Official BBR Tier List v7

[da K.I.D.]

you can actually use this same matchup as a example for the above situation. since ddd has that buffered reverse turnaround grab infinite on snake.

 

[Kewkky]

you can actually use this same matchup as a example for the above situation. since ddd has that buffered reverse turnaround grab infinite on snake.

Has someone been able to 0-death Snakes in tournaments consistently with DDD by doing that, though?

 

[-LzR-]

By simplicity I mean't it's a factor in lower levels of play.

 

[B0NK]

you can actually use this same matchup as a example for the above situation. since ddd has that buffered reverse turnaround grab infinite on snake.

It's basically a TAS-only tactic as of now because of the difficulty to perform it multiple times, for multiple stock, and consistently. I don't think any would argue against D3 advantage if literally any player was able to utilize it in tourney. Anything that's been discussed is completely possible and has been performed in tourney already.

But who knows, Maybe a try hard will rise to the challenge

 

[bubbaking]

At higher levels of play though, we have a winning record. Part of the reason I'm staunchly rebutting your claims that "Snake wins the MU" is that there's no actual proof. There's theory that may or may not make sense, but in the way of evidence, we have Ally hating the MU so much that he never goes Snake for it anymore and we have Atomsk (and other top DDDs; I just think he's the best against Snake) consistently trouncing the other top Snakes. Razer, Bizkit, MVD, they all get seriously messed up by that MU. If I went off of results alone, DDD wins this MU. I don't think it's really far from the truth at all to call the MU even.

Btw, the same reasoning applies to DDD:Fox. I think that MU is pretty dead-even, but results infer DDD wins. It doesn't matter though, because most players will just go MK against DDD anyway unless they main Olimar, ICs, or Pika.

 

[Shaya]

What about you ******** just stop using Dedede? jeez

 

[Kewkky]

At higher levels of play though, we have a winning record.

Source? (hearsay isn't a source, by the way)

If you can't cite a source or link to results, or actual posts from the Snake/DDD top players, I'd find it hard to believe you've been eagle-eyeing every top Snake vs top DDD match that's ever been played since the last MU chart was made. If you can find proof, this Snake/DDD discussion can finally end.

 

[Shaya]

I think Ally wins sets against Dededes as Snake once or twice a decade, if that's anything to go by.

 

[Kewkky]

That's still just hearsay, though. And if we went by both yours and bubba's posts, the MU would sound worse than just a +1 in DDD's favor.

What about the other Snake mainers?

 

[bubbaking]

When did I ever say that hearsay was my source? You should know by now that I'm ALWAYS willing to search for and provide links to results, videos, and posts. Like, why would you doubt this? I'm probably the most try-hard legible poster on these boards (Dark.Pch wins if we include illegible posts). And you may find it hard to believe, but I HAVE been "eagle-eyeing" almost every single top Snake vs top DDD match that I could find. Prepare for this discussion to end.

Here are relevant matches from one fairly recent tourney to make my point (this isn't in response to Kewkky; I'd already typed this up before I typed the above paragraph):
WHOBO 4 - Ally vs Atomsk (If you only count DDD vs Snake, then Atomsk won 2-0, but according to APEX ruleset, it's 1-0)
WHOBO 4 - Seibrik vs MVD (In DDD vs Snake, Seibrik won 1-0)
WHOBO 4 - Ally vs Atomsk - Losers Semis (This is a bit of a side-note. After losing to Atomsk with his best character, Ally refuses to play Snake and 3-0's Atomsk.)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Cherrypicking videos and results to "prove" your points isn't cool, bubba.

 

[Dekillsage]

Shouldn't trust results completely to decide what a mu is.
IC's vs mk looks even if you look @ results but that's far from true.

 

[Kewkky]

Shouldn't trust results completely to decide what a mu is.
IC's vs mk looks even if you look @ results but that's far from true.

How is it far from true? If the MU say it's in IC's favor (or even or w/e), but MK wins more often, I'd be inclined to believe that MK has the upper hand.

 

[bubbaking]

Gheb, I'm curious. Did you even read my post, or did you just skip down to the videos without reading the contextual information? I said that second paragraph wasn't a response to Kewkky. It was supposed to be its own individual post to make a point. The point was that the best Snake in the America, and maybe the world, met Atomsk and his Snake got trounced. Then another top Snake met Seibrik and got DESTROYED. Later on, Ally ran into Atomsk again and he went characters whom we hopefully can agree he is not as good with as he is with Snake. Regardless, he defeated Atomsk so soundly that there was no mistake who reigned supreme between them. Do us all a favor and put the pieces together, Gheb.

My reply to Kewkky is coming.

 

[BlueXenon]

I'd say that neither character's tourney results allow us to give a well educated judgment over whom is better. In such a case it'd make more sense to look at the players who have lost to either of these two characters.

M2K, Kakera, Mikeneko, Vinnie, ESAM, Atomsk, Shu, Leon and Ramin are the best players I can think of that have dropped sets to ROB. MK, ICs, Marth, DDD, Snake and Pikachu are the character and this list is based on two ROB players [Ocean, Luminous, Holy and 8bitman].
The best players that have lost to Ness are DEHF, Abadango, Ryo, Denti, RichBrown and Tyrant. Falco, Wario, MK, Olimar and Ike and the list is based on two Ness players.

If you look at it that way ROB probably has an edge.

I just want to add that I heard on the whobo 4 stream that Trela lost to Shaky. I think It was during the Ally vs Atomsk set.

 

[Dekillsage]

How is it far from true? If the MU say it's in IC's favor (or even or w/e), but MK wins more often, I'd be inclined to believe that MK has the upper hand.

Only one side of the coin. bbl busy q-q

 

[Kewkky]

ICs are more common than ROB and also had their time to shine (and still are shining), so people shouldn't be as surprised by ICs as they are when they finally play against a great ROB player. Plus we've seen more IC matches vs MK than ROB vs MK at top level play. I can't really say that ROB would be a good example.

 

[bubbaking]

So, in response to Kewkky, I'm compiling all the matches I could find within a rough 1.5 year period. If I go further back, it looks like DDD +2's Snake, but that's admittedly not fair because it's outdated and Snakes must not have been smart enough to magically win this MU.

Other than what I posted earlier, I couldn't find any more Ally vs Atomsk, or rather, no more of Ally's Snake vs Atomsk (or even against Seibrik). I found plenty of Ally's MK (plus Falco, Wario, etc.), but no more Snake. Does this possibly say something about the MU?

Smashachusetts 3: Bizkit(Snake) vs Atomsk(DDD) R1 (Atomsk wins)
Smashachusetts 3: Bizkit(Snake) vs Atomsk(DDD) R2 (Bizkit wins)
Smashachusetts 3: Bizkit(Snake) vs Atomsk(DDD) R3 (Atomsk wins)

TF1- Seibrik(Dedede) vs. MVD(Snake) GFs (Seibrik wins 3-1)
Seibrik (King Dedede) vs MVD (Snake/ICs) (Hmmm, seems like MVD has lost faith in this MU so much that he goes ICs now against DDD... Regardless, in DDD vs Snake, Seibrik wins 2-0).

More is actually coming but I thought I'd feed you all an update. Don't forget the WHOBO 4 sets I linked earlier.

Keep in mind that I've always been arguing for an even MU between Snake and DDD, despite all the evidence I'm providing. Perhaps I'm crazy. Perhaps I should just stop making my own life hard for no reason and just say that DDD beats Snake. The more I go back and look at the evidence, the more I realize that Marc might be right. Perhaps I'm being so selective with the evidence that I've fooled myself into believing that DDD doesn't win this match-up.

 

[bubbaking]

More for now:
KTAR 5: Atomsk (King Dedede) vs. Fatal (Snake) (Atomsk wins 2-0).

Concentrate IV - SSBB W2 - BizKit VS Atomsk (Atomsk wins 2-0).

Mr. R (Marth/Snake) vs Seibrik (DDD) 1-3
Mr. R (Snake) vs Seibrik (DDD) 4 MM (In DDD vs Snake over the entire MM, the record was 1-1)

Also, don't forget the Concentrate #1 sets I linked of Fatal beating Atomsk 2-1 and Ally refusing to go Snake to beat Atomsk 2-0. The Fatal set is like, the only recent evidence there is of Snake not losing this MU. However, AT THAT SAME TOURNEY, we have:
Concentrate #01 - SSBB Singles W3 - BizKit VS Atomsk (In DDD vs Snake, Atomsk wins 2-0)
Oh, also, Snake is GIMPED a few times during these matches, sooooo yeah...

Now, can somebody PLEASE show me where Snake can potentially destroy DDD off of some pseudo-CG-dthrow-regrab-DDD-can't-do-anything BS?

We're done now, right? DDD:Snake is even (or +1 DDD's flavor).

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

wow bubba, I'm impressed that was so will written you even got smfp to like it.

Definitely agree more discussion needs to be more about on rps situations and risk reward ratios. And less about how you can counter any single option with spot dodge. Theoretically you can counter any option with spot dodge and power shield but hey that isn't how mu's actually go....

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Theoretically you can counter any option with spot dodge and power shield

This is totally not true.

 

[Kewkky]

At this point, I'm pretty sure DDD vs Snake isn't even. If Snake has problems against DDD at all levels of play, ESPECIALLY at the top levels, it can't possibly be called even.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

This is totally not true.

Haven't been to your thread on this yet but doesn't power shield remove shield push back allowing punishment of moves things like snakes ftilt which ddd has trouble shield grabbing otherwise?

Edit- yeah you address that I'm your thread.

 

[DeLux]

2 point for bubbaking

For following logic to its extreme conclusion and getting to the heart of the matter (not talking about DDD vs. Snake)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think that unless dekillsage or whoever it is arguing in Snake's favor can come up with a post with more videos of Snake winning than bubbaking posted, I'd personally more inclined to believe his opinion of the match up.

 

[Luco]

I think that unless dekillsage or whoever it is arguing in Snake's favor can come up with a post with more videos of Snake winning than bubbaking posted, I'd personally more inclined to believe his opinion of the match up.

Yeah i'm pretty happy with what bubba just did there. That was a really solid bunch of posts there, mate.

 

[So Fatal]

can people stop arguing about me, i quit ;(

 

[RaptorTEC]

But you were at a tourney 6 days ago

 

[Luco]

can people stop arguing about me, i quit ;(

:C :C :C :C :C

NEVER! *pushes back in to the scene*

 

[So Fatal]

also snake vs ddd this is my fav set ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROFhuqvi9bg

... its a tough mu

 

[Dekillsage]

I can't provide that much video evidence of snake winning.

There's this though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXF7XheGTt4

Sorry guys I'm too lazy :D

can people stop arguing about me, i quit ;(

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Can't DDD d-throw to u smash snake?

 

[Dekillsage]

Can't DDD d-throw to u smash snake?

Nope that's lucario

 

[Iota]

Can we talk about a different top/high tier MU now?

 

[Desu~]

Jigglypuff totally beats snake no sweat.

 

[Tesh]

Iono, we've seen what a puffball can do to Snake with the right mindset.

Anyone remember Falln vs Havok? Running away with an aerial character is very good vs Snake, even if most of what your character has is trash.

 

[Dekillsage]

She does.

Next match up pls

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Let's discuss Lucario and if he'll ever be good enough to be higher than Wario on the tier list.

Has anyone noticed that SWF's emotes are godawful?

 

[Dekillsage]

Yeah they're pretty bad

Where is lucario on the tier list compared to wario?

 

[pidgezero_one]

What about you *******s just stop using Dedede? jeez

My avatar would like a moment for rebuttal