Data Official MU thread : Breaking Clouds Limits.

[Honor]

Looks like Fox discussion is pretty much done.

Can we talk more about the Yellow Rat that is impossible to hit?

 

[pichuthedk]

Looks like Fox discussion is pretty much done.

Can we talk more about the Yellow Rat that is impossible to hit?

I'm all for it I seriously just Johed the write up because I felt like I would be talking out of my butt.

Pikachu is a mu I have dread since brawl and him being alot better in this game doesn't help me with that.

 

[Shaya]

tl;dr to pikachu:

You know what moves are hard to beat: Up Tilt, Quick Attack, Back Air
Don't challenge them or attempt immediate punishments unless you're ahead of the ball game in pressure.

Sometimes a mindset of holding shield and minimising impact of getting grabbed (against Pika it usually isn't scary beyond early percent).
Slow and steady wins the race.

 

[Honor]

tl;dr to pikachu:

You know what moves are hard to beat: Up Tilt, Quick Attack, Back Air
Don't challenge them or attempt immediate punishments unless you're ahead of the ball game in pressure.

Sometimes a mindset of holding shield and minimising impact of getting grabbed (against Pika it usually isn't scary beyond early percent).
Slow and steady wins the race.

It feels like those three things are my only tools in the MU

I see your point about slow and steady though, when I lose to a solid Pika (which is often these days) it's usually because I get frustrated and my spacing gets sloppy.

 

[AstroCRiS]

tl;dr to pikachu:

You know what moves are hard to beat: Up Tilt, Quick Attack, Back Air
Don't challenge them or attempt immediate punishments unless you're ahead of the ball game in pressure.

Sometimes a mindset of holding shield and minimising impact of getting grabbed (against Pika it usually isn't scary beyond early percent).
Slow and steady wins the race.

Why I Alt. Mario ._.

 

[Octavium]

A bit sorry for just barging in the discussion like this, but cloud seems to have very solid zoning tools that give ZSS a very very hard time.

https://youtu.be/lOCVLG7DaMk?t=9m3s

Nairo was 2stocked by Tweek in this video, as you can see Cloud is very fast and his crazy large aerial disjointed hitboxes give him priority over most of Zamus' options. (I think his projectile might also beat the paralyser but I haven't tested)

On top of that Cloud has kill confirms with his sourspot Dair and falling Uair that are generally much safer than Zamus' grab for downthrow. This would probably be a good matchup to talk about.

 

[AstroCRiS]

A bit sorry for just barging in the discussion like this, but cloud seems to have very solid zoning tools that give ZSS a very very hard time.

https://youtu.be/lOCVLG7DaMk?t=9m3s

Nairo was 2stocked by Tweek in this video, as you can see Cloud is very fast and his crazy large aerial disjointed hitboxes give him priority over most of Zamus' options. (I think his projectile might also beat the paralyser but I haven't tested)

On top of that Cloud has kill confirms with his sourspot Dair and falling Uair that are generally much safer than Zamus' grab for downthrow. This would probably be a good matchup to talk about.

here's what I got:

Fair is safe on shield. Nair stuffs us and autocancels. Don't challenge DAIR, or UAIR. Instead power shield Dair, and jump out of Uair. Limit break Side B is unpunishable. I find that Dt-Uair-Uair-UpB works at 48-55%. Flip Kick back to to the ledge and kick Cloud's ****ty UpB back to the depths. Try to hit him horizontally. Be around mid distance from him, close enough to keep him from camping and charging, but far enough to avoid his sword.

 

[tonyz723]

here's what I got:

Fair is safe on shield. Nair stuffs us and autocancels. Don't challenge DAIR, or UAIR. Instead power shield Dair, and jump out of Uair. Limit break Side B is unpunishable. I find that Dt-Uair-Uair-UpB works at 48-55%. Flip Kick back to to the ledge and kick Cloud's ****ty UpB back to the depths. Try to hit him horizontally. Be around mid distance from him, close enough to keep him from camping and charging, but far enough to avoid his sword.

I totally agree, and to add to this: Don't try to punish up-smash unless it hits your shield/powershield, or you know the player will tend to hold shield afterwards. It recovers faster than you think, and if your opponent decides to go for a down-tilt, it'll probably beat out whatever option you were gonna try to punish with.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Cloud is at least even or slightly in our favour.
We have good tools to beat his range, we have better evading options than most of the cast especially thanks to flip kick and we have an easy time gimping him offstage.
Also his limit actually helps us combo him longer.
I recommend watching the bayo/corrin niconico tourney from yesterday. Nairo beat a very good cloud quite significantly, including a 0 to kill with a hype kick gimp.

 

[Octavium]

Cloud is at least even or slightly in our favour.
We have good tools to beat his range, we have better evading options than most of the cast especially thanks to flip kick and we have an easy time gimping him offstage.
Also his limit actually helps us combo him longer.
I recommend watching the bayo/corrin niconico tourney from yesterday. Nairo beat a very good cloud quite significantly, including a 0 to kill with a hype kick gimp.

Yeah I agree with you, Cloud doesn't seem to be as much of a force as I thought.

Also, didja have a link to that match?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Yeah I agree with you, Cloud doesn't seem to be as much of a force as I thought.

Also, didja have a link to that match?

I actually don't lol, sorry.
I had a ****ty recording before my browser caught fire, but it seems that this was the only one out there since niconico doesn't allow rewatching a stream for basic members.
I'll dig through the 4chan archives later today, maybe I can still find it.

Octavium here you go, the whole niconico stream is on this twitch channel: nintendopsx

 

[Shaya]

I think the main thing about the Cloud match up is just how freely he gets combo'd like a fatty.

Otherwise what he has is realistically difficult for her to handle head on like she can against most other characters.
She can have a good time opting for crawls a lot though.

Oh and then there is flip jump against his bull **** disjoints on his vertical stalling/recovering that 90% of the cast cannot beat but yay beeeeg disjoint on our heel~

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I think the main thing about the Cloud match up is just how freely he gets combo'd like a fatty.

Otherwise what he has is realistically difficult for her to handle head on like she can against most other characters.
She can have a good time opting for crawls a lot though.

Oh and then there is flip jump against his bull **** disjoints on his vertical stalling/recovering that 90% of the cast cannot beat but yay beeeeg disjoint on our heel~

I know Cloud mains must be tired of hearing the argument that his recovery is SOOOO BAAAAAD but seriously, I don't think there are many if any other characters that get flip kick spiked as easily as he does.

He goes in a straight path
He doesn't immediately grab the ledge
He has a fixed distance
The height is small so it's easy to guess when he initiates it
He has no threatening hitbox to our flip kick

Seriously. If Cloud needs to recover without limit charged, there is literally no excuse to not send him to his immediate death every single time.

 

[Djmarcus44]

The Gunner boards are currently discussing the ZSS matchup. We are currently discussing 0/0 3312 gunner's matchup with ZSS, but we would also appreciate discussion on 1111 50/50 gunner's matchup against ZSS.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The Rosalina sub-forum is analyzing Zero Suit Samus again this week. Here's the link to the page if you have anything to contribute.

http://smashboards.com/threads/409972/

 

[Claire Redfield]

I got totally trashed by a Shulk player earlier. I couldn't figure out how to approach and kept getting comboed like it was going out of style. Of course he used Buster, so he racked up damage ridiculously fast, which only added to the frustration. Had a bit of problems with Mac and Lucina, too, but it was the Shulk I just couldn't seem to touch no matter what I did. How do I fight him?

Argh. I really want to get better at this game, but every time I think I'm improving, I get completely crushed by someone and have to fight discouragement.

 

[Megamang]

If you are having a problem with a certain monado, just camp it out. He is much more punishable if he is trying to force an approach in a limited timeframe, and he can't be buster all the time.

 

[Claire Redfield]

And how on Earth do I approach the Cloud matchup? I can't even get close. He can spam Blade Beam more easily than I can return fire, and seem to fall prey to all his moves, lose priority every time, and so on.

 

[pichuthedk]

If you are having a problem with a certain monado, just camp it out. He is much more punishable if he is trying to force an approach in a limited timeframe, and he can't be buster all the time.

I know this sounds dumb but I have literally seen shulks start a tournament match VS me in a monado I don't like (speed) and since I'm at 0 I literally say eff it and just tether on the ledge to stall for time, I mean what's he gonna do Spike me at 0% and then gimp zss of all people so close to wall jump country?

And how on Earth do I approach the Cloud matchup? I can't even get close. He can spam Blade Beam more easily than I can return fire, and seem to fall prey to all his moves, lose priority every time, and so on.

so many thing literally clash with blade beam IIRC you can most likely cancel it out and counter attack with zair.

PRetty sure you can just cancel it out on the ground with tilts or even jabs. You really can't commit to cloud much because if you make a mistake then you are either dead or took 50% for no reason, Some examples below include..

-You were comboing him and didn't pay attention to limit break and when you down throw him planning on getting the up air juggle he got his limit break and used finishing touch. Now your dead from anywhere as low as 25% since you were not on the ground.

-You try to edge guard him and instead of just letting him grab the ledge and attempting to punish his get up option you get spiked by up b or fair.

-Your playing footsies and decide to try and grab him after getting him to shield a couple ground moves, Now he down tilts you can gets like 3 up airs netting him 30+%.

Cloud is a weird MU basically one of you guys will style on the other if one is not cautious about his burst or kill potential off of nothing, I seriously wouldn't be surprised if they can do some random shinanegans like down tilting you near the edge of the stage and full hop fair spiking you at certain %s.

Take things slow but remember that Cloud is faster then one would expect him to be with that huge @$$ sword.

 

[Claire Redfield]

Thanks. I'll just try to adjust my game and see. The problem is that these players, after kicking my pert little behind, tend to bail after a game or three, so I don't get more experience with the matchup!

Oh, last night I ran into a Bowser Jr. who was the best I'd seen. I couldn't approach him. I couldn't do anything with Zelda or even ZSS. The only way I was able to beat him was with Corrin, and only barely. He just seemed to outmaneuver me at every turn. Do you know how we stop him?

 

[Megamang]

ZSS should outmanuever BowJow at every turn. Think of him like a slow sonic, he doesn't have as much mobility as it seems at first. Was he all over the place with his Kart?

He can either hit you directly with it for followups (worst hitbox, can be beaten by nair or zair or even grab), spin it out for a better hitbox but less followups, or jump to cancel it. It also has two speeds. With this knowledge, you should be watching for which one he favors and beating it. You can go up to avoid him, then immediately aerial him if he tries something like jump-aerial. His aerials, while disjointed, are pretty slow on startup and landing lag, so ours are better in most situations.

His dair has much less lag if it hits you or your shield, so don't try and punish it out of shield, but if he misses you can often run up and grab his landing, if you had started this before.

He is actually more vulnerable if you hit him, rather than his kart. This is mostly not relevant, since you should just go for the hit whenever possible, but know that a juggle situation out of the kart, especially one that ends in boost kick or flip kick spike, does more knockback to him than normal.

If you can bait his hammer swing, he will be vulnerable to edgeguards. Also, if you can, avoid getting hit with kart around.. im not sure of the percents, probably 80%ish, rage dependent and DI dependent. He can do kart->instand jump -> hammer swing, and get a kill out of it shockingly early.

Learn to SDI his rapid jab if you were taking lots of damage from this, since it seems strong at first but is actually pretty terrible. Good BowJows will be dtilting as a jab, but ours is so much faster... You should win most CQC situations. He has a tether grab but much MUCH worse followups, so abuse shield like they are a lesser ZSS.

If he is doing shenanigans with the mechakoopa on the ground as a setup, you can pressure him when he is trying to get the koopa out... or if he is far away, you can grab the koopa and chuck it back at him for pressure. Paralyzer will stop the kart but can be blocked out by the koopa. A well setup koopa and kart dash can be hard to directly overcome, just avoid it and start fighting him again when it is advantageous, as again, he is actually pretty slow when he out of the kart.

These are just random specifics from a casual BowJow player, i'd need footage or at least examples of what causes you problems for more specific advice. Again, his CQC is meh and his actual mobility is pretty bad, he relies on his specials for the illusion of mobility. If he is comboing you at early percents, try and dodge the setup moves but don't worry... his juggle game is actually really strong, but if you don't let it turn into a kill situation you can turn the game around once he is done juggling.

I'd pick something with a small ceiling or high platforms, FD is slightly rough due to his good landing options but you can punish his landing just as well with grabs and juggles, so I wouldn't say ZSS loses anywhere.

 

[pichuthedk]

Whelp ladies it's been an eternity but we're back and we've been nerfed let's try to grind out some mu's.

I figured cloud should be dealt with since we have our work cut out for us some of the time, stuff like his down tilt and shield pressure followed by the mental pressure of always being forced to approached because of them limit breaks.

Include in your posts what we should discuss after , Bayo might be good unless there are some characters got some buffs that make you feel uneasy*cough* charizard *cough*.

 

[pichuthedk]

*Fraudulent reservation for writeup*

 

[AstroCRiS]

I feel like Bayo, and Cloud should be addressed. Cloud already has to an extent, personally still love that matchup and still think it's in our favor, (although only slightly now) but Bayo can be tricky.
Also I'm still having trouble with Diddy if anyone cares, No, okeiiii :C

 

[Shaya]

Diddy has a lot to do with being comfortable with items, understanding the differences in his frame data and options with a banana (people tend to play like he has all his other options on top of the banana, overtly respecting him and messing up because of it), respecting / trying to outspace forward air and tons of patience.
Crouching/crawling and patience.

IMO, the cloud match up got slightly 'better' for us with the latest patch.
Us not dying as easily to up air is very nice, seriously where most of the threat was IMO.
And with the dthrow changes leading reliably into forward airs (or bairs) at mid percent, we have a slightly more optimal positional advantage gain from grabbing him; he can't avoid fair chains and we can take him to his grave with them.

I don't get to play bayonetta enough (yet)~

 

[BatShark]

I think Bayonetta is a negative MU for us, but not hugely. Can explain in more detail later, having pretty good experience with Bayos of all stripes at this point.

I *still* don't know how I would rate the Cloud MU. I think people were far too hasty in rushing to write it off as bad for us, and I think we have plenty of tools to play it well, including down B which dumpsters his recovery at any %. My thinking so far is that a lot of the struggle in that MU is because we have to play it a little more uncomfortably than most others, and that this contributes to a lot of people thinking it's worse than it is.

 

[pichuthedk]

I think Bayonetta
is a negative MU for us, but not hugely. Can explain in more detail later, having pretty good experience with Bayos of all stripes at this point.

I *still* don't know how I would rate the Cloud MU. I think people were far too hasty in rushing to write it off as bad for us, and I think we have plenty of tools to play it well, including down B which dumpsters his recovery at any %. My thinking so far is that a lot of the struggle in that MU is because we have to play it a little more uncomfortably than most others, and that this contributes to a lot of people thinking it's worse than it is.

I kinda feel like have a lot of grid lock type standoffs of 50/50's

Either we use our terrible grab and she which times into it ,or we use delayed things like downsmash and running up and charging paralyzer in her face. althought you would have to mix it up alot. Feel like getting grabs from her will be hard but kinda easier at the same time.

She is also a tall lady might be easier to hit.

 

[Abbey Street]

"Samus. I have a new mission for you.

There's a new threat that has been terrorizing residents of New K2L. He seems to go by the moniker 'Ganondorf, King of Evil'. Common descriptions tell of him using what seems to be alien technology to eviscerate residents and animals alike, as well as destroy vegetation and raze buildings in violet flames.

Your mission is simple: Terminate the target with extreme prejudice. You will be authorized to use any means necessary to neutralize the target. However, I don't want you to enter this mission unprepared; I fear one mistake could get you killed, given that this time you are without your power suit. I suggest you prepare by visiting this "Ganon Matchup Thread" and read, discuss and observe before beginning your mission.

Any objections, lady?"

Click here to gather and discuss intel on Ganondorf

 

[pichuthedk]

I am going to try and write up cloud we can discuss bayo afterwords I'll try for a tomorrow/tonight writeup.

Possibly like 2 days for any other zss's to give their inputs.

 

[andrebound]

Charging paralyzer is bad against bayo as she can simply side b underneath it and punish. Pivot grabs are great for punishing unsafe side b's though.

 

[Mythzotick]

Hey mains! I don't know if I should be posting on this thread or not given how much time has passed, but none the less, the boards are just now opening discussion on the / mu and any insight or experience on this mu would be most appreciated. Thank you!