OFFICIAL Sonic rFAQ! New to Sonic? Have a quick question? Ask it here!

[Espy Rose]

You forgot to mention that Lucario has a very good evasive tactic in his rolls, and that most, if not all of his attacks start faster than Sonic's.

 

[Super Mallow]

Thanks for the response.

I can see all that. Especially with the problems KO-ing Lucario, because that Aura hits hard the longer the stock goes and subsequently, the longer the match endures. And of course, the range and jab. Those are hard to break through and work around sometimes.

I'm still surprised though that it's a -3. While Lucario has a definitive edge, it seems more like a -2. If a Sonic can hide its tactics well, it's doable. Well, that's my personal opinion anyways, not that it matters too much nor is long enough lol.

I just haven't viewed a particular Sonic matchup in a while (since I don't necessarily main Sonic anymore), and it caught my attention. I look at the matchup chart all the time, just didn't have a specific character I was focusing on.

 

[Espy Rose]

To be fair, if the Lucario hides his tactics well, then that kinda nulls it out.
What Lucario lacks in comparison to Sonic's sheer number of options, he makes up for in the safety, speed, and reliability of what he DOES have.

 

[Kinzer]

You forgot to mention that Lucario has a very good evasive tactic in his rolls, and that most, if not all of his attacks start faster than Sonic's.

Well I'll give you the former, but what's this about Lucario having faster attack speed than Sonic? If I didn't know better, he was slightly slower, unless they were even, in which case it's just a matter of him having better range on his attacks that makes it impossible to close in on him safely.

Nothing you didn't already know though really. Just trying to clarify for myself/anyone else.

 

[Super Mallow]

Well I think Sonic's jab starts on Frame 3? And Lucario's is 6? Is that accurate? I looked it up on here but don't want to speak for others XD.

I wouldn't say Lucario's attacks are faster. UTitl most likely is and his forward/up aerial. I'm not looking at a complete list of frame data, so I apologize if I'm wrong. But I'm guessing that Sonic's Jab/Dtit and maybe possibly forward tilt come out faster than Lucario's Ftilt? I know his UTilt is faster.

Not that it matters much with shielding, it's just more of a curiosity thing tbh. I'm not trying to go too in depth

 

[Espy Rose]

For the amount of coverage they give him? Yes, I'd say Lucario's attacks are faster.

 

[Kinzer]

That is accurate but you have to consider the characters as a whole.

I'll be the first to tell you Sonic is surprisingly... or disappointingly slow.

FTilt and DTil both hit on frame 6, UTilt hits on frame 7. Uair/Fair/Nair all hit on some combination of 5/6. Grab is obviously six.

That's everything for Sonic that's faster than ten frames. If you want to count Spring Jump's Spring Coil hitting on frame four, fine. I'm onlyl ooking at what matters though, the slower but usually more ranged attacks are with Bair hitting on frame 13, FSmash hitting on frame 18 I believe, DSmash hitting on frame 17, and besides DSmash which covers a specific range, everything is either even slower, or isn't worth a head nod.

Lucario I couldn't tell you. I've looked at him somewhat, but I didn't care to remember what was what exactly. I can tell you that jab hits on frame 6, UTilt may hit anywhere betwen frame 5-7, but the hitbox starts behind him so kinda meh. Aura Sphere the soonest it can be shot is frame 13, Fair is frame 6, Dair is frame 4, Bair is frame 15, Uair is frame 8 or 10, Uair is 10 or 8 9 9I'm not sure which is which but those numbers are right). I can't tell you anything about his smash attacks or tilts aside from DTilt which I believe is frame 6.

... Pfff, Espy is probably right on that point the more I think about it. At least in terms of start-up lag. I just know that for all I care to or need to... or even want to know, it's Lucario's cooldown lag that can be more punishable than Sonic's. again I'm just trying to consider what matters, I'm not going to be super technical/butthurt about the other things that very rarely, if even at all have any relevance.

 

[Super Mallow]

Fair enough, I can see that point and accept it.

 

[Ceviana]

Well I think Sonic's jab starts on Frame 3? And Lucario's is 6? Is that accurate? I looked it up on here but don't want to speak for others XD.

I thought Sonic's jab was bad though...
Sonic is rather slow attackwise, compared to what his attack speed should be. And his jab seems really really slow. Or maybe I just expect to much speed.

Omglol I'm sooooooo late.

 

[Dru2]

Forgive me, but i'm still hopelessly confused on how to perform the Stutter-Step.

Can anyone explain the button-inputs, when to execute, etc. ?

 

[Kinzer]

Do a run one way, smash the C-Stick the opposite way.

 

[da K.I.D.]

that was a terribly vague, simple, and incorrect answer.

 

[Life]

There are multiple ways to stutterstep:

1. Do an fsmash in the opposite direction you're facing. Sonic's turnaround gives you a slight step.

2. Tap the control stick towards the opponent, then immediately (within a couple frames) tap the cstick towards the opponent. You should dash, and then immediately cancel into an fsmash.

3. Do method 2, but tap away instead. All this does is turn around twice so that you're doing method 1 forward instead of backward.

4. This one's trickier and has a greater trip chance, but gets the most distance. Tap the control stick towards the opponent. Immediately tap the control stick away (think dash dancing), and immediately after THAT tap the cstick towards the opponent. What this does is dash forward for a short distance (like in method 2), and then turn around, and then turn around again for the fsmash (like in method 1 and 3).

I'm doing this from memory (I rarely use stutterstep) so it might not be 100% accurate but it's pretty close.

 

[da K.I.D.]

^^^ is a much more defined, detailed and correct response

 

[Kinzer]

that was a terribly vague, simple, and incorrect answer.

FAQs tend to get quick responses for their quick questions.

^^^ is a much more defined, detailed and correct response

Tell me why my answer isn't "incorrect," but rather just incomplete. I did not bother to explain DDPSSFSmashes because Being able to DDP is something else all-together. If you want, I will admit that if you can run and smash the same way I did not know that because I don't bother with SSs due to how risky and commited you end up.

I'm probably not in the best mood after waking up with only five hours of sleep, but I hate being told "I'm wrong" when I'm anything but.

I also didn't see you tell the guy anything different; instead spending that potential time criticizing me. But I ain't even mad.

 

[Dru2]

Thanks guys. I had a suspicion there were multiple way to do a stutterstep.

Also, no need to start arguing over a silly question.

 

[Tesh]

alot of names for those techniques

stutter step
reverse stutter step
dash cancel
dash cancel reverse stutter step
salmon smash

 

[SoupaSonic]

Does anyone know if d-throw does that weird stage thing to D3 on any other characters? I found out it kinda does something like it to lucario when sonic's back is to the ledge and you grab lucario super close to the edge. It hits him off the side of stages like bf, sv, fd, ps1, and some other stages. It works on frigate too and on the left side of the first transformation it sends him diagonally down. Idk if anyone knew about this and I just wanna know if it works on anyone else cuz I found out some ways to get lucario in this position

 

[da K.I.D.]

we never did do any research on to what characters it works on and what stages besides ddd on the right of bf. that was the only one that was confirmed.

if you want to put some time into training mode and figure that out for us on the legal stages, that would be sweet actually.

the frigate bit is good to know actually, since a lot of lucs like to cp there.

 

[Life]

Really anything that helps us with Lucario is very, VERY welcome. And I bet it'd be broken on fastfallers if it works on any.

If I get a chance I'll try some stuff. I'd assume it's caused by dthrow putting your opponent low enough that they go to the side and hit the wall, right?. Which means they should be able to tech and jump. (But why does it only work on one side of BF for the DDD example? What's different about the right ledge, again? It might be a hint.)

 

[Kinzer]

if you want to put some time into training mode and figure that out for us on the legal stages, that would be sweet actually.

Not even training mode, knockback scales are different and never decay unless you run the codes through Homebrew. If you want to apply it to real matches, find it in the multi-player side.

But why does it only work on one side of BF for the DDD example? What's different about the right ledge, again? It might be a hint.

Sakurai put so little effort into this game that stages that are suppose to be symmetrical... aren't actually symmetrical despite giving that illusion.

 

[Life]

I know that, Kinzer. I was hoping for something more specific, like "it's sloped a little" or "the ledge grab box is different" or something like that.

 

[da K.I.D.]

kinzy is just chock full of bad answers today.

 

[SoupaSonic]

Really anything that helps us with Lucario is very, VERY welcome. And I bet it'd be broken on fastfallers if it works on any.

If I get a chance I'll try some stuff. I'd assume it's caused by dthrow putting your opponent low enough that they go to the side and hit the wall, right?. Which means they should be able to tech and jump. (But why does it only work on one side of BF for the DDD example? What's different about the right ledge, again? It might be a hint.)

That is pretty much what happens and I think they probably could tech it but eh.

it seems to work on all starters but Yoshi's which kinda sucks. It works on Castle siege's first and last transformations, I'm interested in how it works on lylat and Castle siege's lava transformation because the way the stages tilt make me think a stage spike is possible but idk. Also it seems that it might not work at high percentages but that just may be me messing it up. I haven't been able to test it with staling and stuff yet, and to be honest you need to be REALLY close to the edge. Like sonic's back foot needs to look like it's hanging off so idk how viable it is since like Kinzer said, I need to test it in a real match. But a set up I thought of is you could try to jablock the lucario to the ledge then pivot grab them when as they get up or just pivot grab them when they get up on stage.

Oh and the counter pick stages that I've tested are PS2, RC on the left side of the ship (and I'm sure there are many other spots.), and on frigate I got it to work on both transformations but only the first part sends them at an angle. I think someone mentioned a while ago how the left ledge has a lip to it or something. I didn't test any of the other stages yet but I doubt they'd work on any of them besides maybe on some spots on Delfino.

EDIT: I just tested how it'd work on Delfino and on some transformations it could send them into the water, and when you're on top of that building with the walk off to the left, if you do it on the right it sends them pretty close to the blast zone, which could make for a nice early kill with bair. Also it works magnificently on both of the island transformations. The one next to the pierish like thing sends them into the water quickly and I think it may be almost guaranteed bair which is amazing for killing. The other island where you can see the pillars with grass on them does almost the same thing but not as good. There's more time for them to move and because of this I think that that lucario might be able to jump or bair. But idk if his bair outranges ours, but at killing percentages I'm sure it would cuz of the aura . It also works on the pillars but that doesn't seem very useful. I'm gonna test it on halberd now.

EDIT #2!: IT STAGE SPIKES ON HALBERD...it also seems that if we drop a spring at a critical moment, that's a stock off of them . Extreme speed doesn't cling to the side of the ship except maybe right by the ledge...but if that spring hits right they can't even reach it!

 

[da K.I.D.]

remember, all the characters react differently so you have to test it on all of them. I wont make you organise it all tho. if you just post the raw data here, Ill take care of that.

the only real ways to set it up in an actual match is if you: 1. roll towards the ledge behind their get up or ledge attack. or 2. if you read a spot dodge and pivot grab them while sliding toward the edge.

 

[SoupaSonic]

alright I'll try start testing again tomorrow, but so far what I got is that it doesn't work on MK, Snake, Diddy, Wolf, or Falco on smashville. That's with sonic's back facing the ledge and when he is facing the ledge. Also I tried on both ledges but no dice.

well I was just messing with the lucario thing again and I found out that on the building on delfino, it kills at 150. But that is kinda unsafe to be going for that especially when Lucario's that powerful. Also I think it's possible to live with some DI

 

[da K.I.D.]

theres like 5 buildings on delfino. which one are you talking about specifically?

also, if I had to tell you, id say start with battlefield first since its the one place where we know its guaranteed on at least one character. and then just go down the tier list. and than move to another stage and rinse and repeat, itll probably be the easiest and least time intensive for you that way.

 

[SoupaSonic]

The one with the blast zone you could just walk to on the left, and has a drop off on the right without a ledge. I think it's the only real building, I think in Mario Sunshine it was a hotel or something idk

 

[SoupaSonic]

ok sorry about double posting but it looks like on battlefield it only works on Lucario and D3. I started testing on the other characters a little late so I haven't done any other stages but it probably wouldn't work on any others.

 

[Tesh]

Well you can dthrow people on the edge of thin platforms and they will go under them. Any platform you can jump through, including Halberd and Delfino main platforms. I think its only heavies and people that DI down. Pretty useful against any Snake that buffers the airdodge/tech or w/e.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ill start a tally.

Battlefield: Right side.
Lucario
D3

Halberd: Ship (both sides)
Lucario.

Delfino: Right side of hotel, Low-ceiling pillars, and sandy island.
Lucario

Frigate: All 3 Ledges?
Lucario

Smashville
Lucario

Final Destination
Lucario

Pokemon Stadium 1
Lucario.

Castle Siege: First and last stage
Lucario

Is that right so far?

 

[Life]

Maybe this deserves a thread?

 

[SoupaSonic]

Ill start a tally.

Battlefield: Right side.
Lucario
D3

Halberd: Ship (both sides)
Lucario.

Delfino: Right side of hotel, Low-ceiling pillars, and sandy island.
Lucario

Frigate: All 3 Ledges?
Lucario

Smashville
Lucario

Final Destination
Lucario

Pokemon Stadium 1
Lucario.

Castle Siege: First and last stage
Lucario

Is that right so far?

That's pretty much it but it works on lylat too. Besides that the one's you listed are the only ones worth mentioning since the one's you didn't mention aren't of much use. Also on Frigate you can do it on the right side of the first transformation as well, it might be useful to force an upb from lucario which could give us some free damage on them. There's another on delfino at the transformation in front of the hotel and the water on the side. Also it seems like the tilt of ship on lylat affects the angle lucario is sent. I think when I tried it I was on the right side when the ship tilted to the right and it send lucario slightly downwards instead of just sideways. Oh and it seems like as long as there's a drop off to a flat wall you can do it except on YI

btw Incom I don't think a thread should be started just yet. But if we find ways to take advantage of this then I think it could be nice to start a thread about it.

Also has anyone else tried this out yet? It's not as good as the D3 one on any stage but Halberd, however it does seem to leave lucario in a bad position.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i mean, as much as some of these kids stay whining, we could always use some more anti-jackal technology.

 

[SoupaSonic]

Oh ok word dude. Btw I was wrong about it not working on Yoshi's Island. I just tried it again and it works fine.

 

[Life]

This post entirely refers to the gimp as done on Lucario, BTW.

Messing around with it now. Looks like there isn't a lot of knockback growth to it, which makes sense because dthrow has very little itself. Also, the gimp works on both sides of BF for Lucario, even though D3 only does it once.

It also works on both sides of PS2 during the basic, ice, and ground transformations as normal, since their ledges are normal. On the air transformation, it technically works, but due to reduced gravity it isn't as useful. On the electric transformation, it's probably possible if you time it _exactly_ right, since it's roughly the same shape as the air transformation. However, I can't tell this for certain.

I have a theory as to what causes this, but I need to investigate more.

Checking RC now, will edit.

RC: So far, it works on the right side of the boat but not the left both sides of the boat, and the right side both sides of the bottom platform in the rising section (the left side might actually kill off the side at high percents). It works on the left side of the block after the pendulum, but Lucario lands on the nearby platform obviously so it might not be useful (unless you can get a jablock setup somehow?). If by some miracle you get it on a donut block, that probably works too since it's flat (and might even set up stuff since it'll drag you down).

That looks like all the legal stages for Lucario. Gonna try out other characters and see what goes on.

One more thing for Lucario: this thing is utterly amazing on Jungle Japes, assuming that stage becomes legal. You can get croc setups on any of the four inside ledges, and if they miss the tech Lucario is forced to the water on the two innermost ones. Best part? The third ledge from the left is an OHKO if done properly (though I only tested low percents)--Lucario can't escape the water quickly enough to recover!

HOWEVER: I do have bad news.

...

Looks like if Lucario DIs up he escapes the gimp. Sorry guys However, most Lukes won't know this, so feel free to try it on them anyway. (The wall tech is easy though so eh)

Anyway, I'll be checking other characters, using the right side of BF to test it and see what makes this phenomenon occur.

____________________

The DDD gimp on BF kills him outright at around 140, maybe a little less. I'll try messing with him next. I think DDD's gimp on the right side of BF is unique to that stage's shape, but I didn't check thoroughly.

My theory is that it has something to do with Lucario's tail. Notice the way it hangs over the ledge when you're dthrowing. The tail (as far as I can tell) has a hurtbox of its own, and it's this hurtbox that strikes the side of the stage and makes Luke bounce. Someone with the code to see hurtboxes (did we ever find a real one or not?) needs to check it out. However, this doesn't work on Charizard, so it might not be that (his tail is different in the dthrow animation though). And it doesn't explain D3...

EDIT: Missed the part where you said you checked BF. D'oh.

I'm wondering if (bar the DI/tech things) there are any non-solid ledges Luke's gimp doesn't work on?

Also, while bored and waiting to double-check the pillars on Delfino, I think I found out some stuff about shield breaks... not that it matters much. Mainly that it's possible to mash out of them, VERY slightly so--it only saves about a second, better to save your energy for the DI--and that it seems to work slightly differently from mashing out of grabs. That's it, really.

 

[SoupaSonic]

Hey thank you for finding this stuff out Incom. Do you think that maybe it could work on pikachu on certain stages?

 

[Life]

I hadn't thought of Pika. If Delfino ever gives me that stupid pillar transformation (I've been sitting here for like 20 minutes now and it won't come up, I even tried restarting the match a couple times!) I'll be testing to see if Lucario can jump before hitting the water, since you brought it up. Then I'll check.

Either way, I'm glad I can be of use for once instead of whining about how bad I am, haha.

EDIT: Lucario can definitely jump out on the pillar phase (geez, it took forever to get to it though!).

EDITagain: Doesn't work on Pikachu. Checked left side of Frigate 1 and both sides of SV.

What I REALLY want to know is why the D3 gimp works.

 

[da K.I.D.]

probably body positioning after/during down throw.

 

[Life]

It has to be something really weird or obscure, because DDD doesn't appear to hit the wall when you do his gimp--it's basically a perfect spike. It's sorta like he gets pushed off the ledge and then gains a ton of downward momentum. It definitely involves the last hit of dthrow because the KB scales with damage--it's not like DDD is falling off the side... it's really strange. Maybe smashlabs can help?