Oak's Laboratory - The Mechanics and Advanced Techniques of Pokémon Trainer

[T-block]

Which are you having trouble with?

 

[StarGalaxy777]

From what other sites tell me, I have a pattern and I lack spacing and get punished alot >_>

 

[T-block]

Oh...well this is hardly the thread for that ._.

Take it to the Q+A thread imo

 

[Pokemon Trainer1]

Profiled for later viewing. Awesome guide, and the part on fatigue may not be that detailed, but great for beginners!

 

[Milo112]

pretty useful stuff

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think that wavebounced Rock Smash warrants its own spot in Charizard's ATs. It's potentially great for baiting attacks, throwing off opponents' spacing, and helping against juggles.

 

[CoonTail]

I think that wavebounced Rock Smash warrants its own spot in Charizard's ATs. It's potentially great for baiting attacks, throwing off opponents' spacing, and helping against juggles.

I agree and also believe we need to outline the different effects of wavebouncing RS. I am really bad at explaining it but when you B-reverse and it looks like the move changes direction twice, Zard's RS shards seem to explode within his own hurtbox covering the front and back of him. This is something that has needed to be looked into for a while now since you can cover your back while facing forward.

Overall though Wavebounce RS has a lot of different properties, uses, and applications so I would deffinitly agree that we need to outline that for newer users and even ourselves.

 

[krazyzyko]

Wow, very nice, clean and informative.

I tested all 3 pokemon without moving and they lasted around 1:57 before getting tired.
If you immediatly change 3 times (back to the tired pokemon) without getting KO'ed it will last around 8 secs before getting tired. To gain back full power you have to lose a stock.

You should add Peach's bob-omb to the fire list.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I tested all 3 pokemon without moving and they lasted around 1:57 before getting tired.

I imagine it's because the starting countdown counts toward fatigue. Therefore, we should try to get the 4th controller slot to minimize that.

 

[T-block]

Small update: Squirtle's jab2 doesn't contribute to fatigue, nor does any jab hit after the first for that matter. Added B-reversal Rock Smash/Flamethrower as above, as well as Tether Cancelling for Ivysaur.

Thanks to Adam in the Smash Lab for the info ^^

 

[Myollnir]

Thank you!

 

[CoonTail]

WOW! So if jab2 or jab3 does not count towards fatigue my question is does pummeling?

If not then grab release to jab got so much more useful figuring it can refresh our moveset along with not adding to fatigue beyond jab1.

 

[T-block]

well... it doesn't get THAT much more useful o.o

pummelling does not contribute to fatigue... that's been in the OP forever ^^ also added was the fact that getup attacks and ledge attacks don't count towards fatigue either.

 

[CoonTail]

Ok I didn't know if I had my info right, but I was pretty damn sure pummeling did not contribute to fatigue.

Grab release -> Jab combo gets a decent amount more useful because general knockback at mid to high %'s from the jab combo sets up a path almost directly into f-air territory.

You now can solidly chose from grab to F-throw or grab release to jab combo which can unstale your F-air along with possibly setting the F-air kill up.

Sounds pretty useful IMO.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Im a bit confused about wavebounce rocksmash. Depending on how I time it, Charizard will either turn around in mid-air and continue his forward mommentum, or turn around twice at high speed(which seems to defeat the whole purpose). Which one is a wavwbounce exactly?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Neither. If you're doing it correctly, say you're moving to the right before you do the input. Charizard's momentum should instantly shift sharply to the left, but he should still be facing the right.

It's a four-frame window, and it's not easy to do. Alternatively, you can set your C-Stick to Special and just press the C-Stick left while moving right (or switch directions if you're facing/moving left). That's much, much easier, but, as far as I can tell, it makes Hydrograbbing with Squirtle impossible to do.

 

[T-block]

Ok I didn't know if I had my info right, but I was pretty damn sure pummeling did not contribute to fatigue.

Grab release -> Jab combo gets a decent amount more useful because general knockback at mid to high %'s from the jab combo sets up a path almost directly into f-air territory.

You now can solidly chose from grab to F-throw or grab release to jab combo which can unstale your F-air along with possibly setting the F-air kill up.

Sounds pretty useful IMO.

i meant that the fact that jab2 doesn't contribute to fatigue doesn't really make me want to use grab release > jab combo much more. in any case, remember that the jab combo can still be SDI'd, and is even less effective when fatigued.

i find myself favouring the guaranteed damage and followup from f-throw and u-throw more and more lately.

Im a bit confused about wavebounce rocksmash. Depending on how I time it, Charizard will either turn around in mid-air and continue his forward mommentum, or turn around twice at high speed(which seems to defeat the whole purpose). Which one is a wavwbounce exactly?

if you're facing right while in the air, rock smash to the left and immediately tap right as fast as possible after.

i should also mention that you need to have forward momentum in the first place, otherwise there's no momentum to reverse. so charizard should be moving to the right, then shift back to the left, then start moving to the right again as he breaks the rock.

 

[CoonTail]

i meant that the fact that jab2 doesn't contribute to fatigue doesn't really make me want to use grab release > jab combo much more. in any case, remember that the jab combo can still be SDI'd, and is even less effective when fatigued.

i find myself favouring the guaranteed damage and followup from f-throw and u-throw more and more lately.

Jab combo can be SDI'd but it is easy to note whether or not the opponent is proficient in SDI'ing the jab combo. I mean I have been playing against most of NY/NJ lately and SDI'ing the jab combo correctly occurs a much smaller portion of the time then you seem to think it happens.

Not to mention at mid to high %'s F-throw does not have guarenteed follow-ups.

Neither. If you're doing it correctly, say you're moving to the right before you do the input. Charizard's momentum should instantly shift sharply to the left, but he should still be facing the right.

It's a four-frame window, and it's not easy to do. Alternatively, you can set your C-Stick to Special and just press the C-Stick left while moving right (or switch directions if you're facing/moving left). That's much, much easier, but, as far as I can tell, it makes Hydrograbbing with Squirtle impossible to do.

But Hydrograbbing with squirtle doesn't require the c-stick.....how would it become impossible?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

But Hydrograbbing with squirtle doesn't require the c-stick.....how would it become impossible?

I thought the only way to do it was to hold Shield and press C-Stick in the opposite direction you're shifting toward.

If that's not how it works, let us know so we can update the OP with an alternate explanation.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Neither. If you're doing it correctly, say you're moving to the right before you do the input. Charizard's momentum should instantly shift sharply to the left, but he should still be facing the right.

It's a four-frame window, and it's not easy to do. Alternatively, you can set your C-Stick to Special and just press the C-Stick left while moving right (or switch directions if you're facing/moving left). That's much, much easier, but, as far as I can tell, it makes Hydrograbbing with Squirtle impossible to do.

Oh thanks for clarifying. I've never really thought to WB char's rocksmash. I do it with razorleaf all the time though since it grants it more horizontal and vertical range.

One last question, I've noticed that many squirtle players don't use hydro Dsmash too often. Should I perhaps use it less.

Pardon the 10,000 questions. I'm rethinking how I currently approach my character.

 

[CoonTail]

Nope you can just hit the grab button as you finish the hydroplane motion with the analog stick, you get the same exact effect.

There is not a single hydroplane you need the c-stick for besides forward hydroplaning.

 

[T-block]

Jab combo can be SDI'd but it is easy to note whether or not the opponent is proficient in SDI'ing the jab combo. I mean I have been playing against most of NY/NJ lately and SDI'ing the jab combo correctly occurs a much smaller portion of the time then you seem to think it happens.

Not to mention at mid to high %'s F-throw does not have guarenteed follow-ups.



But Hydrograbbing with squirtle doesn't require the c-stick.....how would it become impossible?

i don't think it's unreasonable to expect your opponent to always be able to SDI the jab combo out of grab release, since they're going to be expecting it as soon as the grab release animation occurs. i mean... on the rare occasion that i get to play PT dittos, i pretty much never fail to SDI and shield the third hit if they're doing it out of grab release.

i wasn't talking about follow-ups in the guaranteed sense, but more that u-throw puts them above squirtle, or f-throw can put them offstage against squirtle, and that's never a fun place to be ^^

Oh thanks for clarifying. I've never really thought to WB char's rocksmash. I do it with razorleaf all the time though since it grants it more horizontal and vertical range.

One last question, I've noticed that many squirtle players don't use hydro Dsmash too often. Should I perhaps use it less.

Pardon the 10,000 questions. I'm rethinking how I currently approach my character.

hmm... personally i never use hydroplane d-smash. reflex has some thoughts about how the hitbox covers a lot of distance and has good duration but i haven't really found a place for it in my game

Nope you can just hit the grab button as you finish the hydroplane motion with the analog stick, you get the same exact effect.

There is not a single hydroplane you need the c-stick for besides forward hydroplaning.

that's interesting brian... i didn't know that =o is it easier than the c-stick method? not that the c-stick method is hard...

on that note, if by forward hydroplane you mean the instant u-smash one, that doesn't need the c-stick either. unless you mean hydroplane f-smash?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I never used Hydroplane D-Smash because I think it's hard to do, mostly. That seems much more effective than Hydroplane U-Smash, though you normally don't have all that much time to set it up like that.

I think D-Smash's best places would be out of a turnaround (as a mix-up with Jab and Grab, as it beats spotdodges and has good range) and against opponents trying to get off the ledge (stays out long enough to catch many options that stay on/close to the ground and has good range).

 

[CoonTail]

i don't think it's unreasonable to expect your opponent to always be able to SDI the jab combo out of grab release, since they're going to be expecting it as soon as the grab release animation occurs. i mean... on the rare occasion that i get to play PT dittos, i pretty much never fail to SDI and shield the third hit if they're doing it out of grab release.

i wasn't talking about follow-ups in the guaranteed sense, but more that u-throw puts them above squirtle, or f-throw can put them offstage against squirtle, and that's never a fun place to be ^^

Lol well we are PT mains, so by default we should always know how to deter our own tricks. Honestly though not many players out there consistently SDI the jab combo and I have played against players from almost the entire EC.

I see what you are saying about the throws but I personally really like grab release to jab combo because even if they SDI correctly a combat walk will reconnect on the larger members of the cast.

hmm... personally i never use hydroplane d-smash. reflex has some thoughts about how the hitbox covers a lot of distance and has good duration but i haven't really found a place for it in my game

Hydroplane D-smash has a few very interesting uses IMO. One is obviously as an edgeguard since the angle of knockback tends to be down and out, unfortunately if they read this you can punished hard. I mainly use hydroplane d-smash to punish get-up attacks I baited with a reverse shift.

Hydroplane d-smash also does a really good job at hitting opponents that are attempting to land due to the lasting hitbox on it. So if you ever finding yourself giving to much chase after a f-air/d-air/f-tilt(at high %'s) try a hydroplane D-smash

that's interesting brian... i didn't know that =o is it easier than the c-stick method? not that the c-stick method is hard...

on that note, if by forward hydroplane you mean the instant u-smash one, that doesn't need the c-stick either. unless you mean hydroplane f-smash?

I find hydroplaning without the c-stick so much easier since it leaves no error to net the opponent a punish. If you mess up using the C-stick there is a chance you will throw a random smash and get punished, by just using the analog stick + w.e action you are trying to do (Grab/smash/shield/tilt/spotdodge) you leave no input that can cause a "misclick" if you will.

I mean have all you guys been using hydroplane techs with the c-stick? The only time I use my c-stick when hydroplaning is if I am doing a hydrosmash?

And lol Mike, I forgot you can forward hydroplane U-smash with the direction + A LOL.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I only use the C-Stick for Hydrograbbing as Squirtle.

It's starting to sound more like setting C-Stick to Special might really benefit us as a whole, if only for easy Rock Smash tricks.

 

[CoonTail]

Well in that case try inputting the hydroplane then hit grab. Once you try it I don't think your gonna want to go back to using the C-stick.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Do you have to buffer a Back motion and/or the grab itself? I'll try playing around with it now and see what happens.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Thats a relief to hear. I spent a lot of time practicing hydro-Dsmash so its good to know the time wasn't wasted.

It seems to have use against opponents on t he egde. The fact that it gives almost 0 virtical KB sets up well for an edgehog. I only ever play on WiFi though, so I haven't an idea of how safe/punishable it is.

 

[T-block]

Lol well we are PT mains, so by default we should always know how to deter our own tricks. Honestly though not many players out there consistently SDI the jab combo and I have played against players from almost the entire EC.

I see what you are saying about the throws but I personally really like grab release to jab combo because even if they SDI correctly a combat walk will reconnect on the larger members of the cast.



Hydroplane D-smash has a few very interesting uses IMO. One is obviously as an edgeguard since the angle of knockback tends to be down and out, unfortunately if they read this you can punished hard. I mainly use hydroplane d-smash to punish get-up attacks I baited with a reverse shift.

Hydroplane d-smash also does a really good job at hitting opponents that are attempting to land due to the lasting hitbox on it. So if you ever finding yourself giving to much chase after a f-air/d-air/f-tilt(at high %'s) try a hydroplane D-smash




I find hydroplaning without the c-stick so much easier since it leaves no error to net the opponent a punish. If you mess up using the C-stick there is a chance you will throw a random smash and get punished, by just using the analog stick + w.e action you are trying to do (Grab/smash/shield/tilt/spotdodge) you leave no input that can cause a "misclick" if you will.

I mean have all you guys been using hydroplane techs with the c-stick? The only time I use my c-stick when hydroplaning is if I am doing a hydrosmash?

And lol Mike, I forgot you can forward hydroplane U-smash with the direction + A LOL.

hmm... whatever makes you happy i guess. personally, i'm making a conscious effort to phase grab release > jab out of my game. i can think of at least three players i played/play fairly regularly who would punish me if i consistently go for grab release > jab combo. there's something to be said for mixing it up with stopping after jab2 or even jab1 to catch them shielding or maybe even a smash attack in the wrong direction, and having that mixup can allow the full jab combo to be brought back into it, but to be honest in most cases i'd rather u-throw and take the follow-up opportunity as a juggle. i've found that as i've improved as a player, the follow-ups from u-throw tend to lead to more, so that on average i probably deal more damage overall just by putting them above me.

not sure what you mean by combat walk... SDI away by your opponent usually leads to a (power)shield on the third hit, so even if you choose to restart the jab combo after jab2 or something (and squirtle takes a relatively long time to recover from jab2) you'll still be tapping their shield with jab, which isn't safe?

my hydrograb rate is basically 100% with the c-stick, so i don't really see a reason to switch. plus i think the utility of the c-stick for retreating aerials is already enough to beat out b-sticking to make wavebounces and b-reversals easier.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

my hydrograb rate is basically 100% with the c-stick, so i don't really see a reason to switch. plus i think the utility of the c-stick for retreating aerials is already enough to beat out b-sticking to make wavebounces and b-reversals easier.

That's really what it comes down to--The ability to use retreating aerials without having to stop your retreating motion at all vs. easy wavebouncing.

If you can get it down to a science, normal controls are your best bet, since you have all the options available to you; some just become harder than others.

 

[CoonTail]

I just find c-sticking hydrograb to be an unnecessary input, why not just hydroplane -> grab. I'm not saying change your ways T since tbh if it's already working for you theres no need to change. I just never understood why someone wanted to incorperate the c-stick into such a simple AT.

Combat walking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXmiI1QEWeo

By naturally doing this out of grab release you can stop yourself from going beyond jab 2, on top of that if they SDI out and you chose to combat walk then you can jab the opponent again. Unless the opponent is a heavy, they made find themselves struggling to shield after SDI'ing out since the frame window is small since jab1 comes out frame 1.

I don't really find squirtle taking THAT long to recover from Jab 2, but with combat walking allowing us to stop after jab2 you can do a better job of not tapping their shield(which your right, is not safe)and instead re-grabbing the opponent if they chose to shield.

You can say it is situational, yet overall I have used this consistently and it has netted me a good amount more damage. As opposed to U-throwing the opponent and missing the U-air string due to a well placed airdodge or a b-reversed option -_-.

 

[Myollnir]

You can't do it that fast if you hit with the jab.

Oh and hydrostalling + DSmash =


Edit : I use the C-Stick for every AT and I can do a wavebounced FT or RS ; I don't think we can hydrojab/dsmash without it? So I don't see any interest in setting it to "special". Can we travel a bigger distance when B-Sticking?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You can't do it that fast if you hit with the jab.

Oh and hydrostalling + DSmash =

You can if you only hit with Jab1, which is common against certain characters due to the distance you release them, such as Diddy Kong.

Hydrojab is pretty much useless; true hydroplaning is much safer and much more useful. I don't think we can Hydroplane D-Smash without it, yeah.

If you can Wavebounce Rock Smash on command with little trouble, more power to you.

 

[T-block]

you have troubles with it reflex? o.o what inputs are you using?

i pretty much have wavebounce rock smash 100%... wavebounce/b-reversal flamethrower is a bit trickier since the control stick needs to be at neutral until a certain point, but rock smash should be pretty simple.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

you have troubles with it reflex? o.o what inputs are you using?

i pretty much have wavebounce rock smash 100%... wavebounce/b-reversal flamethrower is a bit trickier since the control stick needs to be at neutral until a certain point, but rock smash should be pretty simple.

I'm doing the correct inputs; I'm just bad.

 

[DrSoussou]

I wish Lucarios would discuss their AT's half as often as you guys discuss PT's.

Chiming in cuz I just recently read this for the first time and spent an hour practicing all these hydroplane techs. Lots of fun. I also never knew how fatigue was quantified so that was interesting. Some of these remind me of challenge trials in super street fighter, where you have to get the inputs just right at very specific time intervals in order to properly perform the combo lol. Keep up the good work.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

People really should be more active in general on the boards. Many character boards aren't nearly as helpful as they could be.

 

[klao]

idk if some1 know this(i thing every1 know this, but anyways i post this lol), u can land from the Ivysaur upB lagless on some stages like battlefield on the plataform, like using a full hop>upb for the higher plataform and a short hop>upb for the other 2 plataforms

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah, it's useful for really situational pressure and a safe KO attempt. Olimar also shares this trait.

 

[Deleted member]

Ivysaur is a girl and most of the videos have been taken down.
Still quite helpful