LOL working on it. kind of new to melee so you know never really though much of itThats usually the first things you learn in melee and in turn life. Breaking those bad habits.
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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think my book on Melee would be really boring long and not really say much except how to be amazing at it with some of the playable characters.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I have simple goals. I try to educate. I try to make people laugh. I try to alienate Bones0 within the Melee social infrastructure through manipulation of information flow with the the long term goal of ostracism. Sometimes I do these in combination.
I'm a simple person, really.
I'm a simple person, really.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
And honest
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
So, the other day I was talking some theory to my friend, and I thought people would either appreciate it here, say it is obvious, or enjoy talking about it, or say I hate Falco. Not sure. . .
So, he is a relatively new Marth player, who I believe has a problem with using Fsmash too often. (Often trying to cover a specific edgeguard option with it, or guess when someone will jump out of shield, etc.) Often he would be playing against characters who can't immediately punish it. I think because of this he would see the immediate risk/reward is a good thing. If he got a Fsmash, he was in a good situation, and if he missed, he usually wouldn't be punished too hard. However, he does lose his current positional advantage (which he usually had which is why he was Fsmashing in the first place).
I then explained how I thought of it, and in that particular game he was playing against my Ganon. I think that in that MU since Marth has the advantage in speed, maneuverability and slight advantage in range, Marth is the character who naturally has the most control. However, this MU is balanced because once Marth loses control, Ganon gets more for his openings (which should come less often). This is where I explained the problem of him using too much Fsmash comes in. Whenever he throws out a Fsmash and it doesn't connect, he is forfeiting his control, and allowing the Ganon to be the aggressor. As Ganon gets more out of his openings for Marth, if Marth allows him to gain control too often, the Ganon starts to win the MU.
After I talked about that, I then thought of this in a way that ties more towards the tiers. I feel like in most MUs, there is one character who naturally controls better than the other, and they generally define the pace of the game, and in extreme cases, define how often their opponent can get in. I think characters like Falco or Shiek are the greatest at this control, and are the best at limiting their opponents at getting in. I also believe characters like Falcon and Ganon are the worst at this, and are very prone to being 'shut out', and denied openings. Because of this, I feel that as player skill approaches a theoretical maximum, those characters who naturally have the most control will start to be more viable, as they can manually deny the chances the opponent has for openings, as they make less mistakes. So characters like Falco/Shiek can particularly shine, where characters like Falcon/Ganon seem so much worse (compared to themselves at mid to low levels of play.)
Just what I was thinking. . . thoughts?
So, he is a relatively new Marth player, who I believe has a problem with using Fsmash too often. (Often trying to cover a specific edgeguard option with it, or guess when someone will jump out of shield, etc.) Often he would be playing against characters who can't immediately punish it. I think because of this he would see the immediate risk/reward is a good thing. If he got a Fsmash, he was in a good situation, and if he missed, he usually wouldn't be punished too hard. However, he does lose his current positional advantage (which he usually had which is why he was Fsmashing in the first place).
I then explained how I thought of it, and in that particular game he was playing against my Ganon. I think that in that MU since Marth has the advantage in speed, maneuverability and slight advantage in range, Marth is the character who naturally has the most control. However, this MU is balanced because once Marth loses control, Ganon gets more for his openings (which should come less often). This is where I explained the problem of him using too much Fsmash comes in. Whenever he throws out a Fsmash and it doesn't connect, he is forfeiting his control, and allowing the Ganon to be the aggressor. As Ganon gets more out of his openings for Marth, if Marth allows him to gain control too often, the Ganon starts to win the MU.
After I talked about that, I then thought of this in a way that ties more towards the tiers. I feel like in most MUs, there is one character who naturally controls better than the other, and they generally define the pace of the game, and in extreme cases, define how often their opponent can get in. I think characters like Falco or Shiek are the greatest at this control, and are the best at limiting their opponents at getting in. I also believe characters like Falcon and Ganon are the worst at this, and are very prone to being 'shut out', and denied openings. Because of this, I feel that as player skill approaches a theoretical maximum, those characters who naturally have the most control will start to be more viable, as they can manually deny the chances the opponent has for openings, as they make less mistakes. So characters like Falco/Shiek can particularly shine, where characters like Falcon/Ganon seem so much worse (compared to themselves at mid to low levels of play.)
Just what I was thinking. . . thoughts?
Kaeon
Smash Cadet
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Peach ICs isn't bad guys
Wobbles beat MacD in it
...see how that logic doesn't work? >_>
Wobbles beat MacD in it
...see how that logic doesn't work? >_>
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
If only everyone was joking when they said **** like that
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
By responding to it, particularly with emotion, you validate it. Ignore you fools.
john!
Smash Hero
looks like a successful troll to me
you guys need to stop overreacting to dumb stuff
you guys need to stop overreacting to dumb stuff
back to the tier list..... ummm so idk if its just me who thinks this but i personally think marth now has a +1 on falco and (i'm gonna get criticism) fox. that's just me but i seriously think it shown in tournament matches over and over. and plus marth is making a comeback into the god tier IMO
Bones0
Smash Legend
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Fourstar, learn from bad habits, PLEASE.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Everyone on this board wants their argument or existence validated by others in some way. However, the boards are ultimately a popularity contest so, like any sort of give-take interaction that occurs most social networks, this process is typically done formally and democratically. And with pictures.
So that's 1 vote against the validity of Jiv's existence. Current polls have him at invalid with 100% of the total votes (1). Polls close tomorrow.
edit: Poster above me is also being voted against. Because of his lack of an informed opinion on Marth's matchups versus the space animals. And because he mains low tier.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Damn, now I'm less likely to post here, with KK going around invalidating people's whole existences. Didn't realize we're playing for keeps now.
Uh. . . ignore my profile picture.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
These boards are hilarious, I love them lol.
You guys are weirdEveryone on this board wants their argument or existence validated by others in some way. However, the boards are ultimately a popularity contest so, like any sort of give-take interaction that occurs most social networks, this process is typically done formally and democratically. And with pictures.
So that's 1 vote against the validity of Jiv's existence. Current polls have him at invalid with 100% of the total votes (1). Polls close tomorrow.
edit: Poster above me is also being voted against. Because of his lack of an informed opinion on Marth's matchups versus the space animals. And because he mains low tier.
poster? do you mean poser?Everyone on this board wants their argument or existence validated by others in some way. However, the boards are ultimately a popularity contest so, like any sort of give-take interaction that occurs most social networks, this process is typically done formally and democratically. And with pictures.
So that's 1 vote against the validity of Jiv's existence. Current polls have him at invalid with 100% of the total votes (1). Polls close tomorrow.
edit: Poster above me is also being voted against. Because of his lack of an informed opinion on Marth's matchups versus the space animals. And because he mains low tier.
i can't tell if you are serious or not lol. idk what to believe anymore
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
poster as in one who posts.
I am a poster
You are a poster
Strong Bad is a poster
KirbyKaze is a poster
Ziodyne is a poster
Everyone who posts on these forums is a poster
A poster is one who posts.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I'm the poster child for posters.
"Users Viewing Thread:
God with a Wavebird"
LOL
"Users Viewing Thread:
God with a Wavebird"
LOL
ohhhh...... for some reason i was thinking the poster that you put on your wall
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
I'm going to pretend the last page of discourse doesn't exist.
Is there something to be said for Luigi's recent success? Along with a lot of recent tournament blips as individuals, Abate, Vudujin and Vist all made top fifteen at Zenith, the kind of representation you won't see unless you're reaching into the territory of ~ Ice Climbers and above. At the least, there's a very strong case for an above Mario placement.
Is there something to be said for Luigi's recent success? Along with a lot of recent tournament blips as individuals, Abate, Vudujin and Vist all made top fifteen at Zenith, the kind of representation you won't see unless you're reaching into the territory of ~ Ice Climbers and above. At the least, there's a very strong case for an above Mario placement.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Mario / Luigi are fairly interchangeable to me and most others I think. Actually, imho all the characters from Doc down to Luigi are of really similar strength. They aren't quite as good as the actual top tiers, but they are far from hopeless as well. Especially if their opponent doesn't really know how to exploit their shortcomings, they become really legit threats.
Well, and ordering them amongst themselves is like... mostly guesswork imho. Hell, we've seen like one Pikachu ever (I guess those are low in number, because with the techskill requirement needed for it, you might as well go Fox lol), and have really no idea whether there might not be something else that's worth exploring on that character. Luigi is a lot easier in terms of techskill AND somehow playing that guy is really fun (great wave dashes and nice combos on spacies? yay!) AND you're cool for picking a low tier. It's not too surprising to me that there's quite a few of those
DK's not among those characters though. DK sucks.
Well, and ordering them amongst themselves is like... mostly guesswork imho. Hell, we've seen like one Pikachu ever (I guess those are low in number, because with the techskill requirement needed for it, you might as well go Fox lol), and have really no idea whether there might not be something else that's worth exploring on that character. Luigi is a lot easier in terms of techskill AND somehow playing that guy is really fun (great wave dashes and nice combos on spacies? yay!) AND you're cool for picking a low tier. It's not too surprising to me that there's quite a few of those
DK's not among those characters though. DK sucks.
the only pika that has been placing high is Axe and other than that all other good pikas have stopped playing. really all the people who start to focus on playing pika as their main start to give up and go to Falco and Fox. and trust me i've seen happen a lot
Divinokage
Smash Legend
That isn't really exclusive to the character...
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Give me a good reason why should we trust you?