Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[bubbaking]

How early does Jiggs die to Ike's jab?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Shouldn't matter if any Jiggz were be able to SDI it, which shouldn't be hard with their lightweight.

 

[infiniteV115]

Pretty sure weight doesn't affect how easy it is to SDI something. iirc that's entirely dependent on
-The damage the move does
-Hitlag multipliers that the move has

(These two determine the amount of hitlag the move produces)

-SDI multipliers (determines how far you SDI with each input)

DeLux please confirm, you're the one who filled me in on this.

 

[bubbaking]

Well it might not affect how easy it is to SDI something, but weight affects KB which might make it easier for Jiggs to get out of certain moves. Still, it seems obvious that Jiggs loses that MU. Ike is heavy and strong and has far-reaching aerials and tilts, some of which really aren't that slow, that also have a lot of disjoint. Jiggs is light and not-so-strong and her range is very inferior to Ike's, let alone her disjoint. I don't know how Puff would be able to theorycraft her way into an even MU. <__<

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't think Ike's jab1 and jab2 have knockback...

 

[SoulPech]

it's arguable. Ike has an amazing bair and fair (if fair hits despite the starting lag), but his weakness is he can be easily gimped. Despite that, Puff can die to Ike super early due to his heavy dmg.

With Puff, she's light and can die early, so her saving grace is aerials and gimps. Ike is also super heavy.

puff can pop out of the jab lock around 20 ish percent and the jab + utilt can kill early if caught sleeping. I have played beserkerswordsman, which is the closes top ike in my area.

I felt it's even, but everyone else says it's +1


I also like how bubba uses "theorycraft" like everyone does it

 

[bubbaking]

Well, I'm pretty sure Ike's jab would give Jiggs trouble in CQC...

 

[bubbaking]

Double post because SWF is being dumb for me and I'm having trouble editing stuff in.

I also like how bubba uses "theorycraft" like everyone does it

I said Jiggs, not everyone.

What you just said kinda accurately describes an even MU. When are you going to hit Ike far enough offstage to gimp him? Wouldn't he have to be at not-low %'s? Can you reliably take him out of Aether? +1's can "feel" even to some. Marc created the +/- system, right? He said a 55:45 is essentially a +1. That's close enough to even.

Edit: OK, my editing's good again. Anyway, isn't Ike's nair also good in this MU?

 

[SoulPech]

I am aware of that. That's why I NEVER said 55:45 or "feel" it's even, but I think it's EVEN based on my experience. Every Aerial takes Ike out of Great Aether and if Ike ever tries to recover side b, you can just go far off the edge where he would hit you and can't recover or you chase and fair to kill or bair to remain onstage. . if he gets by and lands on the stage, you knock off the stage and repeat the process. If Ike goes to the ledge you just grab it

 

[Desu~]

That's right,
that's where Jiggs aerial prowess could help.
When you manage to get him out of stage, he gets nearly vulnerable.
You lay a couple of Bairs and/or Fairs to keep him away or you stage gimp a careless aether.
As long as you don't get hit by the big blows, it's still good.

Is what i would think.

 

[Psychoace]

Jiggs isn't going to get ike offstage, she's going to hit him and run until he eventually kills her at a far lower percent than she would him; with a more devastating punish.

 

[Kewkky]

You can harass Ike offstage pretty seriously. Using an aerial while offstage for Ike means risking death, since their animations take forever to end. Coupled with his slaw air speed, low vertical ascension from his 2nd jump, sideB's vulnerability (if he hits something, he's now in freefall) and crap horizontal distance coverage from his upB, getting harassed offstage would suck more than you think. As long as Ike isn't too high up, using just about any aerial means he has a lower chance of successfully recovering.

Then again, Jiggs is super light and has almost no disjoints, and Ike is a pretty heavy hitter while having a buttload of disjoints in his sword...

Saying either one has an advantage on the other isn't exactly easy without something else to tip the scales.

 

[Luco]

I can see this MU being even, in my super theorycrafting imagination... >_> <_<

 

[SoulPech]

You can harass Ike offstage pretty seriously. Using an aerial while offstage for Ike means risking death, since their animations take forever to end. Coupled with his slaw air speed, low vertical ascension from his 2nd jump, sideB's vulnerability (if he hits something, he's now in freefall) and crap horizontal distance coverage from his upB, getting harassed offstage would suck more than you think. As long as Ike isn't too high up, using just about any aerial means he has a lower chance of successfully recovering.

Then again, Jiggs is super light and has almost no disjoints, and Ike is a pretty heavy hitter while having a buttload of disjoints in his sword...

Saying either one has an advantage on the other isn't exactly easy without something else to tip the scales.

This is why I've said it's even >.>. Oh well, my opinion doesn't matter anyway.

 

[smashkng]

It's difficult to SDI out of jab if he only goes for the first one. You then have to expect it. Jab Utilt kills at 80-85ish IIRC. But yeah Ike's jab is faster than anything Puff has except Rest. I'm pretty sure that it's hard for Jiggs to get inside Ike's range. Ike has so much range and Puff has very little. If Ike can wall Wario then he for sure can wall Jigglypuff too. I think with Ike's huge range, his moves are not too unsafe if used correctly. It's very risky for Jigglypuff to try to bait and punish ost of Ike's powerful moves when they have so much range and if they hit they kill Jigglypuff very early and if she even manages to punish it's a very weak punishment. IDK how safe Jigglypuff's moves are on block, but I'm pretty sure that only her aerials are that and only if spaced very well. IDK if I can buy that "run away". If it was that easy to run away from Ike, wouldn't it be really easy to run away from Snake too? Also, while Puff has 5 jumps and great horizontal air speed, her falling speed is incredibly slow. At least Wario has a decent fast fall to get back to the ground quickly. I don't think she can land anywhere too safely except the ledge TBH.

Also, I don't think it's that easy to get Ike offstage at the first place. Her moves don't really send Ike very far and her throws aren't the best for sending someone offstage.

 

[bubbaking]

Ike goes even against all the decent 'fast/mobile punishers' (Peach, Fox, Sheik, Yoshi, Sonic, etc.), meaning he can either wall them out or punish something of theirs pretty well. I think a +1 on Jiggs sounds pretty reasonable.

 

[Desu~]

Well you COULD always try and make him flinch with a pound or Dair...

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Every Aerial takes Ike out of Great Aether

EVERY AERIAL beats Ike's FINAL SMASH?

+4 MU for Jiggs imo

 

[Luco]

I get the feeling this is one of those MUs you can't generalize on... but eh, what do I know?

Just feels like a weird MU to me, with Jiggly just going any which way in the air...

 

[Desu~]

If only we had more videos with this Match-up...

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

If only we had more videos with this Match-up...

Here's a good video of the MU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlGtz5-1tEI

Jiggs won with 69% so I think it's safe to say that the MU is +4 in Jiggs' favour

 

[Desu~]

Man,
San just punished those aethers like a champ.
I just love how people usually let their guard down on the 3rd rollout.

 

[bubbaking]

Here's a good video of the MUhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlGtz5-1tEI

Jiggs won with 69% so I think it's safe to say that the MU is +4 in Jiggs' favour

Except that Jiggs is one of the best Ikes in the world. He knows both chars in and out!


Wow, pretty much anything Jiggs touches Ike's shield with can be punished with jab OoS. That's what it looked like anyway. I mean, San is a much better player, but Berserker lost pretty much because he started going for a grab every other second, lolz! He was winning up until that point...

Edit: I mean, he also lost with TL, and that's a -2 MU for Jiggs. He got hit by Rollout in both matches...

Edit 2: Aaand he lost with Kirby.....

Edit 3: And was 2-stocked as Marth...

Edit 4: And the dude ALWAYS gets hit by Rollout. (-_-)

 

[Illuvial]

Does ShinyMewtwo ever take anything seriously?

But on topic, I agree with the MU being 55:45 in Ike's favor, which Is essentially +0 anyways. I won't bother repeating the arguments that have already been stated many times now, but this is just my quick opinion.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Does ShinyMewtwo ever take anything seriously?

What ever gave you the impression that I didn't?

 

[Z'zgashi]

lol guys, San, aka best Ike player there is and a top notch Jiggs player, agrees Ike vs Jiggs is even, so I dont see how you guys can even argue against his opinion seeing as 1, none of you use either character at high level, and 2, hes better than all of you.

 

[bubbaking]

I agree with the MU being 55:45 in Ike's favor, which Is essentially +0 anyways. I won't bother repeating the arguments that have already been stated many times now, but this is just my quick opinion.

Marc, who I believe is essentially one of the main founders of the +/- system, has said that a 55:45 is a +1.

lol guys, San, aka best Ike player there is and a top notch Jiggs player, agrees Ike vs Jiggs is even, so I dont see how you guys can even argue against his opinion seeing as 1, none of you use either character at high level, and 2, hes better than all of you.

This is pretty bad logic, and it's been called out as such several times already ITT. When M2K and ESAM both agreed that the MK: Pika MU was even (it's staying as such, but oh well), no one would take the fact that each of them was the best player of his respective char as good enough reasoning to just go along with it. Sure, the value is sticking, but it had to be argued out because M2K's and ESAM's opinions couldn't be fully trusted. Your logic also dictates that the Mario panel is being pretty ridiculous for arguing for a -4 for Mario:DDD because Boss, pretty much the best Mario, is better than practically everyone on that panel and he doesn't think that the MU is -4. Still, it would be pretty unjustifiable to say that they shouldn't at least try to make an argument for their case just because Boss or some other incredible Mario player disagrees. San is a "top notch Jiggs player" largely because he's a good Brawl player. This topic has already been discussed as well. Low Tiers' best players tend to be top players of other characters. Being skilled at a game doesn't make you good at realizing why your char wins/loses a MU. It just makes you.....skilled.

However, the opinion of a high/top level player IS a strong argument. It just isn't a 100% conclusive, 'case closed' argument like you're making it out to be.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Does ShinyMewtwo ever take anything seriously?

I'll have you know he took his graduate studies very seriously

i only award Ph.D's to the most qualified candidates

 

[Illuvial]

Meta Knight loses 5-95 against Mario and Jiggs, Quest is the greatest player and poster on the boards, and Luigi is the manliest character in the game. Can I has Ph.Double D's?

 

[pidgezero_one]

wtf?! youre not even enrolled in any of my classes it takes a lot of time and effort and money to get a doctorate of philosophy

 

[Illuvial]

Why does it take so much time?
Why does it take so much money?
Why does it take so much effort?
Why is why the question?

 

[infiniteV115]

Why does it take so much time?
Why does it take so much money?
Why does it take so much effort?
Why is why the question?

dude just except the fact that you can't philosophy all right
?

 

[pidgezero_one]

Why does it take so much time?
Why does it take so much money?
Why does it take so much effort?
Why is why the question?

john madden

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Luigi is the manliest character in the game

Hey hey hey, let's not forget Jigglypuff.

 

[Illuvial]

This is why Shiny has the Ph.D and I don't!

 

[pidgezero_one]

I just noticed V115 is kind of a weiner.

 

[Luco]

Can I have a Ph.D pidge? =D

To be fair bubba, if peeps don't use either char then the argument is stronger. Don't get me wrong, top players can be wrong, it's just if we don't have the experience, we're probably more likely to be inaccurate than they are.

 

[Gardex]

This thread is going places

 

[Luco]

This thread is going places

Have I ever told you how much I love your avatar btw?

Sorry I had to continue it (though I do actually love your avatar :D). But yea, that's partially why I aid what I did in my last post: Trying to kinda get something happening. I wouldn't worry, though, if the new MU chart will be finished and published soon.

 

[blacktwins13]

Trying to kinda get something happening. I wouldn't worry, though, if the new MU chart will be finished and published soon.

its coming out april 1st