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Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

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freezy

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omg, those pro players arguing against custom moves at evo just because they aren't the standard now (if we dont start using them they will never become the standard...), or that the argument that they only want to strengthen the community by denying customs... They don't seem to understand that custom moves being at Evo is really important for the community and would help it alot.

Let's face it, the current standard Smash 4 gameplay is regarded as boring by many viewers or the FGC at large. Just research all the Apex coverage, even journalists who don't play Smash were bored by the Smash4 Top8 in contrast to the Melee Top. If we get more Top8s like Apex it will hurt the growth of the Smash4 scene imo.

Thats why custom moves are so important, they would really hype things up. Gameplay would be deeper and characters more versatile. Plus the additional meta of selecting a good custom build and the surrounding strategies would be very interesting. I think Smash 4 could have a much stronger showing at Evo with custom moves enabled, helping the community much more than sticking to the current standard.
Also: When there won't be custom moves at Evo this year, there never will be. What is banned once, stays banned, the history of the smash games prove that. So now is the time to experiment with it. Everyone has still many months time to figure out custom moves and train with them, so the time argument is irrelevant aswell.

So please, everyone keep pushing for customs and convince all the TOs. Also make sure everyone fully understands this custom moves project, there is still much misinformation going around. And TOs should be more creative regarding implementing them, I read about fears of prolonged set time because of all the move counterpicking, but just implement a rule that prevents that, just like there are rules for character and stage counterpicking.
 
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deepseadiva

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Kong Kopter is dumb oh man.

I thought Tornado was gone in this game. The specter still haunts us. :metaknight:
 

DunnoBro

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@ DunnoBro DunnoBro @ ParanoidDrone ParanoidDrone

While there's not much way I can help with customs other than giving my support (because I absolutely LOVE customs), I do have every custom move, along with a capture card. I've spent quite some time labbing the past few days (mainly for Kirby), so I can easily record some custom combos to help out. I could either make a post on DunnoBro's reddit posts as an extra combo, or make my own posts for it, to spread more awareness about them. This is just an idea, so if DunnoBro doesn't need/want help, then I'll just go back to supporting.

If you'd want this, ParanoidDrone, send me some combos/ideas with customs. I already have a bunch of videos of Kirby's customs and combos... but those'll be appearing elsewhere.
Feel free to help out, I already put up the one for today but feel free to put up your own for tomorrow. Kirby is one I've had trouble doing, people have done sick strings to me on other Wii Us that I simply can't replicate, not being a kirby main. If you could show some sweet upper cutter stuff for tomorrow, feel free to post it yourself.
 

Balgorxz

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omg, those pro players arguing against custom moves at evo just because they aren't the standard now (if we dont start using them they will never become the standard...), or that the argument that they only want to strengthen the community by denying customs... They don't seem to understand that custom moves being at Evo is really important for the community and would help it alot.

Let's face it, the current standard Smash 4 gameplay is regarded as boring by many viewers or the FGC at large. Just research all the Apex coverage, even journalists who don't play Smash were bored by the Smash4 Top8 in contrast to the Melee Top. If we get more Top8s like Apex it will hurt the growth of the Smash4 scene imo.

Thats why custom moves are so important, they would really hype things up. Gameplay would be deeper and characters more versatile. Plus the additional meta of selecting a good custom build and the surrounding strategies would be very interesting. I think Smash 4 could have a much stronger showing at Evo with custom moves enabled, helping the community much more than sticking to the current standard.
Also: When there won't be custom moves at Evo this year, there never will be. What is banned once, stays banned, the history of the smash games prove that. So now is the time to experiment with it. Everyone has still many months time to gifure out custom moves and train with them, so the time argument is irrelevant aswell.

So please, everyone keep pushing for customs and convince all the TOs. Also make sure everyone fully understands this custom moves project, there is still much misinformation going around. And TOs should be more creative regarding implementing them, I read about fears of prolonged set time because of all the move counterpicking, but just implement a rule that prevents that, just like there are rules for character and stage counterpicking.
THAT is my biggest fear, if customs are not in evo I fear that they will never be part of smash 4.
changing rules in the smash community is something really hard to do
 

DunnoBro

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That's very encouraging.

@ DunnoBro DunnoBro are you anywhere near EVO? I ask because of your powersave service, I can see him balking slightly at having to still unlock it all on the 3DS.
Nowhere near, MD/VA. I will be going to evo though. I also have off for 2-months and have a friends house I can stay at so I could possibly arrive early and help set-up if they somehow can't find someone in the state with a powersave interested in customs.

Also, just set-up gimr and all the xanadu set-ups tonight with customs. Gimr is also borrowing one of my fully unlocked smash 3ds for him to try out stuff too. Everyone seems pretty hype in general for customs and Boss even went doc in grand finals tonight because of how much he liked custom doc. He said he'll probably main doc with customs on, and doesn't seem to be taking default too seriously any more since doc is awful without customs...

And just a thought, in the event Evo disallows people to put in their own customs.. Should we make a new list using the full 10 slots?
 
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Sodo

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What are the biggest arguments against custom moves in competitive play? It seems the overarching reason many use is the fact that they must be unlocked.
 

Sixfortyfive

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And just a thought, in the event Evo disallows people to put in their own customs.. Should we make a new list using the full 10 slots?
Yes. If possible, I think there should be at least some kind of effort put into ordering each of the 10 custom sets from "most popular/useful" to "least popular/useful," too.

I'm going to float ideas for customs at future local tournaments. The idea I have for now is to ask the players what movesets they want to run in advance, get all of those entered into the 3DS, and then fill in the remaining available slots with the overall "best" sets to run as decided by threads like these, up to 10 total. The 3DS data would then be shared to each Wii U before the event starts. Probably wouldn't allow moveset tweaking after the tournament starts due to time concerns.

Surveying the players for movesets in advance might not work for a major, but for a 30-50 person local tournament it's feasible.
 
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Ansou

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Wow, this thread just exploded over the last days. I'm really glad that more people are joining in on the custom moves discussion and that major tournaments are considering customs.
 

Galespark

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I've been reading a lot of comments lately about how difficult will be to know each move for all characters so at the moment of a match the lack of awareness of certain move would cause them to lose the match

A while back ago Nairo made this playlist showing a sample of each character custom moves in 1 minute videos, very useful in case you want to know the options of certain characters quickly.

I suggest adding this to the original post: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHBCQLRFbEEP9K9N470s96ocjd-JOJoDo
 

Splash Damage

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In the absence of little mac mains, I'll give my two cents on how to use his customs and what set I use.
Here's my custom move set:
2:Flaming Straight Lunge
2:Grounding Blow
2:Tornado Uppercut
1:Slip Counter

First, I'll go over each choice in depth, and say why I ignored the other options.

Custom Neutral:2
I chose the Flaming Straight Lunge because of how much more useful it is than he other customs. First is the obvious reason, the assist in horizontal recovery. Useful as it may be, it is not thoroughly recommended lest you DI upward, for the endlag is substantial. Second is the ability to use in in ledge getup baits. One of Little Mac's greatest assets is this ability, as he has a very fast, lagless D-tilt that hits below and above the ledge. Using repeated D-tilts at the ledge as they recover and grab ledge, as this makes two of their options dangerous, those being neutral getup and jump getup. This custom allows you to to confirm these selected options then turnaround neutral-B to cover all remaining options and do anywhere from 17%-24%. Finally, the thing very few people know about this custom:The midar super armor. This move gets, in midair, almost all the super armor of the ground variation. This allows it to eat through weak aerials, including some that cause and lead to juggle setups, like Shiek's F-air, Luigi's F-air, all hits of Sheik's Up air, ect. It can also remove Diddy's banana if it's landed on while charging the punch. I have not tested the full extent of all the aerials it can eat through and will continue with updates as time goes on.

Custom Side:2
This one was a tough choice. The neutral Jolt Haymaker is a great and safe move in and of itself, that also helps with recovery, and the third custom ignores shields and has super armor. however, I chose this one as it works better with the rest of the set. The other recovery options in the Tornado Uppercut and Flaming Straight Lunge. It lacks the ability to tech chase that the others have in full as well. However, this one is intended to be used both sparingly and sneakily. It can of course be used to bury opponents, paired with his powerful jab combo or his down-pivoted F-smash could be useful for damage, or it could be used by ledge(if baited propery and not shielded because if they shield it you're in for it)and followed up witgh another Grounding Blow or a normal F-smash. Another use for it is to predict a high recovery to use the very first frames to spike them down. If done frame-perfectly, they will be spiked and you will grab ledge.

Custom up:2 Tornado Uppercut:
This one was an easy pick. The neutral up-b would simply not work with this set as that would limit/remove all reliable recovery options, and the Rising Smash is...well...broken. Risky, but broken. This custom unfortunately lacks the killing power that the Rising Uppercut has so well, but absolutely every other function is fully intact. This includes the ability to avoid final hits of Jab Combos by mashing up-B, recovirung low under the lip of the stage to hit them with the higher hitboxes and clear them from the ledge(Which, with this custom is much more effective as it knocks them toward the center), ect.

Custom Down:Slip Counter
I opted out of using the 3rd custom counter for the sole reason of power. This Little Mac set overall is more of an offensive one, and having access to the most powerful counter in the game is quite a plus. Used sparingly with the Flaming Straight Lunge and N-air used to break combos, this becomes an excellent bait move, especially for smashes. Get them to a decent percent, bait out an F-smash, counter reliably, stock.

Like I said, this set is still being tested and I hope I was able to help and provide some insight.
 
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Raijinken

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In the absence of little mac mains, I'll give my two cents on how to use his customs and what set I use.
Here's my custom move set:
2:Flaming Straight Lunge
2:Grounding Blow
2:Tornado Uppercut
1:Slip Counter

First, I'll go over each choice in depth, and say why I ignored the other options.

Custom Neutral:2
I chose the Flaming Straight Lunge because of how much more useful it is than he other customs. First is the obvious reason, the assist in horizontal recovery. Useful as it may be, it is not thoroughly recommended lest you DI upward, for the endlag is substantial. Second is the ability to use in in ledge getup baits. One of Little Mac's greatest assets is this ability, as he has a very fast, lagless D-tilt that hits below and above the ledge. Using repeated D-tilts at the ledge as they recover and grab ledge, as this makes two of their options dangerous, those being neutral getup and jump getup. This custom allows you to to confirm these selected options then turnaround neutral-B to cover all remaining options and do anywhere from 17%-24%. Finally, the thing very few people know about this custom:The midar super armor. This move gets, in midair, almost all the super armor of the ground variation. This allows it to eat through weak aerials, including some that cause and lead to juggle setups, like Shiek's F-air, Luigi's F-air, all hits of Sheik's Up air, ect. It can also remove Diddy's banana if it's landed on while charging the punch. I have not tested the full extent of all the aerials it can eat through and will continue with updates as time goes on.

Custom Side:2
This one was a tough choice. The neutral Jolt Haymaker is a great and safe move in and of itself, that also helps with recovery, and the third custom ignores shields and has super armor. however, I chose this one as it works better with the rest of the set. The other recovery options in the Tornado Uppercut and Flaming Straight Lunge. It lacks the ability to tech chase that the others have in full as well. However, this one is intended to be used both sparingly and sneakily. It can of course be used to bury opponents, paired with his powerful jab combo or his down-pivoted F-smash could be useful for damage, or it could be used by ledge(if baited propery and not shielded because if they shield it you're in for it)and followed up witgh another Grounding Blow or a normal F-smash. Another use for it is to predict a high recovery to use the very first frames to spike them down. If done frame-perfectly, they will be spiked and you will grab ledge.

Custom up:2 Tornado Uppercut:
This one was an easy pick. The neutral up-b would simply not work with this set as that would limit/remove all reliable recovery options, and the Rising Smash is...well...broken. Risky, but broken. This custom unfortunately lacks the killing power that the Rising Uppercut has so well, but absolutely every other function is fully intact. This includes the ability to avoid final hits of Jab Combos by mashing up-B, recovirung low under the lip of the stage to hit them with the higher hitboxes and clear them from the ledge(Which, with this custom is much more effective as it knocks them toward the center), ect.

Custom Down:Slip Counter
I opted out of using the 3rd custom counter for the sole reason of power. This Little Mac set overall is more of an offensive one, and having access to the most powerful counter in the game is quite a plus. Used sparingly with the Flaming Straight Lunge and N-air used to break combos, this becomes an excellent bait move, especially for smashes. Get them to a decent percent, bait out an F-smash, counter reliably, stock.

Like I said, this set is still being tested and I hope I was able to help and provide some insight.
I agree with a lot of that reasoning. I go with Flaming largely for the horizontal recovery and quicker charge. For Side, I think it's whichever a player prefers, I'd probably just go with the default because it's fast and has the invuln window. I'm more and more convinced that, despite the power (and occasional necessity) of Rising Upper to dislodge characters from platform camping, I think the recovery will be more necessary to keep him valid.

Nowhere near, MD/VA. I will be going to evo though. I also have off for 2-months and have a friends house I can stay at so I could possibly arrive early and help set-up if they somehow can't find someone in the state with a powersave interested in customs.

Also, just set-up gimr and all the xanadu set-ups tonight with customs. Gimr is also borrowing one of my fully unlocked smash 3ds for him to try out stuff too. Everyone seems pretty hype in general for customs and Boss even went doc in grand finals tonight because of how much he liked custom doc. He said he'll probably main doc with customs on, and doesn't seem to be taking default too seriously any more since doc is awful without customs...

And just a thought, in the event Evo disallows people to put in their own customs.. Should we make a new list using the full 10 slots?
For any scenario not allowing individuals, a full list would be ideal. Eventually (maybe even now) I feel like we should get the extra two slots taken up by 2222 and 3333 and take up those spots (personal users can leave those on their own systems for their own experimenting). It's not likely that players will be "experimenting" during a tournament setting anyway. That would give us eight preset and two free, which should further cover people's options and prevent extra setup time.

Unfortunately, as I'm running into during discussions with some local NC smashers, there's a lot of sheer laziness and misinformation just floating around. Despite all of our efforts to the contrary, some of the bigger events are gonna have to actually have their customs tourneys get rolling (as in, the promises aren't helping, the events haven't happened yet) before we'll get much attention.
 
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Neerb

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I've been reading a lot of comments lately about how difficult will be to know each move for all characters so at the moment of a match the lack of awareness of certain move would cause them to lose the match.
It's literally only laziness and fear of change lmao.
"Boohoo I have to learn things" is all I hear from those people. They realize POKEMON is played at a world-class competitive level by people as young as TEN, right? Just read stuff online and practice in-game, it takes a little while but it isn't hard and it sure as heck ain't a valid justification for banning.
 

ParanoidDrone

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And just a thought, in the event Evo disallows people to put in their own customs.. Should we make a new list using the full 10 slots?
If this ends up being the case then yes, there's no sense in leaving empty slots.

@ Amazing Ampharos Amazing Ampharos how much effort would it be to cobble together a full collection of 10 sets per character instead of the 6-8 everyone has now?
 

Raijinken

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"Boohoo I have to learn things" is all I hear from those people. They realize POKEMON is played at a world-class competitive level by people as young as TEN, right? Just read stuff online and practice in-game, it takes a little while but it isn't hard and it sure as heck ain't a valid justification for banning.
To say nothing of the popularity of Dota and its derivatives, which have rosters 2-3 times the size of Smash's, hundreds of stat-altering items, and rake major prize pools in excess of $5 million.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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If this ends up being the case then yes, there's no sense in leaving empty slots.

@ Amazing Ampharos Amazing Ampharos how much effort would it be to cobble together a full collection of 10 sets per character instead of the 6-8 everyone has now?
It would be perfectly reasonable to do. I'm thinking about how to proceed with updating the lists and the timing of such relative to majors season. 2222 and 3333, except where actually ideal, would definitely be dropped, and if that's the direction of things, using slots 9 and 10 is on the table too. With all of these smaller (relative to EVO) events adopting customs more quickly, I was hoping to get some feedback from them about the lists before updating though.
 

Neerb

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To say nothing of the popularity of Dota and its derivatives, which have rosters 2-3 times the size of Smash's, hundreds of stat-altering items, and rake major prize pools in excess of $5 million.
Oh my gosh yes, I forgot about MOBAs.

Smash players get upset when other communities treat them like kids but as soon as their game has a chance to get even 1/10th as complicated as other games they start crying about how it's too hard?
 

Cazdon

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Oh my gosh yes, I forgot about MOBAs.

Smash players get upset when other communities treat them like kids but as soon as their game has a chance to get even 1/10th as complicated as other games they start crying about how it's too hard?
Hah, yeah. Being too complex is never a reason to dismiss or ban something, in fact to me, it's all the more reason to legalize.
 

ParanoidDrone

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It would be perfectly reasonable to do. I'm thinking about how to proceed with updating the lists and the timing of such relative to majors season. 2222 and 3333, except where actually ideal, would definitely be dropped, and if that's the direction of things, using slots 9 and 10 is on the table too. With all of these smaller (relative to EVO) events adopting customs more quickly, I was hoping to get some feedback from them about the lists before updating though.
Waiting for some of the customs tournaments to happen makes sense. EVO's rules aren't locked until late March so there's definitely time, which is good. I'm mostly worried about some of the character boards being effectively silent. Again. There's been a lot of feedback and suggestions in this very thread though.
 
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Raijinken

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Waiting for some of the customs tournaments to happen makes sense. EVO's rules aren't locked until late March so there's definitely time, which is good. I'm mostly worried about some of the character boards being effectively silent. Again. There's been a lot of feedback and suggestions in this very thread though.
The silence I guess comes from player preference. I don't really go to the character boards because I don't feel I have much to contribute (since I play basically everyone at a shallow level instead of really maining properly), but I play with and against customs all the time, so I feel like my input is more relevant here. Others could be in a similar boat.

I think it'd be reasonable to revise the list to include 10 movesets, with two categories. For instance, using Megaman as an example:
:4megaman:
Top Six (Current):
1311
1112
1113
1312
1313
1121
Replacement Sets (over 2222 and 3333):
1131
1331
Optional Final Slots:
2112
3111

Those are just examples (I use 1331 sometimes for horizontal recovery), but that would be the idea. For people with standard setups, that'd give them eight significant sets, with room for 2222 and 3333 for practice and experimentation, to be overwritten if needed. For tournaments not allowing individual sets, replacing 2222 and 3333 (when appropriate) with better sets would give the full set of ten, giving us the greatest possible coverage without allowing imports.
 

EmblemCrossing

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@ Amazing Ampharos Amazing Ampharos if more sets open up, does this mean we can see the return of 3113 on Marth/Lucina? It was a very versatile set. I prefer it to what it was replaced with (1121). Good horizontal movement option, Iai Counter is very useful if the opponent doesn't expect it, and I've gotten plenty of free kills off it. (Dedede almost fully charged F-Smash while I'm attempting to recover? Nope. Knock behind me and kill at 25%)
 
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DunnoBro

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Anyone think it might be possible to manipulate the 3ds SD card so that people can copy the saved sets from another smash 3ds save onto their own? (Specifically over the internet)

I doubt it if they were serious about encryption, but theoretically it might not be too difficult. This could also help out digital users who can't use powersaves a lot.

And of course I think of this idea after I can't test for it =p

Edit: Considering you can edit equipment now...

Think someone might be able to code a "Set Editor"? That'd pretty much put a powersave in every smash 3ds owners hands.

Edit2: Oh, it needs to access the save not the sd card. There goes that...
 
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HeroMystic

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I dunno, i'm pretty much like this (especially on power suit samus players).
Saying that you reflect on reaction vs certain characters actually enforces my point.

There's the preconceived notion that reflectors are used on reaction instead of prediction and preparation. This isn't really the case, even against Samus and Megaman. When you're fighting projectile-heavy characters, you know they're going to use projectiles, thus you prepare yourself to either shield or use a reflector.

In Mario's specific case, Cape comes out on Frame 12. This is not a good move to use on reaction and it never has been in any Smash game. Mario's have always reflected because they felt a projectile incoming, and they don't play as aggressively.
 

19_

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It would be perfectly reasonable to do. I'm thinking about how to proceed with updating the lists and the timing of such relative to majors season. 2222 and 3333, except where actually ideal, would definitely be dropped, and if that's the direction of things, using slots 9 and 10 is on the table too. With all of these smaller (relative to EVO) events adopting customs more quickly, I was hoping to get some feedback from them about the lists before updating though.
Waiting for some of the customs tournaments to happen makes sense. EVO's rules aren't locked until late March so there's definitely time, which is good. I'm mostly worried about some of the character boards being effectively silent. Again. There's been a lot of feedback and suggestions in this very thread though.
Holy **** guys what are we waiting for?

Seriously we need to kick this discussion into high gear. I'm going to go back to the character custom threads to recommend some more sets.

If anyone wants customs legal at EVO I suggest you do the same.

edit: If it is possible this thread could use a sticky.
 
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Thinkaman

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In the absence of little mac mains, I'll give my two cents on how to use his customs and what set I use.
Here's my custom move set:
2:Flaming Straight Lunge
2:Grounding Blow
2:Tornado Uppercut
1:Slip Counter
Hey, thanks for chiming in, and welcome to Smashboards! I've been playing slightly more Mac than other characters lately, so I can talk about him pretty comfortably.

Flaming Straight Lunge is definitely optimal. Did you know that both LM custom Lunges apply 5 extra frames of Super Armor to his KO Punch? If nothing else, take it for that upgrade.

I am a big fan of Grounding Blow. While there are some matchups where I feel Jolt Haymaker is required as an anti-projectile gap-closer, I think Grounding Blow is broadly superior. I actually believe it is a better recovery option than Jolt Haymaker, because of the superior range of approach options it allows. The number of situations where the tiny extra distance from Jolt Haymaker is required, yet the opponent is incapable of intercepting this forced option, are actually slim to none. Grounding Blow also provides a respectable guaranteed followup to d-tilt from 50-100% on most characters. Finally, it is a superior tool against platform camping than Jolt Haymaker.

As for up-b though, I must strongly disagree. Rising Uppercut is Little Mac's only true anti-air move, and he cannot live without it. It's also a very safe KO option. It's the only frame-1-invincible move in the game (besides Tornado Uppercut), and can be used to escape all sorts of things while dealing a respectable 10% damage. LM can combo it out of jab at ~100% in most matchups, turning his frame-1 jab into a KO move. It is LM's only truly robust answer to platform camping. Simply put, Little Mac is not competitively viable without this move. I've read @ TheReflexWonder TheReflexWonder post similar sentiment iirc.

I believe Slip Counter is offensively only good for opponents foolish enough to charge smashes. The raw speed, reward, and safety of LM's normal moveset, particularly his tilts, put Slip Counter to shame. Any time one could use Slip Counter, you have to ask--am I SURE a faster and safer f-tilt wouldn't be less risky and more rewarding? This is especially true against anyone who relies on multi-hit smashes or KO options, like Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, Sonic (usmash), Pit, Bowser Jr, Shulk, or others.

Dashing Counter activates 1 frame sooner and is a much better recovery tool. As a small bonus, it can punish laggy projectiles that Slip Counter--and f-tilt--are useless against. (Don't get carried away though--your average projectile is too safe to use this against.)
 

TheReflexWonder

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Rest is Frame 1-invincible, for all it's worth.

Compact Counter activates 1 frame later than Slip, doesn't it? The fact that the cooldown post-activation is noticeably lower makes me wonder if it has some neat stuff we're missing out on currently.
 

Thinkaman

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Rest is Frame 1-invincible, for all it's worth.
Oh yeah, you're right. Dunno how I could have forgotten that.

Compact Counter activates 1 frame later than Slip, doesn't it? The fact that the cooldown post-activation is noticeably lower makes me wonder if it has some neat stuff we're missing out on currently.
Yeah. I spend some time looking into it, and I got nothing.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Assuming the punch hitbox is at least close to as enormous as his other Counters, the way I figure, since it doesn't propel you anywhere, someone trying to U-Air you would get love tapped and combo'd into a free aerial Up-B.

*shrugs*

EDIT: I never tested it because all of his specials make you land and/or put Mac in SpecialFall, but, I wonder if an air Compact Counter would get the buffered effect of sliding forward on a KO Punch used immediately afterward, or if that would have any real use.
 
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Nidtendofreak

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It would be perfectly reasonable to do. I'm thinking about how to proceed with updating the lists and the timing of such relative to majors season. 2222 and 3333, except where actually ideal, would definitely be dropped, and if that's the direction of things, using slots 9 and 10 is on the table too. With all of these smaller (relative to EVO) events adopting customs more quickly, I was hoping to get some feedback from them about the lists before updating though.
Funny enough, I'd actually recommend keeping it at just 8 slots.

Its a headache otherwise for those who use their Wii U at both smaller and massive tournaments. Gotta go in and either delete slots 9+10 or add back in things to those two slots when you move between the two areas (smaller tournaments want open slots for players uploading their own movesets, big tournaments don't want that).

I agree with ditching universal 2222/3333, but might wanna leave the last two lots for that reason.
 

Splash Damage

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Assuming the punch hitbox is at least close to as enormous as his other Counters, the way I figure, since it doesn't propel you anywhere, someone trying to U-Air you would get love tapped and combo'd into a free aerial Up-B.
This topic seems like it could definitely use some time in the lab...seems like it would be a great mixup to get early KOs on Diddys, Marios, and other light jugglers.
 

Balgorxz

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Oh my gosh yes, I forgot about MOBAs.

Smash players get upset when other communities treat them like kids but as soon as their game has a chance to get even 1/10th as complicated as other games they start crying about how it's too hard?
don't forget most of the popular esport games change every 3 months making the game even harder and less stale, that is to avoid the problem of people figuring out the "meta" and become less entertaining to watch.
 

Thinkaman

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Call me pessimistic, but a frame-6 counter sounds uninspiring as an anti-juggle option.

don't forget most of the popular esport games change every 3 months making the game even harder and less stale, that is to avoid the problem of people figuring out the "meta" and become less entertaining to watch.
Every 3 months? More like 3 weeks!

Edit: To be clear, I don't think Smash explicitly needs to be more like LoL. However, LoL's incredible success has shown us a lot about what can make a healthy and vibrant competitive environment.
 
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DunnoBro

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With things heating up lately, I think we should make a few new objectives to tack onto this project:

1: A "Locked" Moveset project.
Which uses all 10 slots and none of them for test slots. Unfortunately, some areas and larger events may not allow us to input our own sets.

I think the option should be available for TOs and communities based on their ability to use customs. Xanadu would have little issue using the standard project + inputting personal sets, but when relegated to side tournaments or general time constraints it seems counter-productive to cut the sets able to be used by almost half.

And as someone who has put the sets on many, many Wii Us... I'm pretty sure I haven't done a single one where someone wanted to at least try a specific set I had to make for them. (Especially players less familiar with customs that would prefer more familiar moves despite allegedly directly superior ones) So I'd hope this could help early tournaments have more of a competitive selection to choose from. Though it could hurt non-tournament testing...

2: The "Custom Checksheet"
A printable sheet which lists what the set layout or each numbered set for the character is. (1121, 1131, etc) To be placed atop every Wii U unit to easily check which set is which without having to leave the selection screen.

And extra space below the set layout to mark in roman numerals each game won with that set. Losing sets will be left blank.

This can help us gather data about the success of each set, and use it to decide which make it into the set list of that character. (And general win rate discussion is fun too)

That data collection would of course be entirely optional on the TOs part, but the sheet should help things speed up.

3: Firm Custom Ruleset Discussion, and Decision.

I'm of the firm belief 2-stocks are simply bad with customs on. The game was already barely fit for 2-stock, but with the added speed and radical elements, I think 3-stock is definitely required. Especially when adaptation is more important than ever with more usable characters and sets.

But of course, the community needs to decide what they want for themselves.
 
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Splash Damage

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Actually, I looked it up and (thankfully) It is officially stated that it's a frae 5 counter for what it's worth, though that may not make it worth it quite enough overall.
 
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