[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[DekuBoy]

So you wants the player models from SSB64 back?.........why?

 

[Starphoenix]

So you wants the player models from SSB64 back?.........why?

Maybe I missed something but as far as I can tell this subject has not been brought up at all within the past couple of pages?

On the idea itself it neither is bad nor good.

 

[.WC.]

SSB64 grabs are a must. Lol.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I would be all for Cell-shaded Alts. For example, look at this Paper Mario ALT made for Brawl:

I'll say it before and I'll say it again, I think it would be great if they added a feature where you could make your own ALTs in the game.

 

[Mowrt620]

I would be all for Cell-shaded Alts. For example, look at this Paper Mario ALT made for Brawl:

I'll say it before and I'll say it again, I think it would be great if they added a feature where you could make your own ALTs in the game.

Eh, that'd get to messy...

 

[n88]

@Shino

I agree with you on most points, so I'm skipping over those. What I disagree with is that you think Tingle is the only viable representative for Legend of Zelda. I think Toon Zelda has a shot, as well. Sakurai's clearly considered her before (He may want her for the same reason he wants a younger Link), and Zelda, while always important, seems to be taking a more proactive role in the adventures lately, increasing her importance. She has quite the role in the upcoming Spirit Tracks.

Also, she probably wouldn't be a total clone, as Tetra is the obvious choice for her transformation, rather than Sheik. Toon Sheik wouldn't really work, due to stubbiness of legs and Sheik's kick-focused moveset (I know Zelda kicks, too, but I think her model would looko less awkward kicking, due to the dress. The only move I can see any trouble with is the D-Tilt). Of course, she might not have a transformation at all, and get her own Down-B.

 

[Arcadenik]

The only reason why Sakurai considered Toon Zelda and not Tingle in Brawl was because Sakurai already added Tingle as an Assist Trophy and never planned to add any new Zelda characters except replacing Young Link with Toon Link and wanted to add MOAR last-minute filler clones to buff the roster. Toon Zelda fits the bill. Just because Toon Zelda can do different things Zelda doesn't in Spirit Tracks doesn't mean Sakurai is going to give Toon Zelda an original moveset (looks at Toon Link).

Oh, and I am 100% against giving Black Shadow Ganondorf's moveset. Ganondorf is fine the way he is, just change a couple of his specials and he is practically decloned. Also, F-Zero seems to be in limbo right now, just like Star Fox, and I doubt F-Zero would get a new character when Sakurai originally added both Falco and Wolf as last-minute filler clones in Melee and Brawl respectively (they won't be last-minute but they would still be clones in SSB4). I also think that Star Fox shouldn't get a new character because it is not in the same level as Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon (I was never a fan of Krystal, let alone the Star Fox series).

The Paper Mario alt doesn't look pretty in 3D. He looks better in 2D that I think he should stay as a trophy.

 

[Neo Exdeath]

I'll say it before and I'll say it again, I think it would be great if they added a feature where you could make your own ALTs in the game.

I support this idea. It would be seriously awesome if you could make your own alt costumes in-game.

 

[darksamus77]

Now, I had a thought, and I'd like some support for a SPEAR GUY (Shy Guy with a spear) for SSB4!
A-Pokes spear
AA-Poke, then slash
AAA-Poke, Slash, Slash
<A>-Thrusts spear instantly out into opponent
Down A-Ducks, then pokes spear at opponent
Up A-Raises spear up above head, similar to what Ike does with his sword
SMASH <>-Swings spear at opponent, decent launching power
SMASH Down-Stomps butt end of spear into ground, similar to Charizards in effect
SMASH Up-Thrusts spear upwards, high priority
B-Spins in circles, creating tornado infinitely
<B>-Throws a spear, then gets a new one automatically (helps with recovery a bit also)
Down B-Continous pounding of the butt end into the ground, similar to DK's
Up B-Spins upward with the spear in front, does significant damage, medium range
Ledge attack-steps up and slashes with spear
Aerial A-Kicks opponent
Aerial (facing opponent) <A>-chops with spear, tomahawk style
Aerial <A> (back to opponent)-Performs backward stab with butt end of spear
Aerial Up-pokes spear upward (good for combos)
Aerial Down- Stabs downward, similar to Link's/Toon Link's
Dash Attack-Penguin Slide, spear first
Grab Attack-Pokes with Spear
Grab Up-Throws opponent up slightly, then stabs upward with spear, sending them flying
Grab <>-Slashes backwards with spear (opposite A combo slashes)
Grab Down-Stabs with butt end of stick
FINAL SMASH-Gathers lightning and then fires a stream across the screen, instantly killing anyone it touches
PLEASE SUPPORT HIM FOR THE NEXT SMASH BROS GAME!
Anyways, other things:
Dark Samus as a playable character (not a clone, PLEASE not a clone of Samus)
A stage for Bowser (hopefully his castle?)
A Tallon IV Stage (I was thinking one that moved like Castle Siege)
A Bowser Theme
Phendrana Drifts
Something, ANYTHING from the Paper Mario series

 

[n88]

@Arcadenik

And you know Sakurai's reasons because you're psychic? Or do you have a source? And remember, Sakurai doesn't usually pick complete out-of-nowhere losers for clones. They've all actually been good picks, although a few were controversial. And when did I say she was going to have a unique moveset? I specifically addressed that she would work fine with Zelda's moveset in my post. Not everybody hates clones with every fiber of their being.

 

[Hero Dude]

What exactly is the discussion right now?

I am really confused.

 

[n88]

@Hero Dude

The discussion is currently a WSOGMM. Feel free to contribute whatever.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Eh, that'd get to messy...

I doubt it considering how the feature has been used in games as early as N64/PS1 generation. If it's anything like Soul Calibur IV's, it should work just fine.

 

[Arcadenik]

@Arcadenik

And you know Sakurai's reasons because you're psychic? Or do you have a source? And remember, Sakurai doesn't usually pick complete out-of-nowhere losers for clones. They've all actually been good picks, although a few were controversial. And when did I say she was going to have a unique moveset? I specifically addressed that she would work fine with Zelda's moveset in my post. Not everybody hates clones with every fiber of their being.

I know because we all know who the Forbidden Seven are and all of them except Mewtwo and possibly Dixie Kong were clones. Dr. Mario, Roy, Plusle & Minun, Toon Zelda, and Toon Sheik fit the bill.

Also, not everybody likes clones because they are repetitive (looks at Fox, Falco, and Wolf). Two clones were enough but three clones is just pushing it.

Oh, and you seemed to imply that Toon Zelda would be original if she had Tetra. Let me bold the part you made your statement.

@Shino

Also, she probably wouldn't be a total clone, as Tetra is the obvious choice for her transformation, rather than Sheik. Toon Sheik wouldn't really work, due to stubbiness of legs and Sheik's kick-focused moveset (I know Zelda kicks, too, but I think her model would looko less awkward kicking, due to the dress. The only move I can see any trouble with is the D-Tilt). Of course, she might not have a transformation at all, and get her own Down-B.

There is also the possibility that Toon Sheik could be just a codename for Tetra but even then, there is also the possibility that Tetra could have been a Sheik clone since the data did say "Toon Sheik" and not "Tetra", implying a Sheik clone to go with a Zelda clone.

 

[Hero Dude]

Should WarioWare get another character?
Is Kamek likely?
Who gets in first, Starfy or Isaac?
If there is a Pikmin 3, and it does extremely well, what happens?
Tom Nook?
Duck Hunt Dog?
Mewtwo?
*Sigh* .....Tingle......

There are a number of things to talk about. Just pick one.

 

[Arcadenik]

Should WarioWare get another character?
Is Kamek likely?
Who gets in first, Starfy or Isaac?
If there is a Pikmin 3, and it does extremely well, what happens?
Tom Nook?
Duck Hunt Dog?
Mewtwo?
*Sigh* .....Tingle......

There are a number of things to talk about. Just pick one.

Kamek? I think we better pick Baby Mario or Baby Bros. first before we move on to Kamek. Protagonists always get in before antagonists. Anyway, I don't think Yoshi (and Wario, too) should get a new character.

Definitely Starfy. Starfy has more games than Isaac does and there is the possibility that Isaac wouldn't even be the main character in Golden Sun DS. Nintendo had been heavily promoting Starfy for the international debut, indicating that Nintendo really wants Starfy to be successful and popular.

Whether Pikmin 3 does well or not, I hope Louie or anyone from Pikmin 3 are not added as an Olimar clone.

We already discussed Tom Nook (and Animal Crosser) in the last few pages and we both know that some people here think Duck Hunt Dog and Tingle are bad ideas because many people hate them for trivial reasons and would cause many people to not buy the game.

Mewtwo is the most wanted Pokemon for SSB4 simply because it was removed from Brawl. If Mewtwo came back in Brawl and Jigglypuff was removed, Jigglypuff would have been the most wanted Pokemon for SSB4. People just want what they don't have, you know.

We have nothing new to talk about. We have been going on in circles just about everything including characters, stages, music, and gameplay.

 

[Fatmanonice]

No.
No.
Isaac due to longer international prescence.
Nothing.
No
No
No
I don't want him but I see him as likely.

Done

 

[Arcadenik]

Fatman... you said no to Mewtwo, too? Wow. Well, I don't mind if Mewtwo is not playable in SSB4. If I ever wanted to play as Mewtwo again, I can just play Melee.

 

[Mowrt620]

Howabout stages...each character, ahem.

Pacman- Pac Maze- sort of like pictochat base, but with the ghost box, and the ghosts can come out and hurt you

Sora- Hollow bastion- Start at the waterway area, then you get on the elevator thing, and end up on the platforms in the middle of the castle, with the big heartless symbol and gears and platforms.

Bomberman- Green feild area with a few pillars

Duck Hunt Dog- Grassy area with tree that you can climb on. Ocasional shooter.

Thats just a few, tell me what you think, and come up with some stages or something....

 

[Hero Dude]

Kamek? I think we better pick Baby Mario or Baby Bros. first before we move on to Kamek. Protagonists always get in before antagonists. Anyway, I don't think Yoshi (and Wario, too) should get a new character.

Definitely Starfy. Starfy has more games than Isaac does and there is the possibility that Isaac wouldn't even be the main character in Golden Sun DS. Nintendo had been heavily promoting Starfy for the international debut, indicating that Nintendo really wants Starfy to be successful and popular.

Whether Pikmin 3 does well or not, I hope Louie or anyone from Pikmin 3 are not added as an Olimar clone.

We already discussed Tom Nook (and Animal Crosser) in the last few pages and we both know that some people here think Duck Hunt Dog and Tingle are bad ideas because many people hate them for trivial reasons and would cause many people to not buy the game.

Mewtwo is the most wanted Pokemon for SSB4 simply because it was removed from Brawl. If Mewtwo came back in Brawl and Jigglypuff was removed, Jigglypuff would have been the most wanted Pokemon for SSB4. People just want what they don't have, you know.

We have nothing new to talk about. We have been going on in circles just about everything including characters, stages, music, and gameplay.

The Protogonist of the Yoshi series is already in. Yoshi.

I pretty much knew you were gonna say Starfy. I just wanted to hear someone else say it.

I never said an Olimar clone, if Pikmin gets a true antogonist then I ment more that character. Probobly won't happen, even if Pikmin did get one.

I am not gonna comment on the Tingle issue, becouse I don't want to start anything. Plus I think you all know what I think. Same with Duck Hunt Dog.

I didn't really see a conclusion to the Tom Nook =/= Crosser debate.

If he is, and you are speaking the truth about Mewtwo, then I have no doubt in my mind he'll be back.

Arcadenik, open up your head and clean the Ice Cream out, then give us a topic.
( Becouse I KNOW that there's something in there.)

 

[Big-Cat]

We have been going on in circles just about everything including characters, stages, music, and gameplay.

This pretty much sums up this thread. Except gameplay is the rarest, imo, out of all these. However, there is a good reason considering that the last one involved me arguing with Toise that it wouldn't be a bad idea to borrow some mechanics from other fighters into Smash.

 

[Arcadenik]

I meant another Yoshi protagonist... as in Baby Mario or even Baby Bros. Like I said before, protagonists get in before antagonists.

Mario and Luigi, the Super Mario Bros., got in first before we got Bowser (antagonist) and Peach (part-time protagonist) in Melee.

Fox got in first. Falco was added first in Melee and Wolf was added second in Brawl.

Link got in first. Zelda was confirmed for Melee first and Sakurai never planned to add Ganondorf in Melee but he later decided to add him. Again, protagonists before antagonists.

Kirby got in first. Meta Knight is a part-time protagonist/antagonist but he was confirmed first before King Dedede, a full-time antagonist, was confirmed.

Donkey Kong got in first. Diddy Kong got in second in Brawl. Even Dixie Kong, the third protagonist, was planned to be in Brawl and King K. Rool, the antagonist of the series, wasn't even considered. Again, protagonists before antagonists.

Pikmin won't get a playable antagonist because all the antagonists in Pikmin games are giant creatures.

Oh, and the conclusion to the Animal Crossing debate is this.... Tom Nook and Animal Crosser are both Animal Crossing characters and Sakurai said no to playable Animal Crossing characters. End of story.

 

[Big-Cat]

I
Oh, and the conclusion to the Animal Crossing debate is this.... Tom Nook and Animal Crosser are both Animal Crossing characters and Sakurai said no to playable Animal Crossing characters. End of story.

He can still change his mind.

Also, I am fed up with you trying to find some kind of pattern to character inclusions and all that ****. I don't think there's much of a pattern going on when it comes to picking characters. Also, we don't know for certain if six of the Forbidden Seven were indeed clones. Could they have been? Yes, but nothing was explicitly said that they were. They could have been characters who fought nothing alike.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Fatman... you said no to Mewtwo, too? Wow. Well, I don't mind if Mewtwo is not playable in SSB4. If I ever wanted to play as Mewtwo again, I can just play Melee.

I've said my reasons in the past. I seriously doubt the developers would spend the time to give him a complete overhaul which would be the only way I'd actually want him back. Great character, laughably bad execution. If you ask me, it's like they made 25% of Mewtwo, got bored, and then just threw the rest of his moves together. Also, if Mewtwo would have stayed in Brawl, I have a feeling that he would have stayed about as bad as he did in Melee.

Add in: To be honest, I really like the idea of Tom Nook being playable but since Sakurai gave the franchise the thumbs down for the franchise, there's really not even a point in supporting him or debating him.

 

[Big-Cat]

Add in: To be honest, I really like the idea of Tom Nook being playable but since Sakurai gave the franchise the thumbs down for the franchise, there's really not even a point in supporting him or debating him.

Debating him? Maybe. Wanting and supporting him? Far from it. If the fans are vocal, I'm confident that Sakurai or whoever is leading the next one will not ignore that plea.

Just because a character doesn't seem all that likely doesn't mean you can't support and want that character. For years, I have wanted and supported Kumatora. Nothing will change that.

 

[Arcadenik]

@ Kuma

Really, who are you kidding? Dr. Mario and Roy had proven themselves to be clones in Melee. Pra_Mai sounds awfully a lot like Prasle and Mainan, the Japanese names for Plusle and Minun. The fact they are electric rodents just like Pikachu and Pichu leads us to logically conclude that they would have been Pichu's replacement and Pikachu's new clone with an Ice Climbers twist. Toon Zelda and Toon Sheik sounds awfully like they would be clones of Zelda and Sheik (even if Toon Sheik could have been a codename for Tetra). Dixie Kong could or could not be a clone of Diddy Kong but his down special animation looks odd, almost as if he is reaching out back for Dixie Kong to tag him... it might or might not mean Sakurai planned for a Diddy / Dixie team a la Ice Climbers with a Zelda / Sheik twist and might have run into programming issues and decided to take out Dixie Kong and just put in Diddy Kong alone.

If Sakurai said no to Sukapon for Melee and again for Brawl. It means he is not changing his mind.... so why would he change his mind for an Animal Crossing character?

 

[Big-Cat]

1. Is it likely that they were going to be clones? Yes, but nothing is known for certain. Just because something seems likely or logical doesn't mean it is indeed right.

2. When was Sukapon mentioned by Sakurai during Brawl?

3. Why would he change his mind? It's because it's a tendency for human beings to change their mind. For all we know, he may have already changed his mind.

 

[Mowrt620]

Ok, lets not get into the animal crosser/tom nook argument again, i support him, but lets just not bring it up....

 

[Hero Dude]

I meant another Yoshi protagonist... as in Baby Mario or even Baby Bros. Like I said before, protagonists get in before antagonists.

Mario and Luigi, the Super Mario Bros., got in first before we got Bowser (antagonist) and Peach (part-time protagonist) in Melee.

Fox got in first. Falco was added first in Melee and Wolf was added second in Brawl.

Link got in first. Zelda was confirmed for Melee first and Sakurai never planned to add Ganondorf in Melee but he later decided to add him. Again, protagonists before antagonists.

Kirby got in first. Meta Knight is a part-time protagonist/antagonist but he was confirmed first before King Dedede, a full-time antagonist, was confirmed.

Donkey Kong got in first. Diddy Kong got in second in Brawl. Even Dixie Kong, the third protagonist, was planned to be in Brawl and King K. Rool, the antagonist of the series, wasn't even considered. Again, protagonists before antagonists.

Pikmin won't get a playable antagonist because all the antagonists in Pikmin games are giant creatures.

Oh, and the conclusion to the Animal Crossing debate is this.... Tom Nook and Animal Crosser are both Animal Crossing characters and Sakurai said no to playable Animal Crossing characters. End of story.

If Baby mario was going to be in under the yoshi series, he would be on Yoshi's back. Certainly not playable, becouse he is with Yoshi the ENTIRE time. Kamek just seems alot more likely to me.

@ Pikmin: I know that. What I am saying is that if Pikmin 3 gets a NORMAL ANTOGONIST and DOES EXTREMELY WELL.

@ Animal Crossing: Your acting as if he is incapable of changing his mind. You think that if alot of people want Tom Nook, he will just ignore them and say "No" ?

Please don't bring up Sukapon. I would guess that they couldn't put him in Melee, due to programming, and for Brawl just didn't feel like it.

 

[Adell]

well is tom nook that popular

 

[BBQTV]

well i dont really know. Anyone able to answer this question?

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Pieman
My personal opinion of the Ganondorf thing is keeping Ganondorf completely unchanged. I was assuming that if Ganon was given a sword, I didn;t want his good moveset lost...I'd rather him stay completely unchanged, though. Pig Ganon would be the very best though.

@N88
I would like to see Toon Zelda in Smash (More so than I would like to see Toon Ganon) espcially if Tetra is the "Shiek". I wouldn't care if she is a clone (I like clones) and he'd be bette than Tingle. The reason I didn't mention it in my original post is that I wanted to discuss Toon Ganon...and not what happened here. I was trying to avoid my point being lost to a Tonn Zalda clone arguement....but we got mine done, so Toon Zelda is fine to argue.

Also, let me point out, once more, how completely different clones are (and the fact that wolf is not a clone, Arcadenik) and that Animations are hardly grounds to decide that characters are the same. All of the clones act differently than there "parent" character. Unique movesets are going to bcome more and more scarce as we go (most moves are just being mix and match'd with a few varying fram counts/ animations) so clones save time, create a useable, good character, and don't often play much like their parent.

 

[n88]

@Arcadenik

Maybe I should be a bit more clear.... Toon Zelda could be a clone of Zelda, through and through. But a Toon version of Sheik isn' really possible. You've seen the Toon characters. They've all got stubby little legs, and Shei's moveset is heavily dependant on kicking. It's impossible for a Toon character to do that. They don't have the body structure. So Toon Zelda would have to have some variation from Zelda, because she cannot turn into Toon Sheik. She could either gain her own Down-B, Tetra, or the Phantom from Spirit Tracks as a transformation.

And I know you think Toon Zelda was only considered because she would be a clone, but you really have nothing to back that up. The logic could have just as easily been "Let's add Toon Zelda">"She'd be a clone" as "We need a clone">"Let's pick Toon Zelda" Also, the only "Clones" added to Brawl were Wolf and Lucas. I use the word clone loosely here. If the clones that made it into Brawl are that differentiated from their templates, then who's to say the cut clones wouldn't have also been different?

 

[mariorocks64]

I want to think of the most likely roster. here is the record

confirmed
mario
luigi
donkey kong
link
samus
captain falcon
ness
yoshi
kirby
fox
pikachu
jigglypuff

enemies
master hand
metal mario
fighting polygons

Scrapped
Bowser
Peach
King Dedede (ends up as the background)
Pit
Mewtwo

This was the cast of SSB. In SSB$, what if golden metal mario was a boss in classic mode? or, he can be iron mario. Now, for melee

confirmed
mario
luigi
peach
bowser
dr.mario
donkey kong
link
zelda/shiek
young link
ganondorf
samus
captain falcon
ness
yoshi
kirby
fox
falco
pikachu
jigglypuff
pichu
mewtwo
ice climbers
marth
roy
mr.game & watch

enemies
master hand (playable through a glitch in the game
crazy hand
giga bowser
metal mario bros
giant kirby
fighting wireframe team

scrapped
Snake
Lucas

trophy newcomers
Wario
Metaknight
zero suit samus (not technically)
pit
King dedede
squirtle
charizard
Captain Olimar
Pikmin

Charizard has been an assister in two smash games,. In brawl, he is playable.Can meowth take the same road in SSB4? the new hand came in an even number. smash 2. in SSB4, golden metal mario can be assisted by a silver metal luigi. Next up, is brawl

confirmed
mario
luigi
peach
bowser
donkey kong
diddy kong
yoshi
wario
link
zelda/shiek
ganondorf
toon link
samus
ice climbers
pit
R.O.B
kirby
metaknight
king dedede
Captain Olimar & pikmin
fox
falco
wolf
captain falcon
pikachu
jigglypuff
pokemon trainer with charizard, squirtle, and ivysaur
lucario
marth
ike
ness
lucas
mr.game & watch
snake
sonic

enemies
master hand
crazy hand
petey piranha
rayquaza
porkey
fighting alloys
ridley/meta ridley
duon
tabuu
goleom

scrapped
dr.mario
toon zelda/toon shiek (hopefully tetra)
dixie kong
pichu
mewtwo
Pra_Mai (who is this?)
roy
young link

trophy scrapped
dixie kong
toon zelda
tetra (not sure)
pichu
mewtwo

Imagine. what can you see if polygons, wireframes, and alloys were combined? Think about the captain falcon polygon, the male wireframe, and the red alloy. what do you get when combined?

A good candidate: Bomberman! He befriends all gaming companies. bomberman and snake were in dreammix TV fighters (that doesn't matter, but It was cool). Bomberman has battled wario in wario blast. Bomberman are like miis, because you can customize bomberman to give him clothes(imagine a Michael jackson bomberman). add a mii head to bomberman if you want. With bomberman, we won't need to add mii as a separate space (uless you wanted custom movesets). Bomberman solves some avatar concerns. A moveset is easy to make.

B: lays a bomb
side B: Rui (jump on a foe to damage them)
up B: jetpack
down B: disguise as a bomb for a maximum of 15 seconds.
FS 1: skull bomb(relates to jigglypuff's final smash.)
FS 2: raining bombs
FS 3: skull effect (gives negative effects to opponents)

Ask me for any details on any specials.

with this cast info, helps think of characters to fully agree with.

 

[Pieman0920]

If Baby mario was going to be in under the yoshi series, he would be on Yoshi's back. Certainly not playable, becouse he is with Yoshi the ENTIRE time. Kamek just seems alot more likely to me.

The idea most people have when it comes to Baby Mario is for him to be partnered with Baby Luigi as he is in Mario Kart Double Dash, and M&L PiT. To that extent he does not need to actually be on Yoshi's back at all, and if you remember, he actually does get off of Yoshi's back when he gets the cape.

In addition, if you really are going to argue something as trivial as that, I must remind you that Kamek wasn't really a fighter at all, and for the most part just made normal enemies grow into bosses. In addition, in the Japanese version he was just a generic Magikoopa, as the name for Magikoopa in Japan is Kamek. (Someone dropped the ball at NoA it seems)

 

[.WC.]

Pra_Mai (who is this?)

That's Plusle and Minun.

 

[Arcadenik]

If Baby mario was going to be in under the yoshi series, he would be on Yoshi's back. Certainly not playable, becouse he is with Yoshi the ENTIRE time. Kamek just seems alot more likely to me.

@ Pikmin: I know that. What I am saying is that if Pikmin 3 gets a NORMAL ANTOGONIST and DOES EXTREMELY WELL.

@ Animal Crossing: Your acting as if he is incapable of changing his mind. You think that if alot of people want Tom Nook, he will just ignore them and say "No" ?

Please don't bring up Sukapon. I would guess that they couldn't put him in Melee, due to programming, and for Brawl just didn't feel like it.

LOL Just like how Sakurai ignored all the Sonic fanboys who begged and whined for Sonic to be added and ultimately ended up adding him after Nintendo pretty much ordered him to put Sonic in? Let's not forget that Sakurai had Snake hate Sonic for no reason.

If Sakurai is going to add an Animal Crossing character, he might as well make a Nintendog playable, too.

About Baby Mario, he's playable whenever Yoshi picks up the star in his games. Have you played both Yoshi's Island games? For SSB4, he already has his own Final Smash from Brawl that I don't think Sakurai would want to change into a transforming move where Yoshi turns into an egg and lets the player control Baby Mario for a short time, much like Wario's Final Smash.

Sakurai could, of course, make Baby Mario a completely separate character from Yoshi even though they are in the same slot in the character select screen if Baby Mario is playable only if the player selects Baby Mario instead of Yoshi on the character select screen, just like how the player can select Sheik or one of Red's Pokemon in Brawl, only there are no transformations like Zelda's or Samus's.

@ Pieman

I agree with you about Kamek. At least Baby Mario and Baby Luigi have proved themselves that they can engaqe in combat. I can't say the same about the other babies except for Baby Bowser and even then, Bowser Jr. would be a better choice over Baby Bowser. I am not saying I support Bowser Jr. but I think he is the better choice over Baby Bowser (and I support Toad over Bowser Jr.).

Edit: I must also remind you, Pieman, that while Kamek in Japan may be a name for a generic enemy but it is also a name for one individual Kamek. Generic Kameks are in Super Mario World but the individual Kamek appears as a main villain in Yoshi's Island games and Mario & Luigi 2. It is the same thing with Toad and Yoshi. Toad the Toad. Yoshi the Yoshi. Kamek the Kamek (aka Kamek the Magikoopa).

1. Is it likely that they were going to be clones? Yes, but nothing is known for certain. Just because something seems likely or logical doesn't mean it is indeed right.

2. When was Sukapon mentioned by Sakurai during Brawl?

3. Why would he change his mind? It's because it's a tendency for human beings to change their mind. For all we know, he may have already changed his mind.

And people can also decide not to change their minds, too. You still want Kumatora. I still want Duck Hunt Dog. Fatmanonice still wants Geno. Smashchu still don't want Tingle. Just to name a few examples.

About Sukapon, Sakurai already turned him down for Melee but some fans insisted that there were just programming issues that prevented Sukapon's inclusion. Well, Sakurai had ample time to come up with a way to resolve those issues for Brawl and he still didn't include Sukapon anyway. He wasn't even considered for Brawl. Programming issues, my foot.

@Pieman
My personal opinion of the Ganondorf thing is keeping Ganondorf completely unchanged. I was assuming that if Ganon was given a sword, I didn;t want his good moveset lost...I'd rather him stay completely unchanged, though. Pig Ganon would be the very best though.

@N88
I would like to see Toon Zelda in Smash (More so than I would like to see Toon Ganon) espcially if Tetra is the "Shiek". I wouldn't care if she is a clone (I like clones) and he'd be bette than Tingle. The reason I didn't mention it in my original post is that I wanted to discuss Toon Ganon...and not what happened here. I was trying to avoid my point being lost to a Tonn Zalda clone arguement....but we got mine done, so Toon Zelda is fine to argue.

Also, let me point out, once more, how completely different clones are (and the fact that wolf is not a clone, Arcadenik) and that Animations are hardly grounds to decide that characters are the same. All of the clones act differently than there "parent" character. Unique movesets are going to bcome more and more scarce as we go (most moves are just being mix and match'd with a few varying fram counts/ animations) so clones save time, create a useable, good character, and don't often play much like their parent.

I do not care if Wolf acts differently from Fox and Falco. He still uses the same special moves Fox and Falco use. I think that when we talk about clones, I believe we were referring to similar special moves (including the Final Smashes) and not the regular moves (the A moves).

@Arcadenik

Maybe I should be a bit more clear.... Toon Zelda could be a clone of Zelda, through and through. But a Toon version of Sheik isn' really possible. You've seen the Toon characters. They've all got stubby little legs, and Shei's moveset is heavily dependant on kicking. It's impossible for a Toon character to do that. They don't have the body structure. So Toon Zelda would have to have some variation from Zelda, because she cannot turn into Toon Sheik. She could either gain her own Down-B, Tetra, or the Phantom from Spirit Tracks as a transformation.

And I know you think Toon Zelda was only considered because she would be a clone, but you really have nothing to back that up. The logic could have just as easily been "Let's add Toon Zelda">"She'd be a clone" as "We need a clone">"Let's pick Toon Zelda" Also, the only "Clones" added to Brawl were Wolf and Lucas. I use the word clone loosely here. If the clones that made it into Brawl are that differentiated from their templates, then who's to say the cut clones wouldn't have also been different?

I have something to back that up. I look at all the Forbidden Seven and conclude that all of them except Mewtwo and possibly Dixie Kong would be clones.

Dr. Mario = clone of Mario
Roy = clone of Marth
Pra_Mai (Prasle and Mainan aka Plusle & Minun) = sounds like a Pichu replacement and clones of Pikachu
Toon Zelda = clone of Zelda
Toon Sheik = clone of Sheik

If Sakurai added two more clones, Lucas and Wolf, in Brawl and replaced one clone with another (Young Link and Toon Link), why would most of the Forbidden Seven not be clones?

Also, if Toon Link ended up a clone of Link, it won't make sense if Toon Zelda did not end up a clone of Zelda and the same goes for Toon Sheik and Sheik. Why would Toon Zelda not be a clone if Toon Link ended up a clone?

Impossible? Just because Toon Link does not use kicks does not mean Toon Sheik (aka Tetra) can't use kicks. There is a difference between "don't" and "can't". Sakurai would have found a way to work around Toon Sheik's short legs. But like I said before, when we talk about clones we were referring to their special moves and not their regular moves so it doesn't matter if Toon Sheik kicks or not, she would still have been a clone of Sheik when it comes to her special moves.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

That's not the usual definetion of clone...

Lugi shares 2 moves with Mario and aren't considered clones, but Ganon and Falcon use two of the same moves but are considered clones.

Wolf shares two similar moves Blaster and reflector, the reflector being the only one that is exactly the same. The blaster is more shotgun-esque (close range oriented). His Side and Up specials look similar but the angle on the Side and the Speed on the Up make them differnet In my (and most) people's books.

Special moves are going to be copied, becuase there are only so many ways to implement certain fatures. Ike and Marth have a counter, and a quick rising mostly vertical revoery move, are they clones?

 

[Big-Cat]

And people can also decide not to change their minds, too. You still want Kumatora. I still want Duck Hunt Dog. Fatmanonice still wants Geno. Smashchu still don't want Tingle. Just to name a few examples.

About Sukapon, Sakurai already turned him down for Melee but some fans insisted that there were just programming issues that prevented Sukapon's inclusion. Well, Sakurai had ample time to come up with a way to resolve those issues for Brawl and he still didn't include Sukapon anyway. He wasn't even considered for Brawl. Programming issues, my foot.

I believe that there were indeed something like programming issues during Melee for Sukapon. For Brawl however, we really can't tell. Remember that 60% or something like that was spent working on the Subpar Emissary and the Online mode.

From the looks of things, if there was a character that likely had to be programmed differently than usual, or whatever's consistent with the current cast, it would've taken a long time to determine the proper code, debugging and whatnot. If the percentage is true, than there might not have been a lot of time for incredibly different characters like Sukapon and Ridley (who they didn't even consider). So to an extent, you can say time constraints were involved.

 

[SmashChu]

That's Plusle and Minun.

Not nessisarily. The other theory is that the is just the random box. Both Popo and Nana have their own files. If Plusle and Minun were a duo, they would have been separate. Also, there is no data for the random box. There is more too it, but that is the gist of it.

And people can also decide not to change their minds, too. You still want Kumatora. I still want Duck Hunt Dog. Fatmanonice still wants Geno. Smashchu still don't want Tingle. Just to name a few examples.

Hey, don't misquote me. I didn't say I didn't want Tingle. I was arguing that Sakurai would not add Tingle. Both Toise and I liked Tingle despite the fact we were arguing that he would not be in. In reverse, Fatman hates Tingle and he was arguing that Tingle would be included.

Also, it's "doesn't" not "don't." You use don't for second and first person.

I do not care if Wolf acts differently from Fox and Falco. He still uses the same special moves Fox and Falco use. I think that when we talk about clones, I believe we were referring to similar special moves (including the Final Smashes) and not the regular moves (the A moves).

Technically, that's not a clone, but a Luigi. Clones have the exact same movements with different effects. Luigis have the same special moves (or very similar ones) but all the other attacks are different. There is no true clone in Brawl. Ganondorf and Toon Link come the closest, but are still different enough.