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Corigames

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Messages
5,817
Location
Tempe, AZ
During my practice I realized that doing it facing the stage (flying off backwards) was better because you could hit someone with a tipper Bair or reverse Nair and still be in good position to bomb jump and grapple back. If you face forward as you fly out, you are much more limited in your options due to facing away. On top of that, if you are early on the press, you will be on stage still and can WD back quickly for the edge hog and if you are late you just grab the ledge right away.

That said, I think I know a better situation for this tech, but I don't want to say anything until I get to the point where I can do it consistently at 1x speed. Until then, theory crafting about it is unnecessary. Then again, I might end up like Jurassic Park:
"Yeah, yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should."
 

GoomySmash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
80
That said, I think I know a better situation for this tech, but I don't want to say anything until I get to the point where I can do it consistently at 1x speed. Until then, theory crafting about it is unnecessary. Then again, I might end up like Jurassic Park:
"Yeah, yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should."
There's a lot of wacky situations where this could be pretty cool/useful. Good luck getting it down at full speed, I can't wait to see if anyone can incorporate it into their play
 

Pi

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
6,038
Location
Lake Mary, Florida
2015 still fuckin with swd lol,
that ish does look cool doe
also klits a busterino
 
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GoomySmash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
80
http://gfycat.com/WearyMadBordercollie

So I'm finally able to do the aSWD/boostball/rocketboost somewhat consistently. Here's a cool edgeguard I got with it in a money match. (Also I got a normal superwavedash ->stickywalk ->dash attack to start it off)

Is the boostball (I like that name the best) going to become a part of the new Samus meta?
 

Wreckarooni

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
197
Location
Midwest
http://gfycat.com/WearyMadBordercollie

So I'm finally able to do the aSWD/boostball/rocketboost somewhat consistently. Here's a cool edgeguard I got with it in a money match. (Also I got a normal superwavedash ->stickywalk ->dash attack to start it off)

Is the boostball (I like that name the best) going to become a part of the new Samus meta?
oh my.....REKT. That was one of my favorite Samus moments I've ever seen.

I think bootsballz to Nair would be a pretty amazing edgeguard tool for Samus, it's pretty much too fast to be reacted to and covers a huge distance.
 

GoomySmash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
80
oh my.....REKT. That was one of my favorite Samus moments I've ever seen.

I think bootsballz to Nair would be a pretty amazing edgeguard tool for Samus, it's pretty much too fast to be reacted to and covers a huge distance.
In friendlies I've gotten that quite a few times. In certain situations it's undoubtedly the best option.
 

Litt

Samus
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
1,863
Location
CT
http://gfycat.com/WearyMadBordercollie

So I'm finally able to do the aSWD/boostball/rocketboost somewhat consistently. Here's a cool edgeguard I got with it in a money match. (Also I got a normal superwavedash ->stickywalk ->dash attack to start it off)

Is the boostball (I like that name the best) going to become a part of the new Samus meta?
This is the drawback of the boostball nair, (actually i think bair would have connected there if you started it early enough), if you miss the Boostball, you are sitting on the top plat just letting your opponent get back for free and now they are under you and you have to come down... horrible position. You need 3 frame perfect inputs for boostball, so I can hardly see anyone getting his consistently down, leave this tech for 20xx TAS samus.
 

GoomySmash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
80
This is the drawback of the boostball nair, (actually i think bair would have connected there if you started it early enough), if you miss the Boostball, you are sitting on the top plat just letting your opponent get back for free and now they are under you and you have to come down... horrible position. You need 3 frame perfect inputs for boostball, so I can hardly see anyone getting his consistently down, leave this tech for 20xx TAS samus.
Well in that particular game I attempted to Boost Ball 4 times and I got it twice. That's not consistent enough YET for it to be an overall better strategy than a standard edgeguard, but if you could manage to get it around 80-90% of the time, I think it would be well worth it as a strategy. The same could be argued for wavedashing off to grab ledge, because if you miss you are in a bad position, but people have gotten so consistent at it that it's the overall best option, even if there is a 5% chance you'll mess it up. Eventually I'm going to get consistent enough at the Boost Ball that it will be one of my standard edgeguarding tools.

Also, there's many other useful tactics you can do with the Boost Ball. In friendlies I've gotten edgeguards by Boost Balling off the ledge only a short distance, and then back airing or nairing them into the stage for a stage spike after they've gotten hit by the bomb (it works best against Marths and characters with all vertical recovery). I've also stolen the ledge from a shino stalling shiek from the opposite platform on Dreamland.

The way this game evolves is often that what we once thought was impossible or impractical now becomes standard tech skill for top players. Pivots, multishining, perfect ledge dashes, moonwalking etc have all become standard in today's metagame. Who knows if Boost Ball will be the next big thing for Samus? Sure, it's very difficult to learn, but isn't that the fun of it? At least we know it's possible at this point.
 

Wreckarooni

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
197
Location
Midwest
Well in that particular game I attempted to Boost Ball 4 times and I got it twice. That's not consistent enough YET for it to be an overall better strategy than a standard edgeguard, but if you could manage to get it around 80-90% of the time, I think it would be well worth it as a strategy. The same could be argued for wavedashing off to grab ledge, because if you miss you are in a bad position, but people have gotten so consistent at it that it's the overall best option, even if there is a 5% chance you'll mess it up. Eventually I'm going to get consistent enough at the Boost Ball that it will be one of my standard edgeguarding tools.

Also, there's many other useful tactics you can do with the Boost Ball. In friendlies I've gotten edgeguards by Boost Balling off the ledge only a short distance, and then back airing or nairing them into the stage for a stage spike after they've gotten hit by the bomb (it works best against Marths and characters with all vertical recovery). I've also stolen the ledge from a shino stalling shiek from the opposite platform on Dreamland.

The way this game evolves is often that what we once thought was impossible or impractical now becomes standard tech skill for top players. Pivots, multishining, perfect ledge dashes, moonwalking etc have all become standard in today's metagame. Who knows if Boost Ball will be the next big thing for Samus? Sure, it's very difficult to learn, but isn't that the fun of it? At least we know it's possible at this point.
I like your unique approach and am an advocate of pushing outlier tech, but yea I did notice those failed attempts and some other flubbed experimental tech you were going for in that match. Some of it was pretty useless or sub-optimal and you seemed more focused on trying something new or cool than the fundamentals. Ultimately that's what lost you that set since the other Samus was just spacing well and focusing on getting hits and kills with stuff that he knew worked.

I say keep doing what you're doing since it's fun to watch something unique and when it's successful it's pretty interesting to see. But I think perhaps it's best to use it more sparingly and nail the fundamentals first (if you are interested in winning over discovery).
 

GoomySmash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
80
I like your unique approach and am an advocate of pushing outlier tech, but yea I did notice those failed attempts and some other flubbed experimental tech you were going for in that match. Some of it was pretty useless or sub-optimal and you seemed more focused on trying something new or cool than the fundamentals. Ultimately that's what lost you that set since the other Samus was just spacing well and focusing on getting hits and kills with stuff that he knew worked.

I say keep doing what you're doing since it's fun to watch something unique and when it's successful it's pretty interesting to see. But I think perhaps it's best to use it more sparingly and nail the fundamentals first (if you are interested in winning over discovery).
A very fair criticism. I'm still working on those fundamentals.
 

Narfanator

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
84
Location
San Francisco
Slippi.gg
NARF#806

bubbaking

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
6,895
Location
Baldwin, NY, USA or Alexandria, VA, USA (Pick one)
That was a great video, @ GoomySmash GoomySmash ! I just have one question: Since the boost-ball is just a daughter dash (which can be done at any point of the morph ball form) off the plat, isn't it still only 2 frame-perfect inputs? I would think the first input (away from the intended movement direction) doesn't matter since it could be at any time.
 

GoomySmash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
80
That was a great video, @ GoomySmash GoomySmash ! I just have one question: Since the boost-ball is just a daughter dash (which can be done at any point of the morph ball form) off the plat, isn't it still only 2 frame-perfect inputs? I would think the first input (away from the intended movement direction) doesn't matter since it could be at any time.
If I understand you correctly, you're right that the first input can be held until you decide to daughter dash. So for example you can regular SuperWavedash by doing the "slingshot method" where you bomb, hold left, then press right on frame 42. You can do the same thing with Boost Ball. Bomb, hold left, land on a platform, press right, then hold left and you can Boost Ball like normal. When I was first learning to Boost Ball I tried this method because I thought it would be easier, but for me personally I didn't find it to be optimal.

I don't know about the technicality of calling it 3 frame perfect inputs, but basically the transition from Point 1 to Point 2 back to Point 1 on the control stick needs to be frame perfect.
 

Litt

Samus
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
1,863
Location
CT
I don't know about the technicality of calling it 3 frame perfect inputs, but basically the transition from Point 1 to Point 2 back to Point 1 on the control stick needs to be frame perfect.
I dont know how to break this to you, but from inputting point 1, to point 2 back to point 1... is 3 inputs requiring frame perfection
 

bubbaking

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
6,895
Location
Baldwin, NY, USA or Alexandria, VA, USA (Pick one)
I mean...Goomy is still right. It's 3 inputs, but only 2 perfect movements. The first input can be whenever you want it to be. Everything after that has to be frame perfect, but that's only the movement from point 1 to point 2 and then the movement from point 2 back to point 1. I also have no interest in getting an 'optimal boostball', so this might help me a little...
 

Narfanator

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
84
Location
San Francisco
Slippi.gg
NARF#806
I got months practicing boost ball and nothing...NOTHING!!

WTF is going on!? OK...soo

1)I go to Yoshi's Story put up the bubble data and use full hop then bomb to get to the top platform's edge to position myself.

2A)I'm on the left side of the edge. As I press down (slight to the right) b, I then move to the left to glitch a bit off the platform AND THEN PRESS RIGHT and zoom off to the left???

OR

2B)I'm on the left side of the edge. As I press down (slight to the left)b, I then move to the right to glitch back onto the platform and zoom off to the left??

The daughter dash video says I hold right to go left, but that's counter intuitive.

Here's SuperDoodleMan's Perfect Control 2 for those that haven't seen it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9sa8133NBI
 

GoomySmash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
80
I got months practicing boost ball and nothing...NOTHING!!

WTF is going on!? OK...soo

1)I go to Yoshi's Story put up the bubble data and use full hop then bomb to get to the top platform's edge to position myself.

2A)I'm on the left side of the edge. As I press down (slight to the right) b, I then move to the left to glitch a bit off the platform AND THEN PRESS RIGHT and zoom off to the left???

OR

2B)I'm on the left side of the edge. As I press down (slight to the left)b, I then move to the right to glitch back onto the platform and zoom off to the left??

The daughter dash video says I hold right to go left, but that's counter intuitive.

Here's SuperDoodleMan's Perfect Control 2 for those that haven't seen it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9sa8133NBI
Yes, you do the first one. If you're on the left side of the platform, you drop a bomb, then press right-down, then left (at which point you will "glitch off the platform"/daughter dash to the left), then you press right-down again and you will continue to go left. Practice at 1/4 speed training-mode first, or even better if you have access to frame by frame through Dolphin or 20XX then try doing the inputs in debug mode to get a feel for how it works.

And yeah, the input is pretty counter intuitive and also sort of awkward to execute.

One more thing, I've learned through experience that having a more "loose" control stick/potentiometer makes it so you don't have to move nearly as quickly to get the boost ball. But again, I started by first trying it in frame-by-frame, then attempting at 1/4 speed until I could get it consistently, then 1/2 speed until I could do it consistently, etc.
 

Aftermath

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 23, 2004
Messages
2,136
Location
Portland, OR
I don't know how many people still look at this, but I added your video to the first post Goomy. That was really fun to watch.
 

Archelon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
393
Location
Ontario, Canada
^ I can witness that :)

It seems that when get a technique like this in your "fingermemory" it isn´t that hard to pull of pretty constantly.

btw. I can also do docs upBcancel with about that 70% accurately. it´s easier to perform out of run.
What is the up-b cancel/ how do you perform it? I think I may have seen it once... Thanks!
 

Cavonte

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 19, 2016
Messages
1
So you can launch yourself REALLY far off a ledge with this.



I was messing around with this and i realized it slows you down when you go off a ledge. Because I play Luigi too I considered the idea behind Luigi's voodoo dash that allows him to maintain momentum off an edge. Seeing as in PM Samus's charge animation doesn't change from air to ground, i decided to try the same thing and it works. You need a lot more room than you would for a voodoo dash because you move so much faster, but if you pull it off you get launched off the edge. Same if you just fire a charged shot but you don't travel as far. I'm not sure this works for melee because you can't normally charge your shot in midair, but it should work for firing a fully charged shot. Although interesting, this isn't very useful at all because you fly off the edge way too fast and far to recover, unless on Corneria and launching off the ship peak or some similar scenario.

Just thought i would share this in case people didn't know.
 

derdian

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2014
Messages
65
Location
Florida
GoomySmash GoomySmash

I'm confused about the boost ball mechanic. First of all I see some posts saying you cant let the joystick pass through neutral. Is that actually a thing? Because I've let that happen and still done it. I've never been able to perform it once in real time but can do it consistently in 1/4 speed and most of the time in 1/2 speed. I'm holding the stick straight right, then straight left, then straight right again (depending on direction, i know this isnt the most optimal way to do it but im trying to just do the technique in general). I can also do the daughter dash off the platform consistently in real time but still have never boost balled once. It doesnt seem like it should be a problem with my input speed because converting the daughter dash off platform into boost ball is the same input as super wavedash which I can also do consistently. (I also sometimes bomb to the side of the platform and drift onto it before daughter dashing off, so I'm pretty much only having to do 1 perfect input, but still can't get it this way)

There has to be some kind of trick that I'm missing or something, what do you think I'm doing wrong?
 

GoomySmash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
80
GoomySmash GoomySmash

I'm confused about the boost ball mechanic. First of all I see some posts saying you cant let the joystick pass through neutral. Is that actually a thing? Because I've let that happen and still done it. I've never been able to perform it once in real time but can do it consistently in 1/4 speed and most of the time in 1/2 speed. I'm holding the stick straight right, then straight left, then straight right again (depending on direction, i know this isnt the most optimal way to do it but im trying to just do the technique in general). I can also do the daughter dash off the platform consistently in real time but still have never boost balled once. It doesnt seem like it should be a problem with my input speed because converting the daughter dash off platform into boost ball is the same input as super wavedash which I can also do consistently. (I also sometimes bomb to the side of the platform and drift onto it before daughter dashing off, so I'm pretty much only having to do 1 perfect input, but still can't get it this way)

There has to be some kind of trick that I'm missing or something, what do you think I'm doing wrong?
Well it doesn't matter where your control stick passes through, as long as the game polls that your control stick is in the correct position on the correct frames. In the time in between when the game polls your input, your control stick could be passing through neutral, or in any other position, as long as on the next frame it's in the correct position.

Also, if you do the method where you "drift" onto the platform before you daughter dash it should theoretically work, but I've never done it that way in real time. I think you either misspoke or were incorrect that it's 1 perfect input when you do it that way. It's still 2 frame perfect inputs when done that way. One input to flick away from the platform and another to bring it back to holding into the platform.

The only real tips I can give you is practice very very slowly and patiently and never tense up your muscles. Build up speed as slow as possible. Never jump to higher speed unless you can do it consistently at a slower speed and never have tense muscles. Also, the control stick matters. I've found slightly more worn-in control sticks feel like they don't require you to move as fast.

But in general, there's no real trick besides building up the muscle memory slowly over time. I'd recommend if you're trying to learn it for real that you make the custom notches and practice the optimal way so you build up the muscle memory for it. I can do the optimal method on controllers that don't have custom notches now because I have the muscle memory.
 

ScootsMcGoots

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 3, 2018
Messages
1
Is it possible to drop from a playform and then down b back to the platform and perform a super wave dash? If possible, this can drastically decrease the time needed to perform a super wave dash and can potentially lead into aerials when Samus slides off the platform. Any information on if this is actually possible would be much appreciated.
 
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tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,349
SWD mechanics


Morph ball control physics:

The physics rules for controlling Samus during morph ball are mostly the same both in the air and on the ground, with the acceleration (A) and max horizontal speed (M) constants being different. Other difference is that you lose control of grounded morph ball from frame 43 onward.

The precise rules for influencing horizontal character velocity (v) each frame with horizontal control stick position (x) goes as follows: Let i be the starting x-velocity, v the result velocity and x the control stick x-coordinate for the frame.

  1. If x = 0, then v = 0 (In other words, releasing the stick stops Samus immediately in place.)
  2. Else, v = i + A*x (Acceleration applied according to control stick position)
  3. Then after, if i*x >= 0 and |v| > M*|x|, v = M*x (If Samus holds the same direction she was moving beforehand, her speed will be capped by M*x)

During aerial morph ball, A = 0.275 and M = 0.712. On ground, A = 6.60 and M = 0.80


Why SWD exists:

SWD happens when you hold control stick against your moving direction for the frame 42 of grounded morph ball. Doing so makes you gain a ton of speed that frame, because the grounded acceleration is very high. If done any earlier than frame 42, Samus will slow down on the next frame according to operation (3), which limits her speed. However, when the speed burst occurs on frame 42, that won't happen as her speed can't be controlled anymore from frame 43 onward, and the speed limit is the effect of the control. Instead, Samus just slides in the "unmorph" animation, keeping her previous speed and slowing down a little due to traction.

On Goomyzoomy

The zoomy works because morph ball doesn't limit horizontal speed when you're holding stick against the moving direction (see 3.), and since the acceleration during aerial morph ball is quite low. The traditional zoomy method is:

  1. In morph ball near an edge on ground, hold slightly inward. This makes Samus move slowly inward.
  2. Smash stick the opposite direction. This creates the speed due to the crazy high grounded acceleration. You also need to be close enough to the edge to fall off on that same frame.
  3. On the very next frame, you must be holding inward again. If you successfully fell off and hold inward (opposite to the new direction you're now moving), you'll now decelerate slowly because of the aerial morph balls low acceleration.
This method is very hard to perform, as you need to be able to alternate control stick directions on consequent frames, which requires insanely quick control stick motion. However, I've found an alternative way which can be performed with more reasonable stick inputs:


Zoomland
(zoomy with an "Buffered daughter dash" from landing)



Inputs for zoomland from "standing morphball" on an edge:


1. Down b on an edge.


2. Drift outward at the start.


3. Switch to inward drift so that it makes you land just by the edge, with speed inward.


4. Hold outward right before you land. You cannot afford even a single x deadzone frame.


5.Switch back to inward precisely for the 2nd frame after landing. Continue holding in after.



To zoomland, you need to:
  1. Have speed toward the stage, opposite of the direction you want to fly toward, on the 1st grounded frame after landing.
  2. Hold control stick offstage, toward where you want fly to gain the speed.
  3. Be close enough to the edge to fall off immediately.
  4. Switch control stick to point back toward the stage again precisely the next frame, which is the 2nd frame after landing.
With zoomland, the aerial frames right before landing allow you to "buffer" the burst of speed ("daughter dash") Samus gets by inputting a direction opposite to her velocity in grounded morph ball. That works thanks to the low aerial acceleration: if you fall toward a surface with max horizontal speed, it'll take multiple frames for Samus to reverse the direction of her movement if she continuously holds back. Thus, from full speed inward, you can start holding the opposite direction a tiny moment before she lands, and then she daughter dashes on her 1st grounded frame after landing. Note that if there's even a single frame where your stick is in the horizontal deadzone before it reaches direction opposite to Samuses velocity, she stops immediately. That ruins the zoomland, as then Samus will start moving outward, and therefore she won't daughter dash after landing.

This zoomland method essentially replaces the requirement for very quick stick movement with a timing requirement (frame perfect), which makes it more similar with SWD. It's still obviously very difficult, as it requires an elaborate setup for good spacing and speed when Samus lands, in addition to getting the timing correct. From standing morph ball, the last shift in directions from outward to inward (the frame precise aspect) needs to happen from frame 38 to 39, which is 3 frames earlier than SWD smash input timing. You can also zoomland from other setups, like after running off of an edge. To succeed, you always need to have speed inward as you land, hold outward for the very first frame after landing and, and hold inward again after the 2nd frame.
 
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