Official BBR Tier List v7

[da K.I.D.]

it probably required a DR or something which makes it too difficult to try considering they can just upsmash you.

 

[Scatz]

I mentioned gimping because it's all about guessing which move yoshi will use. Usmash will make you DI left/right, which allows dsmash to get the low angle for gimping. I didn't say it was a reliable tool, but it's definitely a possibility. Still, all the moves has to be landed by a grab first.

@KiD: People just don't put effort into learning it. I can do it consistently off grabs and have no issues landing it. Just because everyone else can't (hasn't put forth the effort to) do it doesn't mean it's not an option.

Also, reason why I mentioned against Lucas is cause he's literally ****ed from the grab release. He regains control just barely before landing on the ground. Airdodging doesn't work since he lands on the ground (landing lag allows him to get hit), and a DJAD takes 5 extra frames to work. It's not like MK where the timing is super strict.

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. KID is all caps. KiD with a lower case I is a different dude.

2. i was just mentioning why hes never heard about that being possible, thats all.

3. Im coming up to visit you guys again in about a month, did Iblis tell you?

 

[Scatz]

Ah my bad. Didn't know someone else has that name.

No, he didn't tell me. How long you're gonna be here?

 

[#HBC | J]

I mentioned gimping because it's all about guessing which move yoshi will use. Usmash will make you DI left/right, which allows dsmash to get the low angle for gimping. I didn't say it was a reliable tool, but it's definitely a possibility. Still, all the moves has to be landed by a grab first.

Alright that's fair, it is a possibility, but Lucas will most likely not be getting gimped by a Yoshi. *shrug*

@KiD: People just don't put effort into learning it. I can do it consistently off grabs and have no issues landing it. Just because everyone else can't (hasn't put forth the effort to) do it doesn't mean it's not an option.

Can you show me the frame data for this? I am very curious now.

 

[Luco]

Well in that case, due to shenanigans by yoshi in terms of grabs and lack of easy kills, it probably is a -1. Still, I keep recalling that Yoshi has some problems himself when it comes to killing. This just me?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Not when he can GR > KO.

 

[#HBC | J]

Not when he can GR > KO.

Haha this, Yoshi can get a KO if he can get the grab, otherwise, yes Yoshi has a hardish time killing.

 

[Scatz]

Unfortantely, I'm not in a position to list out the frame data (and i don't have the information saved anymore). I'll PM you that information when I'm back home next week.

 

[#HBC | J]

Thank you very much. I appreciate it, Scatz.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

For those interested: quiKsilver and AscWolf who are currently in Japan have asked Nietono about the most recent japanese tier list. This is what they got:

Top:
S+
S
A+

High:
A
B
C+

Mid:
C
D+
D

Low:
E
F
G
H
I

There's a couple of things I can agree with [Fox, Pit, Wario, Ganondorf] and I generally feel like they've got the top tier pretty much completely correct. Only thing I'd change from the Top + High tier is that Pikachu should take ZSS' spot.

 

[DMG]

Fox Pit always so high, no wonder Fox is that high though when they put Pika like 10 spots above Ganon lol. What is Marth doing below Pit?

 

[Sunnysunny]

Theres so much right with that list, and so much wrong at the same time.

Different metagame I guess.
I'm still wondering how the hell Link is above Yoshi. Does japan just not have any yoshi rep? ._.

 

[Browny]

I approve of ganon being above falcon

lol pikachu, too slow.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's actually pretty shocking to see Pikachu that low...
No pun intended.

Edit: The only Yoshi rep is Karamity and he uses Fox mostly.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Jeeeeeeeeez. Pikachu that low...?

 

[Rizen]

Go Link!
Yeah it's weird seeing Pika so low.

 

[Life]

So how do we get ESAM to Japan?

And Sonic isn't LT? dat 2009 metagame

 

[TheReflexWonder]

ESAM is a rich kid (or he should be from all the tournaments he places at). Send me to Japan. PT being that low is a greater disservice.

 

[infiniteV115]

It's amazing how radically different their tier list is from ours.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Aww yeah japan zss over marth 8-) Like where they have Fox a lot.

I can't agree with where they have Pikachu, or where they have Pit. I get that Pit is workable and functional with a good recovery but... ehhhhh. I thinK Japan is also the only region to have ever had a truly successful Pit player, it's just weird to me.´

I also (can't believe I'm going to say this) agree with ROB in high tier.

 

[Myollnir]

I like this tier list until the C Tier (except of course).

I seriously don't understand the mid/low tiers though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I tend to ... skim over the lower parts of the tier lists myself because at that point, their strengths and weaknesses become difficult to truly qualify on the same level we can analyze mid tier and up. First of all, those characters are just played less, and less popular. Is it really even possible to tell how much better Jigglypuff is than Ganon (if she is at all) when they both do pretty poorly? lol

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I tend to ... skim over the lower parts of the tier lists myself because at that point, their strengths and weaknesses become difficult to truly qualify on the same level we can analyze mid tier and up. First of all, those characters are just played less, and less popular. Is it really even possible to tell how much better Jigglypuff is than Ganon (if she is at all) when they both do pretty poorly? lol

BUT POKEMON TRAINER

Maybe the US really is just bad. :o

 

[SoulPech]

Puff on the very bottom T_T
Also, I don't see individual placed Zelda and Sheik

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Lol, Pikachu and Lucas right next to each other on the tier list. Only in Japan.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I thinK Japan is also the only region to have ever had a truly successful Pit player, it's just weird to me.

Then again, when you look at not only how consistently Pit places well but also the records of Earth and Masashi it's kind of hard to argue that they are wrong in placing Pit rather high on the tier list.

 

[Doc King]

Killing at around 150% is worse than Peach's killing options most of the time. Damn Lucas is bad.

I give you a little more respect for saying Lucas is bad.

Not really. Lucas can actually kill at earlier percents with a good read, Peach can't unless she lands her extremely situational usmash.

Not really, unless if the player was ******** enough to run into an up smash.

Lucas' pivot grab is not useless on this MU, is nothing compared to Yoshi's,but can be used in some situations.

Also,without DI,Dthrow kills Yoshi at 150%,maybe it needs a little more % on PS1 because of the height of that stage.

It's still pretty risky and can be punished.

I don't get why you think Yoshi can Gimp Lucas, but the rest of thing you have 100% correct in what Yoshi has on Lucas. *The Dtilt yes, Dsmash I'm not too sure about because that has never been brought up as 100%*

Yoshi actually has good edge guarding against Lucas like many others because Yoshi can throw eggs to punish the pk thunder.

Lol, Pikachu and Lucas right next to each other on the tier list. Only in Japan.

Mekos should move to Japan.

I'm gonna mention something but I still think that Lucas is a low tier in America because outside of Mekos winning a couple of tournaments, Lucas has been hardly winning or placing in any tournament. I've seen other mid tiers like Luigi, Ness, and DK place pretty well or decent in tournaments, but Lucas hasn't done near as much as they did. Even low tier events Lucas doesn't place.

In doubles Lucas is alright but doubles doesn't really count for the tier list.

 

[Judo777]

Aww yeah japan zss over marth 8-) Like where they have Fox a lot.

I can't agree with where they have Pikachu, or where they have Pit. I get that Pit is workable and functional with a good recovery but... ehhhhh. I thinK Japan is also the only region to have ever had a truly successful Pit player, it's just weird to me.´

I also (can't believe I'm going to say this) agree with ROB in high tier.

If Mk is not in the game Rob is REALLY solid.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lol plz, put Yoshi that low. I want my free low tier money.

 

[infiniteV115]

At least they recognize how bad Luigi is :D

 

[Doc King]

Lol plz, put Yoshi that low. I want my free low tier money.

This actually made me laugh.

At least they recognize how bad Luigi is :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re-63u5b40A

I can't believe that Dedede is actually above Wario now. Now Dedede doesn't have any dumb solid counters against ppl above him anymore.

 

[Lukingordex]

It's still pretty risky and can be punished.

Lucas' pivot grab is not that slow,if he uses it and miss,he has time to don't get punished.

The only way that I can see Yoshi punishing Lucas because of that,is if he is not very far from Lucas and do a Dash Grab/Pivot Grab,other than that I can't see Lucas being punished for it.

 

[Doc King]

Lucas' pivot grab is not that slow,if he uses it and miss,he has time to don't get punished.

The only way that I can see Yoshi punishing Lucas because of that,is if he is not very far from Lucas and do a Dash Grab/Pivot Grab,other than that I can't see Lucas being punished for that.

Maybe not that slow. But still for normal grabs kind of slow.

Yoshi could probably also jab or down smash to punish Lucas when close to him.

 

[Lukingordex]

Jab yes,but Lucas has time to run from the Dsmash.
Also,Jab is a better option for Yoshi because of that Jab 1>Down B.

 

[Delta-cod]

Dsmash comes out very quickly, Lukin. I'd be surprised if Lucas could avoid Dsmash and not jab, to be honest.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Dsmash is a solid move, its just never going to kill anyone. Now if they kept his Melee dsmash, thats a different story.

 

[Rizen]

Jiggz relies on timing players out but in Japan that's frowned on. Their games are 10 min, no running from the opponent/stalling and time-outs mean a Sudden Death is played. So Jiggz gets the raw deal and the other Hyrule tiers who have trouble approaching and with time outs rise on the list. Zelda only being counted as Shelda helps her, of course.

I'd guess a lot of influence is character popularity in Japan. Here several characters won n0 $
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=317124
because almost no one serious uses them.
/my explanation for certain placings.

 

[#HBC | J]

Not really, unless if the player was ******** enough to run into an up smash.

No...Lucas has other reliable kill moves unlike Peach.

Yoshi actually has good edge guarding against Lucas like many others because Yoshi can throw eggs to punish the pk thunder.

Lucas has 3 other recoveries besides PKT plus a good double jump, and to be honest Yoshi does not have good edge guarding techniques against Lucas, unlike a character like Pikachu who has a decent attempt.

I'm gonna mention something but I still think that Lucas is a low tier in America because outside of Mekos winning a couple of tournaments, Lucas has been hardly winning or placing in any tournament. I've seen other mid tiers like Luigi, Ness, and DK place pretty well or decent in tournaments, but Lucas hasn't done near as much as they did. Even low tier events Lucas doesn't place.

FAE just did really well in not only doubles but in the Low-Mid tourny and getting top 10 in WHOBO if I have that correctly. However, there are Lucas' doing well in placing in america besides Mekos, but Mekos acheivements defintely show Lucas deserves his position in MT.

I don't get the logic of if "only one person does well with them, deffo not good." because that means PT and Ness (well to be fair, he has FOW/Shaky) are in the same boat.

In doubles Lucas is alright but doubles doesn't really count for the tier list.

Lucas is more than alright in doubles, but this is just getting nit-picky on my part because of research and results to support Lucas being a really good doubles partner regardless who he pairs with, it's just better with someone who can heal him.

Maybe not that slow. But still for normal grabs kind of slow.

His pivot grab is really good and not that slow at all.

Dsmash comes out very quickly, Lukin. I'd be surprised if Lucas could avoid Dsmash and not jab, to be honest.

I'll be figuring this out once I get Yoshi's frame-data and see if it's 100% or not. My bet's on not, but at least you guys still have Fsmash/Usmash.

 

[Seagull Joe]

is too low, but there are 0 in Japan so this is no surprise for his tier position. Mekos has never won a tourney either. And always wins LT tournies even though there are relatively none.