• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Noid's Diary: Last Updated 12/30/10

NO-IDea

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
1,690
Location
Baltimore, MD

This thread was baptized by Xyro. If not for her, Samus would not be the lesbian she is today.​

[collapse= Strengths and Weaknesses]Strengths: My idea here was to list what I thought were her five biggest strengths in no particular order. Thus, when playing my matches, reviewing them or critiquing other Samus mains, I gauge how well they optimize on their character's abilities.
  • Strong and spammable projectile game: What other characters can boast four projectiles (two different kinds of missiles) and a z-air? Samus ranks 3rd for best camper in the game, trailing behind Falco and Olimar. Every other character will be forced to approach. Considering the fact that Brawl is naturally a defensive game, forcing the opponent to approach is exactly what you want.
  • Auto-canceled aerials and a spike: Not many characters can claim this advantage. The transition from ground to air moves (and vice versa) is smooth and opens the door to many potential combo strings. Her missile cancels further supports this. Samus also boasts a considerably strong spike, viable both on and off stage.
  • Long, high damage dealing tilts coupled with a long grab and a jab cancel: Her moveset should reflect her gameplay... and it does. F-tilt can be angled for handling different approaches. Her d-tilt does 14%, comes out at a respectable speed and works as a launcher. U-tilt is great for ledge guarding and anticipating aerial approaches. Combined with true pivoting, a grab as long as her f-tilt and a jab that links into her tilts, Samus is naturally a turtle character.
  • Versatile Recovery: Bomb jumps, projectiles, tether and a spike? On top of her fall speed, this allows her to compete even against MK's options for gimping. Off-stage, Samus has no real blindspots. She can cover the 6 o'clock with bombs and her spike. The 8'o clock with a fast-fall/retreating f-air. She can quickly snap onto the ledge and reverse the situation with her long z-air, choosing either to stay low, cancel the tether or just get back on stage altogether. Samus is one of the hardest characters to gimp in Brawl.
  • Heavyweight and floaty fall: With proper DI, she can momentum cancel from the sides and live to +140%. This compliments her overall character design. With her weight leverage and recovery, she can afford to take risks such as her slow grab or bombs. This also leaves a higher margin of error for spacing as well. With this character, you can lose the battle but still win the war.


Weaknesses: Akin to strengths, the idea here is to list what I believe are Samus' five biggest flaws. Again, I want to see how well the player can mitigate and/or use Samus' weaknesses as strengths during gameplay.
  • Roll is highly situational: The frame data on Samus' roll is invincibility on frames 4-23 and the animation ends on frame 44. Excluding the beginning frames, this means Samus is vulnerable for a full 21 frames. Opponents can react and punish with their slowest moves, given enough time. However, her roll does go exceedingly far, serving the purpose of an escape manuever at least if not a position to punish. Players can still buffer a roll as they land, as well as use roll out of Charge Shot and to avoid predicted attacks. Remember that while 21 frames is a large disadvantage, it does not account for ending lag for opponent's moves. It's still an option Samus has, even if it's not the best.
  • No significant shield stun on her ground moveset: While frame data for Samus has not yet been released by SmashLab, it's safe to say that her moveset is not safe on shield. This means that if the opponent is close range and in their shield, Samus is in trouble and her first instinct is to retreat into a better position. However, what will differentiate between a high-level Samus and a regular Samus main is both acceptance and understanding of this flaw. Note that being in shield is one of the worst positions to be in Brawl. In turn for safety, players suffer a 7 frame shield drop. Even jumping requires 5 frames (the fastest), not to mention 2 more for the aerial. And the fastest grab comes out in 6 frames. Maximizing the distance of the hitboxes of her tilts, learning the spacing and options of jab canceling on shield and using her camp game to condition the opponent to shield in a disadvantageous position (mid range) can turn negative frame advantage into a positive, damage racking scenario.
  • Sub-par smash attacks: F-smash has short range, d-smash does not have enough hitstun to kill and u-smash is hard to utilize. This in turn leads to trouble in killing the opponent. Adjust the playstyle so that smashes are used as punishment tools and not for killing and it is possible to land smashes easier. F-smash can still land off of perfect shielding. True pivots and walking can cause opponents to whiff attacks and lead into f-smashes as well. Air dodges can be punished by all three smashes, with f-smash tilted down providing the best trajectory knockback available for Samus because of their downwards DI due to fast-fall or a late buffered spot dodge. D-smash comes out on the same frame as d-tilt, does 15% and has decent shield stun and knockback. The hitboxes stay out and can be timed via charging to punish rolls. Finally, u-smash is hard to connect and even harder to link into itself against players who SDI. However, it is still very possible to link all hits, or simply benefit from linking one or two. Charging underneath platforms is a safe option and deals decent damage. Players falling into Samus with an aerial can be punished with OoS u-smash. Running u-smash, and jump cancel-reverse u-smash can at times shield poke or catch an opponent off guard. All her smash attacks are relatively fast and if used correctly, make a significant difference during the match.
  • One of the worst fast-falls in Brawl: Her weight provides no advantages against vertical kill moves. Samus is also susceptible to juggling because of this. There is little that can be done to alleviate this issue other than using bombs, saving double jump as an option and simply retreating to the ledge. Most vertical kill moves in this game are often obvious (Snake/D3 u-tilt, Fox u-smash) so experience and prediction can make this less of an issue.
  • Mediocre ledge options: While getting to the ledge is rarely an issue, recovering onto the stage certainly can be, especially if the opponent properly spaces himself (close enough to shield grab a z-air back on stage.) Planking with up-b can help stall and test the patience of the opponent, but otherwise Samus is lacking. F-air from the ledge can be shield-grabbed if fully committed to and outspaced by many smashes in the game if not. SDI up can also turn f-air into a bad position (MK n-air, Peach n-air and other aerial kill moves.) Missiles are rarely safe. They can be power shielded and in turn, the opponent can steal the ledge before Samus can up-b. Samus' only other options are typical normal get-up, jump from the ledge, double jump from the ledge and get-up attack. The animation for normal get-up and get-up attack are very distinct, so an opponent who is familiar with them can react accordingly. Because Samus has a lackluster fast-fall, double jump air dodge is easier to punish compared to other characters. A viable mind game is to re-tether, only to cancel the tether and double jump back onto the stage. For this weakness, no advice can be offered other than to use your head. Try applying shield pressure and weaken their shield. If they re-adjust their spacing, it will give your more room to recover. If they don't, f-air can shield poke and you're back in the game.
[/collapse]

[collapse=Moveset]
[collapse=Specials]Charge Shot Samus' bread and butter move. With decent accuracy, this move will account for at least 1/4 total damage given in a match. If she's not charging, it should be only because she is not in the position to charge or if Samus has a lead in momentum that should not be wasted. While it can be used as a kill move, it serves a better purpose as a damage racker (26% full charge!) Fully charge shot works best as a punisher because its fast speed and range allows you to reach targets as they air dodge when Samus would not be able to otherwise. The more liberal the use, the better. The other typical way to land charge shots is as a follow-up to missile canceling.

Other uses of Charge Shot worth mentioning:
  • Aerial Charge Shot: It does more than just punish air dodges from long range. Firing a super missile first and followed by an aerial shot can shield poke. Instant double jump into firing a fully charge shot as late as possible has such a low trajectory it can hit players on the ledge.
  • Uncharged shot: Grounded or aerial, at close range this has enough hitstun at high percents to link into ground moves like f-smash and d-tilt if the opponent chooses an option other than shield to respond with. The slow tempo of the move also allows you to mix this in with missiles. Just be prepared for the slight end lag.

Charging Perhaps the most significant aspect of charge shot is the act of charging. The options from charging are exactly the same as any character in their shield: Samus can grab, shield, roll and jump (OoS). The sole difference of course is that Samus can also fire, which in turn makes this position more advantageous than simply shielding. Consider the options and spacing for this move.
  • When the opponent is between d-tilt range and slightly outside f-tilt's maximum range, Samus can choose to fire preemptively. This covers the option to roll (they will finish in front of Samus, meaning free punishment) as well as short hop.
  • Or, when the opponent is between point blank to jab range, Samus can choose to fire. This again covers the option to short hop. However, the difference in timing can draw out paranoid shield and spot dodge habits and still maintain an accurate shot. Bear in mind that at this range, rolling behind Samus does become an option for the opponent.
  • Samus doesn't have to shoot at all. Shield cancel once they enter f-tilt range and patience and pivoting can draw out whiffed approaches and allow Samus to punish with tilts and smashes. Or, Samus can simply grab once they enter f-tilt range if the opponent is expected to shield, spot dodge or rush in recklessly.
  • Never forget that roll is an option as well as spot dodge. Charging may force an opponent to use an aerial approach, and in response, OoS aerials and up-b are viable options too.
The best Samus players are the ones who are comfortable with "doing nothing" during the match. Charging shot is a long-range form of a standing/walking neutral position. Make the perfect shield mechanic of Brawl work in Samus' favor and abuse the strength and shield stun advantage charge shot provides.​
[/collapse]
[/collapse]

[collapse=Gameplay]Samus is a unique to Brawl in that she has a highly diversified camp game. Her moveset focuses on keeping her opponents out and turtling. With this said, she suffers to Brawl's more powerful "perfect shield" mechanic. However, this can be mitigated with proper variation in timing/tempo.

Camping with Samus comes in three ways: Charge Shot, Missiles and Z-air. This can be further divided into aerial and ground camping. Each have their pros and cons.
  • Aerial Camping: missile canceling and air dodge to z-air come to mind. This strategy is aggressive and the higher tempo of the two forms of camping. Aerial camping is often adopted as a measure to counter-camp an opposing player who has projectiles. However, due to the necessity of short hopping, it is very vulnerable to power shielding and walk/dash approaches. Instant double jumping can reduce the danger of this method, providing more options such as fast-fall z-air, bomb and the ability to perform two aerials. However, the removal of her double jump early makes this prone to juggling if Samus is hit.
  • Ground Camping: super missiles, charge shot and bombs make up the slower, safer method of camping. Sacrificing tempo for mobility, Samus retains her shield options while being able to walk, dash and perform her moveset in a reactive playstyle rather than predictive. Fully extended f-tilt is hard to punish on shield, u-tilt and retreating aerials are safe, non-committing spacing tools against aerial approaches, and dashing into dash attack/grab/n-air are good tools to transition into offensive gameplay.
Which of the two should you adopt? If using Samus to the fullest, both. Ground camping is superior in regards to defensive gameplay, but if you put the opponent into a bad position, aerial camping capitalizes on the momentum that is already in your favor. Proper variation between the two will catch players off guard in their attempts to power shield and avoid the projectiles. Use both in all MUs.[/collapse]

[collapse= Character Match-ups]
[collapse= Metaknight (MK)]MU classification - 65:35

Ground Game
  • MK's dash speed lessens the effectiveness of projectile spam. Because her homing missile and z-air require short hops, it is recommended to not use these unless within maximum range of use.
  • The alternative is use of super missiles, charge shot and bombs. Super missiles, when used correctly, can provide good shield pressure when not perfect shielded.
  • Charge shot and its shield cancel should be used to its greatest extent. Force ground approaches this way. You do not always have to hold a fully charge shot, contrary to popular belief. While it does outprioritize tornado, you take away the advantages of the charging position. Charging is essentially fighting from a neutral position with the ability to fire long-range instead of close range melee attacks. Roll is an unexpected option, as is jumping out of shield and spot dodging. At best, you can space charge shot so they have limited frame advantage out of shield.
  • Bombs are underrated. They can be a useful escape manuever as well as a mix-up (ground and short-hop.) There is no essential downside to forcing MK back. However, the advantages can be tremendous at times, both percentage wise and psychologically if they land and you chain moves to them.
  • Be wary of forward rolls. Especially as an option against missile cancel->grab. It is hard to punish rolls without committing for Samus (d-smash/f-tilt). Better to condition the Mk and punish later for a kill move instead of attempting a read. Or simply space away from it and choose safer follow-up options from z-air/missile cancel.
  • Jab cancel on shield is viable, but watch out for MK's up+B OoS.
  • MK's f-tilt does not outrange Samus's. Space and punish it with your own. Because of this, walking and spacing f-tilts is an extremely useful tool in the MU. With patience and proper reaction time, this can also beat MK's roll option. Mix-up with super missiles, dash attack, grab and bombs to complete your ground game.
  • MK's d-tilt does not have high hitstun. Samus can jab and d-tilt through it if MK does not force a trip.
  • MK's d-smash has -18 shield drop advantage from the front. Always try to punish it with your high damage moves.
  • MK's n-air can be safely punished by up+b. With proper spacing, you should always be able to limit MK's option to use n-air.
  • As long as you remember to DI up, abuse your weight leverage. Attempting the grab once in a while is always better than ruling out the option.

Aerial Game

Recovery

Ledge Guarding and Platform Abuse

[/collapse]
[/collapse]
 

NO-IDea

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
1,690
Location
Baltimore, MD
Changelog
12/29/10 - I made this thread! Added a completed S&W analysis as well as rough sketches of Gameplay and the MK MU.
12/30/10 - Included a Moveset Section. Added a complete "Charge Shot" and "Charging" analysis.
 

NO-IDea

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
1,690
Location
Baltimore, MD
The purpose of this thread is for me to provide a compendium of knowledge accessible to the public. Rather than post here and there and only on subjects relevant to the topic at hand, this thread allows me to pour out what I know. Maybe it can help you.

All information will be gradually updated and added to the OP. I'll edit the title of the thread to reflect the latest addition. I would prefer to not have a sticky for this. Mostly because I want this thread to be at the top due to it's publicity and active contributions. It'll force me to be productive in other words.

I don't plan to make it aesthetically pleasing, but I will try to make it organized. Just read (or don't. This is mostly for me, not you) and enjoy. Post your comments, thoughts and any information you think is beneficial and I'll add them to the OP.

And to conclude this introduction, most often I'm drafting my add-ons through this site called workflowy.com. It's a great way to brainstorm and I recommend it for those who need help when they're stuck on a problem.
 

Throwback

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
1,249
Location
Green Tooth Gorge
Pretty good read, I have a couple of comments.

Imo a strength of samus is her anti-ledge game. Homing missiles are excellent, as is zair and lagless landings. Often an opponent's only good option to get back on the stage is to ledge-jump, which puts them in the other bad stage position - directly above you. Utilt is an amazing ledge-guard option at the right time.

For ledge recovery, you can try delaying your second jump by a fraction - samus will land instantly on the stage.

I'm convinced that samus' dtilt is faster, frame-wise, than dsmash. I've never seen frame data to show otherwise.

I've never seen ftilt outrange MK's ftilt, and in fact I think I tested it a couple of years ago and found that MK's is longer. I would be very happy to be proven wrong though.
 

bleyva

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
511
i for one find No-IDea's optimism for the advancement of Samus' metagame to be a refreshing change of pace from the run of the mill 'she's a hopeless garbage character' comments i frequently read around here.

i'll be following this thread closely
 

NO-IDea

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
1,690
Location
Baltimore, MD
Pretty good read, I have a couple of comments.

Imo a strength of samus is her anti-ledge game. Homing missiles are excellent, as is zair and lagless landings. Often an opponent's only good option to get back on the stage is to ledge-jump, which puts them in the other bad stage position - directly above you. Utilt is an amazing ledge-guard option at the right time.

For ledge recovery, you can try delaying your second jump by a fraction - samus will land instantly on the stage.

I'm convinced that samus' dtilt is faster, frame-wise, than dsmash. I've never seen frame data to show otherwise.

I've never seen ftilt outrange MK's ftilt, and in fact I think I tested it a couple of years ago and found that MK's is longer. I would be very happy to be proven wrong though.
I will definitely going over her anti-ledge game at some point in my "Gameplay" section. And while I do acknowledge that it is a decent strength of hers, it's not what defines her and is average compared to the rest of the cast simply because grab isn't an option.

I thought I covered instant landing for Samus in recovery. Perhaps I overlooked it when I covered her tether cancels.

According to frame data provided by KJ, they both come out on the same frame. No official frame data has been released, so can't be sure.

MK's f-tilt3 is the same range as Samus' f-tilt (with transcendent priority instead of a hurtbox obviously). His f-tilt 1 and 2 are not as long. The point of the statement is that walk to pivot f-tilt will outspace MK's f-tilt.

Be sure to keep your eye on this thread as I add more.

i for one find No-IDea's optimism for the advancement of Samus' metagame to be a refreshing change of pace from the run of the mill 'she's a hopeless garbage character' comments i frequently read around here.

i'll be following this thread closely
Thanks for your support. I'm sure you won't be disappointed.
 

LanceStern

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Messages
1,636
Location
San Diego, CA. (619)
In support of the anti-ledge statement I've been toying around with this for a while:

They are on the ledge, what if you stand about a fsmash distance away with your shield on and UpB OOS when they pop up?

They can't ledge attack you, get up or jump over you without getting screw attacked. only possible thing is to roll past you or fake you out. Prefereably battlefield would be the best stage for this just so that if you miss the screw attack you can retreat to the ledge.


MK's d-tilt does not have high hitstun. Samus can jab and d-tilt through it if MK does not force a trip.

MK's d-smash has -18 shield drop advantage from the front. Always try to punish it with your high damage moves.
Are these two advices true? I usually don't try and punish MK properly spacing dsmash because it pushes me back and the only safe thing to punish with is ftilt.

I think what would be cool is just adding in how you personally KO Metaknight. I consciously knock up his percentage until roughly 120% and dtilt.



GREAT TOPIC
 

Throwback

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
1,249
Location
Green Tooth Gorge
I will definitely going over her anti-ledge game at some point in my "Gameplay" section. And while I do acknowledge that it is a decent strength of hers, it's not what defines her and is average compared to the rest of the cast simply because grab isn't an option.
Now who's underestimating samus? Every single ledge return for every character has vulnerability frames. 'Grab' in this situation is upB. But really, between zair and HMC, it is extremely easy to force an air-dodge onto the stage - which is very easy to punish thanks to lag-free landings and great range. Let me draw you a ****ty picture:


_S______ xxxxxx
||||||||||||O
||||||||||||

S = samus
O = opponent hanging on the ledge
xxxxxx = an imaginary line horizontally aligned with the lip of the stage.

Timed correctly, zair prevents every character(with the exception of MK + his ******** tornado) getting past this line without air-dodging. No character except TL & samus can then do anything before samus lands and punishes your AD. Yes the correct timing will (kind of) dodge it, but it's still incredibly effective, completely safe and has numerous mix-ups.
 

Hive

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 12, 2006
Messages
1,605
Location
Mountain View, ca
I'm going to have to respectively disagree with your matchup analysis on mk, not that I like sounding pessimistic, but anything below 20-80 seems like a stretch (I'm still tempted to peg it at 100-0 so ppl understand the kind of feet it is when a samus does pull this matchup off i.e. it shouldn't have happened) and really I can't see top samuses beating the top mks, although I def appreciate the optimisim in the matchup and I did enjoy the writeup , and I would LOVE to see some of your work against mks :). He's def the best and an almost bannable char for a reason though, we can theorycraft a lot of ways that we could hypothetically counter his moveset but many times its hard to realistically consider what kind of tradeoffs moves have. Using samuses jab and spot dodge can both be considered "counters" to DDDs infinite in the sense that it can in fact stop DDD from grabbing us but how reliable are they really in practice? MK outperforms samus in a variety of ways, and some of them are completely debilitating to her gameplay.

-Samuses spam walls completely crumble due to his speed, nado, missile breaks, aerial mobility etc... forcing a contant close range/defensive game where samus doesn't have any safe options -as soon as we jump in the air to spam with any predictability he can nado and it will likely go through our entire spam wall and hit us from 2/3ds across the stage before we can get grounded and react unless we happen to have a fully charged charge shot saved up or preemptively decided to use a high hitting zair to hit the top corner, which most of the time will just backfire and allow him a free hit on misprediction that hits for considerably more than zair.
-MK has one of the best anti ledge games in the entire game, that completely is designed to counter samus. Nadoing on and off the stage counters our entire ledge moveset AND keeps us from fulljumping out of it. Even the few options we can use from there that may hit him will end up putting us back in the same position. Not to mention the other moves and grabs he has at this position, along with kos, especially up b.
-Offledge mk has a fullproof way to gimp us once we get a certain distance away and our recovery is forced into a bombjump bombjump screwattack or zair pattern, all he has to do is go out and keep swatting us away with fair before our screw attack range, as we don't have enough space to throw in other attacks. If he fairs us away on a normal approach that doesn't fit this recovery pattern it will most likely end up in that pattern too on the return, so we basically have to entirely avoid fair at good knockback percents. If we do get lucky enough to spike him he will most likely recover, and his aerials almost all outprioritize our own. If we do zair him offstage he can still most likely recover back to the ledge before us and ledgeguard or go on stage and anti ledge us off the stage again anyways, and he has a variety of ledgehogs and hitboxes on the ledge that pretty much stop us from having a lot of chance of reaching it consistently, including various back to ledge options (down b, up b) and a delayed ledge block with ledge hop nado hovering near the ledge that is hard to counter (in recovery you will most likely not be able to hit the top vulnerable portion of it).
-His ko moves are much safer and less punishable than ours, and come out at lower percents, artificially skewing the damage ratios in his favor we need to dish out to win the matchup. He also has excellent DI which makes him a lot less koable than we assume.
-Moves like screw attack, grab and zair while good don't really put out enough dmg for the amount of risk they put us in. And its weird to say that for zair tbh but he can approach while we zair spam really well if he sees it go up.
-MK has way more safe cps than us and no stage weaknesses, including a few that imo will totally crush samus (i hate yoshi's island and rainbow cruise). We end up having to avoid some of my fave levels like battlefield. I still think our best bet is to go to a stage with highly risky areas like the walk offs in castle siege and just prey you can get in a bthrow to free ko, and even then I don't see it in our advantage. Or maybe ps1.
-His up b oos and aerials break ALL of our combos in a similar fashion to marth, and samus is a very combo oriented character. And they have strong ko potential and knockback.
-His platform abuse is much more solid than samuses, nado and up b especially as with fast aerials. Some if timed right are unpunishable as he can attack and return to a safe position before we can respond.

so in general our ledgegame, spam game, chain dmg, stage counters, platform and offledge game are all completely countered by legit mks imo. And I just don't see us winning in close range ground game. Just in my exp anyways. This is one of those matchups where I just feel helpless and constantly pressured the whole time when they know how to play it, and they just keeping poking holes in our defense that really amplifies her less advantaged gameplay areas. And I really have messed around with different approaches to counter it, and I just can't... :(
I mean, please prove me wrong, but I still haven't really seen samuses take down any of the very top mks reliably in tourney.

Ps sorry for such a critical first post in your thread! :) I think the idea of trying to put your views into a thread is a great idea btw, and despite debate should provide a lot of great info to players.
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
5,921
Location
California
Batman Doesn't Win by Fighting Skill Alone; Fight Smart

The Play Styles

There seems to be three ways of fighting. These three are as follows: Offensive, Defensive, and Adaptive. All three of these have certain aspects. The Offensive play style, for example, is aggressive, and this aggressiveness leads to pressuring the opponent, giving him or her no space. For the Offensive play style, it's about control. The Defensive play style is different. It tends to avoid close-combat and risks. Instead of aggressiveness, the Defensive play style is about patience, waiting for the opponent to do something wrong, and then strike. It's a style that likes to play it safe. Then there is the Adaptive play style. It really cannot be considered a play style, since it does not conform to one style. It is always becoming better suited to the situation at hand.

Things to Observe

  1. Grounded opponents can only perform neutral, tilts, smashes, specials, and grabs. That's five offensive options.
  2. Grounded opponents can only shield, roll, and spot-dodge. That's three defensive options.
  3. Airborne opponents can only perform aerials and specials. That's two offensive options.
  4. Airborne opponents can only perform an air-dodge. That's one defensive option.
  5. Opponents with two jumps can only jump once more once he or she jumps, or is hit into the air.
  6. Opponents with multiple jumps like Jigglypuff, King Dedede, Kirby, or Meta Knight have only five more jumps once they jump into the air or are hit into the air. Pit has three more jumps.
  7. When the match begins, you want to always do something different. You also want to pay attention to the first thing your opponent does when the game begins. The stage you or your opponent selects may change this.
  8. When the match begins, pay attention to whether or not your opponent is using a KO attack as a regular attack. An attack meant to KO that is staled will least likely KO.
  9. When at high damage percent to the point that you can be KO'ed, pay attention to what attack your opponent uses to KO you. By knowing what attack to expect, you might be able to survive longer.
  10. When your opponent is on the edge, pay attention to how he or she gets back onto the stage. This might be determined based on where you're standing and what you're doing. Your opponent can return from the edge by:
    • Getting up by pressing forward.
    • Attacking by pressing A or B.
    • Jumping by tapping up on the analog stick or pressing Y or X.
    • Rolling past you by tapping L or R.
    • Jumping slightly away and toward the stage while air-dodging.
    • Jumping slightly away and toward the stage while attacking with an aerial or special attack.

Playing at Your Own Pace

Playing at your own pace comes from experience. There are gamers who do not play at their own pace, but at the pace of their opponent. I'll offer an example. When you grab on the edge of the stage, what do you normally do after you grab the edge? Do you immediately get back onto the stage? If you do, you might do well to slow down a bit. You're on the edge. You're safe there for a bit. Take the time to breath and relax and focus. Let's say that your opponent is waiting for you to get back onto the stage. Take the time to see where your opponent is positioned. Try to familiarize yourself with how your opponent reacts when you are returning to the stage. Check if there is a pattern for each time you return.

If you're on a stage like Green Greens or Pokémon Stadium 1, don't be in such a hurry to attack. Think about what you want to do. Don't play the way other people play. Play your own way. When you play your way, your opponent is no longer in control. When your opponent influences the way you act, then your opponent has control over the stage. If you do not let this happen, your opponent cannot influence you any longer. For example, on Pokémon Stadium 1, when the stage transitions to the construction site, you can hide behind that large rock and just kick back. Let your opponent come to you, if he or she is daring enough. You don't have to do anything.
 

NO-IDea

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
1,690
Location
Baltimore, MD
In support of the anti-ledge statement I've been toying around with this for a while:

They are on the ledge, what if you stand about a fsmash distance away with your shield on and UpB OOS when they pop up?

They can't ledge attack you, get up or jump over you without getting screw attacked. only possible thing is to roll past you or fake you out. Prefereably battlefield would be the best stage for this just so that if you miss the screw attack you can retreat to the ledge.

I just want to say first off that it's nice to see you post in the Samus boards again. I haven't seen you here in a long time.

As far as using up-b as an option, the thing to remember is that the only time shield is the proper option is when reading a ledge attack. Otherwise, Samus in her shield against normal get-up or a double jump (drop from the ledge double jump) means you opted out from a better option. Likewise, jump from the ledge is covered by u-tilt, probably the best option considering its killpower. While I won't say we should rule out up-b as an option, it's not the best. I'll be sure to include it though when I get to the section.



Are these two advices true? I usually don't try and punish MK properly spacing dsmash because it pushes me back and the only safe thing to punish with is ftilt.

Yes it is. MK is a very well taken care of character with an accurate frame data thread.

I think what would be cool is just adding in how you personally KO Metaknight. I consciously knock up his percentage until roughly 120% and dtilt.



GREAT TOPIC
Now who's underestimating samus? Every single ledge return for every character has vulnerability frames. 'Grab' in this situation is upB. But really, between zair and HMC, it is extremely easy to force an air-dodge onto the stage - which is very easy to punish thanks to lag-free landings and great range. Let me draw you a ****ty picture:


_S______ xxxxxx
||||||||||||O
||||||||||||

S = samus
O = opponent hanging on the ledge
xxxxxx = an imaginary line horizontally aligned with the lip of the stage.

Timed correctly, zair prevents every character(with the exception of MK + his ******** tornado) getting past this line without air-dodging. No character except TL & samus can then do anything before samus lands and punishes your AD. Yes the correct timing will (kind of) dodge it, but it's still incredibly effective, completely safe and has numerous mix-ups.

I wasn't underestimating Samus. But the statement, "it is extremely easy to force an air-dodge onto stage" is the foundation of your argument. But that isn't true. Normal get-up into shield has a worst-case scenario of being pushed back onto the ledge by missile. A player with enough patience can repeatedly use this tactic until a mix-up is used by Samus (say a predicted u-tilt or a preemptive jump).

Also, I will not rule out grab as an option. But it is a mediocre option nonetheless, because it disallows Samus the ability to react to normal get-up (due to slow start-up frames), whereas every other character in the game, when in shield near the ledge, has a grab option against normal get-up or ledge attack.
I'm going to have to respectively disagree with your matchup analysis on mk, not that I like sounding pessimistic, but anything below 20-80 seems like a stretch (I'm still tempted to peg it at 100-0 so ppl understand the kind of feet it is when a samus does pull this matchup off i.e. it shouldn't have happened) and really I can't see top samuses beating the top mks, although I def appreciate the optimisim in the matchup and I did enjoy the writeup , and I would LOVE to see some of your work against mks :). He's def the best and an almost bannable char for a reason though, we can theorycraft a lot of ways that we could hypothetically counter his moveset but many times its hard to realistically consider what kind of tradeoffs moves have. Using samuses jab and spot dodge can both be considered "counters" to DDDs infinite in the sense that it can in fact stop DDD from grabbing us but how reliable are they really in practice? MK outperforms samus in a variety of ways, and some of them are completely debilitating to her gameplay.

The idea of looking for a sole solution to every scenario for MUs is theorycraft. I recommend changing your style of play altogether. For example, your D3 example. A better answer would have been to say, "focus your gameplay on the ledges. This minimizes the total damage potential of CGs (this is under the assumption infinites are illegal. D3 still has a huge hurtbox and a shield that can be poked easily. We still have a longer grab range than D3. D3 has telegraphable kill moves. By all means, I am not arguing this is a favorable MU or even for that matter. My experience tells me it's disadvantageous, but winnable. As for that experience? The only D3 at the moment having any reputable tournament results.

-Samuses spam walls completely crumble due to his speed, nado, missile breaks, aerial mobility etc... forcing a contant close range/defensive game where samus doesn't have any safe options -as soon as we jump in the air to spam with any predictability he can nado and it will likely go through our entire spam wall and hit us from 2/3ds across the stage before we can get grounded and react unless we happen to have a fully charged charge shot saved up or preemptively decided to use a high hitting zair to hit the top corner, which most of the time will just backfire and allow him a free hit on misprediction that hits for considerably more than zair.

My response: I don't really spam. I space. If anything, I've told Samus mains countless times to stop attempting spam walls. Furthermore, to quote you, "as soon as we jump in the air to spam with any predictability...."

I agree. So stop trying for those missile cancels at mid range. It's not the only thing Samus can do.


-MK has one of the best anti ledge games in the entire game, that completely is designed to counter samus. Nadoing on and off the stage counters our entire ledge moveset AND keeps us from fulljumping out of it. Even the few options we can use from there that may hit him will end up putting us back in the same position. Not to mention the other moves and grabs he has at this position, along with kos, especially up b.

This is in fact a problem. I've stated this as one of Samus major weaknesses. Still, there are remedies, and MK having a small shield certainly doesn't hurt.

-Offledge mk has a fullproof way to gimp us once we get a certain distance away and our recovery is forced into a bombjump bombjump screwattack or zair pattern, all he has to do is go out and keep swatting us away with fair before our screw attack range, as we don't have enough space to throw in other attacks. If he fairs us away on a normal approach that doesn't fit this recovery pattern it will most likely end up in that pattern too on the return, so we basically have to entirely avoid fair at good knockback percents. If we do get lucky enough to spike him he will most likely recover, and his aerials almost all outprioritize our own. If we do zair him offstage he can still most likely recover back to the ledge before us and ledgeguard or go on stage and anti ledge us off the stage again anyways, and he has a variety of ledgehogs and hitboxes on the ledge that pretty much stop us from having a lot of chance of reaching it consistently, including various back to ledge options (down b, up b) and a delayed ledge block with ledge hop nado hovering near the ledge that is hard to counter (in recovery you will most likely not be able to hit the top vulnerable portion of it).

I will explain how to recover against MK's gimp tools when I get to that section. In due time.

-His ko moves are much safer and less punishable than ours, and come out at lower percents, artificially skewing the damage ratios in his favor we need to dish out to win the matchup. He also has excellent DI which makes him a lot less koable than we assume.

Surviving actually is an advantage Samus has in this MU. Not to mention it is entirely possible to punish a majority of MK's kill move options. If anything, weight leverage and kill moves would come in our favor. It's speed, momentum and his gimping ability that makes it MK's favor.

-Moves like screw attack, grab and zair while good don't really put out enough dmg for the amount of risk they put us in. And its weird to say that for zair tbh but he can approach while we zair spam really well if he sees it go up.

I find your analysis accurate. But irrelevant because again, I will repeat that there comes a time Samus should be holding her ground and retaining her shield options rather than recklessly leaving the ground. And because of the weight leverage, grab should never be ruled as a bad option in this MU. It beats shields. That is enough reasoning on its own.

-MK has way more safe cps than us and no stage weaknesses, including a few that imo will totally crush samus (i hate yoshi's island and rainbow cruise). We end up having to avoid some of my fave levels like battlefield. I still think our best bet is to go to a stage with highly risky areas like the walk offs in castle siege and just prey you can get in a bthrow to free ko, and even then I don't see it in our advantage. Or maybe ps1.

Battlefield is actually my favorite stage to take an MK. That and Final Destination. Smashville is the neutral to look out for. But again, player skill makes more of the difference than stage.

-His up b oos and aerials break ALL of our combos in a similar fashion to marth, and samus is a very combo oriented character. And they have strong ko potential and knockback.
-His platform abuse is much more solid than samuses, nado and up b especially as with fast aerials. Some if timed right are unpunishable as he can attack and return to a safe position before we can respond.

Do not mistake Samus' ability to link moves together to be what defines her. She's a turtle character. A hit here and there racks up and is safer than attempting combos of which you know are dangerous.


so in general our ledgegame, spam game, chain dmg, stage counters, platform and offledge game are all completely countered by legit mks imo. And I just don't see us winning in close range ground game. Just in my exp anyways. This is one of those matchups where I just feel helpless and constantly pressured the whole time when they know how to play it, and they just keeping poking holes in our defense that really amplifies her less advantaged gameplay areas. And I really have messed around with different approaches to counter it, and I just can't... :(
I mean, please prove me wrong, but I still haven't really seen samuses take down any of the very top mks reliably in tourney.

Ps sorry for such a critical first post in your thread! :) I think the idea of trying to put your views into a thread is a great idea btw, and despite debate should provide a lot of great info to players.

Thank you for the support. I still very much disagree, and when I get to it, will provide video references and explain further into detail how Samus should handle the MU.
The Play Styles

There seems to be three ways of fighting. These three are as follows: Offensive, Defensive, and Adaptive. All three of these have certain aspects. The Offensive play style, for example, is aggressive, and this aggressiveness leads to pressuring the opponent, giving him or her no space. For the Offensive play style, it's about control. The Defensive play style is different. It tends to avoid close-combat and risks. Instead of aggressiveness, the Defensive play style is about patience, waiting for the opponent to do something wrong, and then strike. It's a style that likes to play it safe. Then there is the Adaptive play style. It really cannot be considered a play style, since it does not conform to one style. It is always becoming better suited to the situation at hand.

Things to Observe

  1. Grounded opponents can only perform neutral, tilts, smashes, specials, and grabs. That's five offensive options.
  2. Grounded opponents can only shield, roll, and spot-dodge. That's three defensive options.
  3. Airborne opponents can only perform aerials and specials. That's two offensive options.
  4. Airborne opponents can only perform an air-dodge. That's one defensive option.
  5. Opponents with two jumps can only jump once more once he or she jumps, or is hit into the air.
  6. Opponents with multiple jumps like Jigglypuff, King Dedede, Kirby, or Meta Knight have only five more jumps once they jump into the air or are hit into the air. Pit has three more jumps.
  7. When the match begins, you want to always do something different. You also want to pay attention to the first thing your opponent does when the game begins. The stage you or your opponent selects may change this.
  8. When the match begins, pay attention to whether or not your opponent is using a KO attack as a regular attack. An attack meant to KO that is staled will least likely KO.
  9. When at high damage percent to the point that you can be KO'ed, pay attention to what attack your opponent uses to KO you. By knowing what attack to expect, you might be able to survive longer.
  10. When your opponent is on the edge, pay attention to how he or she gets back onto the stage. This might be determined based on where you're standing and what you're doing. Your opponent can return from the edge by:
    • Getting up by pressing forward.
    • Attacking by pressing A or B.
    • Jumping by tapping up on the analog stick or pressing Y or X.
    • Rolling past you by tapping L or R.
    • Jumping slightly away and toward the stage while air-dodging.
    • Jumping slightly away and toward the stage while attacking with an aerial or special attack.

Playing at Your Own Pace

Playing at your own pace comes from experience. There are gamers who do not play at their own pace, but at the pace of their opponent. I'll offer an example. When you grab on the edge of the stage, what do you normally do after you grab the edge? Do you immediately get back onto the stage? If you do, you might do well to slow down a bit. You're on the edge. You're safe there for a bit. Take the time to breath and relax and focus. Let's say that your opponent is waiting for you to get back onto the stage. Take the time to see where your opponent is positioned. Try to familiarize yourself with how your opponent reacts when you are returning to the stage. Check if there is a pattern for each time you return.

If you're on a stage like Green Greens or Pokémon Stadium 1, don't be in such a hurry to attack. Think about what you want to do. Don't play the way other people play. Play your own way. When you play your way, your opponent is no longer in control. When your opponent influences the way you act, then your opponent has control over the stage. If you do not let this happen, your opponent cannot influence you any longer. For example, on Pokémon Stadium 1, when the stage transitions to the construction site, you can hide behind that large rock and just kick back. Let your opponent come to you, if he or she is daring enough. You don't have to do anything.

Hello, Dryn! That's taken from somewhere, but I don't remember. But I disagree whole-heartedly with the division of playstyles. Adaptive is not a playstyle. It's n aspect of every high level player's gameplay. Furthermore, a defensive playstyle is more reactive, whereas while offensive playstyle can be reactive, but mostly relies on predictions, baits and habits.

I do plan to explain all those topics in your post. This compendium is going to be a couple months of work. But I encourage you, along with everyone else, to keep a watchful eye and contribute whatever you feel necessary.
A detailed format of what this thread is going to have is now in the OP. I will be adding sections with no order in mind, but for now expect it to be added in the list form it is now.

EDIT: Never mind. I'll keep what will be added as a surprise. Again, please note this compendium is mostly for my own analysis and usage, based on my experience, and you as the reader have the right to disagree. And hopefully you will! It leads to productive discussion which I will always pursue in this thread.
 

Hive

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 12, 2006
Messages
1,605
Location
Mountain View, ca
@Noid ty for the response :) I should clarify though that I don't actually think jab and spot dodge are a counter to the D3 matchup hehe I just meant to show how we can sometimes put too much weight on something that can theoretically stop an opponents move but in reality the damage tradeoffs in the long run really don't end up countering it. I think this is the case with bombs and uair v nado imo. TBH I have a two part technique for fighting DDDs, especially in infinite legal areas:
1) Spam **** at him while on stage to keep him from approaching.
2) When he approaches ***** out to the ledge, and try to make space from there again.

PS if he does land an infinite you should immediately throw insults at the player and try to make him feel bad. :)
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
5,921
Location
California
Hello, Dryn! That's taken from somewhere, but I don't remember.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, NO-IDea. Not quite. Sure, I'm certain there are people who have mentioned offensive, defensive, and adaptive, but in no way what I wrote actually from anywhere, and those ideas aren't strictly anyone's to own. I hope you're not saying that all of what you just read from me was from someone else and is verbatim.

Adaptive is not a playstyle.
I already said that.

whereas while offensive playstyle can be reactive, but mostly relies on predictions, baits and habits.
I disagree. An offensive playstyle would seem to be proactive. His or her attacks aren't based on what his or her opponent is going to do next, but what he or she is going to do next. This allows a seamless flow of attacks.

I do plan to explain all those topics in your post.
I don't know what you mean. If you disagree with what I wrote, you could specify that which you disagree with. If it's the offensive, defensive, and adaptive, then how can you explain these topics if you disagree with them?

And I thought we had a compendium.
 

NO-IDea

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
1,690
Location
Baltimore, MD
Whoa, whoa, whoa, NO-IDea. Not quite. Sure, I'm certain there are people who have mentioned offensive, defensive, and adaptive, but in no way what I wrote actually from anywhere, and those ideas aren't strictly anyone's to own. I hope you're not saying that all of what you just read from me was from someone else and is verbatim.

I usually don't doubt my memory. I knew it came from somewhere.
http://www.smashboards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8539247

See.


I already said that.

Yes, yes you did.

I disagree. An offensive playstyle would seem to be proactive. His or her attacks aren't based on what his or her opponent is going to do next, but what he or she is going to do next. This allows a seamless flow of attacks.

I disagree. I almost started typing down "this is Brawl, not Melee," but even in Melee, combos were made based on reacting to the opponent's response, whether it be retaliation with an attack, or retreating DI. In Brawl, that's even more apparent due to low hitstun on moves.

However, there is also a strong element of prediction and experience involved. The "read" if you will. It may be the result of conditioning, baiting, being extremely experience in said scenario (follow-ups from missile cancel for Samus or d-throw for MK) or just a mere guess. Regardless, that is as you would say proactive.

You can't say it's one or the other. It's both proactive and reactive.


I don't know what you mean. If you disagree with what I wrote, you could specify that which you disagree with. If it's the offensive, defensive, and adaptive, then how can you explain these topics if you disagree with them?

I agree with the entirety of your post as far as factual information goes. I inferred the idea that a player has to choose one though, which is where I would disagree. You did not explicitly say that in your post, so my apologies.

And I thought we had a compendium.

This is MY compendium. By the time this is done, this is going to be the be all, end all guide for any mid-level Samus main to progress further into high-level play. I still have to cover some fundamentals because you'd be surprised about the small facts people don't know or the misconceptions they believe, but overall it's just an advanced guide.
I'll always take time to respond to posts and attempt to update this guide daily for the next week or so, and then move on to weekly additions. We'll see how this goes.
 

Seagull Joe

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
10,388
Location
Maryland
NNID
SeagullJoe
Noid is the man! Seriously, you Samus's should listen to him...He knows what he is talking about when it comes to Samus and little bit to Sheik.

His Zelda sucks though.

 
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
4,285
MK's d-tilt does not have high hitstun. Samus can jab and d-tilt through it if MK does not force a trip.

MK's d-smash has -18 shield drop advantage from the front. Always try to punish it with your high damage moves.
Wow. Didn't know those things. At like 70%, if MK dtilts us, it's a free dtilt for us on him? That's nice <3.

So if MK dsmashes my shield, I can Grab him OoS? That's sweet. Would you say that shield dashing into him would be a good idea?
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
5,921
Location
California
I usually don't doubt my memory. I knew it came from somewhere.
Somewhere would be me. Glad you didn't provide anything to prove your point. Besides, I have my work saved on my laptop.

I disagree. I almost started typing down "this is Brawl, not Melee," but even in Melee, combos were made based on reacting to the opponent's response, whether it be retaliation with an attack, or retreating DI. In Brawl, that's even more apparent due to low hitstun on moves.

However, there is also a strong element of prediction and experience involved. The "read" if you will. It may be the result of conditioning, baiting, being extremely experience in said scenario (follow-ups from missile cancel for Samus or d-throw for MK) or just a mere guess. Regardless, that is as you would say proactive.

You can't say it's one or the other. It's both proactive and reactive.
Retaliation isn't necessary when you're the one being proactive. If you are proactive, you already have your goals set out for you. Reactive doesn't take experience. Proactive does. Here, I'll give an example. I know King Dedede mains will try their hardest to grab me, since I main Samus. However, with the knowledge that I have learn from HugS, stay next to the edge when fighting D3, I am being proactive, not reactive.

I'll get rid of the offensive versus defensive and just use proactive and reactive, although I find that one can play offensively or defensively.

Noid is the man! Seriously, you Samus's should listen to him...He knows what he is talking about when it comes to Samus and little bit to Sheik.
Um, no.
 

NO-IDea

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
1,690
Location
Baltimore, MD
Wow. Didn't know those things. At like 70%, if MK dtilts us, it's a free dtilt for us on him? That's nice <3.

At 70%, his d-tilt may pop you into the air depending on what part of the hitbox hit you. From there, you suffer landing lag so no. If you didn't get sent in the air? Yeah, d-tilt is feasible.

So if MK dsmashes my shield, I can Grab him OoS? That's sweet. Would you say that shield dashing into him would be a good idea?

For Grab OoS, you have to consider the following:
  • It's grab OoS. So for MK's d-smash, it isn't -18 frame advantage, it's actually -25 frame advantage (no shield drop).
  • Grab is 17 frames? MK d-smash comes out on frame 5. The time window between grab and his next d-smash therefore is 13 frames.
  • Finally, you need to account for how far away you are from the MK (just because the grab hitbox comes out on frame 17 doesn't mean it will reach him until say 5-6 frames later (accounting for max range of MK d-smash and the shield pushback as well.) And you need to account for your reaction time. It's hard to say you would be able to react perfectly.
In short, 13 frame window before the next d-smash. Half of that window is spent on the grab reach of him, the other half is based on your reaction time. Is it worth it? I'd say go for it if he d-smashes in your face, but otherwise punish with d-smash since it's going to do more damage than any of Samus' throws would have.

Shield dashing can be problematic. Unless you're shield dashing because you are predicting a an attack and therefore going for the perfect shield, then sure. Otherwise, you're only adding onto the natural frame advantage MK has. I would rather you shield when he's coming to you, and just stick to walking if you're trying to get into the spacing for whatever move you're trying to pull off.
Thanks Joe.

And Dryn... I didn't say it wasn't your work. I only knew I read it somewhere, which was your thread. I even linked your thread in the quote.

EDIT: Oh, I copied the wrong URL in the quote. I meant to do this http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=251157
 

Darkshadow7827

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 21, 2007
Messages
1,532
Location
Lower reaches of Shelbrunkand
Geeze NO-IDea, you're like an encyclopedia. Learned a good amount of stuff from here already from you and the posters above me. >.> I know where my flaws are, but after reading through the numerous wall of texts, I'm starting to think there might even be more weaknesses in my playstyle.

Also posting so I get update notifications in my User CP.
 

Rohins

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 18, 2006
Messages
1,585
Location
Winter Park, FL
NNID
Rohins
The vs dtilt knowledge is brand new to me. I'll be able to read this more thoroughly later. Thanks for the great post.
 
Top Bottom