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Precisely my point again. You said beats based on your first time experience vs one. You just make claims off of extremes.@Kuro - My post was toward Seagull. He made an excuse for Gluttony losing. We all have excuses you know...smh. For example, that was my first time playing Trela(never experienced his skills before). He is easily the best lucario in the US and his power level is far above the rest. I didn't even know lucario could chain grab lucas. But I'm not gonna make an excuse. I lost and am going to learn from the set.
@Reflex - nah bro. u gotta remember doubles is extremely underdeveloped in the USl.
Watch this Wario/DK team using great teamwork. The wario is actually taking the lead most of the time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSThPOXZumM
Naaah. It's a solid +1 imo, played Oats a bunch at E4U (as well as Ravenlord a bunch at APEX) and Lucas's options are so straightforward. Not necessarily bad, but as long as you don't let yourself get overwhelmed by Lucas being all over the place for no reason it's Wolf's advantage.I think is even with based on results and theory.
Have you ever considered that maybe you're outplaying your opponent, or have superior MU knowledge? I don't see you considering these factors very often, and imo Lucas is a character that becomes noticeably less dangerous with the proper MU knowledge.mwhahahaahahaahaha that's why u theory crafters make me lol so hard!
If I win there is always an excuse. Did you ever think that there is an excuse for me if I lose?
Food for thought...
And seagull you are wrong. If Kain bodies all falco's then that means Wolf has the capabilities to do so. He is the top wolf and is getting it done. He is using the fundamentals of the game and his character to get the job done. His mastery has allowed him to do so. He is the top wolf and the matchup should be based accordingly.
And you talking to Yink doesn't mean anything. I'm a top lucas who actually has played a top ness. I think that experience means more than simple talk.
The mistake theory crafters seem to make is that they judge things based on their experiences. There is much more than your individual experience. I have a unique lucas. Gluttony has a unique wario. Never played a wario like him. The way he used the bike was crazy for example. Part of the game is the ability to adapt.
So my question is...how is this matchup chart created? What are u judging? Historical 08 data? Friends that you play with? I dunno. If it is the best of the best with the character then it is wrong for lucas. simple. I gave a few examples to prove my point.
Lucas actually has some competition.What does it matter if Lucas fights against Mario compared to better and higher tier characters?
Yes he does. Middleweight character with slow moves. Bad ground and air release. Punishable recovery, poor range on quick attacks (Long and powerful ranged moves are too laggy), etc.Haha Lucas doesn't suck as a character. I also don't know whether you are trying to compare Lucas to Mario or not.
Slow moves? Have you researched some of Lucas' frame data? I apologize if you have but I have to say that making that generalization on all of his moves isn't true.Yes he does. Middleweight character with slow moves. Bad ground and air release. Punishable recovery, poor range on quick attacks (Long and powerful ranged moves are too laggy), etc.
Easy, under-repped. The only person who was around that was winning consistently with Lucas before was Pink Fresh and Galeon. I could swear there was one more but I can't recall so yeah. Nowadays we have Pink, Mekos, and FAE who all do well consistently and even at big level tournaments these days.Doc King said:If he doesn't suck then why was he low tier for all of those years?
Because of cap...Mario = Better...? That's not a solid argument to make. And did you know there was a good Mario at the time there was a good Lucas and the Lucas still would do a bit better if my memory from like a couple years ago (Pink Fresh vs. Boss). However, I would need to refresh myself so apologies if I am a bit wrong on this one. However, Mario is not a better character than Lucas, but that's my opinion on the matter. Mario belongs probably at the top of LT with Lucas being at the bottom of Mid-tier.Doc King said:In theory Mario is actually better because his cape can do a lot of good stuff. If there was a good Mario around I can see him doing just as well as Lucas.
Can you back this up please? I am curious to your opinion.Doc King said:Lucas has too many weaknesses and his strengths are only mediocre.
Maybe Nasty?I could swear there was one more but I can't recall so yeah.
For results I've found out that Ally actually beat an Olimar with Mario in a match. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2dAo1cb1BI&feature=relmfuHmm haven't gotten into a brawl semantics talk in a while about Lucas.
Slow moves? Have you researched some of Lucas' frame data? I apologize if you have but I have to say that making that generalization on all of his moves isn't true.
Punishable recovery? Not really considering his mix-ups with 4 different types of recoveries *PKT2, Zap-jump, Tether, and Wavebounce* Plus his Double Jump is pretty decent.
Poor range on quick attacks isn't true, have you researched his Ftilt and Fair? I mean yes, his quick attack Nair is terrible in range because it's hit-box is his hurt-box but I feel you are more making generalizations again.
Doc King, can you please show evidence to your claims about Lucas?
Easy, under-repped. The only person who was around that was winning consistently with Lucas before was Pink Fresh and Galeon. I could swear there was one more but I can't recall so yeah. Nowadays we have Pink, Mekos, and FAE who all do well consistently and even at big level tournaments these days.
Because of cap...Mario = Better...? That's not a solid argument to make. And did you know there was a good Mario at the time there was a good Lucas and the Lucas still would do a bit better if my memory from like a couple years ago (Pink Fresh vs. Boss). However, I would need to refresh myself so apologies if I am a bit wrong on this one. However, Mario is not a better character than Lucas, but that's my opinion on the matter. Mario belongs probably at the top of LT with Lucas being at the bottom of Mid-tier.
Can you back this up please? I am curious to your opinion.
They do place well consistently. (Pink/FAE/Mekos I mean)There's only like one Lucas who does well and the others I don't see place well.
....? Mekos is a good player yes but why must he play Mario/another LT in order for Lucas to go up? With that logic, people should not have let LTs in the past like Yoshi/Ike out without their mains picking up other LTs to show them off. I mean couldn't the same logic be used for Mario?Doc King said:I won't believe Lucas is mid until I see mekos play another low tier without sandbagging. Ever though Mekos is just a too good player?
Lucas does not auto-lose against Sheik. It's just probably one of his hardest MUs. DK is because of the CG, i'll give you that.Doc King said:Lucas has an auto loss against DK and Sheik. Lucas won't be able to do ****. It's like saying Bowser and Mewtwo in melee are middle tier viable great characters because of gimpyfish and taj.
Haha okay, I'm sorry but no.Doc King said:Mekos will probably start pocketing mk once ppl learn grab release combos.
http://www.youtube.com/v/lOtwomIykVEDoc King said:For frame data, Lucas has quick weak attacks that can be SDIed pretty well and don't have too much range.
This is completely true.Doc King said:For smash attacks, except for Bat they're very slow but have great range and power.
Okay, tether grabs suck but I have to say Yoshi's isn't that bad...o_ODoc King said:His grab move sucks like ZSS, TL, Link, Samus, Yoshi.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=255033Doc King said:His tilts are meh. Pretty week.
I will agree somewhat to this. Lucas' Air Speed is insanely good but you are right his reliable moves can't really kill but they can do damage. Lucas can't camp...eeeeh.Doc King said:The only main thing that's good with Lucas is speed, and poking moves. His reliable moves can't kill or send back or do damage well enough and Lucas can't really camp.
fixedlololololol
For example, I've beaten all the marths from the states (except for Neo) and I still think it should be -3 or -2 for lucas