Official Official 2015 Melee Panel Tier List and Community Voted Results

Xiivi

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#1


Official 2015 Melee Tier List

Top
SS
:foxmelee:
S :falcomelee: :marthmelee: :sheikmelee:

High
A :jigglypuffmelee::peachmelee:

B :icsmelee::falconmelee:
High Mid
C
:pikachumelee::samusmelee:
Mid
D
:drmario::yoshimelee::luigimelee:
Low Mid
E
:ganondorfmelee::mariomelee::younglinkmelee::dkmelee::linkmelee:
Low
F
:gawmelee::roymelee::mewtwomelee::zeldamelee::nessmelee:
Bottom
G
:pichumelee::bowsermelee::kirbymelee:


Rank Character Rating Difference PAL Difference 2013 Difference
1 Fox 1.125 0 ±0 ±0
2 Falco 2.375 1.25 +1 ±0
3 Marth 3.041666667 0.6666666666 -1 +1
4 Sheik 3.916666667 0.8749999999 +1 -1
5 Jigglypuff 5.416666667 1.5 -1 ±0
6 Peach 5.833333333 0.4166666661 ±0 ±0
7 Ice Climbers 7.333333333 1.5 +1 +1
8 Captain Falcon 7.541666666 0.2083333331 -1 -1
9 Pikachu 9.333333333 1.791666667 +1 +1
10 Samus 10.04166667 0.7083333325 -1 +1
11 Doctor Mario 11.875 1.833333334 +1 -2
12 Yoshi 11.95833333 0.08333333333 -1 +6
13 Luigi 12.08333333 0.1249999983 ±0 ±0
14 Ganondorf 13.875 1.791666668 ±0 -2
15 Mario 15 1.1249999985 ±0 -1
16 Young Link 16.08333333 1.083333333 +2 -1
17 Donkey Kong 17.16666667 1.083333335 ±0 ±0
18 Link 17.83333333 0.6666666667 -2 -2
19 Mr. Game & Watch 20.33333333 2.500000001 ±0 +3
20 Roy 20.875 0.5416666654 +2 ±0
21 Mewtwo 21.04166667 0.1666666667 ±0 ±0
22 Zelda 21.75 0.7083333333 -2 -3
23 Ness 22.16666667 0.416666665 ±0 ±0
24 Pichu 23.875 1.708333335 +1 +1
25 Bowser 23.95833333 0.08333333333 -1 -1
26 Kirby 25.16666667 1.208333333 ±0 ±0

Votes from 24 top players were taken from players who were in the Top 40 of either the Smashboards or MeleeItOnMe rankings in early 2015. Standard rulesets were taken into account and top level tournament play was considered. Voters submitted their lists in order from 1 to 26.

Smashboards would like to thank all those who participated as well as the MeleeItOnMe team for assisting in the creation of this list.

List of voters:
  1. @ssbbFICTION
  2. @TheZhuKeeper
  3. @Nintendude
  4. @hungrybox
  5. @Shroomed
  6. @aMSa
  7. @Mew2King
  8. @DEHF
  9. @chillindude829
  10. @Cia
  11. @HugS™
  12. @Eddy 007
  13. @MacD
  14. @S0FT
  15. @Col Bol
  16. @AXE 09
  17. @TSM ZeRo
  18. @zDuck
  19. @ChuDat
  20. @SFAT
  21. @DJ Nintendo
  22. @WestBallz
  23. @KirbyKaze
  24. @s2j
Links to individual votes upcoming.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2015 Community Voted Panel Tier List


SS: :foxmelee:
S: :falcomelee: :marthmelee: :sheikmelee:
A: :jigglypuffmelee: :peachmelee: :falconmelee: :icsmelee:
B: :samusmelee: :pikachumelee:
C: :luigimelee: :yoshimelee: :drmario: :ganondorfmelee:
D: :mariomelee: :younglinkmelee: :linkmelee: :dkmelee:
E: :gawmelee: :roymelee: :mewtwomelee: :zeldamelee:
F: :pichumelee: :nessmelee: :bowsermelee: :kirbymelee:

In order to increase the sample size to a reasonable amount, the original criteria of top 200 smashboards was increased to top 1000. Exceptions were also made in the case of certain known players. In the end, this provided us with 60 votes.

Panel Voters: -Sinister-, $mike, AP Renekton, Askeflink, AustinRC, Bench, BHawksFan01, blazerer, bolt., CaptainZack, cemo, ChivalRuse, Clue, Coastward, Cob, CocoThunder, Ddwar, DerfMidWest, EddyBearr, edgeluca, Equal, Falco Lamborghini, Genghis_Connor, Kaffei, Krisp!, Kyari, Laudandus, LSDX, Max?, Metà, NotKain, Onisser, Parzival, pdub, PetteH, PK Fang, RiK 22, roboticphish, s2j, Sharpman767, Sickolas, SillyGoose, SleepyK, slypig, Sveet, Swegolas, Tafokints, TheCrimsonBlur, tm, Upke, Viperboy_74, Xiivi, x WaNtEd x, Ya Boy GP, yamham63, Yeroc, zduck, Zerix, Zonak, Zorgo





Mean - the average vote for that character
Variance (σ^2) - the spread of the votes
Difference (Average) - the difference between the mean of that character and the character above it.
Combined Variance - the sum of the variance of that character and the character above it.
P(Lower > Higher) - the probability that the character voted lower should actually be higher.

SS: :foxmelee:
S: :falcomelee: :marthmelee: :sheikmelee:
A: :jigglypuffmelee: :peachmelee: :falconmelee: :icsmelee:
B: :pikachumelee: :samusmelee:
C: :luigimelee: :yoshimelee: :drmario: :ganondorfmelee:
D: :mariomelee: :younglinkmelee: :linkmelee: :dkmelee:
E: :gawmelee: :roymelee: :mewtwomelee: :nessmelee: :zeldamelee:
F: :pichumelee: :bowsermelee: :kirbymelee:

 
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Joined
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Psychotic_Forces
#7
I can't really argue that much with the positioning on this list, but I don't feel that Fox is THAT much better than Falco that he needs his own tier. I mean, Falco doesn't have any losing matchups either. Still, excellent list.
 

1MachGO

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#10
Curious that Fox is in his own tier. I am looking forward to seeing the submissions and learning if the divisions are based off numerical averaging or the perceived viability given by the submitters.
 

Mariofan2468

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#12
To be honest, I respect the opinions behind how Pichu is placed where he is but I honestly disagree with him not being last place personally.
 
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Lord Horatio

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#13
Falco is better than Fox; his projectile has more impact and his side special is better for starters. Nut even if Fox is indeed better, I would have to see some extraordinarily convincing evidence and arguments that he's by far and always better than Falco enough to warrant his own tier. Also Ganondorf is viable, put him back in mid.
 

Flippy Flippersen

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Messages
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#14
Falco is better than Fox; his projectile has more impact and his side special is better for starters. Nut even if Fox is indeed better, I would have to see some extraordinarily convincing evidence and arguments that he's by far and always better than Falco enough to warrant his own tier. Also Ganondorf is viable, put him back in mid.
Fox has a whopping 3 matchups that are debatable for even or even losing maybe on some stages which are himself falco and marth. Falco has that for 3 (or 4) extra matchups with fox marth peach puff sheik (samus???) and of course himself. Fox vs Falco is too even to decide which is better purely on the head to head and Fox simply has a more favorable matchup chart. He wins more matchups and he wins them harder.

As for ganondorf being viable. I personally disagree (as did these players) He has no good approach, he has no non commital options to keep his opponent from approaching, he's easy to combo and edgeguard (admittably it can take forever cause he's a lardass) he has a lackluster combogame because almost everything he has is a killmove and unlike most other low/midtiers he doesn't have random cheese factor cause he's a lot more one-dimensional and his only gimmick is hitting really hard.
 

1MachGO

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#16
Fox has a whopping 3 matchups that are debatable for even or even losing maybe on some stages which are himself falco and marth. Falco has that for 3 (or 4) extra matchups with fox marth peach puff sheik (samus???) and of course himself. Fox vs Falco is too even to decide which is better purely on the head to head and Fox simply has a more favorable matchup chart. He wins more matchups and he wins them harder.

As for ganondorf being viable. I personally disagree (as did these players) He has no good approach, he has no non commital options to keep his opponent from approaching, he's easy to combo and edgeguard (admittably it can take forever cause he's a lardass) he has a lackluster combogame because almost everything he has is a killmove and unlike most other low/midtiers he doesn't have random cheese factor cause he's a lot more one-dimensional and his only gimmick is hitting really hard.
Looking towards authority and results, I believe what you are saying about Falco to be pretty unfounded. PPMD has stated he believes Falco beats Peach and Puff. Mango has stated the same, and moreover, picked up Falco way back in the day because of his hatred towards the Falco/Puff match up. I seriously doubt either of them think Falco loses to or goes even with Samus.

And if Falco/Sheik is debatable, so is Fox/Sheik. The best sheiks have more or less caught up to the best spacies and we've seen them trade sets all of the time. IMO, these matchups are undergoing serious development thanks to tech chasing and I don't think its fair to pin it a certain way until it gets fleshed out more.

So again, the evidence that Falco has more "debatable" matchups is shaky at best. Combine that with the fact that Falco has a significantly better FD MU vs. Marth (and better answers to his movement in general) and noticeably better MUs vs characters like Falcon and most mid tiers, I think its really hard to call Fox a whole tier above Falco.
 

Flippy Flippersen

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
233
#17
Looking towards authority and results, I believe what you are saying about Falco to be pretty unfounded. PPMD has stated he believes Falco beats Peach and Puff. Mango has stated the same, and moreover, picked up Falco way back in the day because of his hatred towards the Falco/Puff match up. I seriously doubt either of them think Falco loses to or goes even with Samus.

And if Falco/Sheik is debatable, so is Fox/Sheik. The best sheiks have more or less caught up to the best spacies and we've seen them trade sets all of the time. IMO, these matchups are undergoing serious development thanks to tech chasing and I don't think its fair to pin it a certain way until it gets fleshed out more.

So again, the evidence that Falco has more "debatable" matchups is shaky at best. Combine that with the fact that Falco has a significantly better FD MU vs. Marth (and better answers to his movement in general) and noticeably better MUs vs characters like Falcon and most mid tiers, I think its really hard to call Fox a whole tier above Falco.
I'm not saying I personally believe falco loses to these characters. I'm saying it still is a debate. (or at the very least it's still a debate if it's close enough to make falco's higher technical need make up for the amount he wins with) Anyone worth their money will only give fox 3 characters including himself he goes even with. Whereas it is far more common to hear someone about falco vs peach/puff as an even ish matchup.

Since you mentioned ppmd and peach I vaguely recall a set where pp went marth vs armada on dreamland because he really wanted to avoid the peach matchup (at least there) which at least implies he believed his falco wasn't capable of dealing with that at the time. This is not a problem any fox would have. Armada also got his fox because he felt the fox matchup was something he couldn't overcome any longer. He has not yet switched off peach for any falco because he believes it's more consistent and still does the job. The only reason he goes fox against ppmd/mango is cause of the marth/fox. Their falco's he doesn't mind fighting.

I also don't agree the best sheiks go even vs the best foxes that much. They generally don't even play together. The best foxes are Armada (goes peach against any sheik player) Leffen (m2k goes marth against him plup so far only went samus against him other sheiks don't beat him Mango felt more comfortable with falco against not puff/peach for a looong time.

This all being said I do believe falco has no losing matchups like fox. I do however believe his matchups are a lot closer and as a result harder. I also moreso wanted to disagree with falco being worse than fox than I wanted to say falco is bad or anything. (he's top 3 at worst) (the samus thing was just something I think I saw somewhere on hugs twitter or something and I just put it out there in brackets cause I do think he knows his stuff related to samus but don't think other players share this idea)
 
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jespoke

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Jespoke
#18
So what exactly are the Pal difference numbers? Does it put Falco even with Fox, or 0,25 below him, or what?
 
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GoldMasterSword
#19
So what exactly are the Pal difference numbers? Does it put Falco even with Fox, or 0,25 below him, or what?
It's just the difference in placing from the PAL tier list. So for Marth, he is actually 2nd on the PAL tier list, but here, he is 3rd. Therefore, the difference between 2015 NTSC and PAL is -1.

I'm actually surprised that the vote ultimately put Dr. Mario over Luigi. I understand ICs over Falcon, but I don't think Doc is better than Luigi or Yoshi.
 
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pagedMov

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#20
In my opinion, Fox really did not need his own tier. Him being in 'SS' tier implies that he is far and away better than every character below him,
even though he has even matchups with two characters in the tier below him. Fox really isn't a brawl metaknight case, where he's so good that no other character comes close.
 

Diosama

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#21
This is a great list, albeit Ganon's placement makes me sad. With regards to Fox and Falco, while I do feel as though Falco wins the mu, Fox simply does better against the rest of the cast, earning him the #1 spot. As far as Fox being SS tier, it seems 20XX is closing in.

EDIT: Also really proud of Yoshi's development. aMSa put in a lot of work, and it's amazing to see such vast improvements.
 
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DeepDish

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#24
Thank you @Sveet for opening up to an idea of a new tier list, and to everyone who worked on the tier list. This one actually uses data to separate the tiers this time around rather than having a subjective "viable" tier for the group of tournament viable characters, then somewhat viable, non-viable, etc.

Everyone complaining that ____ character should be in __ tier, you need to understand that tiers are determined by a character's average ranking, not because a few people think a specific tier should be cut off between ____ and ____ characters. Obviously not everyone put Fox ranked as #1 on their tier list either. He received an average rating of 1.125, not 1.0, but there is a significant average rating gap between him and Falco, hence being in SS tier alone.
 
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Pabmyster

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#26
I personally disagree with Doc being higher than Luigi or Yoshi, but the rest seems fairly on point. Maybe Ganon on the bottom of Mid, but that's just nitpicking. Glad to finally have an updated tier list though!
 

Diosama

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#27
I personally disagree with Doc being higher than Luigi or Yoshi, but the rest seems fairly on point. Maybe Ganon on the bottom of Mid, but that's just nitpicking. Glad to finally have an updated tier list though!
Naturally, I disagree with your statement regarding Ganondorf. Would you care to explain? 20GT would like to know what it can fix about Ganon
 

LeadRod

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#29
I LOVE g&w but I don't think he should be put ahead MewTwo as the head of low tier. 2nd for sure but not 1st. (Sorry Qerb </3)
 

Pabmyster

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#31
Naturally, I disagree with your statement regarding Ganondorf. Would you care to explain? 20GT would like to know what it can fix about Ganon
I don't know if that's a sardonic tone, considering it's in text, but based on results, you see more noteworthy Ganons than you do Docs, especially after Shroomed switched. I think Luigi and Yoshi are better than Doc and Ganon, but I honestly don't see how Ganon is that much lower than Doc if we're going off of recent results. Rather, I could see it only based on Shroomed's past performances and how he could compete at top levels. At this point, there are no high level Doc players besides Shroomed at the foundry when he's drinking or when he's unconfident in a matchup (which he also has Marth for) and both Ganon and Doc suffer ****ty matchups against Sheik among other high tiers. Neither character has much room for innovation, but who knows with Melee. What I'm getting at is Ganon and Doc are both bad, but I don't think it's fair to compare a single Doc from 2013 with Luigi or Yoshi nowadays, and I don't think Ganondorf, is significantly worse than Doc. They have all have been getting some results and top 32 to top 8 finishes at Majors, compared to a stagnant character in Doc.

I still think Doc is better and has more potential than Ganon, but they belong in the same tier if we're talking recent results and usage.

I'm definitely not as qualified as the players who made this, but then again it's based on a voting system which is all formed from opinions. People like Eddy Mexico, Abate, Kage, n0ne, amsa, and the other up and coming and high level Ganons/Yoshis/Luigis are active and entering tourneys, as well as getting results. It makes me scratch my head when Shroomed in 2013/early 2014 (nearly 2 years ago since he mained him, mind you) is that much of an outlier compared to the rest of the doc mains, yet still has a significant impact on Doc's placement so much so to push him above more active characters. Don't get me wrong, he has AMAZING placements, but I think Ganon and Doc are more comparative than this tier list can portray. My 2 cents :confused:
 

Diosama

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#32
I don't know if that's a sardonic tone, considering it's in text, but based on results, you see more noteworthy Ganons than you do Docs, especially after Shroomed switched. I think Luigi and Yoshi are better than Doc and Ganon, but I honestly don't see how Ganon is that much lower than Doc if we're going off of recent results. Rather, I could see it only based on Shroomed's past performances and how he could compete at top levels. At this point, there are no high level Doc players besides Shroomed at the foundry when he's drinking or when he's unconfident in a matchup (which he also has Marth for) and both Ganon and Doc suffer ****ty matchups against Sheik among other high tiers. Neither character has much room for innovation, but who knows with Melee. What I'm getting at is Ganon and Doc are both bad, but I don't think it's fair to compare a single Doc from 2013 with Luigi or Yoshi nowadays, and I don't think Ganondorf, is significantly worse than Doc. They have all have been getting some results and top 32 to top 8 finishes at Majors, compared to a stagnant character in Doc.

I still think Doc is better and has more potential than Ganon, but they belong in the same tier if we're talking recent results and usage.

I'm definitely not as qualified as the players who made this, but then again it's based on a voting system which is all formed from opinions. People like Eddy Mexico, Abate, Kage, n0ne, amsa, and the other up and coming and high level Ganons/Yoshis/Luigis are active and entering tourneys, as well as getting results. It makes me scratch my head when Shroomed in 2013/early 2014 (nearly 2 years ago since he mained him, mind you) is that much of an outlier compared to the rest of the doc mains, yet still has a significant impact on Doc's placement so much so to push him above more active characters. Don't get me wrong, he has AMAZING placements, but I think Ganon and Doc are more comparative than this tier list can portray. My 2 cents :confused:
Ganon'S high tier matchups are not as one sided as you might think. Marth is considered even, while Puff, Peach and Falcon have slight advantages. Sheik does **** on Ganon pretty hard considering 1 grab can lead to death, but same goes the other way around. Spacies are still tough but with enough practice, we'll be perfect cging them everytime. Ganon has dropped recently due to his lack of proper representation, just as Doc has, but his MUs remain widly unchanged, and do not warrant the position you deem him.

Edit: oh **** my b. I misread and thought you wanted Ganon placed at the bottom of low mid.
 
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-ACE-

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#33
The tier list always seems like an arbitrary mixture between results and super theory bros. The point about doc is a good one, and just 5 years ago falco was winning everything while fox stayed #1. Good list overall though. I'm a little surprised Ganon didn't have more of a lock on the 13th spot vote wise. The community voted tier list is likely more accurate imo. But still a good list

Also Marth Ganon is in marth's favor, it's just not a landslide. Falcon is tough too. But yeah overall his mu's aren't that bad.
 
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Diosama

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#34
The tier list always seems like an arbitrary mixture between results and super theory bros. The point about doc is a good one, and just 5 years ago falco was winning everything while fox stayed #1. Good list overall though. I'm a little surprised Ganon didn't have more of a lock on the 13th spot vote wise. The community voted tier list is likely more accurate imo. But still a good list

Also Marth Ganon is in marth's favor, it's just not a landslide. Falcon is tough too. But yeah overall his mu's aren't that bad.
Is that so? Well, I'll trust the expert on this one.
 

Diosama

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#36
Yeah falcon mu is really tough at top level. It's the neutral game advantage and the easy follow-ups for falcon.
I was referring to Marth, of course I was somewhat basing my opinion off dated info. Anyways, this conversation would be more pertinent on the Ganon boards
 

Pabmyster

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#37
Ganon'S high tier matchups are not as one sided as you might think. Marth is considered even, while Puff, Peach and Falcon have slight advantages. Sheik does **** on Ganon pretty hard considering 1 grab can lead to death, but same goes the other way around. Spacies are still tough but with enough practice, we'll be perfect cging them everytime. Ganon has dropped recently due to his lack of proper representation, just as Doc has, but his MUs remain widly unchanged, and do not warrant the position you deem him.

Edit: oh **** my b. I misread and thought you wanted Ganon placed at the bottom of low mid.
Was gonna say, we're arguing the same thing here lol.

The tier list always seems like an arbitrary mixture between results and super theory bros. The point about doc is a good one, and just 5 years ago falco was winning everything while fox stayed #1. Good list overall though. I'm a little surprised Ganon didn't have more of a lock on the 13th spot vote wise. The community voted tier list is likely more accurate imo. But still a good list

Also Marth Ganon is in marth's favor, it's just not a landslide. Falcon is tough too. But yeah overall his mu's aren't that bad.
Yeah, people say Ganon is overhyped, but really I don't see how nobody has pointed out that Doc is overhyped.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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#38
I'm fine with most of this.Although, Fox doesn't need his own tier.
I agree kind of. This logic is what has Ganon in low mid (where he's obviously the best) instead of mid (where he belongs). Just because voters decide confidently that a character should be in a particular spot, doesn't mean it's by a large margin and that tier separation is necessary. People know for a fact that Fox is a LITTLE BIT better than Falco. The significance of the gap can be debated, and although many see it as small, they recognize it. So they vote accordingly (with the vast major putting fox as first) and the result makes it look like fox's general dominance over Falco is much stronger than it really is. It makes the tier separation decided solely by voting trends instead of tourney results or theory. But still, decent list. At this point it'd be hard for us to make a horrible one lol.
 
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Diddy Kong

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22,831
#39
Only changes I'd personally make are Mewtwo > Roy and Yoshi > Dr.Mario. Very solid list overall. Feels good that DK is grouped in a Tier above the likes of G&W, Mewtwo, Zelda, Roy and Ness.
 
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