Data Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: The Mysterious Mr. L

Amazing Ampharos

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#1
Welcome to the official Smashboards Standard Custom Set project. In brief, this project is designed to be a logistical solution to using custom movesets in tournaments by filling many of the in-game slots with the most popular and powerful sets for each character so they can be quickly selected without further 3ds import. This will allow tournaments with customizations on to save large amounts of time throughout the event. More details about the project's ideas and mission can be found here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

Our goal here is to find out what the most popular and powerful sets are for your particular character the best way we know how: asking you the mains of this character. To be clear, we're not talking about disallowing any particular custom sets or even imposing any rules in general; we're talking about making sure the popular and powerful options are simply accessible quickly in a tournament environment as our sole mission. We need up to three critical sets that represent the best options your character has that have wide general utility and from there to fill up to slot 6 with supplemental movesets that will cover less mainstream, more match-up specific, or even teams sets. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow all moves to be explored more easily in the new metagame, and slots 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import of non-standard sets.

Please list all movesets in the order NSUD, that is neutral special, side special, up special, and down special. This four digit code will be the naming convention so players can quickly and easily identify which moveset is which.

I know for many characters the default moveset, 1111, is a powerful and useful option. However, it should not be included; the game allows default to be picked regardless of what custom options are prepared so including it does not add any additional options to players.

I further know that some characters may find six slots a large number to fill. Others may find six very limiting. Do your best to pick out the overall six most likely to be picked even if some good stuff has to be left on the table or if some more experimental sets have to be included to fill out six. Every set included is time saved in tournament when that set would be picked, and we want to make the best use we can of these slots.

I would ask that everyone please be respectful of each other's opinions; this game is young, and the metagame is still very much forming so we are likely to each perceive it differently. This project will be revisited throughout the game's lifespan and revised to properly include the most mainstream movesets at the time. What we want for now is what will be commonly selected for now, and don't worry, other options are not being discriminated against as those last two slots are left open for 3ds transfer for a reason. This first version of this project will be refined throughout the rest of the year, but I hope to have a very rough draft up and usable by December 5 so TOs who wish to use the results of this project will have something to plug in for that weekend's worth of events. Thank you for your cooperation in this project, and we look forward to making sure the most useful options are quickly available for your character under this system.
 

hey_there

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#2
My preferred sets are 1231 and 2231. 1231 is the main one I use, and 2231 for certain match ups.

EDIT: I think 1212 and 1312 are popular, but obviously I can't speak for everyone.
 
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popsofctown

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#3
I played some Luigi against CPU9 to study his custom specials because I was concerned he might be under-discussed. My opinion should be kinda lowly weighted since I didn't play humans.

Fire balls 1 and 2 are good in their own ways. 1 is faster, 2 lets you shorthop them while retreating and still hit a grounded target so it camps better. 1 probably goes better with default Tornado better than 2 does because you'll be on the ground more.
Freezing fireball has better effect on hit, but fireballs in general are for manipulating your opponent. In competitve play you should expect almost all to get shielded so 1 and 2 are better.

hey_there seems to disagree but my analysis found Floating Missile to be the worst missile by a lot so I'm really surprised and confused. Quick missile is fast enough to hit an opponent, but it does such little damage that the reward is too low for attempting it when it's so unsafe on block. Quick Missile however is the most useful for recovery, naturally, so it seems to have a niche that way. Default missile does the most damage on a lucky misfire and lucky misfires are the best use for the move besides recovery if you can space it and set it up in away that a normal uncharged shot is pretty safe. Neither Quick Missile nor Default Missile's misfires can be shielded on reaction so why not take the one with more kill power?
Floating missile doesn't recover as well as Quick Missile and has the damage penalty on misfires so I don't see the point in the move. I'm hoping there's something I'm missing here and it's not just being used like Skull Bash for lowbrow play that won't work at high levels.

I didn't like Up B3. I think it's a move that looks like it has lots of merits and uses but it's in the same slot as Shoryuken, one of the best punishers in the game. It does offer a legitimate alternative playstyle since it seems like a serviceable move, a bit like Yoshi's hip drop with much better payoff, but I think it should be in the minority since options like that for reads and neutral are a dime a dozen and frame (3? 4? not sure) kill punishers are rare.
Up B1 seems strictly worse than UpB2 since Luigi recovers so well with his other specials so the vertical distance shouldn't matter. If there's a knockback or damage reduction that's not indicated by the tooltip, that could swing things back in upB1's favor, but otherwise UpB2 should reign. The low height might even mean it recovers faster. Needs to be labbed on both mechanics.

Down B1 is a decent approaching move but seems nerfed from Brawl. Down B2 is a useless offensive move that guarantees you will never fail to recover, ever, no matter what other specials you took. Down B3 confuses me but is probably bad. On the ground, why not use a normal? In the air, why not use nair? I think it's the same as Doc's and that's who the developers intended it for.

The sets I'd recommend are
1121 - Default weegee with up B strict* upgrade.
2122 - Camp weegee
1321 - Like the first set, but with extra recovery power

Again, I do see the merit in offering a set with up B3, I don't know what you do with the other three slots in such a set.
 

Swoops

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#4
I played some Luigi against CPU9 to study his custom specials because I was concerned he might be under-discussed. My opinion should be kinda lowly weighted since I didn't play humans.

Fire balls 1 and 2 are good in their own ways. 1 is faster, 2 lets you shorthop them while retreating and still hit a grounded target so it camps better. 1 probably goes better with default Tornado better than 2 does because you'll be on the ground more.
Freezing fireball has better effect on hit, but fireballs in general are for manipulating your opponent. In competitve play you should expect almost all to get shielded so 1 and 2 are better.

hey_there seems to disagree but my analysis found Floating Missile to be the worst missile by a lot so I'm really surprised and confused. Quick missile is fast enough to hit an opponent, but it does such little damage that the reward is too low for attempting it when it's so unsafe on block. Quick Missile however is the most useful for recovery, naturally, so it seems to have a niche that way. Default missile does the most damage on a lucky misfire and lucky misfires are the best use for the move besides recovery if you can space it and set it up in away that a normal uncharged shot is pretty safe. Neither Quick Missile nor Default Missile's misfires can be shielded on reaction so why not take the one with more kill power?
Floating missile doesn't recover as well as Quick Missile and has the damage penalty on misfires so I don't see the point in the move. I'm hoping there's something I'm missing here and it's not just being used like Skull Bash for lowbrow play that won't work at high levels.

I didn't like Up B3. I think it's a move that looks like it has lots of merits and uses but it's in the same slot as Shoryuken, one of the best punishers in the game. It does offer a legitimate alternative playstyle since it seems like a serviceable move, a bit like Yoshi's hip drop with much better payoff, but I think it should be in the minority since options like that for reads and neutral are a dime a dozen and frame (3? 4? not sure) kill punishers are rare.
Up B1 seems strictly worse than UpB2 since Luigi recovers so well with his other specials so the vertical distance shouldn't matter. If there's a knockback or damage reduction that's not indicated by the tooltip, that could swing things back in upB1's favor, but otherwise UpB2 should reign. The low height might even mean it recovers faster. Needs to be labbed on both mechanics.

Down B1 is a decent approaching move but seems nerfed from Brawl. Down B2 is a useless offensive move that guarantees you will never fail to recover, ever, no matter what other specials you took. Down B3 confuses me but is probably bad. On the ground, why not use a normal? In the air, why not use nair? I think it's the same as Doc's and that's who the developers intended it for.

The sets I'd recommend are
1121 - Default weegee with up B strict* upgrade.
2122 - Camp weegee
1321 - Like the first set, but with extra recovery power

Again, I do see the merit in offering a set with up B3, I don't know what you do with the other three slots in such a set.
I disagree with a lot of this.

Fireball 1 is the best choice. Great horizontal control, solid recovery, 6% through the whole animation, you can place it anywhere during a short hop to limit different characters and chuck them at reasonable speed. Iceball is second in terms of usefulness. It's not just about the freezing, it's how long they last on screen, and how you can have two out at once. Freezing is just a side benefit, and one that makes the opponent a lot more hesitant to get hit. Extra follow ups is great for weegee who needs all that damage to get to dthrow > upB/nair kill percents. I don't dislike fireball 2, it has a neat trajectory, but I see it as a downgrade from his other too. Feels like a poor mans Mario fireball, and even Marios will often go the the fast straight fireball over their neutral one even though it does like 2% max. Lag feels equal to iceball if not more and you can't get them out as fast.

Missile customs don't matter much outside of recovery. Really it's just preference. Would you rather go balls out just to get back near the stage, quick missile is for you. Want to take your time and have less ending lag to worry about getting tagged, go with floating missile. Want to just keep your original misfire, missile 1.

Up B 2 is pretty much a straight downgrade from the original in my mind. Granted I haven't messed around with it too much, but the lack of kill power easily strikes it out for me. DThrow > UpB is too good to pass up and you're getting the same risk, with less power and recovery for easier sweet spot with upB2. No thank you :/. If I'm not seeing something let me know, but UpB1 just seems superior. UpB3 on the other hand I can see used in some sets, just to switch up his playstyle and I can see it working somewhat well with iceball freezing. Personally I would still use the original.

DownB1 is still a fantastic disrupter, with great horizontal trajectory that can surprise opponents, and can still rise without a double jump (apparently.) DownB2 is perfectly acceptable for a recovery tool, but you lose a valuable GTFO disrupter. Nair can achieve that to some degree though, but you have to play a little more careful. I agree that downb 3 is pretty trash.
 
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popsofctown

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#5
I didn't know whether UpB1 had extra damage. The tooltip implied it had the same damage so I just assumed it was the same.
I can buy pretty much everything you said.
 

hey_there

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#6
If my custom builds look weird, it's because 1111 Luigi is already a badass and none of his customs straight up outclass his defaults. When I go custom it's because I feel I gotta change my playstyle and go for the benefits of burial header. In losing dthrow -> up b, I get better recovery/off-stage game, a mix-up, and burial -> angled fsmash. Burial header works best with floating missile so I stack them together*.

I agree with pretty much all of what Swoops said. The other fireballs might be useful/preferred in certain match ups but b1 is just so good. All the benefits of default cyclone aren't worth losing for the customs. The missiles are basically preference. Up b1 and up b3 are play pretty differently and both have merits to be worth the slot.

*I say this because floating missile flies completely horizontally and has the least ending lag, so you can reliably stay near the bottom of the screen before shooting up with burial header, completely bypassing pretty much all attempts at edge guarding.
 

Swoops

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#7
With all that said, I would say the sets are:

1211

1312

1112

These are his recovery sets and probably the only critical ones. Allows missile and cyclone to be swapped for preference. The rest of the sets are mostly experimental, and can have their missiles tweaked for preference, but I don't think they're losing anything by not having missile or down b customs.

3131 - for science! (1131?)

3111 - fireball custom

2111 - fireball custom

...

These sets are completely up for debate. My thought process was that since fireball and upb1 are generally pretty superior, and that recovery is purely preference, the three crucial sets would cover pretty much any recovery preference any weegee would have.
 

Lavani

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#8
sideB feels like the only move worth changing, unless you can't mash and want the recovery from downB 2. I feel there's little reason to take Floating Missile over Quick Missile. Default upB feels too good to change (though I could see merit to upB 3) and the other fireballs seem lackluster to me.

That said:

1311
1312
1112

which I guess mostly just backs up what @ Swoops Swoops said.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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#9
It looks like Swoops has a good set of criticals in place that will make most Luigis happy (unless we really need 1311?), but it seems like missile variants at least are going to be more mainstream than default missile so would picking a variant for the supplementals to go alongside the fireball customs and up 3 be better? Perhaps 1231, 2311, and 3311?
 

Swoops

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#10
sideB feels like the only move worth changing, unless you can't mash and want the recovery from downB 2. I feel there's little reason to take Floating Missile over Quick Missile. Default upB feels too good to change (though I could see merit to upB 3) and the other fireballs seem lackluster to me.
I feel like the main reason to use floating missile in certain matches is the heavy recovery on quick missile, making his recovery even more predictable and super easy to heavy punishes on. I could be wrong, but the quick missile is a lot of commitment and and doesn't really threaten as much as something like Flare Blitz. Aside from that I'm okay with using it in some sets for experimentation.

It looks like Swoops has a good set of criticals in place that will make most Luigis happy (unless we really need 1311?), but it seems like missile variants at least are going to be more mainstream than default missile so would picking a variant for the supplementals to go alongside the fireball customs and up 3 be better? Perhaps 1231, 2311, and 3311?
I'm okay with putting missile variants on the supplemental customs, provided quick missile misfire is pretty similar to Green misfire
 

Lavani

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#11
I'm okay with putting missile variants on the supplemental customs, provided quick missile misfire is pretty similar to Green misfire
25%>20% damage and slightly less KBG, but it flies about the length of FD (and skids even further than that) and KOs Mario from the starting position at 85%.
 

Yonder

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#13
Realistically, the only custom Luigi absolutely needs is Quick Missile. You can also say Mach for recovery, but I love the attacking prowess of cyclone and it's approach ability too much to give it up. I can still make it back most the time with default cyclone. I also hear good things about burial header, but Up B with the increased hitbox is growing on me more and more.

So in short 1,2,1,1
 

GreenFlame

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#14
Realistically, the only custom Luigi absolutely needs is Quick Missile. You can also say Mach for recovery, but I love the attacking prowess of cyclone and it's approach ability too much to give it up. I can still make it back most the time with default cyclone. I also hear good things about burial header, but Up B with the increased hitbox is growing on me more and more.

So in short 1,2,1,1
You can also make use of Bouncing Fireball (B 2) for some match-ups, but personally I prefer default. I also agree with you about cyclone, though I wish default was easier to rise with, and I agree with you about missile as well.

I really cannot see the use for his Up-B's though. Up-B 2, while having an easier to land sweetspot, reduces recovery and largely reduces the knockback dealt by the sweetspot.
I consider Up-B 3 kind of pointless, sacrificing the sweetspot for a faster jump and the ability to damage and bury on the way down. That sweetspot gives the ability to kill early, I think it's good for Luigi.


In the end, the only sets I can see that give Luigi some sort of good change are ones that aren't with B 3, Side-B 2, Up-B 2 and 3, and Down-B 3. My personal set would probably be 1211.
 
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hey_there

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#15
I feel like the main reason to use floating missile in certain matches is the heavy recovery on quick missile, making his recovery even more predictable and super easy to heavy punishes on.
^This. Once the surprise of a longer travelling, quicker missile wears off against a confident opponent, she/he is just gonna run off stage and knock/spike you while you're busy in cool down or, very often, stuck in the stage. I really don't understand what everyone sees in it. Is the advantage of a longer missile really worth the massive end lag, weaker damage, and overall vulnerability?

Floating missile travels slightly more than Luigi missile when both are uncharged, slightly less than Luigi missile when both are fully charged, charges twice as fast, and has less end lag. The downsides are a more predictable trajectory and less damage.

I've already ranted about Up B3 before and I think it's worth investigating further. In my experience with it, I've found it to be very useful and offer some distinct advantages.
 

ThunderSt0rm

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#16
As long as 1312 (assuming that's default fireball, quick missle, default upb, mach cyclone) makes it as one of the sets idc what the other 2 are.

Only upb3 should be considered out of upb options (if you want to be gimmicky) because upb 2 is a weak easy mode default upb that you shouldn't need in the first place.

Quick missle (as well as any missle option) is solely for recovery. You shouldn't be trying to approach or punish with sideb anyway.

Default fireball is good and I have no complaints with it. The move is good and isn't super simple for someone to solve if you use it correctly.

Downb should have a set for both Mach Cyclone and default cyclone. Mach Cyclone is primarily recovery but is also an amazing edgeguarding/offstage tool. Default cyclone is a good option onstage while also allowing recovery (but not nearly as much as Mach Cyclone.
 
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hey_there

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#17
This is what is posted in the initial release thread:

Luigi :4luigi:

Critical Sets:

1211
1312
1112

Supplemental Sets:

1231
2311
3311

I think it looks good. I think we all got what we wanted. He even threw in an Up 3 build =P.
 

ThunderSt0rm

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#18
I partially disagree at the lack of a 1311 set. I see no reason for default Missle to even be on a set when is it way inferior than both Floaty Missle and Quick Missle. Quick Missle just seems like the only missle option worth using because of how much better it is at recovery than the other two. The fact that an uncharged Quick Missle goes just as far (if not farther) as a fully charged default or Floaty Missle (same goes for default and Floaty misfires) says everything.

While the 1311 set would be very similar to the 1312 set, having default cyclone in addition to Quick Missle would differentiate it enough solely due to default cyclone's utility onstage. Plus imo the 1311 set would be superior to the 1211 set that's currently under critical sets.
 
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Rakurai

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#19
Floating Missile charges to max much faster then the Quick Missile when smashed (I estimate less then half a second), to the point where it can actually be a practical offensive option for punishing landing lag at a distance.

It also hits harder both damage and knockback wise.
 
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#20
I have a set designed to maximize Luigi's camp potential,
though I'm too sure how effective it'll really be.

2232.

You use the Mach Cyclone to rise high into the air, where
you can start raining Bouncing Fireballs. To escape, you can stall
your falling with Floating Missile while moving closer to the edge,
where Burial Header can snap to it quickly. And you still have
your second jump after rising with Mach.
 

busken

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#21
I think neutral B custom number 2: Bouncing Fireball is probably one of his best custom move.

Wave bouncing

Wave bouncing is a term used to describe when a player changes their direction in midair and simultaneously using their special move. This allows Luigi to run with his fireball and lock most characters into only 5 options, all of which are punishable.
  1. Roll If the opponent decides to roll in either direction you can follow up with a dash attack which has a good amount of knockback for you to not get punished.
2. Jump If the opponent decides to jump while the fireball is coming you can do a Luigi cyclone propelling yourself in the air and hitting them as well.

3. Spot dodge Though an unlikely option as it is completely punishable, if the opponent decides to spot dodge you can follow up with a dash attack or a Luigi cyclone.

4. Shield If the opponent decides to shield you can follow up with a grab. This is probably the most deadly set-up option as Luigi's down throw can link into any aerial which easily allows you to rack up damage.

5. Run While you are doing the wave bounce and the opponent runs towards you, you can do a Luigi Cyclone. This can still punish dash dances and b-reversals. If the opponent runs away from you can follow up with a dash attack or a Luigi cyclone.

Wave bouncing is really important because if you can read your opponent's habits you can punish them almost every time, and if they catch on you can just mix-up your punish options, or just don't follow up at all and see how they react. Some characters like Sonic, Pikachu, etc can avoid this via Up-B so keep that in mind.


Edge guarding


With Luigi's high jump and adequate spacing you can actually use the bouncing fireballs to edge guard your opponent.

Spacing and timing is key while using this because bad typing will cause you this miss, and bad spacing will not even allow the move to have a chance to connect. Good ways to use this is using the fireball and quickly dropping down for the aerial of choice, or just spamming the move pressuring their recovery and gimping them. There are plenty of more options you can use so get creative and find ways to abuse your move the best and exploit your opponents weaknesses.

Overall, I think this bouncing fireball definitely has a niche over his other neutral b's and shouldn't be overlooked.
 

hey_there

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#22
Looking over the Luigi custom builds again, they definitely need to be revised. Specifically, down b2 needs to removed from all of Luigi's critical sets. I can't imagine any serious, good Luigi player giving up the default cyclone -- it's just too good. It gives much needed horizontal mobility, it's a mix-up, it's an approach, it's an escape, it can punish rolls, it can start or continue a juggle, it can be true combo'd into from dthrow for KOs, it can edge guard, and it helps with recovery. It's the swiss army knife in Luigi's tool box. Admittedly, down b2 has great knockback if you can land the hit, and the recovery is nice, but overall it's still eclipsed by down b1.

As has previously been stated, b1 is best in almost every match up, though b2 does have its own unique merits that make it decent in certain match ups. b3 is generally a worse b1, coming out slower and doing less damage in exchange for a freezing effect. <- NVM B3 IS THE BEST HOLY MOLY IT'S GOOD. Up b1 outclasses up b2 and is usually preferred to up b3 (upb 3 is actually really cool and underrated imo). Side b2 is almost a straight upgrade to side b1. It has less end lag, charges faster, travels the same distance, and hits at a better angle which has the effect of KOing at the same %s as side b1 despite the lower base knockback. Side b3 has ridiculous end lag, but it has its merits for recovery. Taking all this in consideration, the critical sets should be:

1211
1311

The supplemental sets, which are "more for counterpicking or to suit less common preferences," should be the home of any build with down b2 for a token recovery set like 1312 or 1332, though I strongly argue that down b1 should always be used. The supplemental sets should include b2 and/or b3 and maybe up b3. For now I think the supplemental sets should be something like:

2311
2211
3311
1231

If people want 1312 or something else with down b2 over the supplemental sets I won't fight against it but I predict those sets will eventually fall out of favour. Luigi already has a hard enough time approaching, let alone without the option for cyclone.


EDIT: @ DunnoBro DunnoBro is right, b3 really is the best.
 
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DunnoBro

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#23
I actually talked to boss about custom luigi and played his, really surprised ice fireballs got no love here because they're absolutely amazing and probably the best.

Essentially, due to the lingering, closer hitbox, and the release time from the ice at higher percents, it actually sets up for combos and kill moves at higher percents. Almost specifically when downthrow combos begin to become iffy, though generally throwing out a nair is the catch-all option, can kill if timed right, but the lingering hitbox can still catch them. Most of the combos arise when short hopping with momentum, in the direction you're firing the iceball, and jumping over them with an aerial if it connects. It isn't really worth using while standin on the ground, or without a jump unless it's just for spacing. They also set up well for grabs in the neutral.

Furthermore, they always put opponents higher on a stage with platforms, it generally helps put them in a bad situation against a char with superb platform pressure like luigi.

I personally like all three sidebs, though with default my favorite. Essentially, against characters with edgeguard games that require them to go deep offstage like sheik, metaknight, kirby, etc I'd prefer quick to get back to the stage asap and hopefully avoid their aerials. But against edgeguard games like dhd, ganon, and donkey kong with a lot of disjoint or lingering hitboxes, I'd rather have a less set distance since he needs to mix it up more so the default is better. Also the default's misfire is actually a real threat so I'd prefer to have it as an offensive option.

Floaty is mostly for use with the head bury upb. Not sure how legit it is yet but the head bury is more usable in certain matchups and has some nice set-ups/frame traps, so if I discover it makes a big difference, I'd probably go with floaty to make up for the nerf to my recovery. The other luigi nado that makes you rise more is awful aside from recovery, and the default is amazing for landing, killing, and tons of options. It simply is too good to give up.

I feel like head bury might only be worth it on a stage with platforms to frame trap opponents after ice balls. The straight down hitbox is perfect for following up after they mash out, can hit them in the air straight up, or punish their air dodge more realistically with platforms they could land on, resulting in them getting grounded on a platform for a upsmash. Biiig damage.

I'm no luigi master by any means, but I think I'd use the following sets:

3111
3311
3231

3111 for generally superior luigi imo. 3311 for when my recovery on the general set isn't quite right. The speed and charge time of quick missile make it harder to punish generally than float, and provide the distance and quick recovery needed against many chars. 3231 when my on-stage game should be the focus. Or otherwise against characters with narrow hurtboxes, hard to punish rolls, or in general difficulty using the default upb on them.
 
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hey_there

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#24
really surprised ice fireballs got no love here because they're absolutely amazing and probably the best.
My thoughts on iceballs were informed from around when the game first came out and I wrote them off as inferior. After reading your post I decided to revisit them at a get together yesterday and holy crap they are amazing. I was totally wrong. They're so much better than the other two it's completely ridiculous. It's seriously hard to go back to playing with regular fireballs when the iceballs are so much more cool =3. They completely outclass the default, and while I suspect there may be niche match ups for the bouncing fireballs, iceballs should probably be on every custom build.

Also the default's misfire is actually a real threat so I'd prefer to have it as an offensive option.
Floating missile misfire kills at roughly the same percent as the default (~2-3% difference) because it sends opponents at a more horizontal angle. This also makes it easier to edge guard if you send the opponent off stage with a missile, though that opportunity doesn't come up very often. It charges twice as fast and has less end lag, so it has better utility for recovering than the default imo. Charging up twice as fast also means that it takes less charging time to deal more damage if used offensively. These are pretty much all the reasons I like floating better than default. What missile does Boss use?
 

DunnoBro

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#25
My thoughts on iceballs were informed from around when the game first came out and I wrote them off as inferior. After reading your post I decided to revisit them at a get together yesterday and holy crap they are amazing. I was totally wrong. They're so much better than the other two it's completely ridiculous. It's seriously hard to go back to playing with regular fireballs when the iceballs are so much more cool =3. They completely outclass the default, and while I suspect there may be niche match ups for the bouncing fireballs, iceballs should probably be on every custom build.


Floating missile misfire kills at roughly the same percent as the default (~2-3% difference) because it sends opponents at a more horizontal angle. This also makes it easier to edge guard if you send the opponent off stage with a missile, though that opportunity doesn't come up very often. It charges twice as fast and has less end lag, so it has better utility for recovering than the default imo. Charging up twice as fast also means that it takes less charging time to deal more damage if used offensively. These are pretty much all the reasons I like floating better than default. What missile does Boss use?
Didn't notice the horizontal angle on it. Very interesting.

Boss mostly just uses default Luigi with ice fireballs, he doesn't play with customs often so he only uses default missile. I asked him which he thought was best and he thought one of the other two were probably better, but he didn't want to bother learning them while we played.

But yea, ice balls are ridiculous. Luigi gets an insanely scary ice ball wall/grab mix-up and pressure game at high percents.
 

Ultima 3

Smash Cadet
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Messages
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#26
Neutral B
Fireball: Shoots straight. Does 6%. Medium range.
Bouncing Fireball: Lose's momentum after each bounce. Bounce height become lower after each bounce. Bounces 4 times before disappearing. Does 6%. After first bounce, does 5%. After the second, does 4%. When used in the air, bounces 3 times from short hop height and twice from heigher before disappearing. Depending on how high it's shot, does 6% from a short hop height, 5% from full jump height, 4% from double jump height. Perfect blocking makes it bounce off shield.
Iceball: Shoots straight. Does 4%. Short range. Freezes at 42%.

Side B
Green Missile: Takes 3 seconds to fully charge. Holding charge too long makes you stop. Longer the charge greater the damage, distance and knockback. Minimum 9%. Maximum 21%. KO move. Near edge at 90%, in the centre at 110%. Misfire 25%, high knockback. KO move. Near edge at 50%, in the centre at 70%.
Floating Missile: Takes 2 seconds to fully charge. Holding charge too long makes you stop. Longer the charge greater the damage, distance and knockback. Minimum 10%. Maximum 18%. KO move. Near the edge at 100%, in the centre at 120%. Misfire 23%, high knockback. KO move. Near the edge at 60%, in the centre at 70%.
Quick Missile Takes 3 seconds to fully charge. Holding charge to long makes you stop. Longer the charge greater the damage, distance and knockback. Flies extremely far. Slides across the floor if you do not hit anything. Minimum 8%. In the air, minimum of 5%. Maximum 20%. KO move. Near the edge at 110%, in the centre at 120%. Misfire 20%. KO move. Near edge at 80%, in the centre at 110%.

Up B
Super Jump Punch: Jumps straight up. Starting Hit 25%, high Knockback. KO move at 70%. Latter hit 1%.
Fiery Jump Punch: Jumps straight up. Very short distance. Starting Hit 18%. KO move at 120%. Latter hit 1%.
Burial Header: Jumps straight up. Descends very quickly. Upward hit 1%. Donwards hit 8%. Buries grounded opponents. Hits away aerial opponents. KO move. Near the edge at 190%, in the centre Sudden Death KO move.

Down B
Luigi Cyclone: Hits maximum of 5 times. Initial hit does 1%. Each hit from 2nd to 4th does 1.5%. (Even numbers hits will do 2%, odd numbers hits will do 1%). Final hit 3%. Rapidly pressing B rises you into the air a fair bit. Can move far horizontally on the ground. Doesn't move as far horizontally in the air. KO move. In the air at 130%, on the ground at 200%.
Mach Cyclone: Rapidly pressing B rises you very far into the air. Hardly any horizontal movement. Final hit does 6%, high knockback. Has a pushback effect whilst spinning. KO move. Near the edge at 100%, in the air at 130% and in the centre at 160%.
Clothesline Cyclone: Cannot rise into the air. Can move horizontally. All hits do 8%. Spinning hits, decent knockback. KO move. Near the edge at 200%, in the centre Sudden Death KO move. Final hit, high knockback. KO move at 120%.

Now I dunno.
3211 is probably my go to. Floating Missile is quicker and can still do decent KO damage
I attempted trying to use Iceball, and got the hang of it. They give Luigi some good close range space control. They're pretty good.

Mach Cyclone can also be considered for me I guess. And Burial header might go the highest I believe, except you've got the sharp drop.

So 3211
1211
3212
1212

Quick missile shoots the farthest but not fond of the slide
 
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FEFIZ

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#27
Well, customs will be legal in EVO 2015. I like 1311 or 1211.
 
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Yonder

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#28
I definitely need more practice with customs, but Luigi doesn't benefit massively from them imo [Unless you want to make his recovery amazing with quick missile and mach tornado]

I'd use 3211 probably. I hear iceballs are the best Luigi custom by far but I haven't been able to implement them very well. Anyone got good Luigi vids using customs?
 

hey_there

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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#29
So it looks like for EVO every character has to have 10 presets since there won't be any uploading. This is what we have already:

Luigi :4luigi:

1211
1312
1311
1231
2311
3311

When I play I use the set @ Y Yonder mentioned, 3211, which isn't currently included but should be. I also play with 3231 depending on the match up, but much less frequently than 3211. I think some people might prefer 3111 though, so I could see that being added as well. I think 3231 should go over 1231 for the token Burial Header set. The only match I can think of off the top of my head that I'd prefer the default Fireballs is against Rosalina, and against Rosalina Burial Header isn't as useful as the early kills from SJP in my experience, so I don't think anyone will care if 1231 -> 3231. I think I've been underrating Mach Cyclone, but I don't have much experience with it against good opponents, so I'm not sure if the current builds with it are best or if different builds would be better.

Anyway, my suggested changes to an updated list would be: +3211, +3111, 1232 -> 3231.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
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#30
We can use up to 10 slots for EVO purposes; two of the slots will be designated as less important for the sake of tournaments that allow import of player builds (and that's relatively less important to stress).

I'm thinking right now with Luigi of adding 3211, 3312, and 3212 along with perhaps 3111. I would be fine with swapping 1232 with 3231 if that's what the Luigis want. It sounds like the biggest development since last time is an awakening to the power of Ice Balls. Definitely talk it over and let us know what you're thinking is best; we want to make sure Luigi has access to everything he'll need at the national stage.
 

FEFIZ

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#31
Guys, after testing alot his customs, for me all specials need be default but Side B can be Floating Missile or Quick Missile. Which one is the best? Because I'm using 1211 and 1311.
 

hey_there

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
269
#32
Guys, after testing alot his customs, for me all specials need be default but Side B can be Floating Missile or Quick Missile. Which one is the best? Because I'm using 1211 and 1311.
1211 and 1311 are already on the list of custom builds. I also strongly recommend using Iceballs. They do take some adjustment in playstyle but they make so many match ups much, much easier for Luigi (Yoshi and Sonic come to mind) by limiting your opponent's space and consequently, their options. Despite being so slow, they actually let Luigi attack much more aggressively.
 

FEFIZ

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#33
1211 and 1311 are already on the list of custom builds. I also strongly recommend using Iceballs. They do take some adjustment in playstyle but they make so many match ups much, much easier for Luigi (Yoshi and Sonic come to mind) by limiting your opponent's space and consequently, their options. Despite being so slow, they actually let Luigi attack much more aggressively.
I will test the neutral ice, but which one: Floating Missile or Quick Missile? I'm using more Floating Missile.
 
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Swoops

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#34
3211 is definitely the go to set to include, as well as 3111. I actually think that in general we should always include either neutral 1 or 3, and just scrap 2.

Missile 2 seems like the best. Can stall recovery the best and seems like less commitment than either of the other missiles.
 

FEFIZ

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#35
Yeah. Luigi need his Up B and Down B defaut, they are the best by far. In neutral B you can chose bettewen 1 and 3, the same with Side B bettewen 2 and 3. So: 1211 - 1311 - 3211 - 3311 are the top 4. I'm using 1211.
 

hey_there

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#36
So how does everyone feel about this?

Luigi :4luigi:

1211
1311
3111
3211

3311
1312
3212
3312

2311
3231

3X11 is all there along with 1X11. The niche Burial Header set definitely goes much better with Iceballs, so its changed to 3231 over 1231. I threw in a few Iceball + Mach Cyclone sets in case someone wants the extra recovery. I don't know which build would best make use of Bouncing Fireball, but I can't think of anything else that might go over it. Does anyone want/have a set that isn't mentioned in these 10?
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
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#38
Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
Luigi:

1211, 1311, 3111, 3211, 3311, 1312, 3212, 3312, 2311, 3231

@ hey_there hey_there posted that over two weeks ago to no complaints. It covers everything I intuitively would want to include in Luigi's sets and seemingly everything everyone has asked for. Do we need to change anything before we ship it?
 

kesterstudios

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#39
I don't play luigi, but I remember playing against one online who was using the iceballs and I have to say they were more annoying than the regular fireballs. this is most likely because they move slower, which makes approaching luigi harder. I think luigi mains should use this move.
 
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
39
#40
I don't play luigi, but I remember playing against one online who was using the iceballs and I have to say they were more annoying than the regular fireballs. this is most likely because they move slower, which makes approaching luigi harder. I think luigi mains should use this move.
I don't know about this. The move has more start up lag and does less damage. I see what you mean by it can be more annoying, but I don't think I'll be using Iceballs that often.
 
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