No Tiers in Brawl: Theory of Character Counters

MajinSweet

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#81
Not true. It helps certain characters, so it does not balance the game, not even in it's base definition. As some said, Marth (on of the top teirs) gets an edge from it.
L-Canceling helps every character, and if you want to get technical it helps the character with the most lag more. L-Canceling removes half of your air attacks lag when landing, so the more lag you have, the more lag you lose. Marth for example can get by without L-Canceling (Except his dair) because most of his attacks don't have that much lag anyway. Where again, some one like Bowser is much more likely to get punished because all his aerials have so much lag on them.


However, I have seen characters like Link, Luigi, and Ness do well, and even have an edge over others. It maybe confirmation bias (where you look only for things that confirm your belief). There is also a reason a lot of newer players love Roy.
That part about Roy, is a perfect example of tiers existing at low level play. If everyone looked balanced, then no one character would stand out.
 

Delta Z

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#82
There's gonna end up being tiers, but my guess is they won't be as major in Brawl. The difference between Top & Bottom in Brawl will probably end up being the difference between Mid-High & Low in Melee. No one or two characters (I'm talkin' to you, Marth) will have an almost unfair advantage over everyone else.
 
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#83
You guys don't seem to get what tiers really are. Tiers are not a ranking of characters based on potential (which many people wrongly believe). Tiers are simply a ranking of characters based on tournament results. In order for a character to become high tier, they must place better than the other characters in tournaments.

Tiers will exist because it's based off of a real statistic (how high does this character place on average).

That being said, they will certainly fluctuate for a year or two after the first one, then they'll probably stabalize until someone makes some huge discovery that makes people place higher with specific characters than they did before (like L-canceling moving Fox and Falco up).
Yes, but they also correlated with how potential and ease of use as well. Just about anyone could pick up Marth and Sheik in Melee and do really well from the get-go. Sure it took a lot of practice to be REALLY good, but anyone who played Melee knows what I mean by this. Also, look how the Melee tier list ulitmately put M2, Bowser, Kirby, etc. at the bottom. Any casual player could tell you that these characters really...weren't too great. Sure some really good Melee players ultimately mastered them to some degree, but still...you know what I mean.

All that to say, the tier list correlated with how "good" a character was or how much he/she "sucked." It would be nice for this latter part to go away. Maybe Meta Knight will be top tier because many pros will like the way he can spend so much time off the map, etc. and will use him in tournaments. But, overall, he shouldn't be so obviously better than other characters, strictly speaking. Tiers are fine, but the difference between Fox/Marth/Sheik and Bowser/Mewtwo/Kirby in Melee was just far too great.

Not that any of this means anything, now anyway. It is what it is. I just hope it's balanced, and I think that's what everyone is saying here.
 

Johnknight1

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#84
< More Johns! *Points at username, and first name* :laugh:

Seriously, tiers will exist. People will make them. I have problems with the tiers, and disagree with them. Seriously, whoever organized the Melee tiers organized them bad. The format is 2:3:6:7:8 (characters). WTF? It should be 5:5:6:5:5, and organized, like smash 64's tiers (3:2:3:3:2). I still think the Melee tiers are wrong in some areas. Heck, just compare my tiers to the SWF ones:

SWF tiers:

SSBM tier list
Top tier
Fox
Falco

High tier
Sheik
Marth
Peach

Middle tier
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Samus
Dr. Mario
Jigglypuff
Mario
Ganondorf

Low tier
Link
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Roy
Young Link
Pikachu

Bottom tier
Yoshi
Zelda
Mr. Game and Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo

The Melee Tiers in my opinion: Red=went up higher Blue=went lower

Top tier
Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth
Peach

High tier
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Samus
Dr. Mario
Mario

Middle tier
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Roy

Low tier
Pikachu
Young Link (I'm a former Young Link user, lol!)
Yoshi
Ness
Bowser


Bottom tier

Mr. Game and Watch
Pichu
Zelda (how do people overrate her as better then Ness?)
Kirby

Mewtwo

Seriously, there will NEVER be absolute tiers in ANY FIGHTING GAME, but there are ways to limit them, or make them not even a debate...A FLAME WAR! Street Fighter II and III tiers are COMMONLY debated even to this day. The tiers are flipped flop so often in Street Fighter II and III, it's insane. Seriously, the best player in the world uses a "high tier" character. One of their rivals who often beats and ties them, making it a good match uses a low tier character. Another top level player uses the bottom tier character, and can occassionally beat the world champion. Stuff like that should be what Sakurai aimed at. He made a lower roster to support MAJOR BALANCE! And I already know the future Brawl tiers! :grin:

GOD TIER:
Young Toon Link (mained by Johnknight1 :grin:)

Bottom tier: Everyone else.

Respect the Young Links, fear the Young Linkz! :laugh:
 

Losnar

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#86
And how do tiers affect anyone who's not playing competatively? Why should you care what characters are placing high in tournaments?
While I've never entered a melee tournament, I have played them in other games like MvC2. I still want to become extremely good in a Brawl regardless of whether or not I'm gonna enter a tournament. And the best way to learn is from the best.
 
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#87
Not true. It helps certain characters, so it does not balance the game, not even in it's base definition. As some said, Marth (on of the top teirs) gets an edge from it.
Well it's obvious you don't even know what you're talking about. The other people who agree with me proved the point entirely well.
 

Sefe

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#88
Yeah...It seems so IDK To me it seems Marth is still GAY...N Wolf is the new Fox but IDK...I mean they may have slight advantages over certain characters but will it be enough...maybe with these advantage plus skill or moveset it may cause tiers IDK...i think I just sound ******** =P
 

sv3

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#89
One of their rivals who often beats and ties them, making it a good match uses a low tier character. Another top level player uses the bottom tier character, and can occassionally beat the world champion. Stuff like that should be what Sakurai aimed at. He made a lower roster to support MAJOR BALANCE! And I already know the future Brawl tiers
This is exactly what the topic creator was trying to say. Essentially, he was theorizing based on what he played so far that they attempted to balance the game much better than they did with Melee. This will result, hopefully, in tiers not making much of a difference in the end, like some of the better balanced fighting games (NOT Melee).
 

freeman123

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#90
This theory is stupid. Of course there will be tiers in Brawl. There are always tiers. People who think that there won't be tiers have bottom tier opinions.
 

blerb

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#92
tiers will exist, but they won't be varied. it'll be about 1 or 2 characters top tier, and majority in the middle, then bottom tier which will have, again, 1 or 2 characters.

judging from your examples anyways.
 

Spellman

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#93
tiers will exist, but they won't be varied. it'll be about 1 or 2 characters top tier, and majority in the middle, then bottom tier which will have, again, 1 or 2 characters.

judging from your examples anyways.
Whaaat. That's even worse, I don't want only two characters fighting in tournaments. I'm pretty sure we're all hoping for the majority (all) of characters to be top tier.

The rock paper sissors theory is not impossible, it just hasn't happened yet.

If someone somehow develops a tier list for a balanced game, then I can expect we'll see dramatic shifts in it all the time, people noticing a character is popular and deciding, "Hey, I want to be different.", and then getting good, schooling the top alleged top tier character, and then all of the sudden that becomes popular. Then someone else comes along and says they want to try someone new, he gets good, he takes out the top tier character, and the cycle could continue.
 

Enshoku

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#94
Whaaat. That's even worse, I don't want only two characters fighting in tournaments. I'm pretty sure we're all hoping for the majority (all) of characters to be top tier.

The rock paper sissors theory is not impossible, it just hasn't happened yet.

If someone somehow develops a tier list for a balanced game, then I can expect we'll see dramatic shifts in it all the time, people noticing a character is popular and deciding, "Hey, I want to be different.", and then getting good, schooling the top alleged top tier character, and then all of the sudden that becomes popular. Then someone else comes along and says they want to try someone new, he gets good, he takes out the top tier character, and the cycle could continue.
tiers are based on the statistics of tournaments, not the character itself... if very pro used ness and won with him, then he would be top tier, regardless of the character's limitations...
 

Dark Sonic

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#95
Whaaat. That's even worse, I don't want only two characters fighting in tournaments. I'm pretty sure we're all hoping for the majority (all) of characters to be top tier.
I don't think you get what he meant. He means that there will probably be like 2 characters that on average are better, and then a bunch of characters that are pretty good, and then one or two that have bad matchups for the most part.
 

sv3

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#96
tiers are based on the statistics of tournaments, not the character itself... if very pro used ness and won with him, then he would be top tier, regardless of the character's limitations...
It's been stated quite frequently that tiers are about the character, not the player. If Ness has more limitations than another character, he will rank lower despite who plays him.

Tiers just don't randomly come into existence. You have to be able to explain WHY that Ness player won that match, and if it poses any significant impact on the playability of Ness versus the playability of that other character in terms of winning a match. People will often take tournament results and then study them to determine who is of a higher tier, but you can't simply take tournament results at face value. I'd be disappointed if that's how the Melee tiers were developed.

Edit: Actually, I think someone brought this up earlier using some Socrates example. You can't just point at tourney results and say 'it's obvious X is top tier because it says so right here'. Tiers have never been about that. You have to explain why, and without a proper explanation than those results become irrelevant. Maybe that's the way people have been doing it for Melee, but I highly doubt that.
 
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#97
....Of course certain characters will be able to counter others. In every fighting game, some characters are better against some and worse against others. In more balanced ones, low tier characters may have advantages against high tier ones.

The whole idea of a tier list is that those on top have more advantageous match-ups than disadvantageous ones, while those at the bottom have very few (if any) advantageous match-ups.

Just because Brawl is balanced doesn't mean it won't have a tier list. I mean, Guilty Gear has one with 5 (I think?) rungs, and it's incredibly balanced. :psycho:
 

MetalMetaKnight

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In my opinion Tiers do AND dont exist. Tiers can easly be broken due to ability of the player. Gimpyfish for example (one of the best bowser players) Could take out a Fox player no problem, so to me there might be some insane, powerfull characters but if a person wants to prove that the others are better, they will.

~MMK

P.S. 200th post FTW :bee:
 

freeman123

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I don't think you understand what's going on.
I do understand. It's just like somebody else said. Tiers exist even with counter characters. Every fighting game ever made has had some characters that counter other characters, and they've all still had tiers.

This Rock, Paper, Scissors theory that some people have where every character will be equal is completely stupid. Maybe that would be possible if they had 3 characters, but not with 39.
 

MajinSweet

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In my opinion Tiers do AND dont exist. Tiers can easly be broken due to ability of the player. Gimpyfish for example (one of the best bowser players) Could take out a Fox player no problem, so to me there might be some insane, powerfull characters but if a person wants to prove that the others are better, they will.

~MMK

P.S. 200th post FTW :bee:
Gimpy is an amazing player, but if he plays a Fox who is just as good is he is then his chances of winning are very slim. Thats the crucial point so many people seem to miss. Tiers don't mean that Fox played by a noob will magically beat a pro Pichu. It compares the characters themselves and how they play in tourney rules, not real people.
 

Takeshi245

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There have always been counter characters in all fighting games. Of course, that didn't exclude the existence of the tier list. As a matter of fact, it proved it. To say other is contradictory to the reality of the existence of the tier list and is therefore false. There WILL be characters that are better than others, either immensely or slightly. It's a fact, and you can't refute a fact.
 

blerb

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If anything the tier list will be biased this time around. I know people will say Sonic is super-pooper tier while Snake is 'omfg suck' tier. I've seen a lot of people say stuff like that as well.
 

MajinSweet

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If anything the tier list will be biased this time around. I know people will say Sonic is super-pooper tier while Snake is 'omfg suck' tier. I've seen a lot of people say stuff like that as well.
Random people don't make the tier list, the Smash Back Room members do. They base there decision of tourney results not what other people think.
 

Senshuu

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Hee. I like how someone just said something almost to the effect of "tourney people aren't real."

No no no I'm twisting words. Amused me for a second, though. (In my current frame of mind, I might have even misread. Oh well.)

I finally understand this tier thing. Took this thread that long to explain it coherently and concisely. Discussing it is kind of dumb once you get it. Kind of like politics.
 

Wizard99

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hopefully in brawl, "tires don exist", but if they do so what. A person amazing with a bottom tier character can take down a person descent with a top tier character.

Tiers will exist, but won't be as rigid as melee. (more than 4 top tier)
 

goodkid

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No, by the looks of Brawl, all the characters seem balanced. There doesn't seem to be a significant advantage anymore such as a Fox and Mewtwo in Melee. I'm sure their will be tiers, but maybe this character counter thing could have a huge imput into the tier list. If character A is top tier and character Z is bottom tier, maybe character Z will have a huge advantage.
 

MajinSweet

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hopefully in brawl, "tires don exist", but if they do so what. A person amazing with a bottom tier character can take down a person descent with a top tier character.
The thing people really need to realize and accept is, that tiers will always exist. Its pretty much an impossibility for all the characters to be equal. The only way tiers wouldn't exist is if every character was an exact copy of each other, but then what would be the point in playing this game? Even if you had two characters that were exactly the same except for one tiny difference, one would have to be better than the other--not matter how insignificant it might be. Also, while a general feel of balance is good--having some characters being slightly better than the rest and a few slightly worse than most makes the game more enjoyable in the long run. As long as it isn't too extreme. This gives people that are higher skilled a challenge when using the weaker characters, or people new to the game a "newb friendly" character.

Tiers will exist, but won't be as rigid as melee. (more than 4 top tier)
We really don't know that to be honest. It could end up being less balanced than Melee, or it could be a much more even playing field. No one can really tell yet.
 

metahunter

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well before i get flamed "i do not belive in tiers"

if this whole counter system is true then wouldnt that make pokemon trainer (master of all play styles
and counters) top tier:dizzy:
 

Pyr0

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You guys don't seem to get what tiers really are. Tiers are not a ranking of characters based on potential (which many people wrongly believe). Tiers are simply a ranking of characters based on tournament results. In order for a character to become high tier, they must place better than the other characters in tournaments.

Tiers will exist because it's based off of a real statistic (how high does this character place on average).

That being said, they will certainly fluctuate for a year or two after the first one, then they'll probably stabalize until someone makes some huge discovery that makes people place higher with specific characters than they did before (like L-canceling moving Fox and Falco up).
This man speaks the truth! listen to him!
 

Replacement100

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The tier list could be near-circular at the beginning, and infinitely changing according to how many players play which character, and what character counters that.
Tiers and Counters don't have to be mutually exclusive.
 

LinkNSnake4Main

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It's my opinion that tiers are a myth anyways.

If i'm playing a mirror version of myself, with myself maining Link, and my mirror maining Fox. I'll win. 1/2 the matches, Fox will win 1/2 the matches. Give or take, after all Smash is a luck game sometimes.
 

billywill

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if this is true (i hope it is) that would make brawl rely more on the players knowledge on all the chracters therefore needing to know everything about every character and which character counters which
 

SmashChu

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Well, it sure helped Gannon move up in the world.:laugh: And if you think a little, it actually helped slower characters more than faster characters because it cut more lag off of their moves than the faster ones. Marth got better like you said, but Shiek didn't. Falco moved up a lot more than Fox did in comparison. So yeah, tournaments went from having all Shieks to having Shiek, Fox, Marth, and Falco, with the occasional Peach, Captain Falcon, and maybe Gannondorf. That seems like an improvement to me.
You are right, but it did help other characters, who were already good. At the very least it helped Fox (laser shortjump mostly). So, in that sense, it does not bring balance, and only further solidifies the fact who it destroys balance. It helps other characters get an edge, and as such, hurts the overall balance.

They like Roy because they don't know how to space correctly and thus can't utilize Marth's power (which he's actually stronger than Roy). Link, Luigi, and Ness do well because they just **** low tier characters in general, but if your opponent has any idea of spacing then those guys get owned. Ness is just wierd. IMO, the reason Ness is so low is because of his matchups against the high tiers, because he just owns low tier tournaments.:laugh:
Ummm, in's dumbfounding, you seem to be very out of touch. They chose Roy becuase he is better when up-in-your-face. Tell these people what spacing is and they won't understand you. Overall, I'm talking about a setting without tournamant rules or "advanced techs".

L-Canceling helps every character, and if you want to get technical it helps the character with the most lag more. L-Canceling removes half of your air attacks lag when landing, so the more lag you have, the more lag you lose. Marth for example can get by without L-Canceling (Except his dair) because most of his attacks don't have that much lag anyway. Where again, some one like Bowser is much more likely to get punished because all his aerials have so much lag on them.

That part about Roy, is a perfect example of tiers existing at low level play. If everyone looked balanced, then no one character would stand out.
I think you make a good point. II can't refute your first point, but I do have something to say on your last. Roy is an example of characters people chose when they start. He's a good starting character. And he works. He is used by newer people because he can rely on smashes and specials. The same is true for Samus and Link. But does this make them high teir? No. Let's look at Team Fortress 2 (a great game BTW, check it out). The game is balanced, but newer players play Solider. Does this mean the Soldier is better then the other classes. No. A Scout is harder to play then a Soldier, but both are balanced. That's the idea. Roy is balanced but much easier to play, but this is a direct contrast to the tiers which says he's not as good. In the lower levels, stuff like this does matter.

Well it's obvious you don't even know what you're talking about. The other people who agree with me proved the point entirely well.
No, obviously YOU do not know what you are talking about. This goes back to Socrates and the horse. When Socrates asked the man "Is that a horse?" the man said "Of course it's a horse". You are doing the same thing. I challenge your opinion, and you rely on others to argue it. Were you to know your stance, then you could successfully argue your side(or at least, make an attempts). However, you do not, so it brings me to the conclusion that you know not of what you speak.
 
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