Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Funkmasterblitz]

So how are those lists going?

 

[Divinokage]

1 month later.. cmon Sveet, it doesnt take THAT long to compile stats. >_< You probably could've done it in one day lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falco Sheik Fox Marth Puff Peach
Falcon ICs
Doc Pika Luigi Samus Mario Ganon

--- don't main beyond this point ---

Link DK YLink Zelda Yoshi Mewtwo Roy G&W (randomly ordered)
Bowser Kirby Ness Pichu (alphabetically ordered)

Hardest placements are mid tier's last four and the bottom of the tier list.

I'll explain anything on Monday.

 

[CyberZixx]

I'd like an in depth explination of why Shiek over fox. I bet you have a lot of intelligent stuff to say on the matter.

 

[BTmoney]

I'd like an in depth explination of why Shiek over fox. I bet you have a lot of intelligent stuff to say on the matter.

I can answer that, probably.
He believes Sheik deals with Falco better than Fox does.

I believe Sheik has an easier time versus Marth than Fox does. I also believe Sheik beats the stupid characters by a much larger margin than Fox. The existence of Sheik's dthrow makes some characters unviable.

edit:

But I believe Fox has a definite edge in the head to head versus Sheik.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I'd like actual ordering for the low tier

I'm probably the only person who cares, but you did say ANYTHING

Also I'd like an explanation for the Luigi Samus Mario Ganon section.

 

[Bones0]

Anyone who thinks they can actually put the low tiers in any meaningful order is kidding themselves. Even ordering the mid tiers is pushing it. Hell, the top tiers alone are hard enough to split up even though they're overwhelmingly more popular than the rest of the cast. There's really no point in breaking down the cast further than the top, middle, and bottom third of the cast until the metagame reaches some sort of plateau (which I honestly don't think will ever happen cuz Melee 2 gud).

 

[WaterlessFishie]

I'll explain anything on Monday.

Interested in your explanation for the ordering of your top 14 chars, since it's Monday and all.

 

[Kink-Link5]

So we've established that

Any ordering of any tiers is impossible and therefore should not be discussed,

and, of course,

Play more,
Don't get hit,
Money Match,
and Fox:Fox is 100:0.

 

[Bones0]

Any ordering of any tiers is impossible and therefore should not be discussed

No, I said the specific ordering of each individual character is unreasonable. The whole point of a tier list is to chunk characters by their general ability to perform in tournament. People can argue forever about whether Marth is better than Peach, and the discussion can be helpful sometimes so no one should mind, but at the end of the day everyone can accept that Marth and Peach are equal enough to be considered the same tier. I hope no one actually thinks a Marth player is significantly more likely to win tournaments than a Peach player (or vice versa).

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'd like an in depth explination of why Shiek over fox. I bet you have a lot of intelligent stuff to say on the matter.

I'm lazy but I'll answer in point form.

- Sheik is better than Fox vs Marth, Peach, Falco at the very least
- Fox is better than Sheik vs ICs and Puff
- Sheik's much less likely to lose to a random weird character

Interested in your explanation for the ordering of your top 14 chars, since it's Monday and all.

To see why I hold Falco in high regard, just sift through a bunch of my recent long posts on Falco's laser and general Melee. All that and more is why he's #1 in my books.

Sheik follows because I feel the next best characters (Fox, Marth, Sheik, Puff) are all basically good for fairly conventional attack-movement positioning games. Sheik is hilariously the worst of the aforementioned batch at the movement half of that formula but then she's got the best attacks and this winds up translating to a more competitive matchup spread than the other three (IMO). Fox and Marth follow since I don't think Puff is as good vs Sheik as she was back in like 2010 and dominance over that character always seems to matter in big tournaments. With respect to Fox and Marth, I basically put Fox above Marth for history I suppose and having an easier time vs crap characters that aren't Samus or Pika but I don't feel particularly strongly about this placement. I feel Falco being such a prolific character makes it tough for Fox to compete and I feel Sheik's side of the Fox-Sheik matchup has just gradually improved over time to the point where she handles Fox fine. Same with Peach-Fox, though Fox has a slight edge there. But yeah, with him not being as dominant in a lot of his historically good matchups I'm not sure he's better than Marth to be honest. Fox is frail and being good at death combos vs him forces the Fox to be so perfect it's kind of silly. I feel a lot of really subtle, small things work against Fox. One example would be that his methods to escape combos vs a lot of random stuff like jab resets, chain grabs, or low percent knockdown attacks are worse than the other FFers by substantial amounts in some instances.

Peach is next because I still feel she's disadvantaged against Marth, Puff, and Sheik. And Fox has a slight advantage over her. But after that I feel she beats or goes even with every character. I end top tier here because I feel these characters have better defensive options when they lose stage control or a certain type of positioning than the next best characters (Falcon and ICs). The exception may be Marth here, but then again Marth isn't made of glass vs Peach like Falcon or Nana.

In regards to mid tiers? I'll level with you, I really have no idea where to put Samus. But lately I really feel her lack of a good throw and overall low combo potential makes her seem so underwhelming. Ganon has no real game except for throwing himself or his attacks around and that's actually terrible. Don't have much else to say about the other characters, except that I guess I think Luigi has a decent chunk of potential and I think Ganon is generally overrated.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You think Sheik is better vs Peach?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Peach can't DI out of Sheik's d-throw kill. I also feel that Sheik's higher SH gives Sheik some useful things vs Peach's float in conjunction with her greater range. Fox is kind of limited in some respects because his nair and dair don't really hit that high off the ground in their SH form, his fair is slow & laggy for how weak it is, and I don't feel laser camping really breaks the matchup because it never seems to beat her anywhere because Fox is made of glass and hits like a girl.







edit: I mean he hits like a girl like Samus. Not a girl like Puff, Sheik, or Peach.

 

[Bones0]

Ganon has no real game except for throwing himself or his attacks around and that's actually terrible. Don't have much else to say about the other characters, except that I guess I think Luigi has a decent chunk of potential and I think Ganon is generally overrated.

Ganon

edit: I mean he hits like a girl like Samus. Not a girl like Puff, Sheik, or Peach.

Peach (same vid)

 

[choknater]

mario is viable but do mario mains still exist anywhere? haha

 

[Strong Badam]

when did mario become viable?

 

[choknater]

well i just looked at kk's list above 'don't main beyond this point' and i agree with his list

he's about as viable as ganon

 

[Strong Badam]

ah

imo the "don't main beyond this point" starts after peach, and after ic's if u really really want falcon to be considered viable

 

[choknater]

hm i see so for you viable means able to win tournaments

i think that's a pretty good way of going about it too

 

[Xyzz]

mario is viable but do mario mains still exist anywhere? haha

I only know of ARookie. And ScorpionMaster, obviously (existence... :D)

I pretty much agree with the "do not main beyond this point" - cutoff KK proposes as well. PAL Yoshi could be in there if it weren't for his horrible Falco match up.

 

[choknater]

pal yoshi (aka leffen) is kind of an outlier, like axe's pikachu

i think they could definitely be viable

in really really great hands

but that could be said about many characters. like young link

but it just takes so much amazingness haha

 

[Xyzz]

Yoshi is really fine against most characters. It's just that his horrible matchups are really, really atrocious.

Playing Falco against characters who can't effectively move out of shield is so free, because he's so good at forcing people into their shield. Well, he hits Yoshi really hard as well and has an amazing edgeguard on him... those two are of course true in return (who the hell doesn't have nice combos on Falco? :D), but he is just so dominating in the neutral position that Yoshi really shouldn't get anything going.
I imagine Sheik would be similar in NTSC, because the constant threat of the chaingrab and guaranteed aerial setups at later percent from dthrow.

Take those away and the matchup is perfectly fine (easily better than most other characters in the "barely viable" tier), same goes for most of his matchups... but yeah, I think Yoshi vs Falco might even be worse than Ganon vs Sheik haha :D

 

[choknater]

yoshi can just light shield to escape a lot of pressure though right?

he does get pushed into the corner though lol

 

[V3ctorMan]

I really do wonder, why most think Yoshi v Falco is THAT bad...? Sure it's bad, but definetely not his worst...

we should talk about another character before, I attempt explaining while noone listens.. (again) lol..

Soooo EVO! Hype!?!?!?

 

[Xyzz]

yoshi can just light shield to escape a lot of pressure though right?

he does get pushed into the corner though lol

Yeah, he can get away from pressure that way. It's just that this is not solving the underlying problem, but rather only postponing it (with even a slightly worse situation: less stage behind him).

Other characters can just shield and work from there (e.g. shield lasers, wd towards the opponent to gain space) or wait for the shield pressure and have chances to counter attack. His inability to jump is really keeping Yoshi from doing anything at all. No WD oos to safely readjust position, horrid shield grab (18 frames) and no up b / aerial OOS to alleviate that issue.

I really do wonder, why most think Yoshi v Falco is THAT bad...? Sure it's bad, but definetely not his worst...

Well, I feel it's definitely his worst out of the characters I play / at least dabble in (Peach, Marth, Falco, Sheik (PAL :D)). I suppose NTSC sheik is horrid as well (i could easily see it as even worse than falco), but ya, I obviously really have no idea about that one.
I'd be really curious about what you think is worse than Falco, if you don't feel like "polluting" the social tier list discussion thread, i'd be happy if you shot me a PM

 

[choknater]

haha vector man i want to hear you talk about yoshi in real life

will you be at evo

edit: mm yeah i guess it sucks if rolling is your only way out

 

[Bones0]

I'd try to argue Marth is Yoshi's worst matchup since he just gets knocked out of his DJ by any tipped aerial at really low percents and they can just camp so hard with fairs and grab. But Vman thinks Yoshi does well in that matchup so WTF do I know. I guess I'll have to wait 'til Vman poops on Ken at Evo to eggtract some more knowledge on the mu.

 

[V3ctorMan]

lol, I'm not gonna poop on anyone, and if there are Marths out there that could do it.. It's Cali's, since their Marth's have ALWAYS given me trouble in the MU... I will admit it's my "favorite" of the high tier MU's.. but no means is it easy... it's likely just because I play Marth's here, had success with Marth, and likely my most recent set with Tai, Wobbles, that AZ got to see me in tourney for the first time in like 2 years, since I'm so far from where the majority of AZ plays.. 3+ hours

 

[Divinokage]

I guess im gonna have to make KK rethink his approach.. It's like he forgot about Ganon entirely, throwing attacks and hope it hits.. it's not 2008 again >_<. His mixups are actually above average while combining that with his power you can turn a match around with one good combo. Him with Falcon can gain momentum very fast. Sometimes Im also hopeless about it but sometimes when on point.. omg.. its way too strong. I suppose that inconsistency hurts the character a lot. But I dont see how he's overrated though, who's overrating him?

 

[JPOBS]

ah

imo the "don't main beyond this point" starts after peach, and after ic's if u really really want falcon to be considered viable

how is falcon not viable when there has historically ALWAYS a falcon in top 8?

For all intents and purposes, Falcon is equally as viable as fox is according to tournament records (sans mango)

 

[Strong Badam]

"equally as viable as fox if you ignore the thing that makes them different"
lol
not to mention pc chris/m2k in 2005-2007.

getting 5th or 7th place over and over is not viability, sorry. not for me

 

[Bones0]

"equally as viable as fox if you ignore the thing that makes them different"
lol
not to mention pc chris/m2k in 2005-2007.

getting 5th or 7th place over and over is not viability, sorry. not for me

I guess Peach will cease to be viable once Armada retires.

 

[JPOBS]

"equally as viable as fox if you ignore the thing that makes them different"
lol
not to mention pc chris/m2k in 2005-2007.

getting 5th or 7th place over and over is not viability, sorry. not for me

Well mango playing any character makes that character viable (see:mario)

But if you think 5th isn't viable, im at a loss

 

[Strong Badam]

dunno if i'd consider 17th at pound 5 a particularly strong showing for mario

 

[KirbyKaze]

Kage the current list has Ganon as significantly better than Mario, Pikachu, and Luigi. I find this completely ridiculous. Oh and I think DK probably belongs in that group now that I reflect on him as a character a bit more. Giant Punch gets **** done and it discourages full screen camps. Trading or beating a platform camping Fox's aerial (or another character) with his up air into DJ punch is a reasonable way to make up ground so he doesn't fall as prey to the platforms = low tier no win because no aerials or mobility = ggnore that cripples a lot of the lower end characters.

Link seems weaker than DK if only because I honestly don't see anything really exploitable about him except <launcher> into as much uair as possible but he doesn't have a good setup for it and he's slow, which limits its utility, and he also lacks a grab that works on airborne foes reliably. This is actually a bigger deal than it sounds because it's how most characters pick up dropped juggles and not having it places more emphasis on hitting projectiles, hobbling the foe, or linking an aerial into grab (bair grab, etc). And I mean a lot of it works but this plus other weaknesses just make it hard for him to keep pace.

 

[Purpletuce]

Just going to say some things about Yoshi.

Marth isn't one of his worst MUs, I think most consider it his best (relevant) MU.

PAL Yoshi only has a few minor differences, the main difference is against Shiek. (His weight, and by extension DJ armor is better in PAL as well, and so are some of his smashes. His D-air is slightly worse, but that isn't a huge deal. . . etc. . . )

Yoshi has a really hard time with Falco, Peach, Shiek, ICs. He has a decently hard time with campy Fox, Falcon and Puff. Considering the prominence of those characters, I wouldn't say Yoshi is above the cutoff. You have to be able to handle the hard MUs to win (unless they're not very adaptive and unfamiliar with the MU).

I wouldn't place him with that top dozen or so unless the player is super super developed.

 

[KirbyKaze]

PAL lists can be discussed in the PAL tier list thread.

 

[FourStar]

i honestly don't understand why there are differences in the different region versions of the games..... just make every region the same.....

 

[choknater]

pal version was released after ntsc version, and some balance changes (that little kids might not notice) were included in PAL

 

[KirbyKaze]

Upon further reflection, I don't think Ganon is as bad as I normally infer he is but he's admittedly got no real base game plan aside from "jump and swing limbs" and basic stuff that runs off his subpar hitboxes or speed. To be fair, Ganon isn't missing much; Ganon would be solid if he had a handful of enormous exploitable, relatively safe ground moves that set up his aerials so he could play like a ghetto Sheik but with no hangups against crouch and that can kill at any moment. He could even maintain stage presence the same way Sheik does (through the quality of his ranged ground pokes) but then the bonus is his WL and air mobility are better so he has some perks over her too. I honestly think all he needs (PM people please read) is something like Yoshi's f-tilt / G&W's d-tilt and Marth's dash attack (with its huge priority in front and uncanny ability to catch people initiating their dash away - make him swing his arm or something).

Anyway, if there's one thing I have to concede that's good for Ganon and possibly puts him above some of the characters I consider stronger like Luigi and Pika, it's his incredibly ability to kill you for a misstep during repositioning. Like, even being the teensiest bit off in your waveland on a plat probably grants him a free aerial mix and mash that's remarkably good at just... killing people. But the flipside, and why I maintain he sucks despite strengths like this, is that he has Falcon's problem in that his ground attacks are garbage so he has no real ground control (Falcon at least has dash dancing and SHFFLs that can kind of be used at ground level). On top of this, his aerials aside from jump away bair are laggy as hell, have restrictive startups, restrictive hitbox placement, and so forth. Which makes them food for a number of simple neutral game strategies that have saturated the board (namely dash dance into grab). So with all this, if you know what you're doing vs Ganon at all then you're probably not repositioning much because platform-based repositioning is mostly reserved for moments when the ground is being controlled and you're running out of space behind you, which means you can't put off a confrontation much longer. Once you get past the fact that he's scary, you kind of realize that Ganon the SSBM character who is limited by his enormous startup times and crappy mobility isn't actually good at any of this.

The other major reason Ganon can win for seemingly no reason is simply the fact that he has the "Falcon Factor" going for him in that he can kill you with 1-2 guesses off a combo starter assuming he makes decent things happen with those guesses. But with a 22% stomp, giant aerials with massive priority, a decent edge hog, and a d-throw that CGs and/or auto combos all the relevant character AFAIK that's not a terribly trying goal if the stars align (get hit, get guess right after hit, then either another good guess or the foe DIed bad or circumstances sucked that time). All his stuff knocks over at like 10% too, so that helps if only because it makes it difficult to reversal him out of tech chases for a number of reasons, while upping his punishment potential at low percent (which is huge for a lower tiered character at this point in the metagame).