Official BBR Tier List v7

[Espy Rose]

Sorry, I should probably elaborate.
Can Dedede change the distance he travels during his Wolf chaingrab WHILE it's happening? As in, is he able to chaingrab him by abusing the timing of the grab to position himself specifically to set up the ledge infinite?

The only way this would be possible is if the chaingrab on Wolf was easy to manipulate by timing the dash + grab portion of it.

Either way, DE pretty much summed up the awful practicality of the whole thing, but I just asked out of curiosity anyways. It'd be hilarious to set up.

 

[-LzR-]

I think if DDD does a dashgrab he will slide a bit and if he does a skid canceled or a shield canceled grab he doesn't slide as much so yes he can control it. I'm just not sure if those work on Wolf.

 

[Cassio]

But he's exactly right. The fact that you have a zero to death is bad, but Diddy and ICs have that on everyone. Most everyone has that on ROB. The reason that D3 has +4s is because his grab is extremely easy to land of many of the other characters only options.

The MU is so bad no one even bothers with it. In that case, a stronger argument for -3 can be made since the 0-death adds a new level of bad. Which is why i specified by saying when the 0-death is taken into consideration.

But feel free to correct me, if youre familiar with the MU then let me know what options falcon has that allows him to build a lead or make a commitment that wont get him grabbed. Ill gladly amend my opinion with an intelligent response. As a guide, heres a list of pikachus other -3's and a brief idea of why theyre listed as such. I'll remove wolf since thats fairly controversial.

- Pretty good projectile, decent combos on pika, grab release to kill if she nets a grab at his kill percent

- gets CG'd to loledgeguarded, becomes extremely limited if pika just decides to camp him. But hits powerfully and can kill pika pretty early. No true 0-death.

- Pretty bad MU, but he still has a strong projectile, decent combos, and is able to kill pika pretty early.

- His best tool is a tool every other -3 has and most can do better at, platform camping. He struggles to combo and kill pika, and one of his better assets, his high living percent, is strongly negated by a 0-death. Pikas small size is a bigger hassle to him than even pikas other -3's, and on top of everything pika can still just camp him well enough compared to shiek and fox if he even needs to.

 

[Doc King]

dk ddd without the infinite and small step is probably only -3, maybe even -2.

I couldn't see it as a -3, but I could see it as a -2.

DK has decent tools against Dedede like his edge guarding.

What? Read what he posted. It's without the infinite or small step. So he doesn't need just one grab.

DKs downB > everything Dedede has grounded except sideB. Aerial Dedede sucks vs DK. DK also ***** Dededes recovery really easily if he manages to get a grab himself (he can cargo dtoss D3 offstage then start edgeguarding). Dedede is even easier to edgeguard than Snake lol.

Doesn't Dedede edge guard just as well as DK? Dedede isn't easier to edge guard than Snake.

Plus Dedede can actually camp DK with his projectiles which many characters D3 can't camp as well. Also couldn't D3 punish DK's down b with dair or swallow?

Dedede will still have bull**** on DK like chaingrab doing a lot of damage and followups like d tilt, jab, and bair.

With out infinites and sidestep it's -2.

 

[Judo777]

The MU is so bad no one even bothers with it. In that case, a stronger argument for -3 can be made since the 0-death adds a new level of bad. Which is why i specified by saying when the 0-death is taken into consideration.

But feel free to correct me, if youre familiar with the MU then let me know what options falcon has that allows him to build a lead or make a commitment that wont get him grabbed. Ill gladly amend my opinion with an intelligent response. As a guide, heres a list of pikachus other -3's and a brief idea of why theyre listed as such. I'll remove wolf since thats fairly controversial.

- Pretty good projectile, decent combos on pika, grab release to kill if she nets a grab at his kill percent

- gets CG'd to loledgeguarded, becomes extremely limited if pika just decides to camp him. But hits powerfully and can kill pika pretty early. No true 0-death.

- Pretty bad MU, but he still has a strong projectile, decent combos, and is able to kill pika pretty early.

- His best tool is a tool every other -3 has and most can do better at, platform camping. He struggles to combo and kill pika, and one of his better assets, his high living percent, is strongly negated by a 0-death. Pikas small size is a bigger hassle to him than even pikas other -3's, and on top of everything pika can still just camp him well enough compared to shiek and fox if he even needs to.

How does Falcon get 0-deathed? Cause Sheik doesnt even get 0-deathed and she dies like 40% early (which btw is the main reason its so bad, after the CG my stock is completely over even if i avoid the thunder. One more hit and im done for. Falcon is heavy tho. Also the main thing the other 3 dont have that falcon does is airspeed. Probably the most important trait in a not getting grabbed situation. Sheik, fox and ganon have garbage airspeed and can get floor trapped effortlessly which is why one reason why its rough for them.

 

[Cassio]

I agree. Without the 0-death falcon can be pretty stubborn to kill, which is why its existence hurts him more than sheik. This 0-death on wolf also works on falcon, sheik, and fox.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb6azuicDSw&list=PLB5582A2D5F8B67D5&index=3&feature=plpp_video

I was thinking about how falcons airspeed compared to the others as well, but I still find his aerial game to be less threatening. Im pretty sure this is due to pikas size, Falcons aerials dont hit too low to the ground and the others have a few that do. He has his bair which is kinda ok, but still worse than what others have. Fox has some trouble in this area too, but I still think falcon's issues here are greater.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Okay, I'll play. Let me get off work so I can post more than one-liners. Be around in a couple hours.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Sorry, I should probably elaborate.
Can Dedede change the distance he travels during his Wolf chaingrab WHILE it's happening? As in, is he able to chaingrab him by abusing the timing of the grab to position himself specifically to set up the ledge infinite?

The only way this would be possible is if the chaingrab on Wolf was easy to manipulate by timing the dash + grab portion of it.

Either way, DE pretty much summed up the awful practicality of the whole thing, but I just asked out of curiosity anyways. It'd be hilarious to set up.

I don't know. No has tried to change the cg vs me. They usually just Dthrow to the edge and then Dtilt me.

I think if DDD does a dashgrab he will slide a bit and if he does a skid canceled or a shield canceled grab he doesn't slide as much so yes he can control it. I'm just not sure if those work on Wolf.

He could do either, but the skid cancel just does more damage. It doesn't give a ton of control to where will end up cg'd too either offstage or to the edge.

 

[Luigi player]

Can Dedede micromanage his spacing during the dthrow chaingrab across stage to actually set up the ledge infinite?

Pretty sure he can, although it's just very little... (he can just do a running grab which moves him further or do a well timed shieldgrab to stop moving (which also prolongs the chaingrab on the stage)).

I read what he said about the small step. He still takes a respectable amount of damage off of one grab. You also must consider wall infinites as a possibility with counter pick maps such as Delfino.

Ok, don't say "all he needs is just one grab" then. And yeah, DK get's quite a bit of damage and DK can ban Delfino?! Also correct me if I'm wrong, but Will beat Dededes like Atomsk or CO18 on Delfino too... it can't be that bad, but D3 probably has an advantage there considering that one walk off part with no platforms.... (although I guess DK could downB all the time to be pretty safe lol...)

A good DDD will never use Up+b period. We know it is easily punishable, but your assuming in a competitive environment a DDD would have to use his Up+b every time hes off stage. This is untrue as DDD has multiple jumps you have to consider into him recovering.

I'm not even considering his upB. His upB is actually harder to punish than anything else he can do. Dedede moves really slowly horizontally in the air and his jumps aren't high or anything. Even an airdodge won't help him against DKs bair or dair or fair or whatever else he wants to do..... Dedede is never safe since if he recovers high he's so much bair bait and if he recovers low he risks having to use upB which can also be punished (it's not that easy to react to if he cancels it to the ledge, but if DK get's the read it's a big punish). Double jumps don't help because Dedede barely moves ANYWHERE so it's just really really easy to dair him. Or bair if he comes back at ~stageheight.

It might sound like I'm exaggerating a little bit but most of the time DK should get in quite a few hits if Dedede is offstage to compensate for the chaingrab Dedede has. And maybe he even gets a gimp...

DDD off stage and snake off stage are two very different things entirely. DDD has a easier time getting back with his jumps. A smart opponent would need to get solid reads on what DDD tries to do to get back and force him to up+b. DDD does not simply become 'free' as soon as hes off stage.

Yes, they are different, but they both suck which is what I compared lol.
Dedede can barely move anywhere while Snake can either get ***** or recover high quickly which makes it more difficult to follow/react to what he does. Snake does have a few options but all of them are really risky.

I couldn't see it as a -3, but I could see it as a -2.

DK has decent tools against Dedede like his edge guarding.


Doesn't Dedede edge guard just as well as DK? Dedede isn't easier to edge guard than Snake.

Sorry, but yes he is. Because of the points above. He isn't as much a sitting duck because of more jumps and he can even use aerials, but he's so stationary that even with his aerials it's easy to hit him...

Plus Dedede can actually camp DK with his projectiles which many characters D3 can't camp as well. Also couldn't D3 punish DK's down b with dair or swallow?

Of course Dedede can punish DKs downB. I never said he couldn't. I only said DownB helps against a grounded Dedede since he can't get through except with a perfectly spaced powershield to shieldgrab or sideB (or get into the air but is that fast enough? Even if it is the punish won't be anything great unless you get a gordo...).
And it is very easy to avoid Dededes projectile if DK wants to just camp. Although it can make Dededes approach a bit better if DK wants to get rid of the waddles.

Dedede will still have bull**** on DK like chaingrab doing a lot of damage and followups like d tilt, jab, and bair.

Yeah, dtilt. I wouldn't say jab or bair are noteable since for bair you need to outplay the recovery for it to hit and jab is... who cares about getting hit by that unless you DI into Dedede?

 

[Judo777]

No one can perform that 0-death that works on Falcon, btw as you said it works on all the ffers. Like its not realitically a stock when you are grabbed. And without it Falcon has a much better shot in the not getting wrecked by CG as badly by being both harder to grab than say Sheik, and if they can't do it (which is likely) he wont die til long after the CG unlike Sheik whos stock is basically over after the CG.

Also in my experience Delfino isn't even that terrible for DK vs D3 (btw DK os good everywhere. He has no bad stages, and the best stage ability bar MK). I think DK would prefer Delfino to FD.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I feel smarter every time I read a Vermanubis post. Can I subscribe to everywhere he posts?

I'm curious as to why you think Zelda is better than those three.

You should see the stuff he posts on facebook.

 

[Doc King]

Well just about anyone can edge guard D3 pretty well. Dedede is probably slightly better though because he can defend himself when edge guarding. They both get edge guarded pretty hard offstage (Like many other characters can do). Although for Dedede (And Snake but we're not talking about him), D3 can be pretty risky to get offstage and D3 can force the lead on DK due to the lack of projectiles. DK looks like a character that has trouble even against the simplest projectiles since his dodges suck and he's so large. His cargo throw is also pretty risky and a bad OOS option, while D3's grab is a great OOS.

Down B won't be much of a problem because D3 can just throw projectiles to punish them and play campy to avoid DK's powerful attacks.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Also in my experience Delfino isn't even that terrible for DK vs D3 (btw DK os good everywhere. He has no bad stages, and the best stage ability bar MK). I think DK would prefer Delfino to FD.

One of my favorite things about Delfino as DK is grabbing a careless opponent while close to one of the walk-off blast zones and cargo Dthrowing them. It guarantees a stock. Of course, I do stress the term "careless", as most smart players will more often than not never fall for such a thing.

You should see the stuff he posts on facebook.

His philosophical views on something like a video game (Smash Bros., in this case) is already great enough, so it stands to reason his thoughts and views on life would be even greater.

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. Well just about anyone can edge guard D3 pretty well. 2. Dedede is probably slightly better though because he can defend himself when edge guarding. 3. They both get edge guarded pretty hard offstage (Like many other characters can do). 4. Although for Dedede (And Snake but we're not talking about him), D3 can be pretty risky to get offstage 5. and D3 can force the lead on DK due to the lack of projectiles. 6. DK looks like a character that has trouble even against the simplest projectiles since his dodges suck and he's so large. 7. His cargo throw is also pretty risky and a bad OOS option, while D3's grab is a great OOS.

8. Down B won't be much of a problem because D3 can just throw projectiles to punish them and play campy to avoid DK's powerful attacks.

out of the 8 points you attempt to make in this post, 5 of them are wrong. the only ones that are right are the first three, which are the broadest and most general statements.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Sorry, I should probably elaborate.
Can Dedede change the distance he travels during his Wolf chaingrab WHILE it's happening? As in, is he able to chaingrab him by abusing the timing of the grab to position himself specifically to set up the ledge infinite?

The only way this would be possible is if the chaingrab on Wolf was easy to manipulate by timing the dash + grab portion of it.

Either way, DE pretty much summed up the awful practicality of the whole thing, but I just asked out of curiosity anyways. It'd be hilarious to set up.

There's Skid Cancel, which would allow DDD not to slide when CG'ing, also, an insta-Downthrow is shorter than a pummeled one, so I guess it could be possible... Never really tried (never faced a good Wolf).

 

[Espy Rose]

There's Skid Cancel, which would allow DDD not to slide when CG'ing, also, an insta-Downthrow is shorter than a pummeled one, so I guess it could be possible... Never really tried (never faced a good Wolf).

I'd think it would've been attempted before. I'd definitely think it'd be handy vs. a character who can be as fast in the air as Wolf can be.

Them Dedede's be lazy.

 

[da K.I.D.]

If I mained DDD I probably would have perfected that by now. Because the difference in distance between a shield cancel grab out of a down throw, and a running grab when you wait until they finish sliding to down throw is pretty vast.

thats something ive noticed alot over the years. people learn one gimmick to win a matchup, and decide that since they have that one thing that they dont need to bother learning the matchup anymore. while the character on the losing end of said gimmick/mechanic, those mains tend to go in the lab and figure out every single thing about that matchup, which leads to pikachus and shieks losing to foxs and ddds losing to dks.

 

[Ishiey]

Sorry, I should probably elaborate.
Can Dedede change the distance he travels during his Wolf chaingrab WHILE it's happening? As in, is he able to chaingrab him by abusing the timing of the grab to position himself specifically to set up the ledge infinite?

The only way this would be possible is if the chaingrab on Wolf was easy to manipulate by timing the dash + grab portion of it.

Either way, DE pretty much summed up the awful practicality of the whole thing, but I just asked out of curiosity anyways. It'd be hilarious to set up.

D3 can smallstep CG Wolf. So, he can do that to the ledge, and then ledge infinite once the spacing is right, into dtilt at 300% (stalling rule) for a 0-death.

Good thing nobody bothers to learn how to do the smallstep CG


But really, if people knew how to do it, ****.

 

[Doc King]

If I mained DDD I probably would have perfected that by now. Because the difference in distance between a shield cancel grab out of a down throw, and a running grab when you wait until they finish sliding to down throw is pretty vast.

thats something ive noticed alot over the years. people learn one gimmick to win a matchup, and decide that since they have that one thing that they dont need to bother learning the matchup anymore. while the character on the losing end of said gimmick/mechanic, those mains tend to go in the lab and figure out every single thing about that matchup, which leads to pikachus and shieks losing to foxs and ddds losing to dks.

Welcome to Brawl!

 

[Claire Diviner]

thats something ive noticed alot over the years. people learn one gimmick to win a matchup, and decide that since they have that one thing that they dont need to bother learning the matchup anymore. while the character on the losing end of said gimmick/mechanic, those mains tend to go in the lab and figure out every single thing about that matchup, which leads to pikachus and shieks losing to foxs and ddds losing to dks.

This is why the metagame's always changing as is the tier list. Though still, even though DKs are finding more ways to fight Dedede, I doubt their MU will be any better by design.

 

[infiniteV115]

This place is dead, yo.
When's the next tier list comin' out, yo?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I acutally like this one place being dead, as in, nobody really cares about it anymore, or every thing that needs to be revised has already been told (like the term "Borderline", GaW being Mid Tier, Sheilda/DK/Luigi/Lucas's position, etc).

 

[Jrugs]

This place is dead, yo.
When's the next tier list comin' out, yo?

well we could ban some random characters every month and see what happens, that might spice things up. I wanna see how far wolf makes it without d3 or how far peach can make it without snake or marth.

 

[-LzR-]

Peach doesn't lose to Marth.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Peach doesn't lose to Marth.

She loses like -2...

 

[-LzR-]

Some ppl saythat, some say it's even. Who to trust?

 

[Vermanubis]

Well, I think just a preliminary look at the fundamentals of the MU tell us that she loses. Her only frontal zoning option is her FAir, which Marth can handle with ease. He's just too good in the air for Peach to have the upper hand.

 

[DMG]

Marth has ALWAYS beaten Peach. Always.

 

[-LzR-]

Then why do Peaches have so many different opinions on this MU? Why does Marth beat Peach?

 

[infiniteV115]

You're the first person I've known of that said Marth doesn't beat Peach.

The Peaches may disagree on how BAD the MU is but AFAIK they all agree that Marth beats her. People tend to disagree on things you know. I've seen the ZSS' opinions on the Falco MU range from even to -3 for ZSS, but that doesn't mean that Falco doesn't beat her XD

Same goes for Ness vs MK.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

peach mains cry at ignorance. illmatic is the most salty. he is like 1-100000 vs nike

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean, Peach mains think they beat Wario, too--That doesn't make them correct.

 

[Luigi player]

Marth has ALWAYS beaten Peach. Always.

Leon has beaten mr r with peach.

 

[Vermanubis]

I think he means that the MU has always been in his favor, not that a Marth has never lost to a Peach.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Still though, it seems to be a stretch to call it +2 for Marth. Peaches have always gone way too close to beat Marth [or actually pulled it off at times] to have it as more than +1 imo. +2 is what people label the match-ups of Falco and Snake against Peach and they definitely beat her worse than Marth does.

 

[-LzR-]

No, I wasn't saying Peach beats Marth. I was just saying that Marth isn't some kind of a counter. Snake, Falco and MK are the tough ones, not Marth. And a -/+1 is still pretty much even in practical situations.

 

[Luco]

This place is dead, yo.
When's the next tier list comin' out, yo?

I'm eager to see what the backroom will release for next tier list, whether our discussions have influenced the chart.

Probably not but it'll still be nice to see.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

No, I wasn't saying Peach beats Marth. I was just saying that Marth isn't some kind of a counter. Snake, Falco and MK are the tough ones, not Marth. And a -/+1 is still pretty much even in practical situations.

^ This.

10char

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

I mean, Peach mains think they beat Wario, too--That doesn't make them correct.

Still though, it seems to be a stretch to call it +2 for Marth. Peaches have always gone way too close to beat Marth [or actually pulled it off at times] to have it as more than +1 imo. +2 is what people label the match-ups of Falco and Snake against Peach and they definitely beat her worse than Marth does.

No, I wasn't saying Peach beats Marth. I was just saying that Marth isn't some kind of a counter. Snake, Falco and MK are the tough ones, not Marth. And a -/+1 is still pretty much even in practical situations.

the three most ignorant and stupid posts ever made in smashboards aren't even 2 pages away from each other. yall must really suck and know nothing if that's what you think. peach does beat wario, it's so obviously in her favor. i though you were the smart wario.

the other 2 i can't hate on because after reading those posts i think they may be mentally handicapped. we should tell them they're right to make them feel good but ignore their posts forever.



















































































seriously yall are bad

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Whatever, dude. A lot of Wario mains think that Peach beats Wario, too, and that doesn't mean they're right, either. Just...don't approach her once you get the lead. It's not hard. It might even be relatively even, but it's not clearly in Peach's favor.

Also, disagreeing with popular opinion about a matchup that never happens in tournament play is grounds for being considered the most ignorant post? Ridiculous.