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No Tiers in Brawl: Theory of Character Counters

Dither

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
178
Location
College Park, MD
We all know that by the end of Melee, there were many various characters that had distinct advantages over others. If you pit a Fox user and a Yoshi user of the same skill level, at least 9 out of 10 people would expect Fox to win. While the concept of tiers has been debated multiple times.

That said, I and about 15 other people have been playing Brawl extensively in the past two days, and we have come to a few conclusions about the content of it. From what we all have observed and noticed, there seems to be very few characters that are considered worse than others. Perhaps it could be because of our relative inexperience with the game, but from us playing almost all the characters we have unlocked, we could see that while some characters were good some of the time, they were in turn weak against others.

There were two main examples that we noticed in the playing that we did. The first example was Sonic, who was picked up by Voodoo, one of the players. He was getting rather good with him, or as good as one can get after only two days of play. However, after I tried out a new character, Lucario, I was able to see that Lucario's moveset gave considerable difficulty for Sonic.

After we made the observation, we obviously watched for more evidence of the concept. We had two major Sonic players there, and both of them had difficulties against Lucario, but when I went back to the character I have more experience with, Pit, the disparity of the characters could be seen. The other major character was Snake, who's moveset was completely unique from all others. His explosives made some difficulty for Lucario, who could be killed at below 80% with one of Snake's forward smashes, while easily surviving at over 150% against many others. However, when Samus played Snake, her projectiles could easily counter Snake's explosives, creating an advantage that could not be fully related to skill.

While the examples I gave were not the most fleshed out, it seems that in Brawl, no one character will dominate. We have not discovered a single character that did not have some sort of counter, and while more versatile characters such as Pokemon Trainer and Shiek/Zelda may have some sort of advantage against more characters, every character style seems to be balanced and have both strengths and weaknesses.

If my theory ends up correct, then the competetive scene will be different, and possibly more varied than the Melee one. If you feel that you've seen examples of this, or if you have any evidence that disproves it, please post and I'll try to respond.
 

sv3

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
141
Location
VA
It depends, and it's still way too early to be talking about such things. All it takes is for one little trick to be discovered that characters can take advantage of and all of a sudden some characters are dominating tournaments.

Still, it doesn't seem like there are obvious inferiorities like there were in Melee.
 

Something706

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 19, 2007
Messages
2
I sure hope you're right. I want these tournaments to not consist of 3 characters being played and have ALL (or most at least) characters thrown in there and kicking rear end :D
 

Betaz

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 28, 2005
Messages
742
Location
Auburn, WA
Thank god for this... It really is annoying sometimes when your continually fighting against the same character over and over... overall hopefully we can see at least one of every character at tournamets and such....this also hopefully means we will be seeing a much more diverse online play

YAY ^.^
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
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Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
Tiers will always exist.

This is the one great truth of fighting games.

And you can't tier a game after 5 days. You just can't.

Unless the game is super shallow. In which case you shouldn't waste your time playing it.
 

MasterCheeze

Smash Journeyman
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Nov 17, 2007
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352
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Fargo, ND
NNID
MasterCheeze
3DS FC
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I really do hope that everyone's equal. A reason I dislike Marth is because almost EVERYONE had to play him in Melee just because he had an advantage over almost everyone. What? Can't win without those advantages? I'm hoping to see more Pikachu, DK, and Bowser in Brawl tournaments.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
Tiers will exist.
QFT.

You guys don't seem to get what tiers really are. Tiers are not a ranking of characters based on potential (which many people wrongly believe). Tiers are simply a ranking of characters based on tournament results. In order for a character to become high tier, they must place better than the other characters in tournaments.

Tiers will exist because it's based off of a real statistic (how high does this character place on average).

That being said, they will certainly fluctuate for a year or two after the first one, then they'll probably stabalize until someone makes some huge discovery that makes people place higher with specific characters than they did before (like L-canceling moving Fox and Falco up).
 

Hokkaido

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
219
I agree with those who say that Tiers aren't established quickly, I really think it'll be a while before we see Tiers for Brawl. Perhaps it will take longer than usual since it's fresh (and nobody seems to be completely used to the gameplay yet... no, not even "the experts"), so maybe we can enjoy the time we have with no tiers :p
 

Epok

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 5, 2005
Messages
590
Location
Grand Rapids MI
Tires will happen, it's just a nature of the game. But I also think there is some truth to what your saying . I personally no longer believe in maining a single character. I plan on being good with as many characters as possible. i don't wanna be just a good "Link" player i wanna be a good "Smash Bros." Player. Plus at tournaments it will give me much more options with counter picking.
 

Betaz

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 28, 2005
Messages
742
Location
Auburn, WA
:/

I actually would rather main one character...It would be a really good challenge to be able to win against someone who is assentially(sp?) your characters "counter"
 

sv3

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
141
Location
VA
QFT.

You guys don't seem to get what tiers really are. Tiers are not a ranking of characters based on potential (which many people wrongly believe). Tiers are simply a ranking of characters based on tournament results. In order for a character to become high tier, they must place better than the other characters in tournaments.

Tiers will exist because it's based off of a real statistic (how high does this character place on average).

That being said, they will certainly fluctuate for a year or two after the first one, then they'll probably stabalize until someone makes some huge discovery that makes people place higher with specific characters than they did before (like L-canceling moving Fox and Falco up).
I don't think you got the point of this thread. It wasn't about tiers existing or not- I'm not even sure why someone brought that up, though that could be the result of just reading the topic title (it is misleading).

The point was that there doesn't appear to be any great discrepancies between certain characters. Within a short period of time of SSBM coming out, characters like Pichu were obviously never going to be a tournament quality character in Melee. What he's saying here is that it doesn't look like such characters are going to be in this game, which leads to a couple of things. First, that means no character will be immediately disqualified from serious tournament consideration until an actual tiers list is developed. That leads to the second thing- that it looks like they tried slightly harder this time to balance characters. Just because tiers exist in every game doesn't mean that they exist to the point that they do in Melee.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
You guys don't get it do you? There won't be any tiers until we've had a fairly large amount of brawl tournaments. It may year or more before we have enough results to make any kind of correlation. Tier lists are not lists telling you whose good. They just tell you who people are currently winning with.

And how do tiers affect anyone who's not playing competatively? Why should you care what characters are placing high in tournaments?

edit: posted when above guy was posting. I was specifically clarifying for anyone who didn't have the correct understanding of tiers. Not neccesarily the OP.
 

TheManaLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
6,283
Location
Upstate NY
Tiers will exist.

Tiers are not just a representation of tournament standings in a literal fashion, the tournament standings project the fact that certain characters are better than others.

This is fact.

Tiers exist. The characters are not equal, some are great, some are good, some are okay, some suck, some are garbage.

This is the case.

Tiers exist.
 

teh_spamerer

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
4,067
Location
Good luck Mario
Tiers will always exist.

This is the one great truth of fighting games.

And you can't tier a game after 5 days. You just can't.

Unless the game is super shallow. In which case you shouldn't waste your time playing it.
QFT, GJ EL telling it how it is. There will be a tier list for brawl.
 

orintemple

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 5, 2005
Messages
1,237
Location
Chicago, IL
The OP sounds like he is describing matchups, which is not the same as tier lists and doesn't really have anything to do with it directly. Tiers are based on tourney results, matchups are based on character attributes.
 

S2

Smash Lord
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Apr 4, 2004
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Socal 805 (aka Hyrule)
Tiers exist in all fighting games.

The simple fact that the characters are different, means they are unequal. Even if the gap between them is small.

Even a brilliantly balanced game will still have a tier list. The goal of any fighter is to get a tier list, where the gap is so small that the lowest tier character can still potentially beat the top tier. Melee was not like this at all. Some games like Guilty Gear are getting closer with every iteration.


Character counters are taken into consideration when making a tier list. But tiers are based on a character's overall ranking against everyone else. It's not uncommon to see a high tiered character who is countered by a lower tier one. The reason one character is higher is due to their advantage over many characters - which outweighs their weakness to just one.
 

True Fool

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
524
Location
Vegas
I've always relied on the counter-picks far more than the tier-list. I think they're much more important. I am hoping that we see match-ups more like 5-5, 4-6, instead of 8-2, 9-1, A-0, but either way, it's still more important to me than the tier-list.
 

MetalGearLink

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 8, 2005
Messages
195
Location
west covina CA, USA
tiers beging to get noticed at whit intermediate players, long before me and my friends dicovered smashboards, the chararters we belived were the best and the worst were almost the same as the melee tier list, melee was way unvalanced....

brawl seems to be more balanced, top tiers from melee were nerfed, but not as much as kirby or pikachu from SSB64 and lower tieres were buffed, but not much so they didn't become top this time

terere will always be tieres, but maybe more balanced tahan melee
 

Finch

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 3, 2007
Messages
1,730
Location
Tallahassee, FL
Every character in melee had a counter as well. Just because some characters in brawl are wrecked by some and do well against others doesn't mean that there will be no tiers. In fact it proves quite the opposite.
 

trademark0013

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Messages
2,067
Location
South Africa, playing in the World Cup
i decided not to read any of this thread and post blindly:

tiers exist. deal with it.
a character can beat another character if the player is better/the other is worse
thats life/the nature of fighting games
if u dont like it, play halo
 

Noypi_GjD

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
473
The idea that certain characters counter each other further prove that tiers exist. Sorry but unless everyone was uniform in every aspect, tiers will continue to exist.
 

FSLink

Smash Journeyman
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FSLink
Personally, I just believe that the gap between tiers will be smaller than it was in Melee (Like a low tier character in Brawl would probably not have as much difficulty fighting a character that's higher tier'd). Too early to call though.
 

Saunic

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 23, 2004
Messages
19
Location
France
Tiers are simply a ranking of characters based on tournament results. In order for a character to become high tier, they must place better than the other characters in tournaments..
Tiers are a theoric study, but some players like to present a representative tier list by looking at tournament results.

This is not the same thing, you can take the exemple of 3S, in which Yang is not very played, but is the 5th top tier (while RX is pwning everyone with Urien, a mid-tier). Also, in Vampire Savior, Zabel is supposed to be the god-tier of the game, but because of the difficulty to master his moves, combos and techniques, he is not, representatively, as good as the second top tier.

As many people said above, tiers will exist, even if the game is balanced way enough, everyone will discover that some characters are slightly better, ans that others are less (again, the exemple of Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo is great : a very balanced game, with no representative tiers, though they exist). As far as I've been playing SSB, I find the game way more balanced than a lot of fighting games, there's no character which is totally sucky and unplayable, there is absolutely no reason people should overplay tops.
 

EvolveOrDie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
71
Location
Raleigh, NC
I think that quite possibly the point of this thread has been lost because it's not about tiers at all, they were mentioned and maybe the OP didn't realize or made a mistake but he seems to be making more of a reference to character match ups, I don't want to assume on the part of the OP. While tiers and match ups do have a relation they are not interchangeable but even still this deviates from the point of the thread.

To get back on track I'd like to say that I agree the characters seem to be built around a system of character counters. I do believe that Sakurai and his development team thought about it and were displeased not that competitive play did not use every character frequently but rather that in their eyes some of the characters were unusable at a competitive level. I fully agree that characters were designed not to nullify another characters chances to win but reduce or alter the necessary strategy to win so that skill is not removed but required to be applied differently. If I had to make a guess to beat a characters counter character you have to outwit them in the most basic of ways by doing what works.
 

Finn Macool

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 27, 2007
Messages
104
there will be tiers in brawl but the counter system will be more important, it doesnt matter if a character wins more against most chars but if he wins against the one your using
and counters do affect the tier list because if a char has an effective counter then they will win less tournies and therefore be lower on the list
 

Mama

Smash Ace
Joined
May 21, 2007
Messages
776
Location
Richmond California (northern)
I agree that things do seem more balanced. It seems a lot of characters may turn out good and we may not have that many outright bad characters. However tiers are something that exist in all fighting games. Brawl has only been out a short while and while characters inherent abilities are starting to be explored, the meta game is only just beginning to take off. Not everyone is playing Brawl the same way everyone is trying to find out what works when and where and what new things are there to play with. Its really cool to be seeing this first hand as I was late to Melee's competitive scene.

If the characters are as unique and as balanced as they seem now later on down the line then I think what we'll see is a tier list that changes very very often at best. No tiers in a fighting game doesn't seem very feasible without years and years of study and tweaking and even then it may be impossible. I do think that Brawl may have a larger number of tournament worthy characers though.
 

FilibusterRhymes

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 18, 2008
Messages
36
Besides the facts that the game has now been out a week and the majority of the people talking about it haven't played it, it annoys me that we're trying to force competitive play immediately onto Brawl.
Why are we looking for tiers when no one has mastered a single character? Advanced techniques instead of basic strategies?Right now is the time for friendlies. Things will lay themselves out naturally. We were used to the feel of things because of six years of play, but we've got to approach this as a new game. Casual evolves into competitive.

For a scene analogy, think of the Ice Climbers. They were low tier until Chu picked them up and showed their potential. Every character right now is Ice Climbers. For newcomers, there is no tier list to guide their character choice. We're all newcomers. Pick characters and make them good.

Anyway, I hope the tier list in this game will be much less noticeable. Some characters might be easier to win with, but I doubt they will dominate because of it. I just want the least amount of unplayable characters.

Oh, and have fun. That's what it's about.
 

Nilok

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
479
Location
Oregon, West Linn
I understand why a lot of the tourney people are flaming about the "Tiers" becouse of the title, however if you read the main post, you will realized that he miss understood the meaning of "Tiers" and was never the point of this thread.

Back on topic, it will be very interesting to see how fully this is flushed out. If Sakurai and his team added in a system were a character is at a disadvantage against another character, it will be very interesting to say the least. As well as give that person a goal, beat that character who has the advantage over you at it's best to get closer to mastering your own character. Tourney people may have to learn and memorize this massive Rock, Paper, Scissors system.

Back on "Tiers", if this system is really implemented, it may cause some problems with the "Tiers" mainly becouse if X character can beat Y character with ease, and Z character can beat Y character with ease and Z character and beat X character with ease. The Tier list will have a hard time stabilizing and may make the "Tiers" slightly more fuzzy then what we currently have today.
 
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