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No Tiers in Brawl: Theory of Character Counters

Mama

Smash Ace
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May 21, 2007
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Besides the facts that the game has now been out a week and the majority of the people talking about it haven't played it, it annoys me that we're trying to force competitive play immediately onto Brawl.
Why are we looking for tiers when no one has mastered a single character? Advanced techniques instead of basic strategies?Right now is the time for friendlies. Things will lay themselves out naturally. We were used to the feel of things because of six years of play, but we've got to approach this as a new game. Casual evolves into competitive.

For a scene analogy, think of the Ice Climbers. They were low tier until Chu picked them up and showed their potential. Every character right now is Ice Climbers. For newcomers, there is no tier list to guide their character choice. We're all newcomers. Pick characters and make them good.

Anyway, I hope the tier list in this game will be much less noticeable. Some characters might be easier to win with, but I doubt they will dominate because of it. I just want the least amount of unplayable characters.

Oh, and have fun. That's what it's about.
Actually competitive play is already there. We aren't pushing anything onto it but trying to discover it. I think what you mean is people are sort of putting the kart before the horse or trying to run before they can even walk. I think thats due to the fact that scrubs hype advanced play so much that thats the first thing they talk about when it comes to Brawl and the competitive players are rushing to shut them up. I think regardless of what road people choose the meta game will still move on by players who don't even frequent the forums. When something really important is discovered it will be noted and posted about. Meanwhile players like you and I will be playing friendlies and getting a feel for basic mechanics. The scrubs will likely take an even more basic approach and ignore any talk of advanced play completely though.

As for tier lists, just think about them as preliminary. I think they're a necessity. People may see a character who is considered low tier and decide he looks interesting. Then he realizes the character is a diamond in the rough and the rest of the community takes notice and boom the character winds up shooting through the tiers. Meanwhile theres a character sitting in the high tier that that same player would look at and say "there are probably enough people playing as him" and over look the character.

Situations like that are how tier lists evolve. Its just something that happens in fighting games.
 

heypancho

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
110
I agree with Mama (..mama XD nice). I've always disliked the tiers but at the same time I thank them. A lot of people want to be different and will pick up a less popular character, or rather, someone low tier. I know I feel a lot better winning with Yoshi than a Shiek :p. Heh, I guess what I mean is that tiers will exist regardless, but I think that this "choosing a character because of popularity/unpopularity" will be less obvious because I get the feeling that all the characters are "naturally" good or in other words have something to offer. (I should have just said everything seems a lot more balanced -_-)..... Everything seems a lot more balanced!
 

Black/Light

Smash Master
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May 23, 2006
Messages
3,207
Lets stop flaming the tiers in the title.

Yea, there will be tiers. . .thats not what the OP is about. I think he is saying this. . .

When you first played Pichu how did you feel? Did you think he could "own" at tourneys given his small size and handy cap? No, he was a joke character as Sakurai said himself when he revealed him on the melee dojo. He meant to make him the weakest character with his handy cap (How Mew2 got to be soo hard to use making him below even Pichu at torneys I will never know).

What the TC is saying is that there doesn't seem to be a "Pichu" in this game. To what he has played there doesn't seem to be a overly powered "Sheik" of this game either. More characters seem to be belanced and to have clearer counters in brawl.

HELL, the first day I played Melee at my friends house I picked Pichu (Pokey Fan here) one round and than Pika the next one. . .than Falco/ Bowser/ Link and it hit me like a ton of rocks. . . Pichu was clearly crappier than any character I played that day and Falco/ Sheik played the best of the ones I played. Than I noticed my friend and Sheik (My friend's pick) wasn't just better because he had the game a week ahead of time but because she was even better than Falco in some respects (I played as her once as well and thats the closest I got to winning a round that day. I chose to go back to Falco cause I didn't want to play as the same character as my friend yet is took a well for me to get "Sheik close" to winning with him).
(From what I gather tiers are the result of people finding characters that are clearly better than others and using them in t-neys and it changes over time with new tricks and what nots.)


What he seems to be saying is that there isn't that up-front feeling that, after a limated amount of time with a character, that a character is clearly crappy or over powered because there seems to be characters that clearly counter them. Now, we know theres going to be some trick fond with someone like. . .Sonic lets say, that can help by-pass what every counter Lucario had (Im guessing that it's his reversal and the fact Sonic has a hard time landing early OKs before the reversal becomes effective) but it seems like the gap between characters is much smaller this time around than in melee according to him (I think thats what he is saying).

So in other words, a "low tier" character could still do well against a "top tier" character if, in fact, the gap between character have gotten smaller and there are counters in play.
 

Staco

Smash Champion
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tiers will excist
but maybe will as exampel diddy get top tier but he always looses against as example kirby players ^^
would be very nice
all take kirby against this diddy players and diddy as top tier gets difficults to win tournament ^^
 

ph00tbag

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In the highest tiers of the game, what you're talking about happens in a lot of games. In Melee, among the top four or five characters, there was a definite rock, paper, scissors effect going on. While one character or the other tended to win most, you also have to be aware that most Foxes who won tournaments could also play Falco, Marth or Sheik if they needed to counter someone. Despite this, there will still be one character who wins tournaments more than the others, and so on down the line.
 

Kurizu208

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It depends, and it's still way too early to be talking about such things. All it takes is for one little trick to be discovered that characters can take advantage of and all of a sudden some characters are dominating tournaments.

Still, it doesn't seem like there are obvious inferiorities like there were in Melee.
i completely agree with you.
 

-=Untamed-Beast=-

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I say tiers exists in the technical way. The game is more balanced w/o AT's because they usually amplify characteristics only certain characters have.
There's speed, traction, startup lag and ending lag, speed of moves, hieght, ability to combo, and so on. Even if Sakurai based each characters on a scale of 10, gave each character the same amount but different categories, they still wouldn't be balanced. Well in a way, they would be, but some characters lack the right attributes need for competitive play. Thus tiers exist.
BUT if all characters DO have the same amount of 'points' that are just different amounts in different categories, it reinforces this thread's idea. Some character's attributes happen to end up better than others depending on how you play.

ah wtf I lost my thoughts when typing :/
But there's what I was able to type before get all mixed up -_-
 

XACE-K

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This is probably what Sakurai wants, certain characters to be better or worse against other certain characters.
 

The-Judge

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There is no characters there are better than each other or counters against each other. It depends on your skills. I ruled with Pichu and Ganondorf back in Melee.
 

KeyKid19

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From what I've seen of Brawl and what I've read from people who have played the game, it seems like while there will certainly be tiers, I think they will be much less spaced apart. Sure, Falco will probably still be better than Jigglypuff, but I don't think that it will be to nearly as extreme of a level as in Melee. I know it's still early, but I've heard from many players so far that the character depth in Brawl is insane and that every character has to fight other characters with case-by-case tactics and strategies. Personally I hope this remains to be true and large segregated tiers DON'T emerge because I think it will make for the most interesting matchups, but still it's too early to tell.
 

Barstool

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Yeah, you definitely can't start talking about tiers this early.
I mean, do you know who was being played in the finals of the first Melee tournament?
It was Link vs. Jigglypuff! 'nuff said.
 

Roy-Kun

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The point is: Tiers do not exist.

Period.
 

Puffs

Smash Ace
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Tier list for Brawl:

Top Tier:
Marth

High Tier:
Landmaster

Bottom Tier:
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Gimpyfish
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Yoshi
Wario
Link
Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf
Toon Link
Samus/Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Ice Climbers
R.O.B.
Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Pikmin & Olimar
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Captain Falcon
Pikachu
Pokemon Trainer
Lucario
Puffs
Marth
Ike
Ness
Lucas
Mr. Game & Watch
Snake
Sonic
 

Rhubarbo

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Wait for the meta-game to evolve a bit. There will be tiers. It probably won't be as radical as Melee's (Fox, Marth, Sheik, Peach), but there will certainyl be tiers. Characters will counter others, but their will be tiers. If you think otherwise, you, are, stupid.
 

pirkid

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Tiers will exist.

However that doesn't NOT mean they will be nearly as varied as Melee.

The list will be changed many times as we find new things, even after a few years.
 

Hydde

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:/

I actually would rather main one character...It would be a really good challenge to be able to win against someone who is assentially(sp?) your characters "counter"
I used to think that way also... but in tournaments and against skilled people, i realized that having options is better sometrimes.

As an exmple... all my melee life i used marth. I have a friend of mine who mains sheik... but also plays very good with falco and cap falcon.

In one tournie... meanwhile i was fighting for my life to beat the skilled semi counters of marth out there, he switched characters dependig on the situation. There was a fox guy who kicked the shidd out of my friend´s sheik--- and he then brought falco,,,and with falco he won that tournament.

Is very good to always have some variety... because of that this time ill try to main at least 3 players with different characteristics.

Taking in consideration the original topic, i have noticed this counter thingy also. Because of it ill do what i said above...


anyways is too early to tell if what the original poster said is really true. Ill take a couple of years to really stablish which characters are the real deal... altho this time, it seems the differences will be much smaller than melee´s
 

Phyvo

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Dis be why PT = GOD TIER

omg you counterpicked my squirtle, I'll just have to pwn you with IVYSAUR
 

Dither

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Wait for the meta-game to evolve a bit. There will be tiers. It probably won't be as radical as Melee's (Fox, Marth, Sheik, Peach), but there will certainyl be tiers. Characters will counter others, but their will be tiers. If you think otherwise, you, are, stupid.
Perhaps I was hasty in saying there would be no tiers. Certain characters will be better than others, but my point applies to the characters that are of the same rank as another. While there will be characters that nobody will be able to use effectively, I believe that most characters will be at least playable, even after the meta game is developed.

I counter all arguements with one word.

Marth.

lol.
You obviously haven't played brawl.
 

MajinSweet

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I know people have already said this but, I think it needs to be stressed--its still far to early to know anything about the tiers. Some characters may appear to counter others now, but when people learn more about the game or reach a higher level of technical skill the opposite may end up being true. Secondly, even if every character in the game had a solid counter some where in the roster--a tier list would still exist. It would just be a matter of which characters do the best against there counter, and how they stack up against the rest of the roster.
 

SmashChu

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Tiers will exist.
The thing is, people will spew out words without knowing what they are saying, or if they even know the meanings of those words. Heres a good example. Socrates(a famous philosopher) asked a man, "Is that a horse". The man said "Of course that is a horse, are you blind?" In truth, he didn't know what he was saying. Yes, it was a horse, but he didn't really know why. Later, the man ask Socrates "OK, why is it a horse". He replies "That is a quadruped with deep hooves and a thin, wispy, tail".

People here do the same thing. They say "tiers will exist" but do they even know why they do, or will exist in Brawl. That is the reality some may face.

I think your theory (OP) may be right. In Melee, the game was unbalanced in the tourney sense only, but due to framing, they think it was unbalanced in general. That was not the case. In normal settings, you'll see that, for the most part, the characters are all balanced. It's due to tricks like Wavedashing and L-canceling that made it unbalanced. This is probably part of the reason Sakurai took it out. Now, it may be more balanced. That may be what they've been doing for so long.

I would not doubt this is the case. With more diversity in the characters (which we have heard from others) it may be that characters can counter each other. This will certainly help team play, and make more mindgames in choosing the characters, like a rock-paper-scissor system, which will require tournamnt goers to be able to play a wealth of characters.
 

MajinSweet

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I think your theory (OP) may be right. In Melee, the game was unbalanced in the tourney sense only, but due to framing, they think it was unbalanced in general. That was not the case. In normal settings, you'll see that, for the most part, the characters are all balanced. It's due to tricks like Wavedashing and L-canceling that made it unbalanced. This is probably part of the reason Sakurai took it out. Now, it may be more balanced. That may be what they've been doing for so long.
Even in casual play tiers exist, they are just not discussed because it doesn't really matter. It doesn't take long for someone new to the game to see that Pichu is bad, or Bowser is bad while on the other end of things, Shiek is amazing.
 

TheManaLord

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The thing is, people will spew out words without knowing what they are saying, or if they even know the meanings of those words. Heres a good example. Socrates(a famous philosopher) asked a man, "Is that a horse". The man said "Of course that is a horse, are you blind?" In truth, he didn't know what he was saying. Yes, it was a horse, but he didn't really know why. Later, the man ask Socrates "OK, why is it a horse". He replies "That is a quadruped with deep hooves and a thin, wispy, tail".

People here do the same thing. They say "tiers will exist" but do they even know why they do, or will exist in Brawl. That is the reality some may face.

I think your theory (OP) may be right. In Melee, the game was unbalanced in the tourney sense only, but due to framing, they think it was unbalanced in general. That was not the case. In normal settings, you'll see that, for the most part, the characters are all balanced. It's due to tricks like Wavedashing and L-canceling that made it unbalanced. This is probably part of the reason Sakurai took it out. Now, it may be more balanced. That may be what they've been doing for so long.

I would not doubt this is the case. With more diversity in the characters (which we have heard from others) it may be that characters can counter each other. This will certainly help team play, and make more mindgames in choosing the characters, like a rock-paper-scissor system, which will require tournamnt goers to be able to play a wealth of characters.
L cancelling actually balanced the game.

Silly goose. Everyone had more opportunities, so many characters would have been LITERALLY unplayable due to the lag of their moves, but l cancelling gave everyone the ability to progress into the echelon of playability.
 

ShadowLink84

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Even in casual play tiers exist, they are just not discussed because it doesn't really matter. It doesn't take long for someone new to the game to see that Pichu is bad, or Bowser is bad while on the other end of things, Shiek is amazing.

No just NO!

Tier ONLY come into play during that high level of play.
If it is regular casual play it can be argued that it relies on the skills of the players.


L cancelling actually balanced the game.

Silly goose. Everyone had more opportunities, so many characters would have been LITERALLY unplayable due to the lag of their moves, but l cancelling gave everyone the ability to progress into the echelon of playability.
Not quite sure what youmean by balancing the game.
Yes it did significantly cut the lag but it never eliminated it entirely.
If you use L cancel Link's Dair you can see that the lag is still significant enough to leave him open to attack.

Characters like Marth and Roy benefited even more since it cut down whatever lag they had after an attack and reduced it to zero allowing them to immediately attack afterwards.
Yeah it made bad characters better but it made the good characters even better as well even if it wasn't as obvious to the eye.
 

sv3

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VA
THIS THREAD IS POORLY TITLED.

I already talked about this in my second post, but there still are 3 pages of misinterpretations afterwards. He is NOT talking about whether or not tiers will exist in Brawl. The content of his post is saying that it appears to him that the developers tried to make the game more balanced this time around. Whether intentional or unintentional, it was very obvious that Pichu or Bowser were not on the level of Marth or Falco. This happens in all sorts of games, not just Melee, but typically those games end up with massive separation between the 'good' and 'bad' characters in their tiers list. Roll is garbage in MvC2, Pachirisu will always get its *** kicked by Ho-Oh, etc.

It's the same with Melee- you can see that some characters are obviously inferior to others at lower levels of play without the need for competitions. What he's saying is that such characters with obvious inferiorities do not exist in Brawl, which means that it's much more likely that more characters will be included in the viable category for competitive play. It also gives the indication that the developers didn't leave the game like they left Melee in terms of the usefulness of each character in winning.

The discovery of wavedashing, L cancelling, etc did not cause this at all. They caused the eventual tiers list to develop, but they did not show how poorly balanced Melee was initially. That is irrespective to tiers. However, the discovery of such advanced techniques in Brawl may cause a tiers list to become very varied like it was in Melee. At least in Brawl, though, we aren't given large discrepancies between characters right off the bat.
 

killbeast301

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We all know that by the end of Melee, there were many various characters that had distinct advantages over others. If you pit a Fox user and a Yoshi user of the same skill level, at least 9 out of 10 people would expect Fox to win. While the concept of tiers has been debated multiple times.

That said, I and about 15 other people have been playing Brawl extensively in the past two days, and we have come to a few conclusions about the content of it. From what we all have observed and noticed, there seems to be very few characters that are considered worse than others. Perhaps it could be because of our relative inexperience with the game, but from us playing almost all the characters we have unlocked, we could see that while some characters were good some of the time, they were in turn weak against others.

There were two main examples that we noticed in the playing that we did. The first example was Sonic, who was picked up by Voodoo, one of the players. He was getting rather good with him, or as good as one can get after only two days of play. However, after I tried out a new character, Lucario, I was able to see that Lucario's moveset gave considerable difficulty for Sonic.

After we made the observation, we obviously watched for more evidence of the concept. We had two major Sonic players there, and both of them had difficulties against Lucario, but when I went back to the character I have more experience with, Pit, the disparity of the characters could be seen. The other major character was Snake, who's moveset was completely unique from all others. His explosives made some difficulty for Lucario, who could be killed at below 80% with one of Snake's forward smashes, while easily surviving at over 150% against many others. However, when Samus played Snake, her projectiles could easily counter Snake's explosives, creating an advantage that could not be fully related to skill.

While the examples I gave were not the most fleshed out, it seems that in Brawl, no one character will dominate. We have not discovered a single character that did not have some sort of counter, and while more versatile characters such as Pokemon Trainer and Shiek/Zelda may have some sort of advantage against more characters, every character style seems to be balanced and have both strengths and weaknesses.

If my theory ends up correct, then the competetive scene will be different, and possibly more varied than the Melee one. If you feel that you've seen examples of this, or if you have any evidence that disproves it, please post and I'll try to respond.
Melee was the same way, only less pronounced, since some characters had many more advantages than dissadvantages (and vice-versa). For example, Samus, while being lower on the tier list, could easily take down Marth, because of her projectiles, and Marth's lack thereof. It's just that in brawl, power vs. speed is more balanced, and the tiers (for now) seem to be less prominent. This way, characters seem to have more equal numbers of advantages and dissadvantages, and the "counter system" is more noticable.
 

MajinSweet

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No just NO!

Tier ONLY come into play during that high level of play.
If it is regular casual play it can be argued that it relies on the skills of the players.
And what decides it when the players are equal skill? The characters. Me and my friends were casual for a long time and we ended up using characters that are generally higher tier, we didn't go to tourneys, we didn't know advanced techs, we didn't even know about smashboards. But we did know that Marth was way better than the majority of characters, and Bowser was almost unplayable due to his laggy attacks, slow speed and easy as hell to combo. Its much harder to make a tier list at lower levels of play, but even casuals get a feel for who is good and who isn't. Melee does not have balance, it may appear so at the very earliest of play, but after that it becomes obvious.
 

Samochan

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In brawl it seems characters have advantages and disadvantages, while in ssbm top tiers had all the advantages but seemingly so little disadvantgaes it made them top of the cast, meaning they had it all while rest of the cast lacked some of the good qualities like power, speed, comboes, recovery etc. In brawl this doesn't seem to be the case, speedy chars certainly can't KO people at around 50% anymore unlike some power characters like dedede. In brawl counterpicking could become even more important than it was in ssbm if we take account some serious character advantages + stage advantages. It would be also quite neccesary to master more than 2 characters in order to compete against the wide range of characters in brawl, since it seems every character is usable thus far, while on ssbm you could do well with one top tier character even if you just could handle the hardest matchups for your character. Kirby doesn't interest fox player much in ssbm, but sure could in brawl if both players know what they're doing. Brawl might turn out to be quite like pokemon, where every pokemon has it's own counters and the counters have their counters etc. There will always be tiers, sure (like seemingly marth is too good now, peach is balanced but not quite as good as him, rob is ownage... for example) but I hope they won't be as prominent, meaning characters that have advantgaes will also have disadvantages so they're not broken.
 

TheManaLord

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No just NO!

Tier ONLY come into play during that high level of play.
If it is regular casual play it can be argued that it relies on the skills of the players.




Not quite sure what youmean by balancing the game.
Yes it did significantly cut the lag but it never eliminated it entirely.
If you use L cancel Link's Dair you can see that the lag is still significant enough to leave him open to attack.

Characters like Marth and Roy benefited even more since it cut down whatever lag they had after an attack and reduced it to zero allowing them to immediately attack afterwards.
Yeah it made bad characters better but it made the good characters even better as well even if it wasn't as obvious to the eye.
no crap?

l cancelled smash is more balanced than no l cancelled smash
 

joeysmash

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In Casual Play, tiers do exsist. whenever i play with some friends (who don't really use ATs) if they choose fox or other high tier, they DO have an advantage.

As for Brawl, will tiers be in. I feel certain characters may be SLIGHTLY advantages over others, it will not be NEARLY as massive as the gap between characters were in melee.
 

UltiMario

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Tiers will probably stay functional, but it will be a heck of a lot harder to make the list
 

SmashChu

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L cancelling actually balanced the game.

Silly goose. Everyone had more opportunities, so many characters would have been LITERALLY unplayable due to the lag of their moves, but l cancelling gave everyone the ability to progress into the echelon of playability.
Not true. It helps certain characters, so it does not balance the game, not even in it's base definition. As some said, Marth (on of the top teirs) gets an edge from it.

In Casual Play, tiers do exsist. whenever i play with some friends (who don't really use ATs) if they choose fox or other high tier, they DO have an advantage.
However, I have seen characters like Link, Luigi, and Ness do well, and even have an edge over others. It maybe confirmation bias (where you look only for things that confirm your belief). There is also a reason a lot of newer players love Roy.
 

Dark Sonic

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Not true. It helps certain characters, so it does not balance the game, not even in it's base definition. As some said, Marth (on of the top teirs) gets an edge from it.
Well, it sure helped Gannon move up in the world.:laugh: And if you think a little, it actually helped slower characters more than faster characters because it cut more lag off of their moves than the faster ones. Marth got better like you said, but Shiek didn't. Falco moved up a lot more than Fox did in comparison. So yeah, tournaments went from having all Shieks to having Shiek, Fox, Marth, and Falco, with the occasional Peach, Captain Falcon, and maybe Gannondorf. That seems like an improvement to me.

However, I have seen characters like Link, Luigi, and Ness do well, and even have an edge over others. It maybe confirmation bias (where you look only for things that confirm your belief). There is also a reason a lot of newer players love Roy.
They like Roy because they don't know how to space correctly and thus can't utilize Marth's power (which he's actually stronger than Roy). Link, Luigi, and Ness do well because they just **** low tier characters in general, but if your opponent has any idea of spacing then those guys get owned. Ness is just wierd. IMO, the reason Ness is so low is because of his matchups against the high tiers, because he just owns low tier tournaments.:laugh:
 
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