Official 'Item Standard Play' Thread (65k views. Not bad for a side project, huh? :P + Poll in OP)

[popo12]

Nice thread. I've been wondering what kind of items could be allowed in item tournaments, but I had no idea that people were seriously looking at it. I have to disagree with you on the Timer for the same reason Yuna did. It might just be me, but I think that it's more likely to slow down the person it's used against than the user, but I haven't sat down and tested it or anything. It's probably something you should look into.

With the Smoke Bomb, you overlooked one its most fun uses. If you throw it directly into the ground it will bounce in place and do small damage and knockback. Probably shouldn't effect it's legality at all, but you might want to take a look at it anyway.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

The reason I think the smart bomb deserves another chance is because it's not usually an automatic KO like the bob-omb or exploding capsule. Even if it does fall in front of you, if you rapidly tap up on the control stick and the C stick, you can usually get away with under 15 damage and jump to safetly before the "KO" part of the blast occurs. What's more, your opponent usually won't be able to punish you for this distraction because the blast radius is huge.

But if it's true about all items that disrupt animations being banned, then I suppose the smart bomb may as well go. But seriously, it is probably the least volatile of all the explosive items.

 

[Dark Hogosha]

Stuff

LOL GO BACK 2 SRK NOOB LAWL!!!11one

Just kiddin'. ^_^

If I can add something (well, it's mostly been added, but hey). I think a fourth thing to consider for ANY item's legitimacy in competitive play is whether or not a random spawn can affect a player without any decision on their part. We've already discussed the explosives spawning mid-attack, but things like Mushrooms/Metal Boxes/Lightning/Timer/etc. can also negatively affect a player simply by spawning at the wrong time and place. On the same note, it slightly detracts from play if you're not attacking as much because you're worried that an item will spawn on top of you and ruin your momentum by doing so.


I do agree that Smash Balls were not overall designed for 1v1 (or serious) play in the slightest.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread for continuing to discuss these impressions; I've taken not of the particularly good suggestions and I am trying to work everything in as needed. I updated the list to reflect a few of the better suggestions; just remember that this is a community project, and we probably won't have anything definitive until we get a lot of people hosting tournaments with the item lists we create here and in the Tournament Disc. 'ISP' thread.

 

[RushHour1049]

I think the bumper should be outright banned, in your post you seemed to focus on the edgeguarding purpose of it while neglecting the fact the the initial throw kills players at about 80%, an extremely high reward for a low risk.

 

[Tien2500]

Yes throwing the bumper is very powerful. Its ridiculous on small/ walk off stage. It can be bounced back at you but still a bit unbalanced.

 

[Percon]

I agree with the above two posters regarding the bumper.

The Spring's all well and good, though.

 

[Phantomwake]

The Hothead can be reflected meaning depending on what character is being played will it force retreating

 

[Twin Dreams]

The bombs can kill people in the middle of attacks.


starman -- "Good for forcing a break in battle or psychologically pressuring an opponent, but incredibly difficult to counter, this item will remain on the 'borderline' list pending further review."


There is no way to counter it. It gives the user all reward/no risk game play and gives the other no reward/all risk. Too powerful and can fall off screen onto people.

 

[Yuna]

Jack, I've already told you why Mr. Saturn needs to be banned. Mr. Saturn breaks the shield in one single hit now. There is also absolutely zero risk in using him.

Once you have a Mr. Saturn in your hand, you pretty much have an unblockable attack in your hands. The human mind cannot react fast enough for one to always dodge anything thrown at you from any distance. So if you don't just throw it mindlessly, you can set up for an unblockable attack or a shieldbreak.

You can also use Mr. Saturn for approaching. Throw it, jump after and approach. They have to dodge Mr. Saturn and they'll come out of invicibility once your attack comes out. It should be banned because it's broken.

 

[Twin Dreams]

What items should be allowed should be based on what will happen between equally skilled players.



People will combo into items.
People will camp for especially good items.
People will ignore weak items.


And, I will drive this point in all of my posts. People will live to hundreds of percents and die from ANY explosive spawning on them in the middle of an attack.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Guys, there is something that I don't think you're getting here, and it's the point of the entire project: items will add randomness into fights, and those who want to play with them on accept that.

You are purposefully taking the worst-case scenario and acting as though it is the rule and not the exception, and that is not how we'll be making our judgments here. Yes, bombs will spawn on people... but only two bombs are currently on, only one of which can explode by attacking it, and that bomb only kills at ~80%, which means that in order for a bomb spawn to kill someone, the one item out of the about 30 we currently have on will have to spawn directly on top of a player who has already taken 80% damage, even though the spawn rate is set to low. This, though it will happen it will be a rarity. We accept that rarities will happen, but we won't live by them as if they were the rule and not the exception.

And, Yuna, no Saturn won't break shields in one hit. I went into Training Mode personally; on a full shield, it takes two Saturn hits to break a shield, and Saturn will only one-hit a shield if it has already taken damage. Even if this weren't the case... why are you complaining about an approach option? Haven't you been complaining that part of the problem Brawl is having right now is a overly-campy nature brought on by a lack of approachability? If anything, Mr. Saturn gives players approach option... that's a good thing.

Look, at the end of the day, you guys are right: tournaments are what will decide change. That's why I have the borderline list, because there are points of contention that I feel people should decide on their own. From now on, if an item causes controversy like that, I will borderline it if I feel it is necessary because this is a community project; I don't want to make all of the decisions because it isn't my place. I'll let the community decide for themselves what they want to play, and that's going to be for tournament organizers, like yourselves, to do. You don't want Starmen (or any of the border items) on? Then don't host an item tournament with them on. Simple as that.

I do thank you both for continuing to give your opinions, and I want you to know that I have taken them into account in my impressions; I even went back and updated some that I had 'finished'. So, don't think I'm just disregarding what you're saying.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Point of standardization is for people to use the same rules.


If you're going to have a


Always List--

Never list --

Sometimes list --


Then what's the point of standardizing? You can just hold be the one guy holding item tournaments. The point of standardization is for people planning on holding item tournaments can have rules set up. If anything, it should either be banned or not banned. The things that should be banned that aren't will eventually get banned. However, I highly suggest not developing a "borderline". Gray areas are not good for rules.



edit: Also, I thought the point of developing an item list was to allow the people who have more fun with items a chance to play in competitive tournaments. Not just to add randomness for no reason. If you're trying to implicate an item list, it must be balanced. Explosives that explode on contact are definitely not.

 

[Jack Kieser]

You completely missed my point, Twin Dreams. This list won't be finalized for, at minimum, a year or so. This list is, again, a community project. I am not arrogant enough to think I know for certain what will make a perfectly balanced item list (which isn't the goal, mind you; we're trying to make as balanced a list we can while only banning the most serious offenders), and so the plan is to have tournaments held with approved items on always, and in 3/6/12 months, re-visit the list with our new experience and then finalize our standard with the knowledge that we have tournament results, and not just theory, to base our decisions on. So, a 'borderline' list is essential for this to work right.

And, one explosive that blows on contact is simply not broken enough to warrant banning. Again, we know we can't make a perfect list. The simple fact is that the strategic options brought about by the Gooey Bomb far outweigh the mathematical probability of one spawning on you and killing you. Simple as that.

 

[Twin Dreams]

You act as though there weren't item tournaments for melee.



I've personally seen multiple tournament matches that were DECIDED by explosives falling combatants. (This does not include ones that didn't kill them on their last stock)


The chances are very low, but it is possible that every item spawn is an explosive bomb in the middle of your attack. A star man can fall on your opponent from off screen every item spawn. Do we really need to wait for the low probabilities to happen when people have money on the line? Or can we save people the trouble. There's no need to explore things that have already been discovered in melee.

 

[Jack Kieser]

It's not about exploration anymore. It's about depth. If one random death in every 10 is caused by a bomb falling on an opponent, then there is a problem. If a random bomb spawn causes a death once in every 100, that's a problem. What we are talking about, mathematically, is rare. Very rare. We're talking about a single item (gooey bomb) in 30. On the low spawn rate. At 80% or more. The chances of it happening are there, sure, but not enough to force us to ban it. Simple as that.

 

[Yuna]

You completely missed my point, Twin Dreams. This list won't be finalized for, at minimum, a year or so. This list is, again, a community project. I am not arrogant enough to think I know for certain what will make a perfectly balanced item list (which isn't the goal, mind you; we're trying to make as balanced a list we can while only banning the most serious offenders), and so the plan is to have tournaments held with approved items on always, and in 3/6/12 months, re-visit the list with our new experience and then finalize our standard with the knowledge that we have tournament results, and not just theory, to base our decisions on. So, a 'borderline' list is essential for this to work right.

Only the most serious? And not all broken ones?

And, one explosive that blows on contact is simply not broken enough to warrant banning. Again, we know we can't make a perfect list. The simple fact is that the strategic options brought about by the Gooey Bomb far outweigh the mathematical probability of one spawning on you and killing you. Simple as that.

No it doesn't, not in Competitive play. If you're seriously trying to make an items list for serious Competitive play with items on, you cannot allow it.

Guys, there is something that I don't think you're getting here, and it's the point of the entire project: items will add randomness into fights, and those who want to play with them on accept that.

You are purposefully taking the worst-case scenario and acting as though it is the rule and not the exception, and that is not how we'll be making our judgments here. Yes, bombs will spawn on people... but only two bombs are currently on, only one of which can explode by attacking it, and that bomb only kills at ~80%, which means that in order for a bomb spawn to kill someone, the one item out of the about 30 we currently have on will have to spawn directly on top of a player who has already taken 80% damage, even though the spawn rate is set to low. This, though it will happen it will be a rarity. We accept that rarities will happen, but we won't live by them as if they were the rule and not the exception.

Getting KO.ed at 80% because of something impossible to predict and you call that not-broken? What about the fact that someone just got a weapon which will KO you at 80%. Most of the time, Meta-Knight needs a good 150% to KO you and he's a beastly comboer and chipper. Suddenly he gets a Bob-omb and KOs you at 80%. Fair and balanced? Hardly.

Items which KO you at low %s must go if you want balance.

And anything that can happen will happen. Not every single game, set or possibly every single tournament. But it could happen at any time in a very important match (finals for example).

And, Yuna, no Saturn won't break shields in one hit. I went into Training Mode personally; on a full shield, it takes two Saturn hits to break a shield, and Saturn will only one-hit a shield if it has already taken damage. Even if this weren't the case... why are you complaining about an approach option? Haven't you been complaining that part of the problem Brawl is having right now is a overly-campy nature brought on by a lack of approachability? If anything, Mr. Saturn gives players approach option... that's a good thing.

Depends on how good your shield is. Some people still have bad shields. Also, a full shield, you say? As in if I powershield it? Because the shield will have shrunk a bit if I shield even before it hits.

Also, have you ever heard of re-grabbing Mr. Saturn (while aerialing or just regrabbing it) and shieldbreaking them while they're horrendously stunned from it?

Also, I want more options. Not more brokenness.

 

[Cooper736]

I'd like to say that, while I appreciate your list Jack, some of your justifications for the more "controversial" items (bombs) is lacking. So state that item play adds randomness to matches, which it indeed does. But "randomness" and "stupid" share a fine border. Random is a character like Ganondorf or Bowser picking up a Beam Sword or a Ray Gun. Stupid is a bomb falling on you. The fact of the matter is that a comprehensive tier list (or standards list) needs to take into account things that can happen, regardless of how likely they are to happen. In Brawl, the Ice Climbers' position on a tier will be affected by their ability to de-sync and chaingrab from 0 to death. Is that to say that every Ice Climbers player in the world is able to do that? No. But the fact that some can makes them a threat. Now look at bomb spawning in that sense. The fact that a bomb can spawn above you in the middle of an attack means that it must be taken into effect.

With the increased survivability and slower gameplay of Brawl, surviving at high percentages is much more possible than it was in Melee. Any item that can severely change that must be banned.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I think part of the differences here include what lens people are looking through when they read this list. If you try to filter this list through a lens made for competitive Melee play, it won't work. There are concessions that have to be made to play with items on, concessions that will border on what you call 'stupid'. Of course, 'stupid' means different things to different people nowadays; a lot of the people I talk to on a regular basis about this concede the same points that I have expressed thus far: that some random events don't happen enough to outweigh strategy. Again, the Gooey Bomb. You can do a LOT with that item. The possibilities for pressure and general strategy FAR outweigh the single random event of a bomb spawning on you during an attack. So, people who want to play with items concede this fact and agree that, if the bomb does spawn on you and if it does kill you, you were unlucky, too bad. If you are the kind of person who that kind of thinking bristles your spines, then you are just as biased as we are, and are looking at what the point of this project is incorrectly.

If we (as a group in the ISP thread) hadn't conceded like this already, I wouldn't have even considered the Gooey Bomb for use. But we have, and that was a group choice. People are arguing more about Smash Balls and the Dragoon than the Gooey Bomb over there; a single, random, incredibly low-probability event like a Gooey spawning on your attack is not high on their priority list, which is why I'm not letting be a high priority. So, no, the Gooey Bomb, one of 30 items on Low, is simply not going to spawn enough, mathematically speaking, for it to be as big of a problem as you guys are overstating it to be.

 

[Pikaville]

I kinda like the idea of items tournies as there is indeed a higher skill level needed to win when using them.

 

[Twin Dreams]

I concede to the fact that the spawning of items is random. So, in trying to create a balanced item list, we MUST take that into account.


Me -- We need a balanced item list that, even if your opponent gets first chance of every item, it won't cause a huge shift in the battle.



You -- Things are random. We accept that so it doesn't matter what happens when they spawn or the effects of low-probability outcomes.




Awesome.


It doesn't matter who thinks what when dealing with facts. It is a FACT that gooey bombs will fall in the middle of your attacks eventually. It is a FACT that starmen will fall of screen onto opponents. It will happen sooner or later.


Do I care if my opponent gets beam swords dropped on him for the entirety of the match? No. Super Scopes? No.


If you are trying to make a list for Competitive items then you must take into account things that CAN happen no matter how likely.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Stop taking me out of context, please. It's not as easy as 'Me -- We need a balanced item list that, even if your opponent gets first chance of every item, it won't cause a huge shift in the battle. You -- Things are random. We accept that so it doesn't matter what happens when they spawn or the effects of low-probability outcomes.' That's not what I said. I said that, at certain time, the strategic value of an item outweighs a low (or extremely low) probability event. If the Gooey Bomb had no redeeming values, then this wouldn't be an issue.

It does.

I have been playing with items on in various venues, against various people, and in various environments (controlled or not controlled)... I know what I'm talking about. There are very specific and very profound positive effects of certain items that VASTLY outweigh a singular weakness. I care about what happens when items spawn, or else I wouldn't be working so hard. The FACT remains that a single, very low-probability outcome is NOT ENOUGH to outweigh multiple and serious strategic uses.

 

[Twin Dreams]

So, how many people are going to say...


"Yes, we could've banned Gooey Bombs or Starmen. But their strategic value was worth the finals match I just lost where Gooey Bombs only spawned in the middle of my attacks and Star Men kept spawning on my opponent. The game picking 0 or 1 has determined that I lost hundreds of dollars, but items being random, I accept this outcome. Guess I was just unlucky!"

 

[Jack Kieser]

So, how many people are going to say...


"Yes, we could've banned Gooey Bombs or Starmen. But their strategic value was worth the finals match I just lost where Gooey Bombs only spawned in the middle of my attacks and Star Men kept spawning on my opponent. The game picking 0 or 1 has determined that I lost hundreds of dollars, but items being random, I accept this outcome. Guess I was just unlucky!"

You don't HONESTLY BELIEVE that a match like that would happen, do you?! You can't tell me that you aren't over-exaggerating. Unless only one of each spawned, you can't say something like that and expect it to be true. Stop making this seem like such a big deal, because you aren't doing the arguments justice.

If a match EVER happened where only Gooey Bombs and Starmen spawned, and if in that match, one player only had Gooey Bombs spawn in front of him while attacking but out of blast range of the opponent AS WELL AS have the opponent receive only Starmen, also by spawning DIRECTLY ON TOP of him... yes, that would be a bit wrong. But think about what you are saying... that is a one in a couple thousand chance, at least. It is not logically feasible to take that into account with the weight that you are giving it.

Step back for a second and stop thinking like a Melee player. This is a different situation, and you are out of your element. Be rational, and you'll see that what you just said makes no sense.

 

[behemoth]

You don't HONESTLY BELIEVE that a match like that would happen, do you?! You can't tell me that you aren't over-exaggerating. Unless only one of each spawned, you can't say something like that and expect it to be true. Stop making this seem like such a big deal, because you aren't doing the arguments justice.

If a match EVER happened where only Gooey Bombs and Starmen spawned, and if in that match, one player only had Gooey Bombs spawn in front of him while attacking but out of blast range of the opponent AS WELL AS have the opponent receive only Starmen, also by spawning DIRECTLY ON TOP of him... yes, that would be a bit wrong. But think about what you are saying... that is a one in a couple thousand chance, at least. It is not logically feasible to take that into account with the weight that you are giving it.

Step back for a second and stop thinking like a Melee player. This is a different situation, and you are out of your element. Be rational, and you'll see that what you just said makes no sense.

I've stayed out of this, because I'm really just curious as to how this is going to fall out. However, this post kind of bothers me.

If this becomes a tourney standard, and next year 15,000 matches are played like this, out of which 500 are finals matches, then there is a definite chance that, based on the probability you specified above, that situation could happen during a match that determines the cash prize.

I am not looking through this from the Melee competitive lens, as you put it, though I did play in tournies. All I'm looking at is how someone would react to getting crapped on by randomness, at a cost of hundreds of dollars.

You may be told all day that they accept randomness, but in a large tournament, there will be blood.

..cute reference, eh?

 

[Twin Dreams]

You don't HONESTLY BELIEVE that a match like that would happen, do you?! You can't tell me that you aren't over-exaggerating. Unless only one of each spawned, you can't say something like that and expect it to be true. Stop making this seem like such a big deal, because you aren't doing the arguments justice.

If a match EVER happened where only Gooey Bombs and Starmen spawned, and if in that match, one player only had Gooey Bombs spawn in front of him while attacking but out of blast range of the opponent AS WELL AS have the opponent receive only Starmen, also by spawning DIRECTLY ON TOP of him... yes, that would be a bit wrong. But think about what you are saying... that is a one in a couple thousand chance, at least. It is not logically feasible to take that into account with the weight that you are giving it.

Step back for a second and stop thinking like a Melee player. This is a different situation, and you are out of your element. Be rational, and you'll see that what you just said makes no sense.

What does this have to do with melee? What does the Wii generating boolean variables have to do with my experience with brawl or melee?

at a 64-man tournament. there are...

I counted 126 sets in a tournament. I maybe off by a couple. However, that means that there are 378 matches in a tournament. Not including the extras for finals or even to qualify to get into a tournament. So, three 64 man tournaments and you have thousands of trials. So, you're low probability outcomes are eventually going to happen!


I have a replay of my brother and I playing. All items on high. Even though ALL items were on, the only thing we got were pokeballs and bumpers!!! (There was a beamsword there too)
This replay shows...

1. The unlikely fact that sometimes only a few items keep spawning.
2. The unfair spawning of a star man
3. The unfair spawning of a smash ball. (The second one)


Also, it has a funny part with two bumpers causing an infinite. Lol.


I, sometimes, enjoy playing with items. It's a nice break from the inch-by-inch victories you have to win without them. I can send you this replay if you like to show you why Starman should be banned. But it's more about the fact that unlikely things STILL happen. Like 90% of the items being pokeballs and bumpers!

 

[Jack Kieser]

behemoth, EVERY match determines the cash prize, not just the Finals (although the Finals are more dramatic). Yes, a bomb spawn may very well decide a match, but we have accepted that risk, and those who will play under our rules (assuming the Gooey stays legal a year from now) will be well informed of said risk themselves and forfeit the right to complain when it happens. Why is it so hard for people to realize that this is voluntary? Again, I'm not forcing anyone to do anything, nor is anyone else supporting this project. This is the consensus. People have accepted the risks, and if a player isn't willing to do the same, then this project isn't for you.

An item spawn WILL affect the outcome of many, many matches; that's their job, and it won't only be bombs. It will be mundane items like Lip's Stick and Banana Peels. If that isn't acceptable... well, I don't know what to say other than you won't like playing with items on.

 

[UltraDavidSRK]

Twin, it's pretty obvious that you don't have very much experience with items-on play. Before coming to conclusions or even trying to advance serious arguments, you need to know what you're talking about. Try playing with items on and try figuring out ways to approach and beat the various items. This thread on SRK is all about the characteristics of items and how to deal with them, so if you have any questions on whether certain items are overpowered or something,you can check out whether we've found any solutions there. Anyway.

1. Randomness in items can be controlled for to a very large extent. One of the ways to do this is to take out the most random items, like containers. Another way is to take out items that have large immediate effects, like bob-ombs and hearts, that can just spawn and immediately alter the match without being fought over or used purposely. But the biggest way to control for randomness is just to control as much space on the stage as possible as often as you can so that the chance that you'll have access to the items that spawn is way higher. If a good item spawns near your opponent because he's controlling more space than you are, then I don't have much sympathy for you. If he controls a fraction of the total stage but still grabs an item, oh well. This goes to the second point.

2. Jack is right, the strategic value of some items outweighs their randomness anyway. There's a lot of very strategic play associated with lots of items, most obviously with the very strong ones like dragoon and smash ball but also with things like weapons, bumper, metal box, and so on. Will something good randomly spawn in your opponent's part of the stage sometimes? Sure, but that's pretty unlikely if you're playing well, and in any case that's an inevitable (if rare) consequence of playing with the extra strategy involved in controlling neutral third objects. It's like, if you sign up for a game of poker and you get a bad beat, who are you gonna complain to? That's an inevitable part of the game, and you knew that when you signed up for it, but you still signed up because the strategy and competition were so interesting anyway.

3. Items aren't 100% random, or at least their spawn times aren't. I forget the exact number off the top of my head, but when items are on low they always spawn in 20-25 second intervals. Learn that and know that even if you're not doing well generally, you absolutely have to be in control of most of the stage when that spawn time rolls around.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Thanks for posting that link; I'll compile all of the damage data I have so far and post it there when I get a chance.

 

[Twin Dreams]

If a match EVER happened where only Gooey Bombs and Starmen spawned, and if in that match, one player only had Gooey Bombs spawn in front of him while attacking but out of blast range of the opponent AS WELL AS have the opponent receive only Starmen, also by spawning DIRECTLY ON TOP of him... yes, that would be a bit wrong. But think about what you are saying... that is a one in a couple thousand chance, at least. It is not logically feasible to take that into account with the weight that you are giving it.

You agreed with me. It would be wrong. It would be extremely unfair and unbalancing. Which is the exact OPPOSITE of what we want. You say we have a voluntary choice, however, we actually don't. No matter how many facts we give you, your opinion of its strategic use is still somehow saving the gooey bomb. It's strategic uses don't mean anything when they are spawning in your attacks!

 

[Jack Kieser]

I agreed that your specific, over-exaggerated example would be A BIT wrong. But, AGAIN, that isn't enough, one specific and overly-improbable event isn't enough to cause us to completely disregard any positive aspects of any item. There are positives and negatives to EVERY ITEM. I said as much in each of my impressions. What we need to ask ourselves (the people that actually want to play in item tournaments) is whether the pros outweigh the cons, because if that is indeed the case, then we have no reason to complain.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Twin, it's pretty obvious that you don't have very much experience with items-on play. Before coming to conclusions or even trying to advance serious arguments, you need to know what you're talking about. Try playing with items on and try figuring out ways to approach and beat the various items. This thread on SRK is all about the characteristics of items and how to deal with them, so if you have any questions on whether certain items are overpowered or something,you can check out whether we've found any solutions there. Anyway.

I played many many hours with and without items. I've entered tournaments and watched tournaments with items on. I know how to avoid items in both Brawl and Melee. For instance, the gooey bomb! Even if it gets stuck to me, can I really pressure you with it? Cause when the timer is up, whoever has it is just going to spot dodge.

1. Randomness in items can be controlled for to a very large extent. One of the ways to do this is to take out the most random items, like containers. Another way is to take out items that have large immediate effects, like bob-ombs and hearts, that can just spawn and immediately alter the match without being fought over or used purposely. But the biggest way to control for randomness is just to control as much space on the stage as possible as often as you can so that the chance that you'll have access to the items that spawn is way higher. If a good item spawns near your opponent because he's controlling more space than you are, then I don't have much sympathy for you. If he controls a fraction of the total stage but still grabs an item, oh well. This goes to the second point.

According to this, gooey bomb should not be allowed. The randomness I'm talking about is not controllable. The placement of spawning. You can change the likely hood of GETTING an item. But not the likely hood of something spawning on you.

2. Jack is right, the strategic value of some items outweighs their randomness anyway. There's a lot of very strategic play associated with lots of items, most obviously with the very strong ones like dragoon and smash ball but also with things like weapons, bumper, metal box, and so on. Will something good randomly spawn in your opponent's part of the stage sometimes? Sure, but that's pretty unlikely if you're playing well, and in any case that's an inevitable (if rare) consequence of playing with the extra strategy involved in controlling neutral third objects. It's like, if you sign up for a game of poker and you get a bad beat, who are you gonna complain to? That's an inevitable part of the game, and you knew that when you signed up for it, but you still signed up because the strategy and competition were so interesting anyway.

There's strategic value in the opponent lets bombs spawn in my attacks?

3. Items aren't 100% random, or at least their spawn times aren't. I forget the exact number off the top of my head, but when items are on low they always spawn in 20-25 second intervals. Learn that and know that even if you're not doing well generally, you absolutely have to be in control of most of the stage when that spawn time rolls around.

So, you're saying that I should live in fear and NOT Attack for the intervals when items can spawn?

 

[behemoth]

Jack,

I kinda feel ostracized for simply rebutting your argument. That's a little unfair, isn't it?

I do play with items on, a lot of the time, especially with friends who aren't as serious about Brawl as I am.

I believe my point still stands, simply because I know people. If you really think that there will be no complaints during a finals match if a person of lesser skill wins because of a beam sword dropped their way fortuitously (as an example), I think you're wrong.

I do see the merit in this discussion, and will gladly start hosting some local tournaments with rules akin to these and bring back my results.

All I was pointing out was that, given a large enough number of matches, the improbable WILL happen.

 

[Twin Dreams]

I agreed that your specific, over-exaggerated example would be A BIT wrong. But, AGAIN, that isn't enough, one specific and overly-improbable event isn't enough to cause us to completely disregard any positive aspects of any item. There are positives and negatives to EVERY ITEM. I said as much in each of my impressions. What we need to ask ourselves (the people that actually want to play in item tournaments) is whether the pros outweigh the cons, because if that is indeed the case, then we have no reason to complain.

However, after a couple tournaments, you will have THOUSANDS of matches. Things that are improbable will happen. What is negative about starman? What is positive about explosives spawning on you? If I didn't want there to be item tournaments, I wouldn't be sitting here arguing over the item list. I wouldn't care!

You can't have things that affect game play on spawn.

 

[cupoflifenoodles]

I can't say I agree with keeping the Pitfall in the tournament legal items. Overall I just feel like the item is a bad idea.

There are two main uses for the Pitfall. The first being laying it on the ground or hitting someone with it and eventually trapping someone. Not that there is anything wrong with gaining a little time on your enemy infact I'm all for the Banana Peel being in tournaments. However my problem with the item lies in how long it freezes an opponent.

The second use is of course the Meteor Smash that can be preformed when a character is over a ledge for an almost always instand KO. Yes it is true that it is easy to dodge, but what if you are unable to dodge? Example you are playing Ness or Lucas and you get knocked off the edge and are trying to recover. A Pitfall suddenly appears near your opponent and you are a little far out so you need to use PK Thunder to recover. This gives your enemy a chance to throw the Pitfall and you are as helpless as a kitten.

Edit: sorry this isn't ontopic with the Gooey Bomb and Starman discussion

 

[Twin Dreams]

Any item discussion is on topic.


If the pitfall is a meteor-smash, you can cancel it's affect with your PK thunder after getting it by it. It's actually worse on the ground, since you can get a decently charged F-smash with it.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I'm sorry, behemoth. That certainly wasn't my intention (to make you feel like that), and I really do apologize for it. All I was trying to do was address your specific concern, and if I said something in particular that offended you or made you feel ostracized, please let me know. That being said, sure, people will be disappointed when they lose to an item spawn (regardless of whether it was something like Twin and I are arguing about, or whether a player lost to skillful usage of an item). I do all the time. I lost a match to a Beam Sword spawn many a time playing competitively up in WA at DigiPen (yes, they had competitive furor in matches with items), and at first I felt a little 'peeved' at the concept... until I realized that I had agreed to the terms before the match and knew that losing to an item was a possibility. I learned that my disappointment was hypocritical of me, and I learned to stop taking it so personally when I lost to an expertly timed Star Rod shot or a well-placed Motion Sensor Bomb. Am I saying that everyone will feel like that? No, but over time I would expect people who consistently play competitive item matches will figure it out for themselves.

And, Twin... I don't see how you can say anyone absolutely can't do anything. That's great to hear that you want there to be item tournaments, but, as I said before, one person can't make the call here: it WILL end up a community decision between all of the people who play competitive item tournaments, and, if they (as it seems they have already, if my talks with people have any indication of) decide that a random, low-chance event like that is permissible, then that's their right to do so, and I think it's wrong that you're saying that it HAS to be any one way. I respect you're input and I'm glad you've been continuing this discussion, but I can't agree with that one particular caveat in your thinking. Ultimately, it's what the PEOPLE want that matters.

EDIT@ cup: Hey, don't worry about it; Twin is totally right. Any item discussion is welcome here, even if it's bringing up something we're not currently discussing. At any rate, we probably should switch gears for a little while; we've started arguing about personal beliefs, Twin and I, and it'd probably be best if we switched topic for a while so we don't personalize it too much. ^_^ ;

 

[cupoflifenoodles]

If the pitfall is a meteor-smash, you can cancel it's affect with your PK thunder after getting it by it. It's actually worse on the ground, since you can get a decently charged F-smash with it.

That's what I was getting at with the comment about the freeze time. It can give the other character enough time to turn the tides with one single move.

As for the Lucas Ness thing, that was just an example, there are some Up specials that you can't cancel the Pitfall with.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I think that the Pitfall is, as you guys have said, more dangerous an item on the ground, but the potential for edgeguards with it is really cool. We already have a lack of reliable edgeguarding strategies, but the Meteor Smash property can really assist in gimp kills, which we are sorely lacking as of right now.

 

[Deadlypudding]

DISCLAIMER: The following post is not directed at any specific person and is a general thought on competitive smashers and item smashers discussing item legality. I am in no way taking sides, but my general style of play does not include items being on. Any personal attacks will not be responded to. Neither will any replies that claim faulty logic. This is mostly an opinionated post and should be seen as one. The few points I make that do indicate some form of impartial logic are generally accepted points in the first place (i.e. if you whine about an activity, but don't include yourself in it, why should you be listened to?).


Below are some terms I use:

Competitive smasher - loosely used to describe a player with skills in mind as the determining factor of a match.

Item Smasher - loosely used term to describe a player that uses skills and the random spawning of items to play at their own competitive level.

Elite - A NON-SLANG term to describe the key players that decide the rules for each standard of play. For competitive smashers its top-tournament placers and tournament directors, mostly all have SBR access. For Item Smashers it would be Jack and his immediate group of players trying to start their own item standard tournaments.


WALL OF TEXT BEGINS HERE:
I think some of the posters in this thread are having trouble distinguishing between real competitve Smash and item Smash. Jack obviously has a dream in mind of doing his own tournaments his own way and has his own following. I don't think its the place of a competitve Smasher to really argue against the more lower random incidents that Jack's group chose to allow in their tournaments that I or many other competitve Smashers would never go to if money was on the line. I'm obviously not going to tell Jack that he should ban an item for a slight random chance that it could unfairly decide a finals match, since he and his group wouldn't be playing with items in the first place if they cared that much about it. After all, even having the worst item on low can create an unfair non-competitive situation.

That is not to say that other competitive Smashers are unwelcome in a discussion about items. In fact competitive Smashers bring insight to the table that the item Smashers may not stop to think about. However, the point lies in the fact that Jack and his group totally accept the possibility of a finals match going to the wrong player. I doubt they'd even have much money on the line anyway. And they could always redo any match that the outcome was decided in an unfair manner.

Though thats the biggest crutch of having the randomness in play after all isn't it? It requires more attention and cooperation from others (possibly a referee type person) to decide if the match met its end appropriately. Worst case scenario is that said loser of random outcome has a short fuse, and he/she just breaks. Then tournaments might need cheap security as well as game refs.

All in all, Jack isn't forcing his views on the competitive community (yes I am aware that at one time he did somewhat, but he isn't now). So it would not be fair to try and force competitive views on his league and not participate. Obviously, this whole post hinges on the possibility that any competitive player voicing his/her views here has no intention of perticipating in item tournaments (I'm aware that Yuna has entertained the possibility so this is not directed towards him or really anyone for that matter, its merely a general statement). However, competitive smashers wanting to influence item smashers are at the same disadvantage that item smashers are at influencing competitive smashers. They both have their own elite, and if you aren't a mover or a shaker in their scene then your say won't count as much. I don't think Jack has to do what any competitive player tells him to do at his tournaments. Though I know he greatly values their opinions, the ultimate decision lies with him and his group.

Let me recap my points:
1. Competitive smash elite should converse openly with Item smash elite, but not expect their status to influence a completely different smash group. The opposite also should hold true.

2. Jack is doing his own item tournaments and if they get big and popular thats cool. However, they are not the standard as of now and probably never will be. As such you are not being told you must play this way. Also at their tournaments, they may not even have much money on the line due to the sheer randomness that items present anyway. If you only want to whine about this item and that, but never make a plan to attend any item tournaments then why should your opinion matter?

3. From an actual competitive standpoint, even the weakest item is broken. This mentality shouldn't be present in this discussion, and though it hasn't quite surfaced, there seems to be a few posts that borrow this philosophy of gameplay.

4. Jack is trying to do something in the community for everyone who likes items. He has a decent following and is at least trying to go about it in the most sensible way possible. You can't just ignore the thought he's trying to put in it and write him off. If he says his group had already considered something but wanted to keep it, then thats their say. A lot of non-elite players didn't like wavedashing being legal in Melee tournaments, but thats the way it was anyway.

I hope this didn't stray too far from the topic at hand, but I felt it needed to be said so everyone could keep their intelligent conversation helmets at full power rather than half or none at all.