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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Chuderz

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now how do you know sakurai doesn’t care?
I don't know for certain. I just think Banjo-Kazooie didn't get that much DLC spice in his moveset and I think that's because Sakurai didn't have as personal a connection to them. Watch the presents video for them. There's like a level of detachment you can kind fairly presume from him especially when he's amused calling them all poor souls. I think Crash would be in similar but maybe not because the first 3 Crash games did moderately well in Japan back in the day.
 

fogbadge

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I don't know for certain. I just think Banjo-Kazooie didn't get that much DLC spice in his moveset and I think that's because Sakurai didn't have as personal a connection to them. Watch the presents video for them. There's like a level of detachment you can kind fairly presume from him especially when he's amused calling them all poor souls. I think Crash would be in similar but maybe not because the first 3 Crash games did moderately well in Japan back in the day.
detachment or not b&k didn't really need any spice in their movesets. they play almost exactly how i thought they would funnily enough
 

Pink Yoshi

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Waaaaait. Even better idea for SoulCalibur rep.

Have Sophitia be the primary rep, and give her Cassandra as an echo or alt. Sophitia has been in the Soul series from the start, was one of the first big reveals for SCVI, and she and Cassandra have been tightly tied together as similar siblings since Cassandra's introduction.
 

TCT~Phantom

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I don't know for certain. I just think Banjo-Kazooie didn't get that much DLC spice in his moveset and I think that's because Sakurai didn't have as personal a connection to them. Watch the presents video for them. There's like a level of detachment you can kind fairly presume from him especially when he's amused calling them all poor souls. I think Crash would be in similar but maybe not because the first 3 Crash games did moderately well in Japan back in the day.
This just is making a baseless assumption. Part of the reason that Banjo probably did not have as crazy of a moveset probably has more to with other factors. For starters, we know Sakurai purposefully designed Sora to be simple because he was such a popular request, so it would not be surprising if he went in with the same logic for Banjo. Furthermore, Banjo's games are pretty simple in terms of what he does at the end of the day. Sakurai focused far more on a simple interpretation of Banjo that calls back to his games with a vast amount of direct references. Heck, banjo and Kazooie are even some of the best animated characters in the game, came with a beautiful stage, and got a lot of love in the music department. Did he have the same emotional attachment to them as some of the other characters added as DLC? Probably not, but that does not mean they were half baked because Sakurai did not want to make them. The shortness of his Sakurai presents on them is probably moreso due to how simple they are as a whole rather than the fact that he does not care.

Not everyone is going to be super complex when they are translated to Smash. Not everyone is going to require as much work as a Min Min or a Steve. That does not mean that there is a lack of enthusiasm for the character. Should Crash get in, obviously he would probably be more on the simple side; the most radical thing I could think to do with him would be an Aku Aku based gimmick. But you can't make every newcomer a Hero or a Steve: you need more simple newcomers at the end of the day. If anything, I welcome there being simpler newcomers like Banjo, Sora, Ridley, and Incineroar mixed in with more abstact ones like Steve, Hero, Min Min, and Kazuya.
 

Jerry98

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Chuderz

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Meh I disagree. I think they could have used more and plenty of players/fans of them agree with me. You can argue the merits of a simpler moveset all you want but I'd have rather something more novel and unique for them considering they were a big request and they were DLC. I feel the same way about Sora actually. I address what I'd do for both in the links in my sig referencing their reworks. And of course it's a baseless assumption. It's not like Sakurai flat-out said it. I just feel the same way about Crash and again I have made a post about it though that one I would like to touch up a bit soonish/eventually.
 

Quillion

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Meh I disagree. I think they could have used more and plenty of players/fans of them agree with me. You can argue the merits of a simpler moveset all you want but I'd have rather something more novel and unique for them considering they were a big request and they were DLC. I feel the same way about Sora actually. I address what I'd do for both in the links in my sig referencing their reworks. And of course it's a baseless assumption. It's not like Sakurai flat-out said it. I just feel the same way about Crash and again I have made a post about it though that one I would like to touch up a bit soonish/eventually.
Overcomplicated characters are one of the factors that's turning me off Smash 4 and on, and I actively hope characters like Ryu, Kazuya, Min Min, and Villager get simplified to earlier standards.

However, I can mildly tolerate the idea of simple characters and complicated characters coexisting.

But anyone who says characters like Mario, Samus, and DK need to be updated to modern gimmicky standards is missing Smash's appeal.
 

Troykv

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Meh I disagree. I think they could have used more and plenty of players/fans of them agree with me. You can argue the merits of a simpler moveset all you want but I'd have rather something more novel and unique for them considering they were a big request and they were DLC. I feel the same way about Sora actually. I address what I'd do for both in the links in my sig referencing their reworks. And of course it's a baseless assumption. It's not like Sakurai flat-out said it. I just feel the same way about Crash and again I have made a post about it though that one I would like to touch up a bit soonish/eventually.
To be fair, Banjo is the kind of character I could expect to be something simple, considering how much stuff Banjo does in his game, but everything could be considered "basic", making him simple makes sense.

Also, I think it kinda helps with the idea of making Banjo and Kazooie feel like they had always have been in Smash~
 
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Diddy Kong

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I don't know for certain. I just think Banjo-Kazooie didn't get that much DLC spice in his moveset and I think that's because Sakurai didn't have as personal a connection to them. Watch the presents video for them. There's like a level of detachment you can kind fairly presume from him especially when he's amused calling them all poor souls. I think Crash would be in similar but maybe not because the first 3 Crash games did moderately well in Japan back in the day.
Part of the charm of their inclusion is their simpleness. It makes it all the easier to imagine how they'd work in earlier Smash games where they where at the peak of their popularity. I also don't think they're less "simple" than Sephiroth and Pyra/ Mythra actually.
 

Pink Yoshi

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Viridi, Zeena and Gill Grunt would probably be the "simplest" of my most wanted newcomers.
  • Ribbon Girl would have a moveset similar to Min Min and would be a complicated character by default
  • Grima would have his abso-hecking-lutely enormous size as a big gimmick
  • Ratchet and Clank have a big, complex moveset to build
  • Sophitia/Cassandra would basically be the "anime swordswoman" equivalent of Kazuya
In comparison, Viridi, Zeena and Gill would have quick, simple, gimmick-free movesets, but still in a fun, unique way!
 
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smashkirby

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Overcomplicated characters are one of the factors that's turning me off Smash 4 and on, and I actively hope characters like Ryu, Kazuya, Min Min, and Villager get simplified to earlier standards.

However, I can mildly tolerate the idea of simple characters and complicated characters coexisting.

But anyone who says characters like Mario, Samus, and DK need to be updated to modern gimmicky standards is missing Smash's appeal.
Thank you. I've always felt like folks who think the Original 8/12 are too simple might be missing the appeal of their simplicity, especially for those who are new to Smash. Yeah, some of them could get some buffs, but otherwise...
 

Quillion

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You know, Sephiroth is considered one of the simpler Ultimate newcomers, but he still has that weird one wing gimmick as a comeback mechanic.

Cone to think of it, can't things like One Wing and Lucario's aura just be made aesthetic variants of Rage? I don't mind Ultimate Rage as a mechanic, although it can be tweaked, but we don't need character gimmicks that add to that. Visually distinct rages could also just be cool to look at.
 

Diddy Kong

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Thank you. I've always felt like folks who think the Original 8/12 are too simple might be missing the appeal of their simplicity, especially for those who are new to Smash. Yeah, some of them could get some buffs, but otherwise...
Changing their movesets wouldn't necessarily make them anything less simple I feel. The changes I mostly want are making these characters more based around their canon abilities.

Mario, Samus and DK could still end up relatively simple, and just do more stuff they do in their games (Mario is already quite solid , I'd just do away with FLUDD and change it back to the more simple Mario Tornado and make D Air the Ground Pound). I'd change DK and Samus to be based around more to their archetypes, DK being a heavy weight lightning bruiser / grappler, and Samus being a long ranged weapons specialist who can be surprisingly deadly up close if given the opportunity. Samus needs to have the Charge Shot function exactly like in Metroid, DK needs a command grab type of Side B as the Headbutt makes no sense.
 

Quillion

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Mario is already quite solid , I'd just do away with FLUDD and change it back to the more simple Mario Tornado and make D Air the Ground Pound
Why would D Air be Ground Pound and not Goomba Stomp? Would the latter still be kept on the "dumping ground" Dr. Mario?
 

MBRedboy31

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Why would D Air be Ground Pound and not Goomba Stomp? Would the latter still be kept on the "dumping ground" Dr. Mario?
If we were to make Mario’s down air be Goomba Stomp, Dr. Mario’s down air wouldn’t be very accurate to it at all. I think a more accurate take would be something similar to Jake’s down air in Multiversus, where Mario would ready himself into a stomping position, and he would automatically bounce off of and weakly spike anyone who touches his shoes while in that pose.

Alternatively, they could just make his footstool deal a small amount of percent and play the iconic sound effect.
 

Opossum

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Overcomplicated characters are one of the factors that's turning me off Smash 4 and on, and I actively hope characters like Ryu, Kazuya, Min Min, and Villager get simplified to earlier standards.

However, I can mildly tolerate the idea of simple characters and complicated characters coexisting.

But anyone who says characters like Mario, Samus, and DK need to be updated to modern gimmicky standards is missing Smash's appeal.
Of all the characters that could be considered complex...Min Min is where you draw the line? When she technically doesn't even have a full set of four core specials since her neutral and side special are the same thing? And said specials are also used for her forward tilt and forward air so she can alternate which arm she's hitting with?

Min Min is probably the biggest example of why "unorthodox" doesn't necessarily mean "complicated." Her moveset is incredibly simple. There's no way she should be in the same conversation as Kazuya or Steve, the latter of whom wasn't even mentioned.
 

Chuderz

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Simplicity is overrated. The fun of the game is the actions you can do and I say the more the better. A simple dedicated tutorial mode and tutorial course for each character would go a long way in addressing concerns of approachability.
 

Sucumbio

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There's some characters in Ultimate I've never used cause they're a bit daunting. Steve, Shulk, Hero, BK, Terry, Robin, Bayonetta, Villager and Isabelle, even little mac are all more "complex" to me when compared to say, Marth. I get that to others none of those seem complex except maybe Steve but I'm sure the dev team must keep the lowest common denominator in mind so Steve is the stretch character and Marth or Mario are baseline. I'm good with it. I'm not opposed to more characters on the complexity scale of Steve. More than that would seem too much but again it'd just be yet another character I never use. Be a real shame if one of my most wanted ended up in that category tho...
 

SPEN18

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I personally gravitate more towards the simpler-styled movesets also. I don't mind having some more complex characters and/or gimmicks, and in some cases they can make for some nice fun, but I'd like for them to make good sense for the character and not feel forced or shoehorned in.

--

A simple dedicated tutorial mode and tutorial course for each character would go a long way in addressing concerns of approachability.
Sure, specialized tutorial modes for each character could potentially be helpful for players trying to transition from total newbie to a more intermediate level, and they could maybe even be implemented in a decently fun way if they were, say, turned into some sort of event-match type of thing, idk.

However, a lot of people just want to pick their favorite and jump into the fray with friends right away. There is a lot to be said from a game design perspective in terms of letting the gameplay teach itself instead of having to explicitly instruct players on successful strategies, especially in a casual-appeal party game like Smash. Smash specifically is designed in such a way that you don't have to learn any special combos/strategies/techniques in order to start experimenting with a whole bunch of your favorites; this is one of its big successes design-wise. I gotta think they value the pick-up-and-play aspect; a lot of people (including me) get introduced to Smash in group settings alongside other people who have played the game before and would rather let you jump in with them rather than sit and watch you go through a tutorial.
With any kind of tutorial mode for Smash, I feel that you have to be clear that it is strictly optional lest you turn off droves of party- and playdate-goers who just want to pick up and play. And at that point you have to ask yourself how many people are really going to use it to its fullest: casuals might never touch it if it isn't required and therefore hidden in the menus, while most people dedicated enough to try to become intermediate/advanced players are simply going to look to online sources for strats and techniques.

The other issue I didn't even mention above is the potential resource drain, especially with the big roster that I think most everybody wants.

So, yeah, I think character-specific tutorials could make some nice side-content if they aren't too resource-intensive, but they're not a replacement for supplying an ample selection of newbie-friendly playable characters.
 

Quillion

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If we were to make Mario’s down air be Goomba Stomp, Dr. Mario’s down air wouldn’t be very accurate to it at all. I think a more accurate take would be something similar to Jake’s down air in Multiversus, where Mario would ready himself into a stomping position, and he would automatically bounce off of and weakly spike anyone who touches his shoes while in that pose.

Alternatively, they could just make his footstool deal a small amount of percent and play the iconic sound effect.
It's an interesting approach, but I think the single stomp would be better for beginner shoto Mario.

Of all the characters that could be considered complex...Min Min is where you draw the line? When she technically doesn't even have a full set of four core specials since her neutral and side special are the same thing? And said specials are also used for her forward tilt and forward air so she can alternate which arm she's hitting with?

Min Min is probably the biggest example of why "unorthodox" doesn't necessarily mean "complicated." Her moveset is incredibly simple. There's no way she should be in the same conversation as Kazuya or Steve, the latter of whom wasn't even mentioned.
Yeah, but it's still not very intuitive when she's built to be an ARMS character transplanted to Smash instead of a Smash character paying homage to her ARMS origin.

Simplicity is overrated. The fun of the game is the actions you can do and I say the more the better. A simple dedicated tutorial mode and tutorial course for each character would go a long way in addressing concerns of approachability.
Dedicated tutorials ****ing suck because they're so disconnected from the game and railroad you, optional or not. Intuitive design doesn't need a tutorial.
 

Wonder Smash

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There's some characters in Ultimate I've never used cause they're a bit daunting. Steve, Shulk, Hero, BK, Terry, Robin, Bayonetta, Villager and Isabelle, even little mac are all more "complex" to me when compared to say, Marth. I get that to others none of those seem complex except maybe Steve but I'm sure the dev team must keep the lowest common denominator in mind so Steve is the stretch character and Marth or Mario are baseline. I'm good with it. I'm not opposed to more characters on the complexity scale of Steve. More than that would seem too much but again it'd just be yet another character I never use. Be a real shame if one of my most wanted ended up in that category tho...
Little Mac is more complex compared to Marth? I don't get that at all.
 

Gengar84

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Simplicity is overrated. The fun of the game is the actions you can do and I say the more the better. A simple dedicated tutorial mode and tutorial course for each character would go a long way in addressing concerns of approachability.
I think it completely depends on the character, personally. There’s plenty of room for both simple characters and more complex characters in Smash.

Some characters naturally lend themselves to more complex mechanics. For example if we wanted to represent the RTS genre with a character like Sarah Kerrigan from StarCraft, there are tons of cool mechanics that could be used to reference elements of RTS games and it find ways to implement them into Smash.

Other characters, like the Battletoads or other retro Beat’em’up characters have much more straight forward movesets so you wouldn’t really need any complex gimmicks to make them feel faithful. For the Battletoads specifically, their biggest gimmick could easily be relegated to purely visuals with their transforming limbs for their attacks.
 
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Sucumbio

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Little Mac is more complex compared to Marth? I don't get that at all.
Honestly yeah to me he's definitely more difficult to use. Besides his horrible recovery his timing and super armor, speed and ground range are ridiculous and yet against most of the cast isn't enough because it takes a lot of concentration to avoid commiting at the wrong time. Roy, Marth, Mario, Kirby these characters can press buttons a bunch and avoid real punishment. Little Mac throws a mistimed haymaker and he's thrown to his death lol it's dumb.
 

Wonder Smash

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Honestly yeah to me he's definitely more difficult to use. Besides his horrible recovery his timing and super armor, speed and ground range are ridiculous and yet against most of the cast isn't enough because it takes a lot of concentration to avoid commiting at the wrong time. Roy, Marth, Mario, Kirby these characters can press buttons a bunch and avoid real punishment. Little Mac throws a mistimed haymaker and he's thrown to his death lol it's dumb.
The Jolt Haymaker is pretty risky move to be using anyway. You'd find it much safer to use his tilts, which also serve as good setups for some of his specials.

Overall, while some of his matches may be challenging, Little Mac himself is not a hard character to play and I actually find him to be much more simpler to play than Marth (a character I never been good with since Melee).
 
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Idon

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Honestly yeah to me he's definitely more difficult to use. Besides his horrible recovery his timing and super armor, speed and ground range are ridiculous and yet against most of the cast isn't enough because it takes a lot of concentration to avoid commiting at the wrong time. Roy, Marth, Mario, Kirby these characters can press buttons a bunch and avoid real punishment. Little Mac throws a mistimed haymaker and he's thrown to his death lol it's dumb.
Difficult to win with =/= Difficult to use.

There are many good characters in this game with broken movesets that still require in-depth character knowledge to use. Conversely, there are also characters that are almost impossible to win with against good players but whose gameplan is very straightforward (just straight forwardly bad).

If I had to make a poor analogy, it's the difference of getting to point A to B using a car vs walking there. The car is easier to reach the destination but requires drivers' knowledge. Walking is a basic function that most people are able to perform instinctively, but the act of walking there is more difficult physically to do.
 
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