Important Official Custom Moveset Project

[Sonicrida]

As much as I would love to see customs on again, I'm not exactly sure if I like the idea of having them on at EVO instead of right after. We already know that EVO, despite not having anything major happening because of customs, failed to change any opinions. At this point, I feel like the "Season of Smash" started with Genesis so not continuing through the year (or at least until EVO) with the same ruleset will cause more problems than we need. I've pondered on the idea of getting people together to run the game in "seasons" with an off season to look at and revive the ruleset. Seems like it's be way too hard to do though. Also, is there a discord or any place that people who like customs hangout at all? I feel like there should be a discord if there isn't one already.

One thing I never see is a bunch of cool custom tech videos on the subreddit anymore. That could go a long way towards getting more support. Small victory in the upcoming KTAR choosing to allow all Mii Fighter specials on for that event. Online tourneys? Knowing what the custom playerbase is like in each region could go a long way. I've been a big supporter of customs but never really made an effort to contribute here. I'm hoping to change that now. The game is much deeper to me with customs on and the way I played made much more sense with customs on. I've been missing them ever since they were disabled.

 

[paperchao]

As much as I would love to see customs on again, I'm not exactly sure if I like the idea of having them on at EVO instead of right after. We already know that EVO, despite not having anything major happening because of customs, failed to change any opinions. At this point, I feel like the "Season of Smash" started with Genesis so not continuing through the year (or at least until EVO) with the same ruleset will cause more problems than we need. I've pondered on the idea of getting people together to run the game in "seasons" with an off season to look at and revive the ruleset. Seems like it's be way too hard to do though. Also, is there a discord or any place that people who like customs hangout at all? I feel like there should be a discord if there isn't one already.

One thing I never see is a bunch of cool custom tech videos on the subreddit anymore. That could go a long way towards getting more support. Small victory in the upcoming KTAR choosing to allow all Mii Fighter specials on for that event. Online tourneys? Knowing what the custom playerbase is like in each region could go a long way. I've been a big supporter of customs but never really made an effort to contribute here. I'm hoping to change that now. The game is much deeper to me with customs on and the way I played made much more sense with customs on. I've been missing them ever since they were disabled.

That could work, but there is still the hurdle of getting people on board with these seasons. Also, apparently bayonetta can unlock customs quickly through trophy rush using her bullet arts.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

That could work, but there is still the hurdle of getting people on board with these seasons. Also, apparently bayonetta can unlock customs quickly through trophy rush using her bullet arts.

I never even thought of this but dear lord you're right, she can probably destroy that mode.

*5 minutes later*

Yep, she destroys it utterly. FH Bullet Art uair spam. Since you're jumping constantly, it doesn't even trigger the lightning ball thing that comes down if you stay still too long. 40 tropies, 3 customizations, a few hundred gold, and a chain of nearly 600.

 

[Sonicrida]

That could work, but there is still the hurdle of getting people on board with these seasons.

Indeed, it's just an idea right now. It would take multiple TOs working together running events in sync with one another willing to try things out. Definitely isn't something that will happen overnight.

 

[paperchao]

How beneficial would it be for someone to make a series on YouTube that goes in detail of a characters customs, and shows the uses and counterplay each have? This hypothetical series could also correct misinformation, such as the pikachu infinite still being present, and so on.

 

[Sonicrida]

How beneficial would it be for someone to make a series on YouTube that goes in detail of a characters customs, and shows the uses and counterplay each have? This hypothetical series could also correct misinformation, such as the pikachu infinite still being present, and so on.

Seeing as how people did this before and it didn't help much regardless, I think that this isn't the answer (at least by itself). I think it'll take a combined effort to show not only why customs aren't a pain to deal with, but also what they can do to improve the game. This means not just explanations, but tons of match footage showing things that you just can't see or do in a non customs meta. This could be tournaments being ran locally or in person, streams, ect. It would require a much more all around approach. A YouTube series would be one required piece in a much larger puzzle I'd say.

 

[Wavebird]

Last year was a blast hopefully we can have customs back this year cause why not

they already have a presence at Evo and we have backbone build from last year

being a megaman player I understand customs might be catering to such a small demographic, but honestly we haven't seen much progress other than when Evo had customs. Over the span of last year it's been losing steam little by little people are content with DLC but customs just lay on the backburner.

The future doesn't look bright for customs but I still would like to see them being used at least one last time (megaman with skull shield lets go lol)

 

[paperchao]

So uh, will this project ever make a return? Now that the game isn't being updated anymore this is a good time to experiment and advance the customs meta once more. Also I sorta miss custom ganon and fast fire bird.

 

[Raijinken]

So uh, will this project ever make a return? Now that the game isn't being updated anymore this is a good time to experiment and advance the customs meta once more. Also I sorta miss custom ganon and fast fire bird.

While I'd not be terribly surprised, was it explicitly stated that the game will not be updated any more after 1.1.4?

At any rate, project interest seems to have mostly waned. I and my friends primarily just use our own sets, and the general public has lost interest in general. I'd be willing to contribute to any such project, but I (and most others, it seems) lack the time to spearhead it myself.

 

[SwordM13X24]

Real darn shame, given the potential possibles that customs could of given us but ultimately never saw regular use/play due to how poorly design'd on how it is use'd in the game, how it's obtain'd, and how poorly/lazily some moves are made.

Xenophobia is one of the players' problem, but we can't still discount the number of designer issues to begin with.

 

[Garo]

Didn't this project basically make many of those "designer issues" non-issues though? At this point it's just the anti-custom players that are preventing the game from evolving.

 

[Raijinken]

Didn't this project basically make many of those "designer issues" non-issues though? At this point it's just the anti-custom players that are preventing the game from evolving.

That's a bit up to interpretation. To any sizable scene, or small scene with one interested player who has the 3DS version, the remaining "designer issue" is basically the hard limit of ten sets for any non-Mii character, and only 100 maximum Miis. Not a big hurdle, but a valid complaint if you unrealistically but idealistically assume everyone attending a tournament may want to run a different set on the same character.

Past that, it's pretty much solved. Setup is one-time on the 3DS end (mind numbing but worth it), and one time on the U (and rather quick, to boot). Unlocks are time consuming but, again, only one person has to get them for a minimum functioning event, and there are numerous automatic or semi-automatic ways to get them when you're not even playing the game otherwise (Turbo Controller in Target Blast, Smash Tour, Amiibo gifts, etc). There are a lot of ways it could be better, but ultimately it boils down to lazy or otherwise opposed players overblowing an inconvenience as an impossibility. You don't see the unlock time for past games' stages and characters inhibiting their competitions (Even the Melee Memory Card sharing strategy is darn-near identical to the 3DS strategy for customs).

 

[Jaguar360]

I mean, most of the sets look good for my characters at least. Greninja has all of his Shurikens represented and a decent amount of Exploding Attack; Yoshi looks fine, though I'd want one or two more Bouncy Egg Roll sets; Zelda looks fine, but I haven't looked into her customs in a while; everyone else that I play somewhat often seems fine.

 

[Raijinken]

I mean, most of the sets look good for my characters at least. Greninja has all of his Shurikens represented and a decent amount of Exploding Attack; Yoshi looks fine, though I'd want one or two more Bouncy Egg Roll sets; Zelda looks fine, but I haven't looked into her customs in a while; everyone else that I play somewhat often seems fine.

There are others that are less fine. Shulk is mostly fine but needs some tweaks with Dash Vision and Advancing Air Slash, Pac-Man needs something NOT Meteor Trampoline on at least a few sets, etc.

 

[SwordM13X24]

Didn't this project basically make many of those "designer issues" non-issues though? At this point it's just the anti-custom players that are preventing the game from evolving.

As much as I would like to see that the designer flaws are solve'd in just this project alone, there's still the problem of general accessibility to be able to practice with said customs and such.
Now I see myself as a rather lazy person, but I'm quite the grinder in games. However, not a whole of folks are just as much of the grinder like I am. Character unlocks is near effortless. Stage unlocks takes a bit more. ALL customs is a rather gruelin' task for the average person, and even I got slightly worn a bit to collect all those moves.

It's not like Animal Crossin' or Pokemon where ya could simply grab a few of the game's item here and there and just trade it with others to complete yar collection fast. Think of if ya were not allow'd to trade in Pokemon, then the already dauntin' task of catch'em all would be nigh impossible.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Random thought, tangential at best to customs but maybe worth thinking about.

So Smash Wii U hacking is slowly advancing. It's probably only a matter of time until someone figures out how to trick the game into thinking all customs are unlocked. (Alternately, making the game unlock them all at once. Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.) If/when the main logistical barrier is solved completely, I think that would be a good opportunity to try and sell people on customs again. Bonus points if it can be done in a simple, risk-free manner.

Also, if editing individual move properties ever becomes a thing, then that could lead to rebalancing customs. Tone down the ones everyone complains about, make Jigglypuff and Meta Knight's worth using, etc.

Basically I'm sort of pinning my hopes on the hacking scene because I think it has some interesting potential provided it can be made to work right in the first place.

 

[paperchao]

Random thought, tangential at best to customs but maybe worth thinking about.

So Smash Wii U hacking is slowly advancing. It's probably only a matter of time until someone figures out how to trick the game into thinking all customs are unlocked. (Alternately, making the game unlock them all at once. Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.) If/when the main logistical barrier is solved completely, I think that would be a good opportunity to try and sell people on customs again. Bonus points if it can be done in a simple, risk-free manner.

Also, if editing individual move properties ever becomes a thing, then that could lead to rebalancing customs. Tone down the ones everyone complains about, make Jigglypuff and Meta Knight's worth using, etc.

Basically I'm sort of pinning my hopes on the hacking scene because I think it has some interesting potential provided it can be made to work right in the first place.

I would only go as far as hacking all the customs to be unlocked, as balancing them would be a tough task, as there's a lot of customs that are undertuned, but could become unhealthy if overtuned. And it would probably be more favorable to balance the vanilla roster to be viable at that point anyways.

 

[SwordM13X24]

I agree with JUST the hackin' for accessibility portion. If we were to start moddin' the moves ourselves, then we would be no different than Project M except we're on Smash 4 instead of Brawl. Not that I'm tryin' to bash Project M or anythin', but it'll just simply lead into a more divide'd game and a nice "standard" would be hard to establish with an already somewhat divide'd community.

 

[Raijinken]

Random thought, tangential at best to customs but maybe worth thinking about.

So Smash Wii U hacking is slowly advancing. It's probably only a matter of time until someone figures out how to trick the game into thinking all customs are unlocked. (Alternately, making the game unlock them all at once. Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.) If/when the main logistical barrier is solved completely, I think that would be a good opportunity to try and sell people on customs again. Bonus points if it can be done in a simple, risk-free manner.

Also, if editing individual move properties ever becomes a thing, then that could lead to rebalancing customs. Tone down the ones everyone complains about, make Jigglypuff and Meta Knight's worth using, etc.

Basically I'm sort of pinning my hopes on the hacking scene because I think it has some interesting potential provided it can be made to work right in the first place.

Project 4C? I'd play that (but only if it's a softmod like stacksmash).

But I agree with the others, best to start with accessibility.

Though seriously, do people struggle that hard to bring their system to an event and have someone dump the project on it? I managed that for four consoles in one event and we still finished on time.

 

[paperchao]

Project 4C? I'd play that (but only if it's a softmod like stacksmash).

But I agree with the others, best to start with accessibility.

Though seriously, do people struggle that hard to bring their system to an event and have someone dump the project on it? I managed that for four consoles in one event and we still finished on time.

That is if someone actually has the project in their area, as customs obviously aren't in favor of the playbase right now, also Laziness is also a factor.

 

[Raijinken]

That is if someone actually has the project in their area, as customs obviously aren't in favor of the playbase right now, also Laziness is also a factor.

This is true, but I feel like if even a small scene has enough interest to even consider it, at least one person will do the unlocks. Bit of a joke otherwise, laziness or not. "I want to play with customs but refuse to unlock them." Only slightly more reasonable (solely due to time) than "I want to play on Smashville but I refuse to do Event Mode."

Laziness is really the factor there. Heck, if your scene is too small to have someone with a 3DS active, it's probably small enough that you can get by just unlocking it on one Wii U and playing the whole event from that system.

 

[Shaya]

So with this project's current release approaching a year of age (and probably older with the previous release) a few things need to be asked and considered.
Is this project dead? Very likely
Is there still a valid reason for this project? At this current time with no majors over the horizon and custom legal regions being very limited and likely not having any logistical issues that require this - the question is are people using it still in some capacity?

A lot of the reason for keeping this thread going was for it to be the de factor "Customs Meta" hub, but I'm not sure if it's actually achieved that with being more of a cycle of the same argument. Other threads pop up often about customs to dilute the centralization and offer another run of regurgitated discussion (I would believe).

So among those, how would you like to see Customs supported in the competitive section at this stage?
Could we do with a new hub thread more reflective of the times (sparse / no unified rule set structure ?)
Do we archive these sets for interests sake or for some unknown time in the future?

 

[Masonomace]

There are others that are less fine. Shulk is mostly fine but needs some tweaks with Dash Vision and Advancing Air Slash, Pac-Man needs something NOT Meteor Trampoline on at least a few sets, etc.

Interesting. What tweaks would be needed for DV & AAS if you don't mind me asking?

So among those, how would you like to see Customs supported in the competitive section at this stage?

Assuming customs will never see the light of competitive meta, then I'd still want for them to be a good side-event. Kansas has a fun & a strong supportive custom meta scene in which it has monthlies that run very well thanks to the staff including DeLux as the proud TO.

Could we do with a new hub thread more reflective of the times (sparse / no unified rule set structure ?)

Dunno atm.

Do we archive these sets for interests sake or for some unknown time in the future?

Sure I'm down. Here's a good amount of sets found at Hype! Train 6 thanks to Amazing Ampharos & JungleChief bringing a capture card for the tourney. This includes sets found in pools, semifinals, finals, Grands, etc..
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmHi1rPbj_Rpkq3gimJQq5QN_5zpPPlhP

 

[Shaya]

Should probably clarify competitive section = in this forum.

 

[Masonomace]

Oh. . uhm I suppose a compiled list of tournaments hosted that allowed custom specials for one could be good? That way it'd get notice & show players who like the custom meta being aware of a scene near them that they could be apart of n stuff like that.

Got no other ideas atm.

 

[W.A.C.]

We still haven't received word about whether or not EVO will run customs again, though at this point, it's very unlikely they'll run customs again after the backlash last year. :/ I'd love to see this project revived, but I doubt it'll happen.

 

[Shaya]

Okay okay, no point repeating the wallowing.
I'm asking what you would like to see done with this current mess on smashboards in the competitive section so it's better for those who care for it and wish to still have a public place to talk about customs/it's meta in a way that's progressive.

 

[SwordM13X24]

At this point, I'm just throwin' wet spaghetti on the wall and hopin' it sticks...
Maybe a sub-forum might be too much to ask for a pro-customs meta? While we're at that, other "common" non-1v1 metas like doubles, crews?, 3v3, Smooth Lander Heavy Gravity, etc could get their little corner as well.

Or a more doable solution in that we could just group all the non-1v1 metas in a sub-forum altogether.

 

[paperchao]

Okay okay, no point repeating the wallowing.
I'm asking what you would like to see done with this current mess on smashboards in the competitive section so it's better for those who care for it and wish to still have a public place to talk about customs/it's meta in a way that's progressive.

Maybe a thread to talk about the meta and figure out where each character stands with their custom options? Although a type of thread like that could get redundant with the normal discussion thread already there...

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with paper's post.

A single thread on THE Custom meta:
Who still plays it, new discoveries, proposed sets, videos, ideas on how to expand it...
And of course, just like this thread, not a discussion on its value as that would beat the point of it, but we'd all assume the meta is valid and legit and will only talk on how to push it FORWARD, not back.

 

[Raijinken]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with paper's post.

A single thread on THE Custom meta:
Who still plays it, new discoveries, proposed sets, videos, ideas on how to expand it...
And of course, just like this thread, not a discussion on its value as that would beat the point of it, but we'd all assume the meta is valid and legit and will only talk on how to push it FORWARD, not back.

Would we be safe from the naysayers there?

Otherwise, while this is still the "official" Custom Moveset Project thread, this seems the most reasonable place to discuss custom movesets, their benefits, and whatever changes they need. Speaking to which,

Interesting. What tweaks would be needed for DV & AAS if you don't mind me asking?

There was some discussion a while back that I may mis-state part of or under-explain, but basically, at the time of project implementation, Power Vision was considered the best Vision variant, and it wasn't until later that people figured out Dash Vision is excellent against projectile users since it can close a very large gap very quickly (a thing which Shulk generally is weaker against, and projectiles are normally reasonably telegraphed and easy to see coming in advance). Basically, it should have been in more sets than it was.

Advancing Air Slash helps his recovery due to its lower ending lag and somewhat better horizontal range (if you can't/don't sweetspot), while not really affecting Air Slash's already limited offensive uses.

 

[Masonomace]

There was some discussion a while back that I may mis-state part of or under-explain, but basically, at the time of project implementation, Power Vision was considered the best Vision variant, and it wasn't until later that people figured out Dash Vision is excellent against projectile users since it can close a very large gap very quickly (a thing which Shulk generally is weaker against, and projectiles are normally reasonably telegraphed and easy to see coming in advance). Basically, it should have been in more sets than it was.

Advancing Air Slash helps his recovery due to its lower ending lag and somewhat better horizontal range (if you can't/don't sweetspot), while not really affecting Air Slash's already limited offensive uses.

You're right. Power Vision is incredibly easy to bait & is useless versus any zoning or footsies that will never result in them over-committing to a risk that would lead to them fishing for something. However, PV is quite good against characters without a projectile-game or whenever the attack's endlag / landing lag lasts long enough to be punished by the regular direction counter. That said, DV is very good & should be a staple move to be in most of Shulk's sets.

AAS does very many wonders for Shulk that lead me to believe & stand by the fact that the move augments a lot of pros & alleviates some cons for Shulk, but it's not a straight upgrade as it sacrifices some things. You pay the price of sacrificing deep edge-guards that regular Air Slash possessed, but in return you get:

• a first hit with different knockback angles that have the potential to stage spike at basically any percents
• the knockback angles from the first hit are much lower thus helping the move connect into the second hit more often
• a second hit that possesses a faster startup hitbox & dips downward
• a more reliable snapping feature with the second hit
• the ability to recover anywhere from high to mid-low much easier
• an UpB that drifts greater distances to assist for multiple scenarios (recovering, retreating away after a combo in order to be more safe, punish guessing where you'll land, etc..)
• several applications including platform-play & planking the ledge

The move is great. Just wished all of Shulk's customs were as good as DV & AAS.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Just started playing casual matches with customs on again and I see such a missed opportunity here. Gonna try it again with friends and see what my they think of it. I think all the different number combinations put them off though - they don't have their own copies of the game so they don't know what the numbers mean.

Now that the "final" balance patch is in, do we stick with the Evo sets or do we do one last list change? If the latter, I'm hoping we keep it to at most 8 sets so I can use the last two for combos I like that aren't as popular. I really like angelic missile on Palutena for some reason.

 

[paperchao]

Would we be safe from the naysayers there?

Otherwise, while this is still the "official" Custom Moveset Project thread, this seems the most reasonable place to discuss custom movesets, their benefits, and whatever changes they need.

Well, the thread would be about discussing the customs meta as a whole, not the legality of it, so a rule preventing discussion of customs legality could be put in place to not derail the thread.

 

[Raijinken]

Just started playing casual matches with customs on again and I see such a missed opportunity here. Gonna try it again with friends and see what my they think of it. I think all the different number combinations put them off though - they don't have their own copies of the game so they don't know what the numbers mean.

Now that the "final" balance patch is in, do we stick with the Evo sets or do we do one last list change? If the latter, I'm hoping we keep it to at most 8 sets so I can use the last two for combos I like that aren't as popular. I really like angelic missile on Palutena for some reason.

Especially if you're just playing locally with friends, there's no major reason to adopt the moveset standard. Have your friends make their own sets (set their favorite character color for easier memory if they don't use default), and if they need a refresher, start each match with a quick use of each special.

Well, the thread would be about discussing the customs meta as a whole, not the legality of it, so a rule preventing discussion of customs legality could be put in place to not derail the thread.

One thought I had at work, I wonder if Customs could warrant a separate sub-forum of its own, instead of just a single thread? It's a bit broader of a topic than a single thread caters to (different characters, logistics ideas, event organization, video threads, etc), maybe a board sorta like the Smash 4 Academy or the Character boards. I'm not sure what, if any, drawbacks there'd be from a Smashboards operational standpoint, but from a Customs discussion standpoint it seems to offer the best degree of isolation while still giving space to discuss.

Edit: and then I re-read above and saw that the idea was mentioned. Consider this my support for the idea of a dedicated Customs forum, not a single thread.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with paper's post.

A single thread on THE Custom meta:
Who still plays it, new discoveries, proposed sets, videos, ideas on how to expand it...
And of course, just like this thread, not a discussion on its value as that would beat the point of it, but we'd all assume the meta is valid and legit and will only talk on how to push it FORWARD, not back.

Excellent; exactly what I was implying and I'm glad people want that.

 

[W.A.C.]

Considering how Amazing Ampharos rarely appears, if he's no longer interested in running this project, wouldn't it be best to see if someone else was interested in running it? That is, unless Amazing Ampharos plans on reviving the project. We did just have our last balance patch, so this could be the final time we have a massive revision of the custom move project. I'd love to see this project get revived.

 

[LRodC]

If you guys do decide to have a customs sub forum, I would definitely join it to contribute, as I always liked them. Even if it's just a side metagame, I'd like to see some type of scene for it.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Just started a discord group for custom move discussion. now I know how to do a permanent link so here it is

https://discord.gg/0pqkuGnInuCPMicn

Right now it's very barebones but I'd like to update it with more info tomorrow.

 

[paperchao]

Just started a discord group for custom move discussion. now I know how to do a permanent link so here it is

https://discord.gg/0pqkuGnInuCPMicn

Right now it's very barebones but I'd like to update it with more info tomorrow.

Thats a great idea, this discord could be pretty useful if used right imo