specials are meh. PK fire is pretty ****ty and thunder can be DIed and punished when recovering. PK freeze is pretty worthless and psi has a couple of uses but opponents can react.

The problem with Lucas is that it's easy to react to Lucas's moves and to punish his situations. On top of that characters can grab release him off stage and Lucas kill moves besides bat which isn't great ranged are too laggy. It seems like any character with a sword can just slice through Lucas air attacks.

The only main thing that's good with Lucas is speed, and poking moves. His reliable moves can't kill or send back or do damage well enough and Lucas can't really camp.

Lucas just seems very predictable and can punish greatly against Lucas.

 

[#HBC | J]

There's only like one Lucas who does well and the others I don't see place well.

They do place well consistently. (Pink/FAE/Mekos I mean)

I won't believe Lucas is mid until I see mekos play another low tier without sandbagging. Ever though Mekos is just a too good player?

....? Mekos is a good player yes but why must he play Mario/another LT in order for Lucas to go up? With that logic, people should not have let LTs in the past like Yoshi/Ike out without their mains picking up other LTs to show them off. I mean couldn't the same logic be used for Mario?

Lucas has an auto loss against DK and Sheik. Lucas won't be able to do ****. It's like saying Bowser and Mewtwo in melee are middle tier viable great characters because of gimpyfish and taj.

Lucas does not auto-lose against Sheik. It's just probably one of his hardest MUs. DK is because of the CG, i'll give you that.

Mekos will probably start pocketing mk once ppl learn grab release combos.

Haha okay, I'm sorry but no.

For frame data, Lucas has quick weak attacks that can be SDIed pretty well and don't have too much range.

http://www.youtube.com/v/lOtwomIykVE

For smash attacks, except for Bat they're very slow but have great range and power.

This is completely true.

His grab move sucks like ZSS, TL, Link, Samus, Yoshi.

Okay, tether grabs suck but I have to say Yoshi's isn't that bad...o_O

His tilts are meh. Pretty week.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=255033

The only main thing that's good with Lucas is speed, and poking moves. His reliable moves can't kill or send back or do damage well enough and Lucas can't really camp.

I will agree somewhat to this. Lucas' Air Speed is insanely good but you are right his reliable moves can't really kill but they can do damage. Lucas can't camp...eeeeh.

 

[Mekos]

mwhaahahahaahaahaaha Doc oc you don't know me at all if you think that I would train a pocket mk.
mwahahahaahaahah too funny! I am dying over here!

Son you need to understand the will of fire. You can overcome anything if you have that. Here is me defeating a impossible matchup. Marth vs lucas. They have the second easiest infinite on lucas. I think Dk's is easier. And I have defeated all the top marths except for Neo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tqdB2K_69I

Stop believing everything you read on paper. Smash theory is NOT my reality! And don't let it be yours! Create your own smash destiny and believe in yourself!

 

[Mr-R]

I love your posts mekos

 

[Player-1]

^^^^^^we should start a fan club

 

[Sunnysunny]

Oh my gosh...
I've never read a post with so much heart put into it.

Quoting~ That was beautiful, man~ <3

 

[Mekos]

lololololol

I mean it. I'm serious guys.

And for clarification yall must realize that I am not just saying a matchup is wrong because I have won or have a positive record. That would be foolish. But I think it is safe to say my opinion would matter the most for lucas. While I'm playing I'm analyzing all of the options that are possible based on my mastery of lucas. It's not fair to analyze lucas's ability based on a lower skilled player who isn't utilizing all of lucas's options(like the snaking I have created) or using them correctly.

For example, I've beaten all the marths(except for Neo) and I still think it should be -3 or -2 for lucas.
I've beaten every Rob that I have played. The only one that gave me any struggle is Stingers. The matchup chart says it is -1. I think that is correct. I don't think it should be 0 solely because I win against Robs.

I know my character and understand if I am beating an opponent solely on smarts. For example, If a character has an infinite it is safe to say that the matchup is real bad and that the lucas is completely outsmarting his opponent.

 

[Flayl]

You gotta believe!

 

[Mr-R]

lololololol


For example, I've beaten all the marths from the states (except for Neo) and I still think it should be -3 or -2 for lucas

fixed

10chars

 

[Mekos]

-_________-

Our mm was too sexy. The EU marths are too sexy!! I wish it was saved.
Face my Super Saiyan 4 lucas at apex 2013. I was Super Saiyan 3 at apex 2012.
Prepare yourself Mr. R!

 

[clowsui]

mekos word on the streets is you haven't beaten dr peepee either

confirm/deny

 

[da K.I.D.]

yo the callout...


also, small note, somebody (it was a stupid comment so Im going to assume it was Doc) tried to use gimpyfish as an example of a low tier placing well.

this is why people should not talk about things they dont know.

Gimpy never beat good people with bowser. He was cool looking and flashy and was the best bowser player, but he still never had any major tournament accomplishments.