Social NintenZone Social 4 - Bring It In, Guys!

[Opossum]

Vegans call us meatheads because we have the NERVE to eat meat as if we humans are omnivores or something

I've never heard it in that context personally. I've always heard it as an insult to rude/idiotic-but-muscular people. The ones who'd fall under the "dumb jock antagonist from every 80s movie" stereotype, basically.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I wonder what vegans think of bears.

Heaven help the poor cats some vegans try to put on their diets.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/24/kitten-vegan-diet-nearly-dies_n_3644213.html

I ****ing hate vegans who do this. It's outright animal cruelty as cats and dogs are CARNIVORES. They NEED to eat meat and forcing them to eat something that isn't in their natural diet is if a daycare forced a child to eat sand and seawater

 

[Wolfie557]

I ****ing hate vegans who do this. It's outright animal cruelty as cats and dogs are CARNIVORES. They NEED to eat meat and forcing them to eat something that isn't in their natural diet is if a daycare forced a child to eat sand and seawater

Never heard of this before but those people need to go to a doctor. Either that or get themselves a herbivore pet.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Never heard of this before but those people need to go to a doctor. Either that or get themselves a herbivore pet.

With doctor, you mean psychiatrist or something?

Btw, nothing against vegans/vegetarians as long as they respect my choices, when I had a vegetarian friend over, I kept nagging about it at my mother so she wouldn't cook something with meats

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Some vegans act like they are in a cult

They try to convert everyone around them into their way of life. Even animals apparently

And they also believe those that aren't are evil, immoral

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Some vegans act like they are in a cult

They try to convert everyone around them into their way of life. Even animals apparently

And they also believe those that aren't are evil, immoral

Which is precisely the problem. As omnivores, we can eat most things, meat is a necessity due to proteins, though luckily for them there are substitutions like tofu

 

[Ura]

If Link is a Vegan in BoTW will he go around being obnoxious telling everyone that he's better than them? I think that would make for an interesting storyline.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

If Link is a Vegan in BoTW will he go around being obnoxious telling everyone that he's better than them? I think that would make for an interesting storyline.

We've already seen him hunting down and killing boars so we're safe

How CAN Link be a Vegan though, since he can't talk

 

[Ura]

We've already seen him hunting down and killing boars so we're safe

How CAN Link be a Vegan though, since he can't talk

That will be apart of this Zelda game breaking normal conventions of course.
----------
On the topic of LoZ I was playing ALTTP the other day and I thought to myself that it was a missed opportunity that this track didn't make it's way to OoT like a lot of other ALTTP tracks

Would have loved to hear how it would sound on the N64. Dunno where it would be played though. Maybe Aetheri would have a good idea where it would.

 

[Aetheri]

I looked through #Nintendo on Twitter and saw a link to an article about Breath of the Wild letting you be vegan. Out of curiosity I decided to click on it to see what the comments might be. . .





It's nice that they're happy, but I had concerns about the possibility of people not being pleased unless Link could ONLY be vegan, and while they partially avoid that both comments make a point to mention that they'd be happier with no meat eating at all that makes me concerned that sentiments could blossom into the kind of reaction I was worried about.

Also . . .meatheads?

They're uncomfortable hunting yet they'd have absolutely no problem setting a dozen bokoblins on fire....

 

[Deleted member]

How CAN Link be a Vegan though, since he can't talk

Someone get a salad because this beef just got roasted

 

[SegaNintendoUbisoft]

The new Mario and Luigi game looks awesome.

Spoiler

http://curchack.deviantart.com/

 

[Opossum]

They're uncomfortable hunting yet they'd have absolutely no problem setting a dozen bokoblins on fire....

There's a big difference there. The difference relies on the fact that Bokoblins are a fictional sentient race that's actively trying to harm you, while things like deer are just there, not doing anything to you, and are actual animals. There's less realism involved in killing a Bokoblin.

It's why I'm personally glad hunting is entirely optional.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

There's a big difference there. The difference relies on the fact that Bokoblins are a fictional sentient race that's actively trying to harm you, while things like deer are just there, not doing anything to you, and are actual animals. There's less realism involved in killing a Bokoblin.

The animals are fictional too though. They only vaguely look like real life counterparts

Besides, Ganon himself is a boar

 

[Opossum]

The animals are fictional too though. They only vaguely look like real life counterparts

Besides, Ganon himself is a boar

The issue isn't just species or appearance, it's sentience. Ganon's a boar, but it's not like you'd find him in the woods foraging for truffles. He's sentient and trying to kill you.

 

[Deleted member]

Even those have an art style reminiscent of the common Japanese "super-deformed" style a lot of mascots over there have.

Google "chibi" on images and you'll see plenty of similar art styles to Wind Waker.

Nendoroid figures pretty much embody that concept too.

Also, this:

The thing is, what IS "anime style?"

The industry varies very widely in styles, from Bebop, to Berserk, to Sailor Moon, to K-On, to Lucky Star, to Monster, to Claymore, to Prison School, to One Piece, to Dragonball, each and every one of those varies very drastically from the other, and there is no one way to pin it exactly. Then you have Western Cartoons which have been animated by Japanese studios, like Swat Kats, to Transformers, to Teen Titans, to the Powerpuff girls, and likewise, you then have western shows that take up Oriental influences like The Last Airbender and Samurai Jack, and the lines between "anime" and "not anime" begin to really blur.

Moreover, you have to keep in mind that Japanese animation began by copying French animation techniques, and then Osamu Tezuka copied the style of Disney with it's characters featuring large eyes to create Astro boy, and now modern Disney copying styles from Kyoani, and it all becomes a jumbled mess.

The west has always influence the east since its conception, and the east, having the largest industry, has always animated for the west, and moreover, influenced it back.

So, keeping all that in mind.

What is "anime style?"

Saying "Zelda has always been influenced by anime style" because the look of the series has donned the look of Japanese artists doesn't mean it's always had an "anime style." Artists in the East tend to influence each other a lot, so all modern oriental art styles tend to share similarities. Whether they be for animation, or vidya. This doesn't mean that they're purpsely trying to do an "anime style", it's just the way people draw over there because of their artistic influences.

Compare the art of Twilight Princess with its more realistic look and proportions, and detailed character designs, it could be compared to Moria's Berserk, which itself has very strong western influences in style. Likewise with WW as people have brought up, the hyper-deformed cartoon style would be more welcome in the west whose animation industry tends to prefer super deformed and simplistic designs due to lower budgets and tighter schedules, see:

Spoiler

9

Of course Japanese studios are gonna be influenced by Japanese artists, that's what they're around all the time. However, it should be noted that in this specific instance, Aonuma has said that they specifically went out of their way to seek a more "anime-like style." What he means by that exactly? Beats me. But I presume he's not referring to Japanese animation exclusively, but rather all animation in general due to their use of cell shading, which is very common in games trying to port the 2D look of animation onto 3D models.

 

[Aetheri]

There's a big difference there. The difference relies on the fact that Bokoblins are a fictional sentient race that's actively trying to harm you, while things like deer are just there, not doing anything to you, and are actual animals. There's less realism involved in killing a Bokoblin.

It's why I'm personally glad hunting is entirely optional.

Killing is killing...sentience or not...in the game whether its hunting or slaying enemies you're killing a living thing for your own survival...

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

The issue isn't just species or appearance, it's sentience. Ganon's a boar, but it's not like you'd find him in the woods foraging for truffles. He's sentient and trying to kill you.

I don't think it's the killing of the sentient animal that matters

A sentient animal knows what death is. That seems more cruel to me

It's more people are objected to eat the animal, even if it's not real. And see no reason to kill something that's not trying to kill them.

Would they be objected to killing one of those non sentient animals if they were trying to kill you?

 

[Wario Bros.]

You can turn Link into a vegan in BotW?

**** that! I ain't making Link a wuss when I can make him MAN!

 

[Schnee117]

The word people are looking for here is "Intention"
"Sentient" implies being able to perceive and feel things and last I checked wild animals could definitely do that as can most, if not all, other living things. They just don't intend to attack you unless they have a reason to like being provoked so they see you as a threat.

a daycare forced a child to eat sand

So that's why Anakin hates sand.

 

[Opossum]

Killing is killing...sentience or not...in the game whether its hunting or slaying enemies you're killing a living thing for your own survival...

And that in itself brings up the bigger moral issue: killing the harmless, non-sentient beasts isn't for survival, as you have the option to seek out fruit instead. Killing let's say, the boar, is a conscious choice to take the life of something that wasn't going to harm you. A Bokoblin is intent on harming you, so killing it is an act of self-defense. Sentience and intent are important in this case.

 

[ChikoLad]

Wait, people have an issue with the hunting in BotW?

I mean it's to be expected. The title of the game sort of says everything.

As far as real life goes, I don't condone hunting as a past time, but not because I think it's unethical, I just simply don't like the idea. I wouldn't do anything about it though if someone did do it.

Hunting for survival is a different story, because well, you must do what needs to be done to survive. Our fellow animals do this too and are well aware of what they are doing so it's fair game.

In a video game, it makes no difference, it's all fiction. I can understand people being put off by it if it was realistic and you had to cut them up, like we see in the new God of War trailer. But in Zelda, the animals literally disappear in a cartoony puff of smoke when you kill them, and a steak or something is left behind. It's not graphic at all so I don't see why people would be bothered.

 

[Opossum]

The word people are looking for here is "Intention"
"Sentient" implies being able to perceive and feel things and last I checked wild animals could definitely do that as can most, if not all, other living things. They just don't intend to attack you unless they have a reason to like being provoked so they see you as a threat.



So that's why Anakin hates sand.

Editing is damn near impossible on the 3DS but yeah, that's what I meant.

 

[Deleted member]

Or we could just understand that living beings eat other living beings all the time, it's just nature, you can't change it
Don't like eating meat? Fine, some predator will eat it for you
Even then, eating plants is still killing but I don't see anyone complaining about that

 

[Deleted member]

The word people are looking for here is "Intention"
"Sentient" implies being able to perceive and feel things and last I checked wild animals could definitely do that as can most, if not all, other living things. They just don't intend to attack you unless they have a reason to like being provoked so they see you as a threat.



So that's why Anakin hates sand.

It's up in the air if animals are sentient or not.

As sentience isn't just "being able to feel things" but rather, being able to feel not emotions, but ineffable feelings. Such as the sensation you get when you see a sunrise in the middle of the wilderness. Or when you look up at the clear night sky, and see the Milky Way sprawled out before you. It's something that as far as we know it now, is exclusively part of the human experience.

Sentience could be what you call "the final step in the evolution of human-like intelligence," and why many are unsure whether or not AI will ever be truly human-like or not, because while we've been able to create AI that shows consciousness and self awareness (yes, we've achieved that already, look it up), because we have a very firm understanding of those concepts and can replicate the psychology through mathematical proofs and equations, and all the same, creating an AI that could "feel"emotions is also doable, since emotions are but chemicals firing off into your neuron receptors, sentience is the one thing we're not sure if we could achieve because modern science doesn't fully understand what sentience actually even IS yet. We just know it exists.

Sentience isn't "being able to feel angry" since that's merely emotion and anger, happiness, love, fear, and sadness are all very instinctual and very strongly tied to genetic programming. Sentience is something much more complex and difficult to understand. Sentience is hearing a song playing, and it stirring certain emotions inside you. It's why art and music move us.

So when it comes to animals, I'd say more complex animals can feel emotion. Simpler animals like insects and reptiles obviously don't and can't, but mammals certainly can and do. But sentience, that's still up for debate till we can fully break down what sentience actually is.

 

[Aetheri]

And that in itself brings up the bigger moral issue: killing the harmless, non-sentient beasts isn't for survival, as you have the option to seek out fruit instead. Killing let's say, the boar, is a conscious choice to take the life of something that wasn't going to harm you. A Bokoblin is intent on harming you, so killing it is an act of self-defense. Sentience and intent are important in this case.

Ok...first we're talking about a game in a medieval fantasy setting...the middle ages were a time when there was no difference in food other than whether or not you hunt or gather it...

Second when it comes to sustaining yourself to survive it isn't necessarily about choice...for the sake of the game the player can outright refuse to eat anything if they so wish...but we're talking about the idea behind the survival of the fittest predator vs. prey...killing to eat is no crueler than taking out a camp of bokoblins considering the player has the choice to completely avoid the camp or run away if they're spotted....

No I'd rather stop arguing about this considering my initial post was more of a joke than anything...considering this is about hunting and killing in a video game...

 

[Ura]

I guess I should have never brought up BotW in my vegan joke lol. Somehow things I post lead to ethical debates. It's a thing of mystery.

 

[Kingslime304]

Surprised that such an Old meme can quite work:

 

[Opossum]

Ok...first we're talking about a game in a medieval fantasy setting...the middle ages were a time when there was no difference in food other than whether or not you hunt or gather it...

Second when it comes to sustaining yourself to survive it isn't necessarily about choice...for the sake of the game the player can outright refuse to eat anything if they so wish...but we're talking about the idea behind the survival of the fittest predator vs. prey...killing to eat is no crueler than taking out a camp of bokoblins considering the player has the choice to completely avoid the camp or run away if they're spotted....

No I'd rather stop arguing about this considering my initial post was more of a joke than anything...considering this is about hunting and killing in a video game...

And my point is that I don't get how people can't see how that'd be uncomfortable for some. No one's denying it's historically accurate, but when playing the game, you, the player, are controlling Link and making him hunt while you yourself are in the modern day. Some people are just more empathetic toward wildlife, especially ones that are the same as or highly close to real world animals, and would rather not kill in a game that never relied on it before (as opposed to something like Pikmin where it was there from the start). Some people just can't seem to grasp that though.

 

[Zzuxon]

When I play, I'm not killing bokoblins until they try to attack me first.
They are intelligent, so simply killing them is wrong and a violation of their rights. But if they attack me first they are violating Link's rights, and I'm justified in killing them in self defense.
Boars and deer have no rights, because they aren't intelligent and are incapable of understanding or respecting the rights of others. As such, I have no problem with killing them.

I know that we aren't talking about real people here, but I like my virtual behavior to follow my actual code of ethics.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

It's storming outside like crazy

Hail, rain, thunder

My power has already flickered

And my point is that I don't get how people can't see how that'd be uncomfortable for some. No one's denying it's historically accurate, but when playing the game, you, the player, are controlling Link and making him hunt while you yourself are in the modern day. Some people are just more empathetic toward wildlife, especially ones that are the same as or highly close to real world animals, and would rather not kill in a game that never relied on it before (as opposed to something like Pikmin where it was there from the start). Some people just can't seem to grasp that though.

It's more I don't see how people can feel empathy toward something that doesn't exist.

I honestly don't care whether someone decides not to hunt down animals in a game or not. They are intentionally limiting their options and whatever.

But they also don't seem to have empathy toward their enemies, which is a bit hypocritical. It's not like Bokoblins are going to hunt down Link if he doesn't seek them out

Why is a boars life any more sacred than a Bokoblin? Especially since Boars are the symbol of Ganon

 

[Aetheri]

And my point is that I don't get how people can't see how that'd be uncomfortable for some. No one's denying it's historically accurate, but when playing the game, you, the player, are controlling Link and making him hunt while you yourself are in the modern day. Some people are just more empathetic toward wildlife, especially ones that are the same as or highly close to real world animals, and would rather not kill in a game that never relied on it before (as opposed to something like Pikmin where it was there from the start). Some people just can't seem to grasp that though.

Yes I understand that....but that was pretty much my point from the beginning...

People are uncomfortable hunting for food as opposed to setting a camp of bokoblins ablaze for fun and then stealing their stuff afterwards...
I have no problem with both

 

[ChikoLad]

I mean I can understand if someone is uncomfortable with the concept of hunting in video games, and if someone wants to opt out of it BotW then that's perfectly fine and is their decision. It's the nature of the game after all, you can play it your way. Deal with the wilderness how you see fit.

I just think BotW is literally as tame as hunting in games gets, so it shouldn't be too big a deal for most people.

I can also see meat from animals giving you more hearts than fruit, especially when cooked, so that's worth considering too. We probably haven't seen all of the animals and fruit yet either.

 

[Frostwraith]

I never understood the "poor animals" logic behind some vegetarians.

Plants are living beings as well. It's only natural that living organisms kill others to sustain themselves. Plucking a carrot from the ground is no different from cutting the head of a pig if the intention is to eat them.

You can't eat anything without involving the death of another living being. It's a law of nature. (There are some exceptions, as is the case of fruits, but a well-balanced diet surely won't solely rely on fruit.)

Sharks don't think twice before devouring a bunch of small fish. They'll just eat them because that's what's necessary to survive.

Of course, recreational hunting goes against that and should be condemned.

The thing is, what IS "anime style?"

The industry varies very widely in styles, from Bebop, to Berserk, to Sailor Moon, to K-On, to Lucky Star, to Monster, to Claymore, to Prison School, to One Piece, to Dragonball, each and every one of those varies very drastically from the other, and there is no one way to pin it exactly. Then you have Western Cartoons which have been animated by Japanese studios, like Swat Kats, to Transformers, to Teen Titans, to the Powerpuff girls, and likewise, you then have western shows that take up Oriental influences like The Last Airbender and Samurai Jack, and the lines between "anime" and "not anime" begin to really blur.

Moreover, you have to keep in mind that Japanese animation began by copying French animation techniques, and then Osamu Tezuka copied the style of Disney with it's characters featuring large eyes to create Astro boy, and now modern Disney copying styles from Kyoani, and it all becomes a jumbled mess.

The west has always influence the east since its conception, and the east, having the largest industry, has always animated for the west, and moreover, influenced it back.

So, keeping all that in mind.

What is "anime style?"

Saying "Zelda has always been influenced by anime style" because the look of the series has donned the look of Japanese artists doesn't mean it's always had an "anime style." Artists in the East tend to influence each other a lot, so all modern oriental art styles tend to share similarities. Whether they be for animation, or vidya. This doesn't mean that they're purpsely trying to do an "anime style", it's just the way people draw over there because of their artistic influences.

Compare the art of Twilight Princess with its more realistic look and proportions, and detailed character designs, it could be compared to Moria's Berserk, which itself has very strong western influences in style. Likewise with WW as people have brought up, the hyper-deformed cartoon style would be more welcome in the west whose animation industry tends to prefer super deformed and simplistic designs due to lower budgets and tighter schedules, see:

Spoiler

9

Of course Japanese studios are gonna be influenced by Japanese artists, that's what they're around all the time. However, it should be noted that in this specific instance, Aonuma has said that they specifically went out of their way to seek a more "anime-like style." What he means by that exactly? Beats me. But I presume he's not referring to Japanese animation exclusively, but rather all animation in general due to their use of cell shading, which is very common in games trying to port the 2D look of animation onto 3D models.

You know what? You raise some good points.

This said, there are distinct traits commonly in Japanese animation and manga, hence the "anime style".

In reality, there really isn't a single anime style. Different titles always have their own uniqueness, but there is a kind of a general mold that Zelda also has.

I mean, if you compare official art from the NES games with that of anime and manga from the 80's, you'll see a lot of similarities. Likewise, with Skyward Sword and Breath of the Wild and contemporary anime. Common traits and influence exist, but you can also tell that different artists are involved since there are noticeable differences.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Those vegans are killing and devouring animals even if they don't know if though. I don't think they care because they aren't "cute" animals.

Breathing in tiny insects and your body moving them into their digestive tracks.

Free protein I guess, they need it.

 

[Aetheri]

Sometimes I don't understand vegans...

I knew one girl who called herself a vegan yet she ate fish with no problem...as if fish can't think or feel pain like any other animal...

Another I had an argument with because he didn't believe me when I said eggs are used to make mayonaisse...

 

[Deleted member]

I never understood the "poor animals" logic behind some vegetarians.

Plants are living beings as well. It's only natural that living organisms kill others to sustain themselves. Plucking a carrot from the ground is no different from cutting the head of a pig if the intention is to eat them.

You can't eat anything without involving the death of another living being. It's a law of nature. (There are some exceptions, as is the case of fruits, but a well-balanced diet surely won't solely rely on fruit.)

Sharks don't think twice before devouring a bunch of small fish. They'll just eat them because that's what's necessary to survive.

Of course, recreational hunting goes against that and should be condemned.


You know what? You raise some good points.

This said, there are distinct traits commonly in Japanese animation and manga, hence the "anime style".

In reality, there really isn't a single anime style. Different titles always have their own uniqueness, but there is a kind of a general mold that Zelda also has.

I mean, if you compare official art from the NES games with that of anime and manga from the 80's, you'll see a lot of similarities. Likewise, with Skyward Sword and Breath of the Wild and contemporary anime. Common traits and influence exist, but you can also tell that different artists are involved since there are noticeable differences.

You'll like this video:

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Sometimes I don't understand vegans...

I knew one girl who called herself a vegan yet she ate fish with no problem...as if fish can't think or feel pain like any other animal...

Another I had an argument with because he didn't believe me when I said eggs are used to make mayonaisse...

Maybe they are actually vegetarians

I've actually heard "vegetarians" that eat no meat except fish

 

[Cyn]

Sometimes I don't understand vegans...

I knew one girl who called herself a vegan yet she ate fish with no problem...as if fish can't think or feel pain like any other animal...

Another I had an argument with because he didn't believe me when I said eggs are used to make mayonaisse...

Maybe they are actually vegetarians

I've actually heard "vegetarians" that eat no meat except fish

I think some "vegetarians" will eat fish because fish are not thought to really feel or experience pain the way mammals do. Of course there has been a debate going on about this for some time.

 

[Strofirko]

In this concept no vegans actually play minecraft.