Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Mekos]

at 13:27 for lucas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09b6o-eXyQs

10:52 for pika
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9KQDycv9wA

 

[Seagull Joe]

at 13:27 for lucas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09b6o-eXyQs

10:52 for pika
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9KQDycv9wA

Thunder doesn't have a pull to it. Your down b pushed him into the thunder when you let go?

That 1st vid kill was lol. I think extended his hurtbox by bairing into the ground. 's Usmash is broken.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Puff can punish MK's fsmash with rest if she jumps over it and fast-fall rests with the correct timing :3

Dat high risk

 

[Doc King]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEmUch8pmoo#t=1m33s

Lucas's up smash is extremely slow, like even King Dedede's, Ganon's, and probably Ike's up smashes are slightly faster and Lucas is a middle weighted character. It does give great range but only for about a second and then a dozen amounts of ending lag to punish for a quick smash attack or a grab. It does have great power but according to brawl, power really doesn't mean much and for a very slow move too.

I really think Lucas is a low tier. Mekos did alright in a tourney, but lets not forget that other low tiers have placed decently in tourneys. Like Riot placed 13 out of 33 in Dissention and that was with Zelda. Riot even beat Chibo's Rob. I just see Lucas being more closer to Mario, Samus, and Bowser than with Luigi, PT, Ness, etc. Another thing to point out is that Lucas didn't make any money at that tournament. Mekos didn't make any money at Xanadu either and lost to Coney and Logic. If you look closely, Reflex actually makes money at tournaments, while Mekos doesn't make any money at tournaments. Vex actually made it to bracket and won a set with Ganondorf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IUpSrAb0do&feature=plcp

Lucas I think is one of the better low tiers but I don't think he should be automatically middle tier.

Maybe they should make a low mid tier or top low or something which would be alright for Lucas but being directly in the middle seems way too much for Lucas to handle. It would probably have like PT and Luigi in low mid/top low tier.

 

[Mekos]

Thunder doesn't have a pull to it. Your down b pushed him into the thunder when you let go?

That 1st vid kill was lol. I think extended his hurtbox by bairing into the ground. 's Usmash is broken.

Nah Lucas down B isn't like Ness's. It doesn't push people when released.

@Doc - I've learned to completely ignore you because u never know what your talking about and make no sense.
One small example, I beat Chibo as well 2-0.

Keep posting if this is what you do for fun...but just know you are not correct on most things.
I imagine a 14 year old kid so I don't respond(other times).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Man, ROB is ********.

Beats MK +1, loses to Lucas and Zelda -1.

 

[Mekos]

^ Wow that is what the matchup chart says!?
The matchup chart is so wrong and that is what helped create the tier list.

but it doesn't really matter anyways. It's about playing the game to the best of your ability imo.

 

[Doc King]

Nah Lucas down B isn't like Ness's. It doesn't push people when released.

@Doc - I've learned to completely ignore you because u never know what your talking about and make no sense.
One small example, I beat Chibo as well 2-0.

Keep posting if this is what you do for fun...but just know you are not correct on most things.
I imagine a 14 year old kid so I don't respond(other times).

Mekos provide me some more tournamet results if you disagree with me. I just think that Lucas in mid tier would be too high for Lucas.

You basically did just as well as Riot did in a tournament. Reflex actually places like top 3 spots and gets to grand finals with PT and actually makes money.

If Lucas is low tier on the current 7th tier list, then why do ppl think he's mid tier already.

Please just tell me why Lucas should be middle tier.

He's low mid tier at best. He wouldn't be capable of being middle tier. Also the game is getting old so the metagame won't be advancing much longer and you can't say Lucas will make huge jumps from the tier list just because one person does alright with him. Last tier list only had a few big movements with everybody being where they are for the most part.

You act like Lucas is actually viable in Brawl when he's not.

Man, ROB is ********.

Beats MK +1, loses to Lucas and Zelda -1.

Beats the worst character in the game +5 which is Dedede.

 

[Mekos]

No I don't care. But you post like you follow my results and am my best friend who travels to tourneys with me.

I'm not hear to argue his tier placement. I was just responded to Judo.

I don't act like anything. I just play the game and try my best. The tier list wont effect me. Theory crafting is stupid imo. I'll leave that to you. But at least theory craft with facts.
If you don't know something then be silent. Don't post like you know. If you care then do the research yourself and make sure the data is correct.

 

[Doc King]

No I don't care. But you post like you follow my results and am my best friend who travels to tourneys with me.

I'm not hear to argue his tier placement. I was just responded to Judo.

I don't act like anything. I just play the game and try my best. The tier list wont effect me. Theory crafting is stupid imo. I'll leave that to you. But at least theory craft with facts.
If you don't know something then be silent. Don't post like you know. If you care then do the research yourself and make sure the data is correct.

I wasn't theorycrafting. In theory Lucas is actually a lot worse, but I'm not gonna get into that. I was actually comparing tourney results.

Sorry for claiming that you were saying Lucas is middle tier. I was just referring to your older post and some posters on here. You can be a low tier main like in Melee there were a couple of low tier mains like Gimpyfish and Taj, but I just don't want ppl in general to think that if a low tiers wins or places well in one major they're automatically mid tier.

Congrats though on your success.

 

[Mekos]

Thank you. Tier placings isn't about results tho. My results don't matter. The tier list should really be about the match up chart.

That is why it is a shame that the matchup chart is flawed.

 

[Doc King]

I don't really like when ppl judge too much on the chart. For example Donkey Kong is matchup charted way too low for someone that actually places pretty well which I think DK is kind of underrated.

Even tier list judgement shouldn't be too important like the low tiers like Lucas, Mario, and Samus aren't really too separated from low mids like Luigi and PT.

 

[Seagull Joe]

What the ****? is definitely not Low Tier. Mekos please apply to the BBR next time around because we have 0 reps in there and it'd help my case when I keep saying he's Mid tier...

Doc King stop posting. You never make any sense. You haven't explained why is bad other then results. I've also seen Mekos get 2nd at tourneys before. He usually gets top 3 in Nc (Nc isn't amazing, but Reflex goes mostly in GA, while Mekos goes solo ). He and Pink Fresh have gotten as high as 5th in Md/Va. I think PF has gotten 4th once before, but don't quote me on that. Fae wins tourneys in MO (Not amazing, but it's something).

Man, ROB is ********.

Beats MK +1, loses to Lucas and Zelda -1.

^ Wow that is what the matchup chart says!?
The matchup chart is so wrong and that is what helped create the tier list.

but it doesn't really matter anyways. It's about playing the game to the best of your ability imo.

It doesn't say that Mekos. You're being trolled. Click to the first page of the matchup chart. I'm surprised you actually believed someone said BEATS ...

 

[Ishiey]

Thank you. Tier placings isn't about results tho. My results don't matter. The tier list should really be about the match up chart.

That is why it is a shame that the matchup chart is flawed.

Just out of curiosity, what do you believe is wrong about Lucas's MUs on the chart?

 

[MegaRobMan]

Seagull is just a victim of getting trolled without knowing it on like every thread.

I do agree that Lucas is mid-tier like Yoshi is mid-tier.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

also im just gonna say pikachus thunder does NOT have a magnetic pull to it. i have a lot of experience in a lot of its intricacies and a magnetic pull is not something i have ever witnessed

looking at the video closely tlinks boomerang hit the snake on the return swing and knocked him into it. man i wish pikachus thunder was magnetic like that it would be op and nigh unpunishable lmao

 

[Luco]

Just out of curiosity, what do you believe is wrong about Lucas's MUs on the chart?

I know this seems random and i'm not trying to answer for mekos but I did notice something that made me curious on his match-up spread.

Lucas has DK as a -3 where Dedede is a -2. I know DK is nuts with cargo grab but i've been taught to fear Dedede like no other when it comes to grabs. Is it just everything else or...

I mean, if a Lucas plays reasonably safe he won't get hit by DK's super punch often enough for it to be a huge factor, right?

I don't claim to be really knowledgeable on either MU but I just wanna know why there's such a difference?

 

[NickRiddle]

Doesn't DK have an easy infinite on Lucas?
Cargo > turn around > wait?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Doesn't DK have an easy infinite on Lucas?
Cargo > turn around > wait?

This, yeah.

 

[Mekos]

I told Doc I didn't care to respond.

But for clarification at locals I get second or third in singles. 1st in doubles.
Always receive money.

@Stealth Rapter - My main point is that the hitbox for pika's thunder is disjointed(if that is the correct word to use). Hence why pika and lucas can do a super heal. Healing from 100% to 0 in one thunder.

@Ish - I'll get a few examples real quick. Hold on
Wow! Almost everything is wrong. I don't know what they based it off of. If they are basing it off of the highest level of play for the character which would be me then it is wrong.
For example...
1. It shows we are -1 for ike. It should be 0 or +1. Ike is a strong wall but lucas can can camp him and has a reliable gimp against him with pk thunder. I've never lost to an ike and have played alot of them including the top ones.
2. It shows we are 0 with luigi. lol. Definitely a +2 or +1. There was a video of me vs. Boss where I 2-0 him. I guess it has been taken down from youtube. I can't find it.
Here is a recent vid of me vs a top luigi. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4Et96QqCxs
3. It shows we are -2 for ice-climbers. I've defeated every ice-climber across the nation(I've played ALOT of ice-climbers lol). The only Ice-climbers I've lost to is Esam's. But we are even in that matchup. I beat him once and he beat me once. It should be -1 or 0 based solely on results.
ex. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOamABB9ED8
4. Shows a -1 for ness. Nah. With my snaking I've created it allows for us to space accordingly against this character. Also, our gimping game is too good against him. I've had many wifi and offline battles with Fow(the best ness). This should be 0.
5. It has a +1 for Samus. This should be a 0 or -1. Lucas struggles against characters the most that don't allow him to pressure hard once he is inside. This is why he struggles against lucario as well.
6. It has a -2 for DDD. That should be -3.
7. It has a -2 for wario. This is definitely 0. I've defeated every wario I've played except for Malcolm(played him a Ktar6). He was the first top level wario I played. During our set I grew in power level and learned the matchup. You can see that in the youtube vid(can't seem to find it). With my experience from the Malcolm set I was able to beat the best wario in the world Gluttony. Which can be seen here for proof. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2QzjgcBXX0
Lucas vs wario is the perfect example of whoever gets the lead wins. They both can't approach each other that well and have a hard time catching up if the other player simply camps.

That's all for now. Those were just a few examples.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Just because you beat a ton of people doesn't make a matchup your characters favor. For example: Kain has a positive record over like every and he's even with Shugo, but that doesn't make automatically even with . Some people are just good at matchups.

Nobody fights . I doubt Glutonny knew how to fight you compared to your knowledge vs . He plays no amazing 's to my knowledge.

Have you fought san or Ryo to even declare has the advantage on ?

I agree with you about .

I value Noid/Pink Fresh's opinion about since they're practice partners.

is NOT -2 with . He could lose to him -1, but I think it's even. Originally the last panel had it as 's favor +1, but I got it reduced to even (I was head of the panel).

I think beats based on what Yink has told me and she knows the PSI kids.

I think is even with based on results and theory.

 

[Kuro~]

Mekos beat ryo in pools at apex.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Mekos beat ryo in pools at apex.

Do they have any Lucas mains in Florida?

 

[Kuro~]

No. The last one was gallion? i believe.

 

[C.J.]

There was Galeon, yes. But he hasn't played in like... 18 months. And I don't think Ryo ever did play him at all; at least not when Ryo was the gdlk player he is now.

 

[Kuro~]

That is correct.

 

[Mekos]

mwhahahaahahaahaha that's why u theory crafters make me lol so hard!

If I win there is always an excuse. Did you ever think that there is an excuse for me if I lose?

Food for thought...

And seagull you are wrong. If Kain bodies all falco's then that means Wolf has the capabilities to do so. He is the top wolf and is getting it done. He is using the fundamentals of the game and his character to get the job done. His mastery has allowed him to do so. He is the top wolf and the matchup should be based accordingly.

And you talking to Yink doesn't mean anything. I'm a top lucas who actually has played a top ness. I think that experience means more than simple talk.

The mistake theory crafters seem to make is that they judge things based on their experiences. There is much more than your individual experience. I have a unique lucas. Gluttony has a unique wario. Never played a wario like him. The way he used the bike was crazy for example. Part of the game is the ability to adapt.


So my question is...how is this matchup chart created? What are u judging? Historical 08 data? Friends that you play with? I dunno. If it is the best of the best with the character then it is wrong for lucas. simple. I gave a few examples to prove my point.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

If Kain bodies all falco's then that means Wolf has the capabilities to do so. He is the top wolf and is getting it done. He is using the fundamentals of the game and his character to get the job done. His mastery has allowed him to do so. He is the top wolf and the matchup should be based accordingly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UFiuAQBmbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbnTVF_CgEA

: /


Lol,

He is using the fundamentals of the game and his character to get the job done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61mVaXwyHJA

50-50, obv.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

7. It has a -2 for wario. This is definitely 0. I've defeated every wario I've played except for Malcolm(played him a Ktar6). He was the first top level wario I played. During our set I grew in power level and learned the matchup. You can see that in the youtube vid(can't seem to find it). With my experience from the Malcolm set I was able to beat the best wario in the world Gluttony. Which can be seen here for proof. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2QzjgcBXX0

The trouble is, I'm the best Wario in the world.

 

[Seagull Joe]

mwhahahaahahaahaha that's why u theory crafters make me lol so hard!

If I win there is always an excuse. Did you ever think that there is an excuse for me if I lose?

Food for thought...

And seagull you are wrong. If Kain bodies all falco's then that means Wolf has the capabilities to do so. He is the top wolf and is getting it done. He is using the fundamentals of the game and his character to get the job done. His mastery has allowed him to do so. He is the top wolf and the matchup should be based accordingly.

And you talking to Yink doesn't mean anything. I'm a top lucas who actually has played a top ness. I think that experience means more than simple talk.

The mistake theory crafters seem to make is that they judge things based on their experiences. There is much more than your individual experience. I have a unique lucas. Gluttony has a unique wario. Never played a wario like him. The way he used the bike was crazy for example. Part of the game is the ability to adapt.

So my question is...how is this matchup chart created? What are u judging? Historical 08 data? Friends that you play with? I dunno. If it is the best of the best with the character then it is wrong for lucas. simple. I gave a few examples to prove my point.

Top players make the matchup chart. Like everyone from that top 5 list basically.

Of course has the capability to beat . Every character is capable of winning, but that doesn't mean they automatically win a matchup. It's clear when people can see disadvantages in a matchup. You only see one side and don't take into account the disadvantages has in the matches you play. You only consider advantages and hence overrate .

It's like saying +3's cause I beat every ...

 

[infiniteV115]

The trouble is, I'm the best Wario in the world.

You think you're better than Glutonny?

 

[Player-1]

no, im the best wario in the world

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You think you're better than Glutonny?

Yeah. I wasn't particularly confident about it until SKTAR happened, but, yeah. I don't think I'm a great deal better or anything, but, I think it's a fair statement.

 

[Doc King]

According to Mekos logic Dedede beats ZSS +2

Falcon and Zelda beat Dedede +1

Also Ganon is +2 against Marth and -1 against Snake.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

According to Mekos logic Dedede beats ZSS +2

Falcon and Zelda beat Dedede +1

Also Ganon is +2 against Marth and -1 against Snake.

How the....? What could you possibly be basing this off of?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

According to Mekos logic Dedede beats ZSS +2

Falcon and Zelda beat Dedede +1

Also Ganon is +2 against Marth and -1 against Snake.

Falcon does beat D3

 

[Kuro~]

mwhahahaahahaahaha that's why u theory crafters make me lol so hard!

If I win there is always an excuse. Did you ever think that there is an excuse for me if I lose?

Food for thought...

And seagull you are wrong. If Kain bodies all falco's then that means Wolf has the capabilities to do so. He is the top wolf and is getting it done. He is using the fundamentals of the game and his character to get the job done. His mastery has allowed him to do so. He is the top wolf and the matchup should be based accordingly.

And you talking to Yink doesn't mean anything. I'm a top lucas who actually has played a top ness. I think that experience means more than simple talk.

The mistake theory crafters seem to make is that they judge things based on their experiences. There is much more than your individual experience. I have a unique lucas. Gluttony has a unique wario. Never played a wario like him. The way he used the bike was crazy for example. Part of the game is the ability to adapt.


So my question is...how is this matchup chart created? What are u judging? Historical 08 data? Friends that you play with? I dunno. If it is the best of the best with the character then it is wrong for lucas. simple. I gave a few examples to prove my point.

no1 made excuses or tried to disagree w/your claims. I was simply stating facts. Take them how you will.

Top players make the matchup chart. Like everyone from that top 5 list basically.

Of course has the capability to beat . Every character is capable of winning, but that doesn't mean they automatically win a matchup. It's clear when people can see disadvantages in a matchup. You only see one side and don't take into account the disadvantages has in the matches you play. You only consider advantages and hence overrate .

It's like saying +3's cause I beat every ...

Lol this.

Top play should be taken into account but there are quite a few factors that matter.

 

[Doc King]

It's really not that bad for Falcon because D3 has no followups and Falcon can poke D3 easily.

 

[Tesh]

Yeah. I wasn't particularly confident about it until SKTAR happened, but, yeah. I don't think I'm a great deal better or anything, but, I think it's a fair statement.

Better than Japanese Warios too? And Mexico?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I guess I'm not well-informed enough to make a sound decision on that. Yukhoe was the only Japanese Wario I've seen (at APEX), and I wasn't really impressed. Other than that, I've seen Abadango beat a mediocre Meta Knight, so, I wouldn't know what to say about him.

Do you know of any that are really notable?