Non-Foxes vs HBox

[Jamisinon]

So I don't think I've seen this discussed anywhere, forgive me if it's been posted and I missed it.
I am wondering what everyone's thoughts are on players going NOT FOX vs HBox. I can't remember the last time HBox lost to a Marth, partly bc M2K goes Fox against him. I know it's not a good MU for Peach so Armada goes Fox against him. Plup's Sheik has shown it can do it but he too goes Fox against him (I do think Plup's Fox vs Puff is better than his Sheik though, and I'm not saying these are bad character choices).

It just seems like every top player switches to Fox for Hbox. Then Summit happened where HBox dropped sets to both Falco and Yoshi. Maybe they are almost flukes, or maybe it's partly bc Hbox has played Fox vs Puff A LOT. IDK whether Axe's Pika, Falco, or YL has the best chance vs HBox. Does Mang0's Falco have a better chance in the long run? What if M2K went Marth in MU?

I'm just curious what other people think. Do you guys think using a character outside of Fox is the best option for top players? Or if a non-top-6 Falcon, Falco, Marth, Sheik, YL etc. has a decent chance to beat HBox.

 

[Nohbl]

The players don't switch to Fox because their characters can't win. It's because they don't want to do what it takes to win with their own characters. They'd rather play Fox, they say, because they'd at least derive some enjoyment from facing Jigglypuff. I've always thought this pathetic, though understandable. If there is any character other than Fox who stands at least an equal chance against Jigglypuff, it is obviously Falco, and Mango's win shows this.

I don't think there is a reason why Marth can't beat Jigglypuff. All that is off the table is grabbing. Recovering is merely made tricky, but many Marth players are already proficient in pulling off tricky recoveries.

I think continuing to go Fox against Hungrybox is a mistake that only the Toppest of players can now afford to make. Plup only barely won G5; I think he picked up at least one major win against HBox since then, but it's been business as usual besides that. Armada has the brains to win, if his skill doesn't meet the level of other Foxes. Mango has the skill and experience. That's it for who poses even a blip of a serious chance. On the other hand, you have Fox players a peg down, like Crush at GOML, who can take Hungrybox to game 5. But I would consider it a fluke if any of them actually beat him---not because they aren't skilled, but because Hungrybox's experience is just tremendous. But this all comes down to HBox continuing to perform as he is, and improving still in the near future.

​

So players can gamble trying to play catch-up with HBox's ever increasing Jigglypuff skill, or turn to other matchups. I haven't seen the Yoshi match, but in a sense, if Yoshi can do it, why can't higher tiers? I would not say Captain Falcon has come close to beating him, but the character has looked like he stands a chance at certain points over the years, especially in Wizzrobe's hands. Pikachu has been called a bootleg ("poorman's", to be precise) Fox for upsmash and other moves. Pikachu's upsmash and Thunder are potent kill moves against Jigglypuff, but the problem of the matchup, as it seems to me, is his racking up damage, and nigh inability to quickly take stocks from edgeguards. I can see these being mitigated on BF to an extent, Yoshi's Story and Pokemon Stadium, due to lowered ceilings. Difficult, but doable.

I think players who aren't at the highest level and aren't already maining Fox should quit trying to use him. The time they invest in Fox won't guarantee that they'll be at a level to seriously compete with Hungrybox; maybe other Jigglypuff players, sure. Instead, they can invest time in learning their own character's underdeveloped matchup. Being afraid of losing is only going to hurt them in the long run.

​

 

[zuloon]

The players don't switch to Fox because their characters can't win. It's because they don't want to do what it takes to win with their own characters. They'd rather play Fox, they say, because they'd at least derive some enjoyment from facing Jigglypuff. I've always thought this pathetic, though understandable. If there is any character other than Fox who stands at least an equal chance against Jigglypuff, it is obviously Falco, and Mango's win shows this.

I don't think there is a reason why Marth can't beat Jigglypuff. All that is off the table is grabbing. Recovering is merely made tricky, but many Marth players are already proficient in pulling off tricky recoveries.

I think continuing to go Fox against Hungrybox is a mistake that only the Toppest of players can now afford to make. Plup only barely won G5; I think he picked up at least one major win against HBox since then, but it's been business as usual besides that. Armada has the brains to win, if his skill doesn't meet the level of other Foxes. Mango has the skill and experience. That's it for who poses even a blip of a serious chance. On the other hand, you have Fox players a peg down, like Crush at GOML, who can take Hungrybox to game 5. But I would consider it a fluke if any of them actually beat him---not because they aren't skilled, but because Hungrybox's experience is just tremendous. But this all comes down to HBox continuing to perform as he is, and improving still in the near future.

View attachment 145916​

So players can gamble trying to play catch-up with HBox's ever increasing Jigglypuff skill, or turn to other matchups. I haven't seen the Yoshi match, but in a sense, if Yoshi can do it, why can't higher tiers? I would not say Captain Falcon has come close to beating him, but the character has looked like he stands a chance at certain points over the years, especially in Wizzrobe's hands. Pikachu has been called a bootleg ("poorman's", to be precise) Fox for upsmash and other moves. Pikachu's upsmash and Thunder are potent kill moves against Jigglypuff, but the problem of the matchup, as it seems to me, is his racking up damage, and nigh inability to quickly take stocks from edgeguards. I can see these being mitigated on BF to an extent, Yoshi's Story and Pokemon Stadium, due to lowered ceilings. Difficult, but doable.

I think players who aren't at the highest level and aren't already maining Fox should quit trying to use him. The time they invest in Fox won't guarantee that they'll be at a level to seriously compete with Hungrybox; maybe other Jigglypuff players, sure. Instead, they can invest time in learning their own character's underdeveloped matchup. Being afraid of losing is only going to hurt them in the long run.

View attachment 145917​

High IQ post

 

[Jamisinon]

^ agreed. Well thought out and very well articulated.
I'm a marth main with a falco secondary. I think both marth and falco have all the tools to beat puff. I just hate seeing players try to learn a new character for a specific matchup before they try to learn their own main characters. While I'm not arguing that Fox has the best chance at being Puff, I just rather see people use characters they are better with. Fox could easily be the best chance for both Plup and M2k but I think their Sheik and Marth respectively are both overall better than their Foxes.
I can't say practicing Sheik/Marth vs Puff would even benefit them, I simply don't know. Just for a while you had Mang0, M2k, Plup, and Armada all going what IMO is their not best character vs HBox bc of the MU. You also have players like Axe and Westballz going secondaries bc of the MU.
While aMSa and Mang0's Falco wins at Summit might not be the norm it does show that maybe other characters can do it. Mang0 I think is the best example of this, bc his Fox is good enough to beat HBox. But Mang0's Falco is a better embodiment of his playstyle. I think his Falco is better than his Fox. So I applaud that he's trying Falco in the MU.
It's just right now it seems like only Fox can consistently challenge HBox and while I don't see Peach, Icies, Samus, Ganon being ever viable vs HBox, I do think Sheik, Marth, Falcon, and Falco could all be viable options.

 

[Modesty]

Realistically a lot of characters can beat Puff. Amsa did it with Yoshi who loses badly to Puff. The issue isn't the character it's that Hbox is the best player in the world right now. Look at it from the flip side, Hbox is consistently beating Foxes who it's generally agreed upon is Puff's worst MU. At the end of the day Match up spread and tier lists really just describe how difficult it will be to beat that character because the person behind the controller is the biggest factor.

Another factor worth mentioning is the Puff meta game has been super underdeveloped for a long time. There is even a lot of Puff tech Hbox isn't even using, and development of a characters meta game goes well beyond tech. Every interaction in melee has near endless levels of ways to approach it. And even though there are no patch changes in melee, the meta evolves because people can always change the way they approach a situation and even known options can be optimized or utilized in new ways. It's similar to how most sports rules have stayed largely the same for decades or even centuries yet every year people approach it in new ways. The game doesn't need to change for people to discover new ways to succeed.

 

[R3D3MON]

Wizzrobe shows a lot of promise, personally. He has done it in the past, and it seems like falling up air and d-throw can give puff a lot of trouble. Falcon has the speed to completely outpace puff at every situation, and his hitboxes are quite huge. I also love the fact that Wizzrobe never seems to give up fighting; his mentality is very strong and he is extremely patient, even when the momentum, stock count, or damage is against him. I think currently Wizzrobe can't beat Hungrybox very consistently because of slight mentality issues during corner situations (messing up his defenses) and sometimes playing too aggressively with his movement (not enough running shields), as well as some trouble during edgeguarding sequences by being too passive, but if Wizzrobe pays more attention to these issues in the future I'm sure he will be a very strong, consistent threat against Hbox.

 

[Hatt[E]]

Hbox just has amazing game sense and is overall a very good player. Transfer his skill with puff into another character like fox and he'd be unstoppable. When you look at it based on how skilled Hbox is, the only character that stands a chance against him is Fox. However, Puff actually struggles against Dr. Mario a lot. Weird, I know, but believe me when I say it that Dr. Mario's DI Traps and pill spam are very effective against Puff. I highly doubt we'll ever see a Dr. Mario main come out of anywhere any time soon so the best shot we have at someone cracking the Hbox code is some Fox main. When you look at the highest level of play, most characters have the tools to beat puff but Hbox knows those matchups like it's nothing. I think as the metagame evolves, people will learn to adapt to puff play because in my opinion puff isn't even top 5.

 

[Jamisinon]

the best shot we have at someone cracking the Hbox code is some Fox main. When you look at the highest level of play, most characters have the tools to beat puff but Hbox knows those matchups like it's nothing. I think as the metagame evolves, people will learn to adapt to puff play.

I believe Peach and ICies have a very tough MU vs Puff. But I too believe the MU isn't unwinnable for Falco, Falcon, Marth and even Sheik (though I think of the aforementioned she might have the toughest time). Not arguing, just asking, do you really think HBox has the non-Fox match-ups down? aMSa's yoshi and mang0's falco just beat him last month. I'd also say that Zain's Marth gave HBox a much closer call at SnS4 this past weekend than did M2K's Fox.
I do think it's fairly clear Fox is Puff's worst MU and it makes lots of sense for people to use Fox in the MU. I super agree with Armada going Fox bc the MU is so bad for Peach. But as much as I love Plup and his Fox did win G5 he more often than not loses the match vs HBox. Kinda the same story with M2K in recent times. Their Foxes can win I just wonder if it's the best plan bc HBox usually wins.
HBox just must have played the Fox vs Puff MU to death by now. He has sooo much tourney experience with it against the top players in the world. I just seriously question if Fox is the best answer for some people. Like how much time does M2K dedicate to practicing Fox just for HBox to lose anyways? With M2K going Fox and PPMD currently absent there hasn't been a lot of Marth for HBox to have to fight. Mang0 and Westballz both for quite a while went Fox instead of Falco.
IDK how much of a good idea it would potentially be for people to go Sheik vs HBox but I do think throwing some Falco and Marth at him could work. From Winner's Semis, sometimes WQ on HBox is just only playing against Foxes. I could be completely wrong, I'm no top 10 player. I just think going secondaries and tertiaries for a more favorable MU instead of playing the characters you personally are best with might not be the best approach. Plus, it would be more enjoyable from a spectator POV to see a different MU. I mean I'm sure I'm not the only one that loved Zain vs HBox at sns4 or Mang0's Falco at Summit. As far as the Falcons go, I think it's just the skill gap with HBox just being better. But they are all still going Falcon against him so I like to see that.
To put it simply if you feel the need to go non-main Fox vs Hbox you either don't have faith in your character or don't have faith in yourself.

I also find it strange you don't have Puff in the top 5. I personally think she's 4th and HBox's success makes people overvalue the character a lot. I know some people have Puff as high as 2nd behind Fox. I think Falco, Marth & Puff all kind of have some argument in the 2-4 range. But that's just my two cents.

 

[Hatt[E]]

I believe Peach and ICies have a very tough MU vs Puff. But I too believe the MU isn't unwinnable for Falco, Falcon, Marth and even Sheik (though I think of the aforementioned she might have the toughest time). Not arguing, just asking, do you really think HBox has the non-Fox match-ups down? aMSa's yoshi and mang0's falco just beat him last month. I'd also say that Zain's Marth gave HBox a much closer call at SnS4 this past weekend than did M2K's Fox.
I do think it's fairly clear Fox is Puff's worst MU and it makes lots of sense for people to use Fox in the MU. I super agree with Armada going Fox bc the MU is so bad for Peach. But as much as I love Plup and his Fox did win G5 he more often than not loses the match vs HBox. Kinda the same story with M2K in recent times. Their Foxes can win I just wonder if it's the best plan bc HBox usually wins.
HBox just must have played the Fox vs Puff MU to death by now. He has sooo much tourney experience with it against the top players in the world. I just seriously question if Fox is the best answer for some people. Like how much time does M2K dedicate to practicing Fox just for HBox to lose anyways? With M2K going Fox and PPMD currently absent there hasn't been a lot of Marth for HBox to have to fight. Mang0 and Westballz both for quite a while went Fox instead of Falco.
IDK how much of a good idea it would potentially be for people to go Sheik vs HBox but I do think throwing some Falco and Marth at him could work. From Winner's Semis, sometimes WQ on HBox is just only playing against Foxes. I could be completely wrong, I'm no top 10 player. I just think going secondaries and tertiaries for a more favorable MU instead of playing the characters you personally are best with might not be the best approach. Plus, it would be more enjoyable from a spectator POV to see a different MU. I mean I'm sure I'm not the only one that loved Zain vs HBox at sns4 or Mang0's Falco at Summit. As far as the Falcons go, I think it's just the skill gap with HBox just being better. But they are all still going Falcon against him so I like to see that.
To put it simply if you feel the need to go non-main Fox vs Hbox you either don't have faith in your character or don't have faith in yourself.

I also find it strange you don't have Puff in the top 5. I personally think she's 4th and HBox's success makes people overvalue the character a lot. I know some people have Puff as high as 2nd behind Fox. I think Falco, Marth & Puff all kind of have some argument in the 2-4 range. But that's just my two cents.

Would also like to mention that Sheik also has an underrated good matchup against puff, with camping and all. If Sheik camps on battlefield and camps on platforms there isn't all too much puff can do about it. Puff has terrible upward options so camping somewhere that puff literally cannot pressure you is a benefit for sure

 

[R3D3MON]

I ****ING CALLED IT. WIZZROBE WINS OPTIC ARENA OVER HBOX WOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Nohbl]

I told you so.

 

[Jamisinon]

I don't want to come across as an HBox hater but man was it nice to see a not-a-Fox beat Puff. Wizy hit so many techs, played patiently when he needed to, didn't put himself in bad positions at all. Considering how big and heavy and how fast a faller Falcon is he really didn't give HBox many rest opportunities. I still don't know how consistent any top Falcon is gonna be vs HBox but at least now they definitively have a winning blueprint they can study.
(I just hope M2K doesn't start going Falcon vs HBox now Kappa)

 

[Nohbl]

Latest entry in the can-do-it tier:

CEO 2018 SSBM - Liquid | Hungrybox (Jigglypuff) Vs. [L] PG | Plup (Sheik) Smash Melee Grand Finals

 

[MalanoMan]

Love to see the debates about who can beat Hbox and then seeing the results of these recent tourneys and settling those debates.