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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

PeridotGX

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There is a misc Nintendo first party picks part planned. I have a lot of the standard retro picks already on there as well as a few fan favorites. There will be a suggestion part on part IV for any that I missed. I will note though already the planned list is long already so not every suggestion will be on the shortlist.

There are five sections for third parties planned as well at this time as well.
I know it's probably too late to make a suggestion for the next poll, but I think it would be a good idea to have a field where you can write-in characters you think are worth mentioning but weren't included. Not only does it make it a non-issue if you somehow forget a very important character, but it allows for people to mention dark horse choices and unpopular favorites, which fleshes out the data a bit. For instance, there's a Zelda character I think has a someone decent chance, yet nobody talks about them and they're almost assuredly not on the poll. That character goes completely unmentioned unless you add a field where you can mention them.
 

smashkirby

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There is a misc Nintendo first party picks part planned. I have a lot of the standard retro picks already on there as well as a few fan favorites. There will be a suggestion part on part IV for any that I missed. I will note though already the planned list is long already so not every suggestion will be on the shortlist.

There are five sections for third parties planned as well at this time as well.
Oh, I see. Well, I can't wait for that poll!

By the way... semi-unrelated question, but could I ask how Mona (from WarioWare) did on the currently-running poll?

I figure she didn't do all that well, but as someone who would love to see her in Smash, well...
 

Lenidem

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I know it's probably too late to make a suggestion for the next poll, but I think it would be a good idea to have a field where you can write-in characters you think are worth mentioning but weren't included. Not only does it make it a non-issue if you somehow forget a very important character, but it allows for people to mention dark horse choices and unpopular favorites, which fleshes out the data a bit. For instance, there's a Zelda character I think has a someone decent chance, yet nobody talks about them and they're almost assuredly not on the poll. That character goes completely unmentioned unless you add a field where you can mention them.
Which Zelda character is that, I wonder?
 

Chuderz

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"Simplicity" seems to be a generalized excuse for catering to the players who play the game the least. Why refer to them? They'll always suck and no amount of catering the game towards them is going to improve that. It'll actually only drag everybody else down with them including more average to whatever a "medium" level of investment of play is. These types of players literally couldn't care less about what they're doing anyway so why would we want the devs to bother so much with them? Basically I'm asking if they even care that they suck? Like does it actually bother them at all?

It's really insanity to me. These ideas like trying to "dumb down" supposedly complicated movesets (that are already extremely simplified thanks to the efforts and general design philosophy of Sakurai and team) or the idea that we should give up command inputs because we're going to generalize an entire newer generation of players as too lazy and dumb to implement them properly is just absurd and anti-fun in my opinion. Then I suggest a tutorial mode to potentially remedy some of this and that's bad for... reasons? Not very good reasons if I may.

I don't know. I imagine that online Smash discussion will be like all other discussions where there's always a group of people that stringently hold onto the status quo for its own sake or even worse an imagined status quo like one that imagines Smash must be painfully stupid to the point where its implementation gets even more simplified somehow. I just can't imagine the game getting any more simple and if it tried there's a 99.99% chance it'd be a massive regression in gameplay depth. Melee did the absolute opposite of what some here are suggesting and not only did it redefine and set a new standard for what a platform fighter could do but itself is now a forever game.

Are you playing Kazuya with tilt-stick? If not then that's your problem right there. I could play him without tilt-stick but I wouldn't want to because it would just be needlessly cumbersome. Honestly tilt-stick should just be standardized at this point. It's objectively the superior function of the right-stick and simultaneously leaves a great amount of space for new future attack inputs.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Complaining about people making broad generalizations and then making a generalization about a swath of fans just wanting to keep Smash stupidly simple and/or casual players in general is not really helping the case here.

Truth be told I think the complexity of some current fighters is fine because its balanced out by sheer number of fighters that are a bit more straightforward. Smash at its best is circus like in that respect; if you don't like the proverbial acrobats like Kazuya or Terry, there's the uniyclists like Banjo-Kazooie or Byleth that might be more your speed. Its not a matter of one being better than the other, just ones that have different appeals to different people.

Moreover I think a lot of those in the fandom are just acknowledging the reality that the pick up and play philosophy of Smash is going to be something that Nintendo will always be very careful about. There will always be genuine depth, tiers, and nuance to be found most certainly, but given the mega sales of both Ultiamte and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, its hard not see them viewing the sort of approacability that both games have as even more critical to their identities going forward.
 
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Chuderz

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My case stands on its own merits. Whatever helps it is purely subjective.

Nintendo may get the final say but for now at least they're not making Smash; Sakurai is. Personally, I think there's a good chance that this complexity we're seeing is Sakurai experimenting with the game. The introduction of Shield-Special, Back-Special, Terry's gimmicks like his command input moves, special-cancels, Kazuya's crouch-dash and command input-grab could be signs of a desire to expand upon the game's formula and I'm all for it.

If none of that transpires and it stays locked to certain characters then while that's disappointing it's also totally acceptable too but simplifying the game even further from Ultimate would just be plain bad. Like what would that even look like? Who would that appeal to that isn't playing Smash already? Why is it necessary? FGC should lose their identity in the game because of some dumb generalized truism about younger players not being in favor of them? That's just completely ridiculous and seems entirely pointless. I'm repeating myself but again what would that even accomplish? Who's the player that won't play Smash until the FGC are stripped of these pesky inputs? It makes no sense to me whatsoever. Nintendo would just end up alienating players like me. You'd be like designing Kazuya and characters like him around the whims of people that don't actually want to play him or characters like him. It's insanity.

I mean the attacks in Smash are freaking universal basically across the board. What more could actually be done? I just find the idea of further simplifying this game kind of astonishing. Should we have less moves or something? That's definitely one step further from never add another move again but gosh I just don't think anybody, even the hardline casuals, would appreciate that at all and I don't think anything would be gained from it.
 
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PeridotGX

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Which Zelda character is that, I wonder?
Okay so here me out for a second. Let's say that Link wasn't enough, and we wanted to give the BoTW subseries it's own character. Who do we go with? The first though is obviously one of the Champions, but therein lies the problem: it's one of the champions. All of them have basically the same amount of importance, picking one to be above the rest would be pretty arbitrary, and all of them (save for poor Daruk) are pretty popular so people would be upset all around. Who's next? There's Impa, but she's an old woman in BOTW and presumably the sequel. Assuming we don't want that it would be AoC Impa, which would be pretty weird because that's the least important game in the trilogy. She also runs the risk of being too similar to Sheik, and could also be "de-BOTWized" in a future game, so she's a no-go for this. Wild Zelda could work, but do we really want Zelda 3? After her, there really aren't any good picks left (the Old Man? Master Kohga?), so I guess we should drop the concept... unless we want to go with my wildcard pick. Someone that has a big role in both BOTW1 and AoC (we have yet to see for the sequel but it's very possible). Someone that perfectly encapsulates the themes that separate BOTW from the rest of the series, both visually and mechanically. Someone so core to the game that not only did they get an amiibo on Day 1, but they were in the very first trailer for the game all the way back in 2014. Who is this mysterious character, and why don't I remember them? I'll admit, I made a tiny white lie that might be the obstacle. This isn't a "someone"... it's a "something".
1661650717774.png

I 100%, unironically, think a Guardian would serve as the best rep for Breath of the Wild for all the reasons I said above. It would also be a really unique character mechanically, we don't have a character with these proportions and we don't really have any options for another. It would also be another good choice for a superheavy, one I could even see dethroning Bowser. Yes, it would need to be scaled down a bit, but I don't think that would be an issue (and Multiversus's Iron Giant proved that platform fighter characters can afford to be a bit bigger than what Smash is comfortable with.)
 

Perkilator

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Okay so here me out for a second. Let's say that Link wasn't enough, and we wanted to give the BoTW subseries it's own character. Who do we go with? The first though is obviously one of the Champions, but therein lies the problem: it's one of the champions. All of them have basically the same amount of importance, picking one to be above the rest would be pretty arbitrary, and all of them (save for poor Daruk) are pretty popular so people would be upset all around. Who's next? There's Impa, but she's an old woman in BOTW and presumably the sequel. Assuming we don't want that it would be AoC Impa, which would be pretty weird because that's the least important game in the trilogy. She also runs the risk of being too similar to Sheik, and could also be "de-BOTWized" in a future game, so she's a no-go for this. Wild Zelda could work, but do we really want Zelda 3? After her, there really aren't any good picks left (the Old Man? Master Kohga?), so I guess we should drop the concept... unless we want to go with my wildcard pick. Someone that has a big role in both BOTW1 and AoC (we have yet to see for the sequel but it's very possible). Someone that perfectly encapsulates the themes that separate BOTW from the rest of the series, both visually and mechanically. Someone so core to the game that not only did they get an amiibo on Day 1, but they were in the very first trailer for the game all the way back in 2014. Who is this mysterious character, and why don't I remember them? I'll admit, I made a tiny white lie that might be the obstacle. This isn't a "someone"... it's a "something".
View attachment 359713
I 100%, unironically, think a Guardian would serve as the best rep for Breath of the Wild for all the reasons I said above. It would also be a really unique character mechanically, we don't have a character with these proportions and we don't really have any options for another. It would also be another good choice for a superheavy, one I could even see dethroning Bowser. Yes, it would need to be scaled down a bit, but I don't think that would be an issue (and Multiversus's Iron Giant proved that platform fighter characters can afford to be a bit bigger than what Smash is comfortable with.)
Even if this guy doesn't get in as a fighter, I'm surprised he wasn't at least an Assist Trophy in Ultimate.
 

SPEN18

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the Champions, but therein lies the problem: it's one of the champions. All of them have basically the same amount of importance, picking one to be above the rest would be pretty arbitrary, and all of them (save for poor Daruk) are pretty popular so people would be upset all around.
Now this argument against the Champions I don't get. If they pick one, then how would that be any different than what they have already done with Pokemon starters?
I really fail to be compelled by the logic of "man, we can't add all of these great characters we want to add, so let's just go with none of them."
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Pokemon starters have never been outright treated as equal by Gamefreak or Nintendo. They clearly have had tiers, in both the anime and advertising. They're entirely different from the Champions, who are actually treated as equals. The only time it was done was by a third party, via Hyrule Warriors. Which isn't exactly promising either. They have a chance to finally stand out with BOTW's sequel, if they're even used(though to be fair, I don't remember if they were in any trailers, which were admittedly pretty low on information). Of course it's possible Nintendo may finally pick one to be more important, but... they haven't. At all.

The claim never made sense to make for Pokemon, with Charizard blatantly a bigger deal than Blastoise or Venusaur(look how was allowed to evolve all the way in the anime. It wasn't Bulbsaur or Squirtle. Who returned in 4? Yep). Greninja massively was advertised and got a unique form that others didn't get. Oh, and don't forget only Charizard gets two Mega forms. Equal? Hardly. Incineroar besides that is quite clearly treated as a bigger deal(with Decidueye just a bit behind, and Primarina pretty much not being notable at all). While it's not completely bad in the anime sometimes, there's many cases where they divide the starters up so only Ash gets one to showcase. Sometimes more, and can even be none. The latest anime is possibly the closest they ever tried to treat the current starters as equals, and that's pretty questionable.

Long story short;

Pokemon: Have massive tiers for most generations with the Starters, rarely are they legitimately treated as equals.
Champions: Pretty much equals bar one third-party created game who don't reflect Nintendo's thoughts that we could possibly know.
 

SPEN18

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Pokemon starters have never been outright treated as equal by Gamefreak or Nintendo. They clearly have had tiers, in both the anime and advertising. They're entirely different from the Champions, who are actually treated as equals. The only time it was done was by a third party, via Hyrule Warriors. Which isn't exactly promising either. They have a chance to finally stand out with BOTW's sequel, if they're even used(though to be fair, I don't remember if they were in any trailers, which were admittedly pretty low on information). Of course it's possible Nintendo may finally pick one to be more important, but... they haven't. At all.

The claim never made sense to make for Pokemon, with Charizard blatantly a bigger deal than Blastoise or Venusaur(look how was allowed to evolve all the way in the anime. It wasn't Bulbsaur or Squirtle. Who returned in 4? Yep). Greninja massively was advertised and got a unique form that others didn't get. Oh, and don't forget only Charizard gets two Mega forms. Equal? Hardly. Incineroar besides that is quite clearly treated as a bigger deal(with Decidueye just a bit behind, and Primarina pretty much not being notable at all). While it's not completely bad in the anime sometimes, there's many cases where they divide the starters up so only Ash gets one to showcase. Sometimes more, and can even be none. The latest anime is possibly the closest they ever tried to treat the current starters as equals, and that's pretty questionable.

Long story short;

Pokemon: Have massive tiers for most generations with the Starters, rarely are they legitimately treated as equals.
Champions: Pretty much equals bar one third-party created game who don't reflect Nintendo's thoughts that we could possibly know.
Figured someone would try to make this argument.

First, I disagree with Incineroar being a bigger deal than Decidueye. At the very least it's debatable, and therefore illustrates a scenario in which a newgen starter was added irrespective of whether that chosen mon would go on to dominate its compatriots in the marketing.

But regardless even of that, given how they were holding spots for newgen mons before their games were even released, and the fact that Sakurai has probably had at least some say in which starter ultimately got added (irrespective of any pre-planned marketing faves), I find it unlikely that the lack of tiered marketing for a given crop of starters would have prevented them from adding one of them in base 4 or in base Ult.

The Charizard and Greninja examples are also cherry-picked, with those two being among the most conspicuous frontrunners within their respective starter sets. I know "most gens" was the characterization used, but I still think this is worth pointing out. The gens where there was no clear marketing frontrunner among the starters had other factors leading to those starters not getting in, like the presence of Lucario in gen 4 or bad timings for some other gens relative to Smash project plans.

Of course, none of this was to say that the PKMN starter and BotW Champion situations are exactly the same. And besides, even if this really is a thing holding the Champions back, then I still disagree with that being a good reason to exclude a character. Having multiple roughly equally qualified candidates is not a reason to choose a less qualified candidate in order to avoid a tough decision.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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It's not "cherry-picked". Fact of the matter is, Pokemon doesn't treat its overall starters as equal. It consistently has ones more important than others. And last I checked, Incineroar is significantly a bigger deal than Decidueye. One is involved in a movie as a major character, is treated as very important in the anime(unfortunately the birb is not given much at all. Rowlet slightly, but that's like the only form notable there at all, with Decidueye having a minor appearance at best. Incineroar is given way more importance, even before becoming a main Pokemon among Ash's team).

It's absolutely a good reason. There's no reason to choose any Champion because none stand out from each other as important. None are pushed. They already play minor roles in BOTW to begin with. Which isn't helping. It took what's essentially a spin-off to even slightly make one stand out, and that's due to bias from a third party, not Nintendo nor important advertising. One will stand out as soon as Nintendo thinks it's a good idea to make them that way.

...Which can't be said for Pokemon. Cause, again, yes, they do treat some as more important than others. That's how it's always been. And how it has to be because the anime is a big part of the franchise and they can't give equal screentime to all 3 final forms effectively(and never have once). Considering Ash-Greninja was added to the games too, they already had pretty much considered him much more important. It also doesn't change what I said about Primarina pretty much having nothing to go by, with Decidueye getting some importance, and Incineroar easily leading the pack by far.

You'll always find tiers. Anyone thinking Swampert is remotely treated like Blaziken or Sceptile is pretty much being ridiculous. While not every Gen is bad about this, a lot tend to always have a frontrunner or ones who are clearly more important. That's just how they went about it, giving some more importance than others. Especially when one becomes Ash's Pokemon, who is the main character to begin with. That automatically puts them in an immediate higher tier of advertising.

I'd love it if they actually made an attempt to make other Zelda characters notable beyond their own game, or at least took the time to properly flesh out a group to help them stand out. Unfortunately, the formula rarely allows for that. We barely had it in MM with letting you play as other races. And you're still Link. Hyrule Warriors hasn't really influenced anything, since Aonuma pretty much wasn't up for letting Zelda be playable alone. Silly, but the core point is there's no actual reason to believe that they'll try to push another race member, especially the Champions, into some tier within themselves. There's nothing to gain from it on their end. They already marketed them as equal, wanting them each to play a minor yet important part within BOTW itself.

Let's also note Blaziken even more; it's the one deliberately used to advertise Gen III at the end of Johto. Let's not forget Infernape, who was vastly more important than the rest in the anime yet again. It is possible for them to kind of make them equal... if the anime wasn't a thing, where there's always an advertised favorite. Gen V? ...Yep, hi, fire starter. And the other ones weren't even given much to begin with, as they weren't a core part of Ash's team in the same way. Samurott's core user was a one-off random guy just to knock Ash out of the tourney(Cameron. Albeit, Lucario did that, but that's not the overlal point). I'm also trying to remember exactly what Gen VIII Starter isn't really given much focus in the latest anime... oh, right, the Grass one. Fire and Water are given a pretty good amount, but Grass? Tis on the eh side. Hell, Grass somewhat often does get the short end of the stick, but regardless, yes, there's a very clear bias by Gamefreak(and maybe part of it's Nintendo) to not treated them as equal. It's severely rare, and kind of stops being a thing in the anime. If you're lucky, you get 2 with somewhat equal footing.
 

Lenidem

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Okay so here me out for a second. Let's say that Link wasn't enough, and we wanted to give the BoTW subseries it's own character. Who do we go with? The first though is obviously one of the Champions, but therein lies the problem: it's one of the champions. All of them have basically the same amount of importance, picking one to be above the rest would be pretty arbitrary, and all of them (save for poor Daruk) are pretty popular so people would be upset all around. Who's next? There's Impa, but she's an old woman in BOTW and presumably the sequel. Assuming we don't want that it would be AoC Impa, which would be pretty weird because that's the least important game in the trilogy. She also runs the risk of being too similar to Sheik, and could also be "de-BOTWized" in a future game, so she's a no-go for this. Wild Zelda could work, but do we really want Zelda 3? After her, there really aren't any good picks left (the Old Man? Master Kohga?), so I guess we should drop the concept... unless we want to go with my wildcard pick. Someone that has a big role in both BOTW1 and AoC (we have yet to see for the sequel but it's very possible). Someone that perfectly encapsulates the themes that separate BOTW from the rest of the series, both visually and mechanically. Someone so core to the game that not only did they get an amiibo on Day 1, but they were in the very first trailer for the game all the way back in 2014. Who is this mysterious character, and why don't I remember them? I'll admit, I made a tiny white lie that might be the obstacle. This isn't a "someone"... it's a "something".
View attachment 359713
I 100%, unironically, think a Guardian would serve as the best rep for Breath of the Wild for all the reasons I said above. It would also be a really unique character mechanically, we don't have a character with these proportions and we don't really have any options for another. It would also be another good choice for a superheavy, one I could even see dethroning Bowser. Yes, it would need to be scaled down a bit, but I don't think that would be an issue (and Multiversus's Iron Giant proved that platform fighter characters can afford to be a bit bigger than what Smash is comfortable with.)
Your arguments are good. I'm also in the team "do not arbitrary choose a character if nothing makes him stand out from his equals". However, I would be really disappointed to have another playable generic enemy. The Guardian as an assist would be awesome, but there are so many rich and colorful characters in the Zelda franchise I would prefer. To stay in the BotW-world, Calamity Impa, Wild Zelda (don't care if we already have several Zelda as long as their apparences and movesets are vastly different) or even Kass would be higher on my wish-list.

By the way, I played Age of Calamity (and the scenario was an awful mess, but that's not the place to talk about it) and I wonder which champion is supposed to have the best treatment. I have genuinely no idea.
 

Diddy Kong

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I know it's probably too late to make a suggestion for the next poll, but I think it would be a good idea to have a field where you can write-in characters you think are worth mentioning but weren't included. Not only does it make it a non-issue if you somehow forget a very important character, but it allows for people to mention dark horse choices and unpopular favorites, which fleshes out the data a bit. For instance, there's a Zelda character I think has a someone decent chance, yet nobody talks about them and they're almost assuredly not on the poll. That character goes completely unmentioned unless you add a field where you can mention them.
What Zelda character you mean ? Legitimately curious.

Oh wait, now I see. Yeah, weird choice but not even a bad one. Whilst I disagree Impa should be overlooked, it does solve the problem in which of the Champions should be picked. Even if there's situations like this in Smash already with Min Min, Byleth and Incineroar.

I still believe Impa is the best possible choice however.
 
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Nabbitfan730

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"Simplicity" seems to be a generalized excuse for catering to the players who play the game the least. Why refer to them? They'll always suck and no amount of catering the game towards them is going to improve that. It'll actually only drag everybody else down with them including more average to whatever a "medium" level of investment of play is. These types of players literally couldn't care less about what they're doing anyway so why would we want the devs to bother so much with them? Basically I'm asking if they even care that they suck? Like does it actually bother them at all?

I don't know. I imagine that online Smash discussion will be like all other discussions where there's always a group of people that stringently hold onto the status quo for its own sake or even worse an imagined status quo like one that imagines Smash must be painfully stupid to the point where its implementation gets even more simplified somehow. I just can't imagine the game getting any more simple and if it tried there's a 99.99% chance it'd be a massive regression in gameplay depth. Melee did the absolute opposite of what some here are suggesting and not only did it redefine and set a new standard for what a platform fighter could do but itself is now a forever game.
The Casuals make up the bulk of the Smash fanbase. From little Jimmy to the Old John who plays. From a marketing standard, it makes sense to appeal more to the biggest pie of the market. Competitive Players barely make up the one percent. I'm not saying dumb down everything to absurdity but Simplicity is one of Smash's biggest appeals compared to fighting games

"Melee did the absolute opposite of what some here are suggesting and not only did it redefine and set a new standard for what a platform fighter could do but itself is now a forever game." this is such an exaggeration.

You say that as if that was its intended purpose and not just a side effect of glitches and exploits spawning due to extreme time constraints and rushed development schedule. Smash Bros isn't even considered to be a fighting game.

Even if it's a forever game to some, it's still a relative niche to the main market Smash was meant for. I don't get me wrong. The way they went about in Brawl was too much but I think 4 and Ultimate was a pretty good balance
 
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SPEN18

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Fact of the matter is, Pokemon doesn't treat its overall starters as equal. It consistently has ones more important than others.
To be clear, I think you can make the case for Charizard, Blaziken, and Greninja getting vastly more marketing than their counterparts. Maybe Cinderace, too, but not nearly to the same extent. But for gens 2, 4, 5, and 7 I think either any favoritism is pretty slight or it's downright arguable if there even is any favorite at all (there might be a third wheel in some cases but at least two candidates are strong for these gens, I think).

Incineroar is significantly a bigger deal than Decidueye. One is involved in a movie as a major character, is treated as very important in the anime(unfortunately the birb is not given much at all. Rowlet slightly, but that's like the only form notable there at all, with Decidueye having a minor appearance at best. Incineroar is given way more importance, even before becoming a main Pokemon among Ash's team).
I think in general you're way overvaluing the anime. Outside of that, I don't see any Incineroar dominance. If anything it's Decidueye getting the Pokken slot even though Incineroar is a fighter/wrestler type and it's the Decidueye line that dominates the Incineroar line in popularity.

There's no reason to choose any Champion because none stand out from each other as important. None are pushed. They already play minor roles in BOTW to begin with. Which isn't helping. It took what's essentially a spin-off to even slightly make one stand out, and that's due to bias from a third party, not Nintendo nor important advertising. One will stand out as soon as Nintendo thinks it's a good idea to make them that way.
Arguing that "none of the Champions are important" is different than arguing that "roughly equal importance for all of the options is a good reason to choose none of the options." If the Champions are excluded because none of them is viewed as important enough, then that's a different reason for exclusion than explicitly excluding all of them to avoid upsetting some subset of fans by favoring one.

You'll always find tiers. Anyone thinking Swampert is remotely treated like Blaziken or Sceptile is pretty much being ridiculous. While not every Gen is bad about this, a lot tend to always have a frontrunner or ones who are clearly more important. That's just how they went about it, giving some more importance than others. Especially when one becomes Ash's Pokemon, who is the main character to begin with. That automatically puts them in an immediate higher tier of advertising.
Let's also note Blaziken even more; it's the one deliberately used to advertise Gen III at the end of Johto. Let's not forget Infernape, who was vastly more important than the rest in the anime yet again. It is possible for them to kind of make them equal... if the anime wasn't a thing, where there's always an advertised favorite. Gen V? ...Yep, hi, fire starter. And the other ones weren't even given much to begin with, as they weren't a core part of Ash's team in the same way. Samurott's core user was a one-off random guy just to knock Ash out of the tourney(Cameron. Albeit, Lucario did that, but that's not the overlal point).
Again, the importance of playing a bigger role on Ash's team is being overstated here. I agree that Blaziken gets the most favoritism out of the gen 3 starters, but Sceptile is the one on Ash's team. In gen 4, you can't exaggerate Infernape's importance when Piplup was there with Dawn the whole time and was an even bigger part of the show in general. Saying the Tepig line in gen 5 was the most marketed feels like a strange claim to me because I would've viewed them as the third wheel behind Snivy and Oshawott, if anything...
 

WeirdChillFever

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Okay so here me out for a second. Let's say that Link wasn't enough, and we wanted to give the BoTW subseries it's own character. Who do we go with? The first though is obviously one of the Champions, but therein lies the problem: it's one of the champions. All of them have basically the same amount of importance, picking one to be above the rest would be pretty arbitrary, and all of them (save for poor Daruk) are pretty popular so people would be upset all around. Who's next? There's Impa, but she's an old woman in BOTW and presumably the sequel. Assuming we don't want that it would be AoC Impa, which would be pretty weird because that's the least important game in the trilogy. She also runs the risk of being too similar to Sheik, and could also be "de-BOTWized" in a future game, so she's a no-go for this. Wild Zelda could work, but do we really want Zelda 3? After her, there really aren't any good picks left (the Old Man? Master Kohga?), so I guess we should drop the concept... unless we want to go with my wildcard pick. Someone that has a big role in both BOTW1 and AoC (we have yet to see for the sequel but it's very possible). Someone that perfectly encapsulates the themes that separate BOTW from the rest of the series, both visually and mechanically. Someone so core to the game that not only did they get an amiibo on Day 1, but they were in the very first trailer for the game all the way back in 2014. Who is this mysterious character, and why don't I remember them? I'll admit, I made a tiny white lie that might be the obstacle. This isn't a "someone"... it's a "something".
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I 100%, unironically, think a Guardian would serve as the best rep for Breath of the Wild for all the reasons I said above. It would also be a really unique character mechanically, we don't have a character with these proportions and we don't really have any options for another. It would also be another good choice for a superheavy, one I could even see dethroning Bowser. Yes, it would need to be scaled down a bit, but I don't think that would be an issue (and Multiversus's Iron Giant proved that platform fighter characters can afford to be a bit bigger than what Smash is comfortable with.)
This concept is amazing but in the time it took me to read the little riddle I actually unironically started supporting Maz Koshia instead because, yes, he’s incredibly niche in the grand scheme of things, but he could represent all the incredibly silly ways people have beaten shrines with the physics-based puzzles that the Sheikah Slate allows for and has a motorcycle so I see your point but I raise you motorcycle monk
 
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and doing sod all before getting left behind for the regular restart
Though still way more than Decidueye, who barely showed up.

I agree Incineroar is underutilized by Ash, though the full line is also heavily used. It’s worth noting the other Incineroar(Kakui’s) sees quite a bit of use too. Oddly enough, Primarina’s line was used more than Decidueye’s, even with Rowlet in Ash’s backpack.
 

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Though still way more than Decidueye, who barely showed up.

I agree Incineroar is underutilized by Ash, though the full line is also heavily used. It’s worth noting the other Incineroar(Kakui’s) sees quite a bit of use too. Oddly enough, Primarina’s line was used more than Decidueye’s, even with Rowlet in Ash’s backpack.
just the signature Pokemon of one of ash’s rivals who had a rivalry with one ash’s Pokemon.

rowlet probably didn’t evolve because the anime writers bizarre notion that Pokemons personalities have to change when they evolve and we can’t have a happy go lucky samurott or a decidueye who falls asleep all the time.

i certainly don’t disagree that there a sense of favouritism with certain Pokémon. All seemed to me that someone at gf or tpc decided that cinderace was to be the popular one without seeing how the fans take to them. Though I usually chock it up to paranoia

giving ash inceneroar seemed so pointless as it didn’t get to do anything. Like they were just trying to make him more like kukui the worst character in the franchise
 

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just the signature Pokemon of one of ash’s rivals who had a rivalry with one ash’s Pokemon.

rowlet probably didn’t evolve because the anime writers bizarre notion that Pokemons personalities have to change when they evolve and we can’t have a happy go lucky samurott or a decidueye who falls asleep all the time.

i certainly don’t disagree that there a sense of favouritism with certain Pokémon. All seemed to me that someone at gf or tpc decided that cinderace was to be the popular one without seeing how the fans take to them. Though I usually chock it up to paranoia

giving ash inceneroar seemed so pointless as it didn’t get to do anything. Like they were just trying to make him more like kukui the worst character in the franchise
I concur. Sure, it's clear they wanted to push Incineroar heavily, but it was not done that well.

Which might be why Decidueye, quite a bit later on, got to reappear in a mainline game in Legends: Arceus. Pokken's not exactly notable, though, since it's a spin-off by a third party. And has the weird factor of "where the hell is Hawlucha?", so even its own roster has its issues.
 

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My case stands on its own merits. Whatever helps it is purely subjective.

Nintendo may get the final say but for now at least they're not making Smash; Sakurai is. Personally, I think there's a good chance that this complexity we're seeing is Sakurai experimenting with the game. The introduction of Shield-Special, Back-Special, Terry's gimmicks like his command input moves, special-cancels, Kazuya's crouch-dash and command input-grab could be signs of a desire to expand upon the game's formula and I'm all for it.

If none of that transpires and it stays locked to certain characters then while that's disappointing it's also totally acceptable too but simplifying the game even further from Ultimate would just be plain bad. Like what would that even look like? Who would that appeal to that isn't playing Smash already? Why is it necessary? FGC should lose their identity in the game because of some dumb generalized truism about younger players not being in favor of them? That's just completely ridiculous and seems entirely pointless. I'm repeating myself but again what would that even accomplish? Who's the player that won't play Smash until the FGC are stripped of these pesky inputs? It makes no sense to me whatsoever. Nintendo would just end up alienating players like me. You'd be like designing Kazuya and characters like him around the whims of people that don't actually want to play him or characters like him. It's insanity.

I mean the attacks in Smash are freaking universal basically across the board. What more could actually be done? I just find the idea of further simplifying this game kind of astonishing. Should we have less moves or something? That's definitely one step further from never add another move again but gosh I just don't think anybody, even the hardline casuals, would appreciate that at all and I don't think anything would be gained from it.
I don't want Smash to simplify down further than Smash 64, but what you earlier called "DLC Spice" drives me away from playing those characters. Even the increasing focus on gimmicks for several vanilla newcomers turn me off.

But yeah, I'm all for reworking certain aspects of Smash universally or semi-universally. I've been vocal about adding a "super move" category to all characters and I share your desire for a universal shield B.

I suppose I'm more in favor of spreading several characters' innovations rather than simplifying. But I still don't like Inkling's ink supply or Villager's focus on weird specials.
 

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I concur. Sure, it's clear they wanted to push Incineroar heavily, but it was not done that well.

Which might be why Decidueye, quite a bit later on, got to reappear in a mainline game in Legends: Arceus. Pokken's not exactly notable, though, since it's a spin-off by a third party. And has the weird factor of "where the hell is Hawlucha?", so even its own roster has its issues.
I know right? Where was hawlucha?
 

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I know right? Where was hawlucha?
Like, I've seen odd ones not there, but that stands out. A lot. Though in the end, that shows that third party developers aren't necessarily the best way to determine what's actually popular etc. They have their own preferences, which is understandable.
 

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I think in general you're way overvaluing the anime. Outside of that, I don't see any Incineroar dominance. If anything it's Decidueye getting the Pokken slot even though Incineroar is a fighter/wrestler type and it's the Decidueye line that dominates the Incineroar line in popularity.
I wonder if Decidueye being in Pokken has something to do with Sakurai deciding to choose Incineroar despite initially thinking of doing Decidueye... 🤔
 

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I wonder if Decidueye being in Pokken has something to do with Sakurai deciding to choose Incineroar despite initially thinking of doing Decidueye... 🤔
I doubt it. The Smash roster is usually kept top secret. Letting an uninvolved team on a completely different game know roster details is just taking unnecessary risks for additional leaks.

Decidueye likely just got into Pokkén because it's a very popular Pokémon from a then-new generation with a unique fighting style.
 

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I doubt it. The Smash roster is usually kept top secret. Letting an uninvolved team on a completely different game know roster details is just taking unnecessary risks for additional leaks.

Decidueye likely just got into Pokkén because it's a very popular Pokémon from a then-new generation with a unique fighting style.
You're right in that, though, may I add, the only reason I'm even considering this is because Namco is involved in all of this.

IIRC, it's actually more to do with Sakurai wanting a proper wrestler character in the roster.
No I get that. I was talking in the perspective of Pokken's development team. It's quite obvious that Sakurai chose based on what he ended up clicking more with him, he made it clear.

This also makes the case with favoritism a bit curious because unlike say, Gen 6 (where not though about the other starters was ever given as far as I remember), Sakurai considered both Decidueye and Incineroar equally valid choices, and went for Incineroar because he liked their niche more.
 
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It came down to the subject of which of the Champions to pick however, and I'd say the most popular and practical of them are Urbosa and Mipha. They both have a strong connection to Link (Mipha) and Zelda (Urbosa) as well. But I wouldn't expect them, but I do think one of them could've been a candidate for vanilla Ultimate if they didn't focus on Everyone Is Here.

Alas, I think we'll have to wait for BotW 2, and if nothing else Impa always makes sense as she's the most consistent of mainline Zelda characters even if her age can vary with 100 or so years. Am pretty sure she wouldn't be a Echo as we would've seen her in Ultimate as one.

A character I do expect is Noah from Xenoblade Chronicles 3 however. He's probably a good lock as in what to expect, unless they go for a more unique / gimmicky choice as they did with Pyra and Mythra over Rex. Noah on his own could potentially be a sort of semi clone to Shulk even, but there are probably gimmicks they could give him. Not sure, literally just started playing the game.
 

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Now this argument against the Champions I don't get. If they pick one, then how would that be any different than what they have already done with Pokemon starters?
I really fail to be compelled by the logic of "man, we can't add all of these great characters we want to add, so let's just go with none of them."
I'll admit, it was a bit of a flimsy argument to get them off the table (though one I do partially believe in, I think the Guardian would be a better pick than all of them). I will say that there is a difference between the Starters and the Champions: the former just get a lot more screen time. In the average Pokémon game, any given starter has a 66% chance to be a "main character": either as your Pokémon or as your rival's (Gen 7 and 8 even make the last starter part of the champion's team, closing the circle in a way). Meanwhile, the Champions only really serve a role in one dungeon and a few cutscenes, so that's about two hours of screen time each? Age of Calamity does give them more to do at least, but past game starters also get roles in future games so that's a bit of a wash. I would say that the Starters are more like the House Leaders in 3H, and the Champions are closer to the Gym Leaders than anything else in Pokemon.

What Zelda character you mean ? Legitimately curious.

Oh wait, now I see. Yeah, weird choice but not even a bad one. Whilst I disagree Impa should be overlooked, it does solve the problem in which of the Champions should be picked. Even if there's situations like this in Smash already with Min Min, Byleth and Incineroar.

I still believe Impa is the best possible choice however.
Impa is one of the best choices for a Zelda rep as a whole, but she wouldn't be particularly great as a specifically BOTW rep, which was the subject at hand. Impa would probably take mostly from Skyward Sword, Hyrule Warriors 1 (both of which have nothing to do with BOTW), and Age of Calamity (the least important part of what appears to be the trilogy), while largely ignoring BOTW 1 and 2. Sorry for the misunderstanding!
 

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I'll admit, it was a bit of a flimsy argument to get them off the table (though one I do partially believe in, I think the Guardian would be a better pick than all of them). I will say that there is a difference between the Starters and the Champions: the former just get a lot more screen time. In the average Pokémon game, any given starter has a 66% chance to be a "main character": either as your Pokémon or as your rival's (Gen 7 and 8 even make the last starter part of the champion's team, closing the circle in a way). Meanwhile, the Champions only really serve a role in one dungeon and a few cutscenes, so that's about two hours of screen time each? Age of Calamity does give them more to do at least, but past game starters also get roles in future games so that's a bit of a wash. I would say that the Starters are more like the House Leaders in 3H, and the Champions are closer to the Gym Leaders than anything else in Pokemon.
Now the screen time argument is a legitimate concern with the Champions, yeah. To that I would say that BotW being such a landmark game lowers the bar a bit, and in comparison with the Guardian, the Champions are still more popular and role-important.

I also agree with Diddy Kong Diddy Kong that Mipha and Urbosa are a clear cut above Revali and Daruk, so I don't actually think all the Champions are on equal footing; I just operated under that parameter for the sake of argument.

On the 66% thing: really it's only a 33% chance to be a main character; when they are your rival's mon, they are more of a secondary/tertiary "antagonist."
But yes, this feature is quite the complication in grading starters relative to other popular and recurring non-starter mons.
 

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Best Impa is Oracles Impa for me. Stands out well, and is nice and strong~

I honestly don't have a preference for any Champion, though Sidon I do like.

As for others, ones I'd like to see in in general is Oracles Impa, Pig Ganon(specifically ALTTP), and MM-style Tingle. They're all pretty unique designs and characters, only one of them has even cameo'd in Smash, heh.
 

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Everyone's talking about Zelda characters in smash, now's the time for me to get sad because I know Vaati is never gonna happen.

Other than that, I'd like to see Pig Ganon, Impa (any incarnation, though Oracle and Skyward are my top choices), and maybe Marin, if she's anything like how she is in Hyrule Warriors.
 

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One thing for one section of my poll that I want to just give a heads up on.

For the RPG section (Pokemon, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, Mother), I am strongly considering just making a category for Chance that is "New Pokemon" and "New Fire Emblem" respectively. For both we are in a bit of a lull period and I do think that there is good reason to suggest that while one or two candidates could slip through the cracks if they did two newcomers for both series, odds are it will just be one for both. I think the earliest we could feasibly get a new smash would be 2025, but I would say after 2027 is more likely. For both series I think it is obvious we will be getting new content. Id wager both series are among the likeliest to get newcomers, but I think that unless we get a double dip we probably will not know the candidates until the next Smash is well underway.

This category would only be for Chance. I would feel weird asking how people would feel about a character that they have no real strong idea of what they would be. I just figured I would gauge interest in doing that before decide to do that. I also will emphasize due to the unique way these series are handled in smash this would be the only time I would really do this.
 

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How is Oracles Impa actually always brought up when talking about Impa? She did literally nothing, but lift a cow in the manga, and that's about it.

Seriously there's a full functioning Impa with Age of Calamity that would fit in with the rest of the cast nicely and has lots of moves to pull from, but somehow, people seem to always talk of Oracles Impa. It's not the design they're gonna go for, that should be obvious....

Makes me really wish they go for a singular design and role for Impa in the future, cause this is getting too crazy.
 

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How is Oracles Impa actually always brought up when talking about Impa? She did literally nothing, but lift a cow in the manga, and that's about it.

Seriously there's a full functioning Impa with Age of Calamity that would fit in with the rest of the cast nicely and has lots of moves to pull from, but somehow, people seem to always talk of Oracles Impa. It's not the design they're gonna go for, that should be obvious....

Makes me really wish they go for a singular design and role for Impa in the future, cause this is getting too crazy.
well talking about only one version of the character would get a bit dull. Personally I like speculating over all the ways the various versions could work. Though in fairness her strength is shown in the game when she topples link by patting him on the back during the ages credits.
 

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Impa is weird for me. She is one of my most wanted first party characters, but only if it’s specifically her original Hyrule Warriors incarnation. I thought she was so awesome in that game but I honestly never really cared much about the character beyond her portrayal in that game. She had a fun moveset in Age of Calamity as well but her design and personality never really clicked with me to nearly the same degree as Hyrule Warriors.

I personally prefer that style of character and I feel like Smash is a bit lacking in characters like that. That’s why im still a bit disappointed that they changed Zelda in Ultimate. I don’t have anything against her new cheery personality, but I feel like she stands out a bit less compared to Peach and Daisy now. Zelda was also my favorite character in Brawl because I love her Twilight Princess incarnation.
 
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