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Q&A Official FAQ and QnA Thread - Ask Your Questions Here!

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
New to Melee, what characters should I play to improve and practice fundamentals?
It depends on what fundamentals you want to practice. If you want to improve your patience, a slow character will be more conducive to that. The same goes for other traits; characters that force you to develop a certain area of your game are going to help you improve in that area.

However, that doesn't necessarily mean you should just play everyone. One of the things about Melee is simply doing what you want and having the mental speed to keep up with the action can be hard. The more familiar you are with a specific character, the more polished your tech and decision making will be. Obviously fundamentals come into play at every level, but in Melee they vary a lot by skill level. Some things that are absolute noob slayers, such as spamming Marth fsmash, can be the absolute worst decision at high level play. The result is that as you learn about the game and expand your understanding of the fundamentals, they will change over time.

I guess the best way to explain it is in terms of width/breadth and depth. With all the vastly different characters, Melee fundamentals have a ton of breadth. With all the intricate movement options, punishes, defensive options, etc., Melee has amazing depth overall. If you watch top 10 players use characters they rarely/never practice, it's distinctly different from someone who ritually practices only that character but may not be as good. There are character-specific fundamentals and general, overlying fundamentals that apply to the entire cast. You can't effectively practice the former without the latter, and vice versa, which is why most people would suggest picking one character whose playstyle you enjoy and alternating between improvement for both of those aspects of the game.

To give at least a slightly direct answer to your question, I think it's best to play characters that maintain most of the usual options seen from top tiers. Some characters don't just struggle, but are flat out incapable of moving around, getting out of shield, threatening space, recovering, and punishing. The cast is a spectrum so there's no clear cutoff where characters become useless. Every character can do everything to some extent, but if you think you're going to develop footsies fundamentals with Bowser, you're sadly mistaken. Imo, stay away from Roy, Mewtwo, Pichu, Ness, Zelda, Bowser, and Kirby.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Anyone know what the deal was with this ground bounce animation? It definitely looked as weird irl as it did on stream so it's not just frame skips.


Bonus point to anyone who can also explain why my hard shield was so large here. Perhaps it was just a graphical effect of the light shield appearing like a hard shield, can't say for sure. I think the setup was 1.0 if that matters.

 

KingDozie

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
456
I have this problem of when i shield the oppoenent roll behind and i try to punish it but im to late and i end up getting punished. How do you punish it?
 

GenNyan

Smash Ace
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
574
Location
Florida
I have this problem of when i shield the oppoenent roll behind and i try to punish it but im to late and i end up getting punished. How do you punish it?
It kinda depends on what character you're using, but if they have a good down smash just use that. Other than that you just need better reaction times.
 

ZafKiel

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Messages
164
This is probably a stupid question but when should wavedashing actually be incorporated in battle? Should grounded movement be a mixture of dash dancing and wavedashing? I'm still new to the game and I feel like I can't move fast enough.
 

GenNyan

Smash Ace
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
574
Location
Florida
This is probably a stupid question but when should wavedashing actually be incorporated in battle? Should grounded movement be a mixture of dash dancing and wavedashing? I'm still new to the game and I feel like I can't move fast enough.
That is actually a very important question because just randomly wavedashing is useless. You can use wavedahses to mix up your movement and bait out things from the opponent, but the key thing is to have a reason for each wavedash. Doing it without thinking won't really help you, but by paying attention you'll start to get a feel for when it should be used. Also wavedash out of shield to punish attacks is killer.
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,348
I have zero clue about the shield thing but I know for sure that this has happened in another game. Funnily enough, it was also on Pokemon Stadium. It was a Sheik, though, and I'm not sure if the game was 1.0 or not. I can't remember if anybody found out why the shield behaved that way, I don't think they did. (if memory serves right, it was brought up around the time Z-PS was discovered)
Yeah, looks like the same phenomenon as in the case schmooblidon brought up. And yes, I did come up with z-ps directly as a result of trying to replicate the big full shield. Time for a new tech? :troll: Anyway the cause is still unknown to me.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Yeah, looks like the same phenomenon as in the case schmooblidon brought up. And yes, I did come up with z-ps directly as a result of trying to replicate the big full shield. Time for a new tech? :troll: Anyway the cause is still unknown to me.
Were you testing stuff on 1.0? Plup might have used his own 1.0 disc for the diminished SDI on Samus's up-B. It has to have something to do with landing lag and buffering shield, and I missed the L-cancel so the shield input doesn't have to happen at least until after landing lag starts.
 

Raygagz

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 12, 2015
Messages
2
Hello! I'm curious to know why the pro players just DI when getting combo. I was trying to chaingrab as sheik and the CPU always nair out of it, what should I do? (PS. same to upthrow rest :v)
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
What is meant by committal and non-committal options? What makes committal options so bad?
Committing means performing an action that limits your options. The most common example of commitment in Melee is jumping, especially double jumping. If you're playing a Falco ditto and one Falco does a full hop while the other does an immediate double jump so that he goes the same height, he has committed more for no real reason. The first Falco still has the option to double jump while the latter does not. In a game, this commitment might manifest in the stereotypical spacie approach. If a Falco short hops towards you, he has committed to moving forward because you aren't able to easily switch the direction of your momentum while airborne. Puff's superior aerial mobility allows her to jump while still being largely non-committal.

Outside of movement options, startup and lag/cooldown on attacks generally contributes to how much commitment a move needs. If a Falco is coming down on top of a Marth, Marth can either utilt (low commitment) or fsmash (high commitment). It's important to understand there is nothing inherently bad about committing or not committing. If you never commit to anything, you will usually become too predictable because they will realize you are just playing super safe and not threatening. In the example above, the Marth fsmashing a Falco might require more commitment to the option, but it also yields a higher payoff if it works (he gets tipped off stage instead of simply leading into a combo). As a player, you will have to learn the risk and reward of different levels of commitment and try to choose the best one for that situation.

Hello! I'm curious to know why the pro players just DI when getting combo. I was trying to chaingrab as sheik and the CPU always nair out of it, what should I do? (PS. same to upthrow rest :v)
If the CPU is able to nair you, you are either performing the chain grab improperly (e.g. grabbing too slowly), or it isn't possible on that particular character/at that percent/on that DI. Using uthrow rest as an example, if done on Fox and Falco with no DI, you are able to rest them before they are out of hitstun, meaning they can't jump or attack yet. You can test what combos using the consecutive hits counter in Training Mode, but I'd recommend watching these videos get a good foundation of understanding on how Melee's mechanics work (don't worry if you don't understand everything right away, some stuff can get complicated):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c93Fwem-ngw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RP3sbS7Dm0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJG-tvT86WU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOlQv-9S1zE
 

Dolla Pills

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
894
Location
Connecticut
So in the 4.0 version of the 20xx hack pack you can use a color overlay to show whether you have the perfect timing/angle for wavedashing or not. My timing is fine, but to my surprise I don't get a perfect angle even if I'm trying. I'm very close of course, but are there any tips on actually figuring out the exact angle? I'm guessing with the exception of making notches on my controller there aren't really any good ways to figure it out though.

And I realize I'm only talking about like a degree difference so it's not probably not important, but I'd still like to correct it anyway if possible.
 

Raygagz

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 12, 2015
Messages
2
Committing means performing an action that limits your options. The most common example of commitment in Melee is jumping, especially double jumping. If you're playing a Falco ditto and one Falco does a full hop while the other does an immediate double jump so that he goes the same height, he has committed more for no real reason. The first Falco still has the option to double jump while the latter does not. In a game, this commitment might manifest in the stereotypical spacie approach. If a Falco short hops towards you, he has committed to moving forward because you aren't able to easily switch the direction of your momentum while airborne. Puff's superior aerial mobility allows her to jump while still being largely non-committal.

Outside of movement options, startup and lag/cooldown on attacks generally contributes to how much commitment a move needs. If a Falco is coming down on top of a Marth, Marth can either utilt (low commitment) or fsmash (high commitment). It's important to understand there is nothing inherently bad about committing or not committing. If you never commit to anything, you will usually become too predictable because they will realize you are just playing super safe and not threatening. In the example above, the Marth fsmashing a Falco might require more commitment to the option, but it also yields a higher payoff if it works (he gets tipped off stage instead of simply leading into a combo). As a player, you will have to learn the risk and reward of different levels of commitment and try to choose the best one for that situation.


If the CPU is able to nair you, you are either performing the chain grab improperly (e.g. grabbing too slowly), or it isn't possible on that particular character/at that percent/on that DI. Using uthrow rest as an example, if done on Fox and Falco with no DI, you are able to rest them before they are out of hitstun, meaning they can't jump or attack yet. You can test what combos using the consecutive hits counter in Training Mode, but I'd recommend watching these videos get a good foundation of understanding on how Melee's mechanics work (don't worry if you don't understand everything right away, some stuff can get complicated):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c93Fwem-ngw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RP3sbS7Dm0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJG-tvT86WU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOlQv-9S1zE
Oh, thanks a lot! So... Better practice ^^
In the end this is like a "GO" game, a predict and a risk/reward game
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
So in the 4.0 version of the 20xx hack pack you can use a color overlay to show whether you have the perfect timing/angle for wavedashing or not. My timing is fine, but to my surprise I don't get a perfect angle even if I'm trying. I'm very close of course, but are there any tips on actually figuring out the exact angle? I'm guessing with the exception of making notches on my controller there aren't really any good ways to figure it out though.

And I realize I'm only talking about like a degree difference so it's not probably not important, but I'd still like to correct it anyway if possible.
As Falco, I have noticed that it's VERY difficult to WD far enough so that you go across an entire YS or FoD platform. When I'm warming up, I walk into the teeter animation on a plat and try to WD so that I fall off the other end. This might not require a perfect angle, but it's certainly close. I'm sure other characters with longer WDs have similar tests they can do, such as doing a roll away from the ledge, roll from the ledge, etc.

Oh, thanks a lot! So... Better practice ^^
In the end this is like a "GO" game, a predict and a risk/reward game
Prediction and risk/reward are definitely huge components of Melee, but ofc you also have to keep in mind more concrete aspects of the game such as how to beat certain tactics. Being able to predict someone is only half the battle. The other half is executing a strategy that counters it. Armada's use of Fox's dtilt to beat Hbox's ledge camping is a great example of this.
 
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TimeMuffinPhD

PhD in time travel and muffins.
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
288
Location
Greenock, Scotland
NNID
TimeMuffinPhD
So I've been playing the game for almost 2 years now, and I've noticed that I can choke in tournament quite a bit. A lot of people have mentioned this to me and I'm convinced I can do better. How do people deal with... well not choking? I've been trying to improve my mindset by reading The Inner Game of Tennis etc, but it's not consistent. For example, I 3-0d the best player in my region, get 3-2d in Grand Finals, go on tilt and get 3-0d. It can be hard to know where I should be going, hope I can get some advice from mentally sound players :)
 

SpiderMad

Smash Master
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
4,968
Like Xyzz wrote, it is impossible to tell how long it will take for you. If you want to speed it up, you can either lay the controller on the ground with the control stick held in any direction and leave it like that for some hours or open it up and modify or exchange the spring.
That's the fastest way to do it?
 

adargu

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
Messages
1
assume im a falco facing left and need to do an uptilt facing right: what starts up faster, a frame perfect tilt turnaround uptilt or a frame perfect pivot uptilt?
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,348
Tilt turn into attack or grab next frame does turn you immediately, you don't get reverted back to original orientation unlike with jump or shield.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
So I've been playing the game for almost 2 years now, and I've noticed that I can choke in tournament quite a bit. A lot of people have mentioned this to me and I'm convinced I can do better. How do people deal with... well not choking? I've been trying to improve my mindset by reading The Inner Game of Tennis etc, but it's not consistent. For example, I 3-0d the best player in my region, get 3-2d in Grand Finals, go on tilt and get 3-0d. It can be hard to know where I should be going, hope I can get some advice from mentally sound players :)
I've heard a lot of explanations about how to deal with choking or tournament performance issues, but I don't think there's a very good blanket statement for everyone. This aspect of competition seems, imo, to hit home very hard in the "real life" department. If you have insecurities, ego problems, and other mental aspects that cause you issues in other aspects of your life, they will manifest themselves in your gameplay and amplify when you are put under extreme pressure. this probably sounds terrible, but it ends up being one of the most beneficial aspects of competition. As they say in Fight Club, "How much can you know about yourself, if you've never been in a fight?"

So while I can't offer any specific advice, I'll just say that if you keep working at it and stay honest with yourself about what's going on in your head, you can fix the problem. It's also important to realize you're never going to get rid of stress/anxiety in important matches. The top players feel these emotions like anyone else, they just know how to deal with them better and have found ways to mentally approach the game that allow them to stay focused on the game instead of their emotions. Even then, we're all human and succumb to the pressure sometimes.

Edit:
Coincidentally just found a good article about this on SRK by Lordknight.
 
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BRUJO~

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
165
Location
PNW
So, I suck. I have been playing for 2 or 3 years now, and I continue to suck in tournament and against friends. I practice tech every day, I study matches... I literally practice all the time, but I lose to people who barely ever practice more often than I beat them. Everyone says you are bound to suck at first, but it gets better over time. Well I just feel like I'm never going to get better, and it is awful. Has anyone else ever felt like this, and what helped you really improve?
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
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Jarrettsville, MD
So, I suck. I have been playing for 2 or 3 years now, and I continue to suck in tournament and against friends. I practice tech every day, I study matches... I literally practice all the time, but I lose to people who barely ever practice more often than I beat them. Everyone says you are bound to suck at first, but it gets better over time. Well I just feel like I'm never going to get better, and it is awful. Has anyone else ever felt like this, and what helped you really improve?
Do you know why you're losing? Like when you study your matches, do you look at specific instances and say "oh, I need to stop doing this" or "I need to capitalize on that situation more"? A lot of people say they are practicing tech skill and studying matches, but far too often they get little to nothing out of these exercises because they never connect their practice/study with their human play. If you study a matchup and write down a bunch of notes but then don't look at the notes right before you play a set in that matchup, then it shouldn't really be a surprise if you aren't seeing improvement. It's also recommended that you at least have surface level discussions of your notes with a friend who is very experienced with the game. He can help guide your studying so that you aren't focusing on irrelevant things that won't really help you. You don't want to end up like I did where I dwelled on my tech skill mistakes for 5 years and never put any thought into things that matter way more like stage control or conditioning. lol
 

BRUJO~

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
165
Location
PNW
Do you know why you're losing? Like when you study your matches, do you look at specific instances and say "oh, I need to stop doing this" or "I need to capitalize on that situation more"? A lot of people say they are practicing tech skill and studying matches, but far too often they get little to nothing out of these exercises because they never connect their practice/study with their human play. If you study a matchup and write down a bunch of notes but then don't look at the notes right before you play a set in that matchup, then it shouldn't really be a surprise if you aren't seeing improvement. It's also recommended that you at least have surface level discussions of your notes with a friend who is very experienced with the game. He can help guide your studying so that you aren't focusing on irrelevant things that won't really help you. You don't want to end up like I did where I dwelled on my tech skill mistakes for 5 years and never put any thought into things that matter way more like stage control or conditioning. lol
I don't have any experienced friends that I can talk to about the game, or else I would go over my notes and stuff with them. I feel like there are a couple main reasons that I am losing: 1) I have a hard time breaking down everything that is happening in real time because of the pressure and speed of a match, 2) when I download my opponent amd am able to predict what they will do, I fail to translate into a punish. When I practice tech skill, I try to practice the most important things, like waveshines, up throw up air, and shffl aerials with shine, but my tech skill always falls apart in real matches.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I don't have any experienced friends that I can talk to about the game, or else I would go over my notes and stuff with them. I feel like there are a couple main reasons that I am losing: 1) I have a hard time breaking down everything that is happening in real time because of the pressure and speed of a match, 2) when I download my opponent amd am able to predict what they will do, I fail to translate into a punish. When I practice tech skill, I try to practice the most important things, like waveshines, up throw up air, and shffl aerials with shine, but my tech skill always falls apart in real matches.
If you don't have any experienced friends, you need to go to tournaments and meet people. Show a top player some of your notes and ask them if they seem useful or if they're not super important. At the very least you should do this with your friends that you're losing to. Do they frequently tell you the same things that you need to work? I met one player who would ask for advice and just never listen and consequently never improve. I find it hard to believe you can't get any feedback from other players.

It sounds like you're only really getting a surface level understanding of your problems. Don't worry about #1 since that's normal. Even high level players occasionally have too many things going through their head to focus on everything. With experience you will learn how to prioritize your focus and will be able to more easily identify situations based on patterns.

For #2, why can't you transition from a read to a punish? If your tech skill falls apart, then you need to identify why. Are you nervous? Are you hesitating on your predictions? Are you going for punishes that are simply way too hard to do consistently? There's a million reasons you can be dropping your punishes, but if you practice tech skill properly every day, then the only way you are going to make tons of mistakes vs. humans is to have a mental block, not a physical one.
 

Mentality the Player

Banned via Warnings
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Messages
1
User was warned for this post
So I've been playing the game for almost 2 years now, and I've noticed that I can choke in tournament quite a bit. A lot of people have mentioned this to me and I'm convinced I can do better. How do people deal with... well not choking? I've been trying to improve my mindset by reading The Inner Game of Tennis etc, but it's not consistent. For example, I 3-0d the best player in my region, get 3-2d in Grand Finals, go on tilt and get 3-0d. It can be hard to know where I should be going, hope I can get some advice from mentally sound players :)
the best thing to do in this situatoin i would know because i am the best at mentailityb is to be goot at the game. you need to stop being bad at the game slly little boy
 

ethn

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 1, 2015
Messages
9
I need help with SHFFL timing. I can SHFFL consistently when hitting the air, but as soon as I hit another opponent, it doesn't come out. What am I doing wrong? Should I time the L-cancel a little slower, or???
I'm playing marth, if that helps.
 

Sycorax

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
502
Location
Atlanta, GA
I need help with SHFFL timing. I can SHFFL consistently when hitting the air, but as soon as I hit another opponent, it doesn't come out. What am I doing wrong? Should I time the L-cancel a little slower, or???
I'm playing marth, if that helps.
Hitting an opponent or shield causes hitlag. This causes you to have to delay the inputs that come after hitlag because additional frames have been added to your animation.
 

GarrBear

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
16
I was wondering, if I already have the component cables for my Wii, would it be worth it to get the HMDI converter for it? And would it also enable progressive scan mode like the component cables do? Would they reduce lag or upscale the picture at all? If you have any suggestions for good ones, that'd be great too. Thanks
 

Dolla Pills

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
894
Location
Connecticut
So a while ago I saw that someone said Peach can always air dodge out of Fox's up throw up air, is this true?

I was testing it with frame advance and the hack pack today, and from what I can conclude there are many percentages that it is indeed a true combo (at least the first hit of up air), but I'm not experienced with this sort of thing so I figure that could easily be wrong.

(What I did was up throw Peach with no DI at various percents, and do an immediate jump into immediate upair which connected around 25, and when the Peach was more damaged I waited 3 or so frames and then double jumped and upaired. Again, this wasn't overly thorough but it seemed like in general Peach had like 2 frames before the up air would hit her when she was out of hitstun, the first frame she inputs a direction to cancel tumble and the second she inputs the airdodge and the third she gets hit since airdodge is vulnerable for the first 4 frames. I figured the extra few frames before she would become vulnerable would allow for some leeway with following DI and whatnot. Again I'm new to this so I'm fully aware this could be all wrong, but since what I found contradicted what I had been told I figured I would ask here since someone is better at it than me)
 

squashhime

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 13, 2015
Messages
10
Do you guys know any reliable place to get the old gamecube controllers online in good condition? A lot of the ones I see see knockoffs or pretty beat up...
 

BrendenD

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
Messages
1
Location
Canada
Does anyone have the equations for the sinusoidal functions of the Shy Guy's movement on Yoshi's? Preferably with units explained. Much appreciated ^^
 

GenNyan

Smash Ace
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
574
Location
Florida
I was wondering, if I already have the component cables for my Wii, would it be worth it to get the HMDI converter for it? And would it also enable progressive scan mode like the component cables do? Would they reduce lag or upscale the picture at all? If you have any suggestions for good ones, that'd be great too. Thanks
Be careful because I know that some HDMI converters add significant input lag. I am not an expert though, so you should probably try asking here.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
So a while ago I saw that someone said Peach can always air dodge out of Fox's up throw up air, is this true?

I was testing it with frame advance and the hack pack today, and from what I can conclude there are many percentages that it is indeed a true combo (at least the first hit of up air), but I'm not experienced with this sort of thing so I figure that could easily be wrong.

(What I did was up throw Peach with no DI at various percents, and do an immediate jump into immediate upair which connected around 25, and when the Peach was more damaged I waited 3 or so frames and then double jumped and upaired. Again, this wasn't overly thorough but it seemed like in general Peach had like 2 frames before the up air would hit her when she was out of hitstun, the first frame she inputs a direction to cancel tumble and the second she inputs the airdodge and the third she gets hit since airdodge is vulnerable for the first 4 frames. I figured the extra few frames before she would become vulnerable would allow for some leeway with following DI and whatnot. Again I'm new to this so I'm fully aware this could be all wrong, but since what I found contradicted what I had been told I figured I would ask here since someone is better at it than me)
Once you start testing things with the hack pack you'll come to find a lot of the community's "common knowledge" is just plain wrong. I personally l remember finding Fox's uthrow uair barely combos on no DI, so it sounds like you tested everything properly. Testing different DI angles obviously gets way more complicated very quickly which is why very few combos are documented with that level of flexibility.
 

Plunder

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
862
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Port Royal
NNID
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I tried googling and looking around but can't find data on this...

When I auto-cancel an aerial and then try and platform drop it seems like I have to wait a lot longer than just an L-cancelled aerial into a platform drop. Anyone have specifics on this? Or am I imagining things...
 

Spak

Hero of Neverwinter
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Messages
4,032
Location
Earth
I tried googling and looking around but can't find data on this...

When I auto-cancel an aerial and then try and platform drop it seems like I have to wait a lot longer than just an L-cancelled aerial into a platform drop. Anyone have specifics on this? Or am I imagining things...
You're imagining things, unless the landing lag after an L-Cancel is less than the normal time for someone to land from a jump (2 frames for Pichu, 4 frames for everyone not listed, 5 frames for DK and Ganon, and 6 frames for Boswer).
 
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