Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Ivander]

That COULD work, if it weren't for the fact Capcom is also rumored to be Sony's big Japanese buy. Granted, that theory mostly stands on the fact that we don't know what platforms Street Fighter 6 is coming to, but still.

It's only rumours, right? Cause I thought the people who claimed Sony was getting a big Japanese company also said it would've been revealed within the last week or something.

But it's like, man, if Sony has gotten one, I wish they'd reveal it by now and get the tension out of the way. Otherwise, I hope none of the big JP companies, aside from maybe Konami, were gotten by Sony.

 

[chocolatejr9]

It's only rumours, right? Cause I thought the people who claimed Sony was getting a big Japanese company also said it would've been revealed within the last week or something.

But it's like, man, if Sony has gotten one, I wish they'd reveal it by now and get the tension out of the way. Otherwise, I hope none of the big JP companies, aside from maybe Konami, were gotten by Sony.

Yeah, that seems to be the case. Though whats got me on edge is that apparently a bunch of the "reliable" (at least, as close to reliable as you can be in this business) insiders have been saying it. I don't remember EXACTLY who, but I believe Jeff Grub was one of them.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I was looking at the LEGO Mario Bros. trailer featuring Peach yesterday and I was wondering, what do people think about Chase McCain being a character in Smash? Nintendo has been working really well with LEGO lately. But even before that, Nintendo also published LEGO City Undercover (the game that Chase originated from) and the 3DS prequel. I guess as long as it has elements from those games, it should be safe and with a name as big as LEGO, that will surely garner some attention.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I was looking at the LEGO Mario Bros. trailer featuring Peach yesterday and I was wondering, what do people think about Chase McCain being a character in Smash? Nintendo has been working really well with LEGO lately. But even before that, Nintendo also published LEGO City Undercover (the game that Chase originated from) and the 3DS prequel. I guess as long as it has elements from those games, it should be safe and with a name as big LEGO, that will surely garner some attention.

That feels like adding Count Dracula Duck from the DuckTales game. It might technically be a video game character, but in the end it’s DuckTales all the same.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I was looking at the LEGO Mario Bros. trailer featuring Peach yesterday and I was wondering, what do people think about Chase McCain being a character in Smash? Nintendo has been working really well with LEGO lately. But even before that, Nintendo also published LEGO City Undercover (the game that Chase originated from) and the 3DS prequel. I guess as long as it has elements from those games, it should be safe and with a name as big LEGO, that will surely garner some attention.

I'm oldish, so my first thought for a LEGO rep always goes to Pepper from the LEGO Island games.

Chase would be a really fun addition for me. It would bring my major childhood pastimes together in a cool way. Apparently LEGO's doing pretty decently in Asia, too, which is something I didn't know until about 2 minutes ago, so my biggest questions are taken care of.

I don't think LEGO in Smash will actually happen, though, as cool as it would be. In the past LEGO has always been quick to pick up licenses and slow to lend them out outside of dedicated LEGO videogames, and with those they generally stick with the same developers for a long time. On top of that, it would require a very specific set of circumstances for Nintendo to go for a LEGO rep over hundreds of videogame-first series.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I'm oldish, so my first thought for a LEGO rep always goes to Pepper from the LEGO Island games.

Chase would be a really fun addition for me. It would bring my major childhood pastimes together in a cool way. Apparently LEGO's doing pretty decently in Asia, too, which is something I didn't know until about 2 minutes ago, so my biggest questions are taken care of.

I don't think LEGO in Smash will actually happen, though, as cool as it would be. In the past LEGO has always been quick to pick up licenses and slow to lend them out outside of dedicated LEGO videogames, and with those they generally stick with the same developers for a long time. On top of that, it would require a very specific set of circumstances for Nintendo to go for a LEGO rep over hundreds of videogame-first series.

Yeah, it was really just a thought. While I can't really speak on his chances, at least we know he's eligible and not completely out of the discussion.

Though, when you think about, having a LEGO character in a game where all of the other characters are just figurines "coming to life" would actually make sense.

That feels like adding Count Dracula Duck from the DuckTales game. It might technically be a video game character, but in the end it’s DuckTales all the same.

That's very different. Chase is the main character of a game that has its own world and story whereas Count Dracula Duck is the main antagonist of a game that's based on a TV series.

 

[Chuderz]

Since we're on the subject of simplifying movesets let's instead make them more complicated shall we?!?

Spoiler: Aerial Rush

Aerial rush: Double-tap the control stick in one direction while in the air to do Aerial-Rush. Doing so will utilize your air-dodge and vice versa. It's kind of like DBFZ dragon rush implemented into Smash. They're based on the trampoline jumps on the ARMS stage (in both their golden animation and function as an attack) except they're heavily nerfed. They travel the same distance as an average short hop (or the worst one), do much less damage (around 5-7%) and their only hitbox is in the direction you aim them in so Aerial-Rush going up will only have a hitbox above your head while Downward Aerial-Rush will have one below you and Left/Right will function accordingly. Diagonal Aerial-Rush does not exist and in the case you input it the game will register the one closest to where your input landed. They have next to no knockback so they're good for combo extensions. They can be shielded and air-dodged very easily which can lead to punishment for careless spammers.

Spoiler: Crouch/Overhead Attacks

Up-Jab (A-button) will now be what's called an Overhead-Attack and Down-Jab will be what's called a Crouch-Attack. Crouch-Attacks could be retooled/reanimated (slightly reanimated really) versions of characters' established ledge/get-up attacks. A quicker option to catch rolls like most Down-Smash attacks already do. Cloud would get his ledge attack for a lower poke/swipe attack. Tilt-stick will be the locked standardized function of the right-stick along with its usual aerial attack inputs in order to make space for these inclusions and walking jabs. Smash and Special stick are taken out back to the pasture while Jump-Stick will remain an option but will be defaulted off. Remnants of the old tilt system still remain though with Up-Diagonal-Left/Right-Jab (A-button) will still do Up-Tilts and switch your angle (relative to your position of course) of attack accordingly upon input as will Down-Diagonal-Left/Right-Jab will do the same. For example his means that if you're facing right but input Down-Diagonal-Left-Jab your character will immediately do Down-Tilt toward the left and this works for Up-Tilts as well and this functionality already exists in Ultimate today. Characters without "Walking-Jabs" (my next spoiler) will also do their Forward-Tilt when pressing the jab button while walking and should they have an angled Forward-Tilt then their attack goes in the angle of the player's input as is already the case.

Spoiler: Walking Jabs

Some characters like Megaman Steve and maybe Samus will get a "Walking Jab" attack where their jab is actionable in a walking state. This allows for their Forward-Tilt to be freed up for a unique attack. Any character with this "Walking Jab" will have their Neutral-Air set to it as a standard design choice.

Spoiler: R3/L3 Functionality/Implementation Idea

R3 and L3 are now able to be button mapped. They can only be mapped to auto-lock and Final Smash although a tag-in feature for Squad Strike will be tied to inputting R3 and L3 together simultaneously. It'll go in the order of your Squad-Strike team just like Pokemon Trainer. Auto-lock is negated with multiple opponents on the field as is already the case. A new core mechanic of Auto-Lock will be repositioning the facing direction of your character in midair towards your opponent if you turn it from off to on in air.

Spoiler: Super Smash Attacks!!!

Everybody gets Terry's GO! Meter! To keep it short and sweet everybody gets two (Terry's) command input attacks when their GO! meter (it can either keep saying GO!, or SMASH! or even more universally be the Smash Icon itself) activates like Terry. Doing the attack damages your character some (think Pichu) and fatigues your character (whether you landed it or not) for a set amount of time determined by both how much you mash out and how damaged you are.

This fatigued state can either function as a debuff (think like Brawl Pokemon Trainer's fatigued Pokemon that'd be out for too long) or like how a shield-break works by putting you in the dazed state. The debuff version would be nice for diversity's sake but the dazed effect would be more practical to implement. I think I'd prefer the debuff version so long as the more you moved and attacked (minus stale repetitive moves) got you out of it with the game obviously taking the players damage into consideration for how much this the player will be to act to get out of this debuffed state. I imagine it'd be animated like glowy pink/red overlapping over the character except whereas in the dazed state you cannot move at all until you mash out of it in this debuff state you'll be able to move with the glowy pink/red overlap animation simply serving as a visual indication to the player that they are in the debuffed state.

Super-Smash-Attacks about as fast and accurate as Terry's two special command input GO! moves. I thought maybe Fighting Game Characters (Kazuya, Terry, Ryu/Ken) wouldn't get fatigued using these moves as well to keep it a little bit more special for them but I'd offset this by having them damage themselves more to compensate for this perk.

Cloud's "Buster Wolf" Super Smash Attack would be Ascension, his new Limit Break from FFVll Remake. Cloud lunges forward towards the enemy and swings his blade horizontally from each side in quick succession of one another. Should these attacks connect he'll stab his blade forward for the third strike and lift them in the air doing tons of damage and knockback.

Cloud's "Power Geyser" Super Smash Attack would be another brand new limit from a later entry of the FFVll Remake series yet to be released.

Banjo's "Buster Wolf" Super Smash Attack would have him transforming into his van transformation to run over his opponents. It's pretty self-explanatory but Kazooie wacks Banjo with Mumbo's staff to make this occur.

Banjo's "Power Geyser" Super Smash Attack would also have Kazooie whack Banjo with Mumbo's staff turning him into the smallest version of his T.Rex transformation from Banjo-Tooie. He'll do a sweeping headbutt attack and should the attack connect with the opponent they'll then be launched at a fixed distance above Banjo's character and as that happens Kazooie will whack him with Mumbo's staff again turning Banjo into a bigger T.Rex (about as big as a giant mushroom would I guess) and Banjo will chomp the enemy player. I think a funny gimmick would be having it be a guaranteed kill if the enemy player is over like 200% damage like Hero's thwack spell does with the added effect of having the blast zone animation spring out of Banjo's T.Rex mouth should these conditions be met. Same thing happens in stamina mode if the damage output of this attack exceeds the opponents remaining stamina.

Cloud Ascension visual reference: https://youtu.be/HTF9TZ82SH0?t=9

Spoiler: Final Smash Competitive Overhaul

Meter no longer builds on its own at all. You fight to build your meter. If you have exactly or over half your meter when you lose a stock (or get KO'd in stamina mode) you lose half of that meter and if you have less than half your meter you lose ALL of your meter when losing a stock.

Make Final Smashes blockable but of course if your shield is weak it's either a break or a confirm, whatever Smash team thinks would be best. Assign a specific button (strictly either R3 or L3) to Final Smash attacks so that you can use your specials in the charged state.

All characters get a competitive Final Smash so some characters will have two Final Smashes, this can be addressed in advance rules (i.e. locking characters to their competitive Final Smash). Competitive Final Smashes are essentially cutscenes/inescapable-attack-sequences that do a fixed amount of damage across the entire cast (I'd keep it a strict 30 damage; 40 tops) and knockback is exclusively determined (balanced) by the exact weight of the character on the receiving end. Some characters already have competitive Final Smashes (based on my criteria) so they're fine as is and just need the updates everyone else is getting. Some characters' "uncompetitive" Final Smashes can be incorporated into Super Smash Attacks instead in some cases. Peach's and Daisy's heals would be an example of NOT fitting either a retooled Super Smash Attack or a competitive Final Smash. All of these competitive Final Smashes will be locked to either an R3 or L3 input. Final Smash attacks with reticle aimers will be considered uncompetitive. If competitive Final Smash attacks are not turned on in advanced rules then every character with what is considered an uncompetitive Final Smash Attack will have that Final Smash attack defaulted to. Nerfed versions of "big-blaster" Final Smash attacks (Samus, Inkling, Mario/Doc) could potentially be retooled into Super Smash attacks I believe.

Spoiler: Universal Counter System

The entire cast gets a counter and it's its own dedicated button like grab is. Characters unique counters like Sephiroth's and Sora's will have theirs moved to this button just like everyone else. This creates a positive feedback loop of defense options of parry, shield, dodge and counter. Pressing the counter button while shielding will result in a spotdodge.

Spoiler: Universal Shield-Special Implementation

My Shield-Specials design philosophy would be:

• They're completely grounded as in they can't be used in the air
• 
  
• Either a utility move (Ink refill, Steve's crafting table) or a "charged" (Ivysaur would have Solar Beam for example) move or uncancelable attack once inputted so be carry to not hit the special button while shielding!
• 
  
• If it's a charged attack then you have to complete the full charge in one go subjecting yourself to a potential punishment. Impossible to shield out of or cancel in any way.
• 
  
• Should take about as long to fully complete the attack as it takes Inkling's ink meter to go from empty to full or a bit like longer like 20-40% longer.
  
  I think this is the ideal design philosophy around these hypothetical Shield-Specials because I think the limitation gives them a distinction and more importantly narrows down what attacks would suit their input. Some of the ones I've thought of already such are giving Banjo a reskin of Bowser Jr.'s Down-Special in the form of Clockwork Kazooie eggs but obviously unlike Bowser Jr.'s Banjo would be subjected to the risks of it being a Shield-Special input so it'd take some time to manufacture the Clockwork Kazooie egg and should he fail to fully charge it he can't cancel out of it.
  
  Another character I thought of getting a Shield-Special input was Cloud. Though I think Cloud would specifically benefit from a slight departure. He'd get the best of both worlds with his Shield-Special acting as a utility move but functionally being new attacks with none of the risks but it is sort of a hassle in its own right to activate and navigate through. I'm talking about Materia Menu being his Shield-Special. It'd be very similar to Hero's but Cloud couldn't use it in the air and he'd be limited to 4 spells that would remain static in their respective slots. Cloud would gain a Mana bar of 100 that wouldn't passively build up like Hero's does. Cloud would have to land attacks to gain his Mana. His spells would be Fire, Ice, Lightning and Cure respectively. Fire, Ice and Lightning would each cost 50 Mana and Cure would cost 100 Mana. His current Materia taunt would be reappropriated as the attack animation and would be the exact same length of animation as the taunt currently is in the game. Since the move is being treated like a utility move Cloud is allowed to Shield out of it but it's still a little laggy similar to Inking going from their Shield-Special refill state to a Shielded state. Cloud's Limit-charged Shield-Special would be Meteorain because it's his last remaining Limit-Break not yet in the game and it kind of makes up for there being no Earth Materia in his Materia Menu. You won't have to hold the Shield-Special input as it's just an instant commit into the full move just like his Limit-charged Cross-Slash for example.

Robin's would be a utility move that charges their tomes.

Peach's would be her moods from her Super Princess Peach game. I actually want to give Peach her own post of my changes to her.

Spoiler: Universal Back-Special Implementation

The entire cast gets Back-Specials: The only philosophy I'd have for back-specials is that more times than not it'd be best for them to be an alternative recovery option like Terry's currently works. Using one of your Side-Specials in the air negates the use of the other one even if you can use your Up-Special afterward just like Terry. Basically Back-Specials function just like Terry's in the air/off-stage. If you don't really play Terry don't worry it's not hard to get used to this. Sakurai even made note of it when he introduced crack shoot. You just have to let neutralize your control stick for an instant then input it in the direction of the stage just before you input the special button. With this, even when facing away from the stage you'll Back-Special back towards it so long as your Back-Special functions as a recovery option I guess. Of course you can also turn the Auto-Lock on or off and like I said doing so midair in a 1v1 will reposition your character to face the direction of your opponent midair. It's better to turn off the Auto-Lock when going offstage with your Back-Special to actually land the attack out there.

Spoiler: Universal Spotdodge-Attack System

The entire cast gets Terry's Spotdodge-Attack. This attack could be retooled from characters' tilts (Terry's is his Up-Tilt) or jabs. Cloud's should be his final sword swing from his jab. They'll have different damage and knockback properties just like Terry's works.

Spoiler: Aerial Smash Attacks

Sakurai WANTS YOU to have Aerial Smash attacks! You can't charge them but there basically strong aerial attacks. This is another reason why Tilt-Stick is being standardized and Smash-Stack is being gotten rid of completely so as to make sure normal aerial attacks are a distinct input (using the tilt-stick midair) completely separated from Aerial-Smash-Attacks. Smash-Stick users are already accustomed to using the right-stick for aerials so this wouldn't be a big change. To do Aerial-Smash-Attacks you simply input the direction + jab simultaneously while midair to do the attack. You can still perform your aerials with the jab (A-button) inputs by simply desyncing the directional and jab inputs and if you're already inputting the direction on the control stick then a simple tap of the jab input will register the appropriate aerial.

Spoiler: Neutral Smash Attacks

Jab + Special (A+B) does a new Neutral Smash attack. What do they do? Well they really go in any direction depending on the character. Some hit downward, some will hit upward and some will hit forward. It's just an extra smash attack really.

Characters like Cloud and Duck Hunt who don't have a simultaneous left/right area of attack Smash (think Pacman's Down-Smash) will get one for their Neutral-Smash-Attack. Cloud will raise the hilt of his blade above his head and stab the ground causing quake-like damage on both sides of himself similar to Sora's Down-Smash.

Characters with Down-Smash attacks that don't hit both sides simultaneously and don't scoop (scoop as in like Cloud and Duck Hunt's Down-Smash attacks do) like Captain Falcon's and Snake's will scoop. Snake's Neutral-Smash could be one that actually aims in front of himself as opposed to the heavily Downward angle of his current Forward-Smash.

Characters with like spin like Pyra/Mythra will scoop similar to Pikachu's Down-Smash. These Down-Smash changes are just my attempt to diversify their application as a means to differentiate their use by players.

I basically think the way to make sure these Neutral-Smash-Attacks aren't redundant is to give most characters a scooping Down-Smash and a simultaneous attack on both sides Neutral-Smash and these positions can be reversed if need be and may not be suitable for every character like Snake who would gain more from having a Neutral-Smash that aimed more directly in front of himself.

Spoiler: Universal ZAIR Implementation

Everyone gets a ZAIR whether they have a tether or not. It can just be a basic low damage, low start/end lag aerial Think Mario and Fox's Neutral-Air. No reason for grab to input as an air-dodge midair when we already have shield for that! It doesn't have to be basic though! You can get creative with it like giving Robin a fire or lightning aerial or Steve could shoot an arrow. Villager and Isabelle's Back-Air and Forward could be freed up by this too by having their slingshot work as their ZAIR. Losing the Back-Air animation wouldn't be a major loss or anything since it's essentially the same attack two ways. ZAIRS can only go in the direction you're facing just like they currently work. Neutral-Airs already work like this too so it's no big change asking the player to simply make the proper positioning adjustments to land the attack. Characters with tether grabs will keep their normal ZAIRS.

Spoiler: Universal Crouch Dash Implementation

Everybody gets Kazuya's crouch dash. That's it. It's a nice option that'll lend itself to a faster game with more depth.

Spoiler: Character Specific Crawl-Attack Implementation

Every character with a Crawl will get a Crawl-Attack. Crawl-Attack will not be actionable in the middle of a crouch transitioning to a crawling state or while being stationary in one. Only while actively crawling will this attack being actionable. You'll simply input a jab while crawling to input the attack. If a character has both a Walking-Jab and a Crawl-Attack they'll both obviously be distinct from each other and recognized as such by the game. Snake actually has a Crawl-Attack in Project M! It's a knife stab! So cool!

Spoiler: Dedicated Short-Hop button Implementation

Short-Hop will have its own dedicated button option in the button-mapping menu. If you press Short-Hop and Jump at the same time you'll do a Short-Hop. Of course pressing two Jump buttons at the same time will also result in a Short-Hop as is currently the case.

Spoiler: Special-Ground-Get-Up-Attacks/Special-Pummels/Special-Ledge-Get-Up-Attacks

I'm gonna take a queue from Rivals of Aether 2 and add this to the thought pile since the entire point of this post is to give people ideas on how Smash could be expanded upon from where it currently is. Anyway onto the point!

Characters will now be given Special options for their Ledge/Ground-Get-Up-Attacks and their Pummels! They'll of course be activated by simply inputting Special when in any of these respective states. Grounded-Get-Up-Attack-Specials and Special-Pummels will always be MUCH slower than their normal counterparts. Ledge-Get-Up-Attack-Specials will sometimes be an attack but will more often be a simple stage recovery mix-up option.

Since I always use Cloud for these examples that's who I'm gonna go with. Cloud's Special-Pummel will be throwing a Molotov at his opponent. Cloud sticks his sword into the ground (similar to how Hero does it for their Forward-Throw) then manifests the Molotov in his hand to throw at the grabbed enemy. It hits harder than his regular pummel and leaves a little burn damage DOT of about 5% over 5 seconds on the opponent and this DOT doesn't stack so if you manage to throw 2 at the opponent from a single grab you have only reset the timer. After about 80-90% of the way through the animation of this Special-Pummel it'll be a guaranteed connect even if the grabbed players has inputted the appropriate amount of mashing though when the Special-Pummel is finished connecting the grab will be broken in the instance of that. If the appropriate amount of mashing is completed by the grabbed player BEFORE that 80-90% marker is reached then the attack will be canceled with the Molotov evaporating like a regular disappearing item and as the grab breaks Cloud will grab his sword from the ground to resume regular combat.

Cloud's Grounded-Get-Up-Attack-Special will be Deadly Waste. Cloud brings his torso up while his butt or knees are still grounded (depending on if you're on your belly or back) and opens/pours a bottle of Deadly Waste on the ground which creates a small green toxic bubbly area of attack around him while he gets up. It doesn't damage Cloud and has a 50% chance to put a poison DOT on enemies hit by it for 10% over 5 seconds.

Cloud's Ledge-Get-Up-Attack-Special will be T/S Bomb. Cloud gets back onto the stage in the same he does for his Neutral-Ledge-Get-Up (not doing any attack by simply inputting the control stick toward the stage as you're holding the ledge) but this time he throws a T/S Bomb directly forward that goes about as far as Snake's grenade when inputted to go directly forward. It's a multihit when it lands on an enemy and has about as much knockback as a typical Snake grenade otherwise. I'd say it does between about 115% to 120% of Snake's grenade as far as damage goes.

An alternative idea to a Ledge-Get-Up-Attack-Special could be Mewtwo/Zelda/Palutena teleporting or Bayonetta using Bats Within as a sort of attack/teleport combination. Hero could use Zoom except he gets zoomed back to the corner of the stage he was on automatically. The sky is the limit. Just a matter of getting creative with it.

Visual references for T/S Bomb and Deadly Waste. I think you can imagine a Molotov yourselves haha.

T/S Bomb: https://youtu.be/9ztmvSPRZAw?t=21
Deadly Waste: https://youtu.be/v1LkzQCaH98?t=35

Spoiler: Super-Smash-Specials/Empowered-Special-State

The entire cast will be given a new core mechanic with regards to their specials. Either they will be given a one-time use of a supercharged special attack similar to Cloud's Limit or they will enter an empowered state that buffs their entire character including specials similar to Joker's Arsene state. There are two ways to generate this mete. There's the active charge like Cloud's Limit or the quasi-counter like Joker's Rebel-Guard. These methodologies could be applied in a hybrid fashion to the other with a character getting an active charge like Limit to enter an empowered state like Arsene or conversely having to use a quasi-counter like Rebel's Guard in order to meet the conditions for a single use of a supercharged special like Limit does for Cloud.

The charge or quasi-counter will need a dedicated button (similar to grab) in order to function as opposed to being mapped to a special input.

This will essentially free up both Cloud and Joker's Down-Specials. I will elaborate on what I would make Cloud's Down-Special to those interested but I will spoiler it because it's not really relevant to my thoughts on Super-Smash-Specials itself as a concept. Cloud's Down-Special could be a normal Finishing Touch that does next to no Knockback whatsoever but is a decent multi-hit/true-combo kind of move that racks up decent damage which would then flip to the normal next to no damage but tremendous knockback super variant we're all used to.

I'd further say that each character should have a meter that's appropriately aesthetical to their character and if this can be directly lifted from one of their games then that's great! If not just make up something appropriately themed.

 

[DarthEnderX]

What does this mean for Capcom and Sega? They join forces with Nintendo and work to re-create the NES/SNES/Genesis days of glory when Capcom made a lot of games with Nintendo back then and Sega to make a sequel to the Nintendo vs Genesis wars of uniting together against a greater foe?

I would argue you can't recreate the NES/SNES glory days without SquareEnix and Konami.

 

[Sucumbio]

I think we can maybe get one new universal move like air shields or something... All that tho that's like way too much for a game meant to be pick up and play.

 

[Chuderz]

I think we can maybe get one new universal move like air shields or something... All that tho that's like way too much for a game meant to be pick up and play.

I don't think that's necessarily fair. A simple tutorial mode could alleviate any of those concerns what exactly would be the concern for the sloppy casual player here? The people that notoriously just randomly press buttons now have more options? These types of players aren't even concerned with winning a match I think.

A lot of this stuff is just untapped potential (aerial rush) or using inputs already registered in the game that doing something redundant. I think it'd give the game more depth and be lots of fun for all types of players.

 

[Stratos]

I really wanted to see E3 2022, but the covid-19 broke it so we will not see or hear information about future Nintendo games and we will have to wait for E3 2023, too bad.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I really wanted to see E3 2022, but the covid-19 broke it so we will not see or hear information about future Nintendo games and we will have to wait for E3 2023, too bad.

I mean, what's stopping Nintendo from having a June Direct like normal?

 

[Stratos]

I mean, what's stopping Nintendo from having a June Direct like normal?

You're right.

 

[skylanders fan]

Nintendo is going to have announcements with or without E3

 

[fogbadge]

I'm oldish, so my first thought for a LEGO rep always goes to Pepper from the LEGO Island games.

now i feel oldish

 

[Perkilator]

I just had a thought; went if Traveler's Tales went on to work with Sakurai on game development after LEGO Star Wars: The Complete Saga?

 

[Reksew_Trebla]

Is this thread, or if not, this subforum, a good place to put Smash Movesets we come up with? I have one for Great Fairies from the Zelda franchise, and in its own thread on Ultimate General Discussion subforum, but it doesn't seem to be garnering any attention, so I feel like I put it in the wrong place.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I just had a thought; went if Traveler's Tales went on to work with Sakurai on game development after LEGO Star Wars: The Complete Saga?

Depends on what WB has planned for them next...

Is this thread, or if not, this subforum, a good place to put Smash Movesets we come up with? I have one for Great Fairies from the Zelda franchise, and in its own thread on Ultimate General Discussion subforum, but it doesn't seem to be garnering any attention, so I feel like I put it in the wrong place.

You can try here. People post movesets in this thread all the time.

 

[Perkilator]

Depends on what WB has planned for them next...

I meant the 2007 Complete Saga

 

[Reksew_Trebla]

You can try here. People post movesets in this thread all the time.

Thank you for the response! I guess I'll post it here then.

Anyways, here is my idea for a Great Fairy moveset. If anyone has some suggestions, as it isn't completely finished, I'd be welcome to them.

The Great Fairy wields the Red Shield (artwork version) from A Link To The Past, and the Great Fairy's Sword from Majora's Mask.

The Red Shield was chosen because a Great Fairy can upgrade the Fighter's Shield into the Red Shield, and the reason the Golden Sword is NOT used is because, well, come on. The Great Fairy's Sword was obviously the sword of choice for a Great Fairy. It would also obviously be a one handed weapon for a Great Fairy, due to their size, so that's also partly why the Red Shield was added.

Spoiler: Costumes

(from Majora's Mask): Great Fairy of Magic, Great Fairy of Power, Great Fairy of Wisdom, Great Fairy of Courage, Great Fairy of Kindness, (from Hyrule Warriors): Dark Great Fountain Fairy (default Great Fairy, but when using the Dark Link Costume), Great Forest Fairy (Bee outfit), and Great Sky Fairy (Crimson Loftwing outfit).

Spoiler: Attributes

Will be floaty and/or light.

Will be fast.

At least 3 Midair Jumps. Ground Jump is the biggest of all of them. Will hold a Roc's Feather Lv 2 when Ground Jumping, and on last Midair Jump as well (Four Swords Adventures reference, can upgrade the Roc's Feather. First two Midair Jumps are because she can fly).

Spoiler: Fighter Abilities

Passive Shield: She has a shield, so she has the same Fighter Ability as the Links and Hero.

Magic Meter:

Using any Special except Down Special, as well as the Spin Attack (other Fighter Ability) will drain the MM.

MM does not naturally recharge.

MM is refilled when KOed.

Taking damage will decrease the MM.

When the MM is depleted, the Great Fairy will split into Stray Fairies (Majora's Mask), with one Stray Fairy going into the background (same position on the z-axis as the actual Pokémon Trainer, or maybe a little bit further into the background, but only a little bit), and the rest being controlled as a single unit.

Stray Fairy form can only move and jump. No shield/air dodge/roll.

Magic Meter will slowly fill during this time, and will not deplete when damaged. When it is full, the Great Fairy Mask (Majora's Mask) will appear in the middle of the controlled unit, drawing the background Stray Fairy to the group, and reform the Great Fairy.

Stray Fairies use the color of their Player Color (same as Majora's Mask for the 5 based on those Great Fairies, Dark Link coloration for the Dark Great Fairy, and default color, but with Bee or Crimson Loftwing outfit for said alt costumes).

Spin Attack:

The Spin Attack is a unique pseudo Neutral Smash, as it is a change to their Jab. Instead of coming out right away like other jabs, the Great Fairy's Jab will delay a moment. If the A button is held instead of tapped, the Jab will instead start charging a Spin Attack, like in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask.

No to low charge is magicless Spin Attack. Medium Charge is Blue Magic Spin Attack, and Fully Charged is the double spin Red Magic Spin Attack. It'll have the same general power as a Special or Smash Attack, due to the charge, and the fact it delays the Jab, but it won't use anywhere near as much Magic as a Special.

Spoiler: Specials and Final Smash

For her Neutral, Side, and Up Specials, she will use the same Goddess Spells that Zelda uses. However, they will function the same way they do in Ocarina of Time, instead of how they work for Zelda. This includes high starting lag, due to having to do the spell animation from Ocarina of Time. As a result, they won't use quite as much Magic as you'd think they would for how powerful they are, but they do still use a lot of Magic nonetheless. Unlike in Ocarina of Time, they can obviously be used in the air. Also, they have a short cooldown period, because of how powerful they are.

Neutral: Nayru's Love. Will last around the time of a Super Star. No other Special can be used while the forcefield is active, and the Spin Attack will always be the magicless variant when using this. While no damage is taken, knockback is actually multiplied by 1.5x during its use. This is in reference to how strong attacks, like Ganon's sword swings, can still knock Link back when using Nayru's Love, even though they don't damage him.

Side: Din's Fire. Will be at least as big as a Smart Bomb explosion, and centered on the Great Fairy.

Up: Farore's Wind. You do not need to set up a warp point before hand, as it will spawn you on a Respawn Platform. This does not count as actually respawning though, so you do not become invincible.

Down Special: Magic Recharge. Other than waiting after depletion, or respawning, this is the only way to recharge the Magic Meter. However, any damage taken while doing so will deplete twice as much from the Magic Meter, and stop the move. I guess you could draw parallels to Cloud's Limit Charge for this, except instead of filling something that normally isn't filled, it refills something that is usually filled. Based off of how Great Fairies fully restore your Health and Magic Meter, but healing damage would be too OP, so it would only restore the Magic Meter in Smash.

Final Smash: Silver Arrow and Great Fairy's Tears. Unfortunately, I have to make this a near copy of Link's Final Smash, except she shoots Silver Arrows. The origin is the Cursed (Fat) Fairy, from A Link To The Past, who grants Link the Silver Arrows.

However, this Final Smash will be weaker than Link's (even if not canonically accurate), as after she fires the Silver Arrow, she will drink a bottle of Great Fairy's Tears, which give a 1.5x multiplier to her sword based attacks for 16 seconds, or until she gets damaged, whichever happens first. They don't heal her though, as again, that would be a bit much even for a Final Smash.

Spoiler: Grab, Pummel, and Throws

Grab: Bottle. Swipes with a bottle. If it lands, the enemy will be put in the bottle. This also acts as a reflector, but will never increase the damage (reference to Hyrule Warriors, and the reflector is a reference to the Ganondorf fight in Ocarina of Time).

Pummel: Shakes the bottle.

Forward Throw: Swings the opened bottle foward, accidentally throws it, then throws the Magic Boomerang to retrieve it (A Link To The Past reference, can upgrade the Boomerang in said game).

Back Throw: Puts a bomb in the opened bottle, then swings it behind her, throwing both the enemy and bomb out (A Link To The Past reference, can upgrade Bomb Bag).

Up Throw: Swings opened bottle up, then uses a Bow and Arrow at the enemy (A Link To The Past reference, can upgrade the Quiver).

Down Throw: Swings opened bottle down, then swings the Magic Hammer Lv 2 on the enemy (Four Swords Adventures reference, can upgrade the Magic Hammer).

Spoiler: Smash Attacks

Foward Smash: Swings the Fire Rod lv 2, throwing the block forward a tiny bit, then detonating it (Four Swords Adventures reference, can upgrade the Fire Rod).

Up Smash: Shoots the Slingshot Lv 2 up in 3 directions (Four Swords Adventures reference, can upgrade the Slingshot).

Down Smash: Uses the Shovel lv 2 to bury opponents (Four Swords Adventures reference, can upgrade the Shovel).

She would use sword attacks for her normal Jab, Tilts, Dash Attack, and Aerials. The only ones of those I maybe have an idea on is the Dash Attack which would be the standing forward stab attack Link uses in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, when Z-Targeting, and the Down Tilt, which would be the crouching stab attack from the same games.

Yes, I realize it would be ironic that the Great Fairy would use more tools than all 3 Links combined, but it works, in my opinion.

 

[Sucumbio]

I don't think that's necessarily fair. A simple tutorial mode could alleviate any of those concerns what exactly would be the concern for the sloppy casual player here? The people that notoriously just randomly press buttons now have more options? These types of players aren't even concerned with winning a match I think.

A lot of this stuff is just untapped potential (aerial rush) or using inputs already registered in the game that doing something redundant. I think it'd give the game more depth and be lots of fun for all types of players.

I dunno... Like countering for example is reserved for a few cast members but if everyone gets one then its reason becomes muddled. Like, if you take away countering from those who have it, arguably their kits become less viable as a result. Maybe some worse than others, sure, but I see it as giving those characters a defensive option needed to balance their lack of something else. By giving it to everyone they stay the same and now everyone else can counter too eliminating this particular advantage.

Going by your example incorporating one of Terry's moves is kind of the same... By taking one character's uniqueness and spreading it to everyone that to me detracts from his balance by making everyone else that much better.

I think some of these ideas could work, like reworking the smash meter, etc. But making universal moves available that are taken from specific characters and applying them broadly seems to me problematic.

 

[Chuderz]

I dunno... Like countering for example is reserved for a few cast members but if everyone gets one then its reason becomes muddled. Like, if you take away countering from those who have it, arguably their kits become less viable as a result. Maybe some worse than others, sure, but I see it as giving those characters a defensive option needed to balance their lack of something else. By giving it to everyone they stay the same and now everyone else can counter too eliminating this particular advantage.

Going by your example incorporating one of Terry's moves is kind of the same... By taking one character's uniqueness and spreading it to everyone that to me detracts from his balance by making everyone else that much better.

I think some of these ideas could work, like reworking the smash meter, etc. But making universal moves available that are taken from specific characters and applying them broadly seems to me problematic.

I appreciate the consideration. In the hypothetical universal counter scenario, the characters with counters would simply have that move remapped to the counter button and would gain new specials to replace the move. I mainly see it as an option to counter (I guess pun intended) the rushdown style of gameplay characteristic of a character like Cloud. Another example, the aerial rush idea I had would get borderline invalidated by smart use of the counter so it'd be a balancing effort there in order to give all the characters a new fast core mechanic. I don't play every character but ideally they'd get buffed in the proper way to make up for their former specific option becoming a universal option across the cast. Whether that'd be the design around the new special or that plus some attribute buffs I can't say.

I personally feel Terry introduced so much great material to Smash that I think it'd be absolutely criminal to keep it entirely to him. It's way too broad of game design to keep it to one character. Ideally again I'd give Terry stuff to help replace the stuff getting universalized across the cast. I didn't get into it because I didn't think it was relevant to my post (I'm really glad you brought it up though) but I'd like to make Fighting-Game-Characters (FGC) their own special class of character in Smash by sharing what's left of what makes them unique with each other. I do not include the likes of Min-Min in my FGC designation as it's reserved for traditional fighting game characters.

Here's my list of FGC perks:

• Terry's quick cancels into Specials get shared across the FGC cast members
• Kazuya's omnidirectional tilts (8-tilts) get shared across the FGC cast members
• Kazuya's command grab gets shared across the FGC cast members
• Kazuya's dynamic/cinematic camera is used for all the FGC cast members' throws
• Kazuya's 3 Crouch-Attacks (which would be two extra if everyone got a crouch attack) gets shared across the FGC cast members
• Kazuya's Standing-Attack gets shared across the FGC cast members
• Ryu and Ken's heavy/light attack variants for their tilts get shared across FGC cast members
• Ryu and Ken's long-ranged and short-ranged Final Smash attacks get shared across the FGC cast members
• FGC cast members wouldn't get fatigued using my Super Smash Attack system but would take extra damage from them
• FGC cast members all get a taunt attack like Kazuya. Current taunts get be worked into this like Ryu's Down-Taunt.

They could even still have little quirks here and there like Kazuya's tough guy and Ryu/Ken's jumping air-friction being locked at 0 and maybe Terry could keep his quick cancels to himself or get something else.

Basically it'd just end up being that being a FGC would be what made the character special as opposed to something uniquely their own. Sure some charm is lost in that but in its place an entire arsenal of new options would be gained. That's not everybody's priority and that's fine but I don't think literally adding content/moves into the game takes anything way other than the aforementioned abstract charm and I'd rather have tangible objective moveset options than abstract subjective charm any day.

Now I understand that FGC are already considered complicated and I just raised that distinction to its most extreme level but I personally think that's the real charm of these characters. You wouldn't main these characters unless you were committed to learning them and hey if you managed to main one well you could theoretically play the other ones very well too. Lots of MOBAs and a game like Overwatch have these difficulty ratings for their characters and ideally you'd at least put that in the game as a means of informing players of their steep learning curves. Even more ideally you could have a specific "regimen" mode for each character that acts as a focused basic gameplan starting course for each character in the game after you finished the tutorial mode.

The tutorial mode could be like Melee Event mode in that it's a checklist. Kind of like the Uncle Punch Melee mod. Actually other fighting games do it this way as well. I think if Spirits stayed and took over for event mode (I think spirit boards are the most dynamic event mode ever put into the game) from now on this could be a very utilitarian design philosophy. After completing the tutorial you unlock "Regimen Mode" and can now access the specialized version for each character.

 

[Perkilator]

Challenger approaching time.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Here's my list of FGC perks:

• Terry's quick cancels into Specials get shared across the FGC cast members
• Kazuya's omnidirectional tilts (8-tilts) get shared across the FGC cast members
• Kazuya's command grab gets shared across the FGC cast members
• Kazuya's dynamic/cinematic camera is used for all the FGC cast members' throws
• Kazuya's 3 Crouch-Attacks (which would be two extra if everyone got a crouch attack) gets shared across the FGC cast members
• Kazuya's Standing-Attack gets shared across the FGC cast members
• Ryu and Ken's heavy/light attack variants for their tilts get shared across FGC cast members
• Ryu and Ken's long-ranged and short-ranged Final Smash attacks get shared across the FGC cast members
• FGC cast members wouldn't get fatigued using my Super Smash Attack system but would take extra damage from them
• FGC cast members all get a taunt attack like Kazuya. Current taunts get be worked into this like Ryu's Down-Taunt.

Most fighting game characters don't have this many moves in their original games. In Street Fighter V, Ryu has 16 grounded normals/command normals plus Donkey Kick, which is used as his f-smash, but would probably migrate to back-special in your system (he doesn't have any other specials to put there). Your proposed system would give him at minimum 20 and up to 25 normals, if I'm counting right. You would have to invent moves for Ryu for him to fit into this system. You could squeak by without doing so if you didn't have light/heavy versions of diagonal inputs and didn't enforce the crouch/stand attack thing, because that would lower the amount of normals down to 16/17. Terry fares even worse because he comes from a 4-button game as opposed to Street Fighter's 6 buttons.

 

[Blitzwing]

This is what I think Smash 7 (cause Ultimate is technically Smash 6), could be.

• The roster will be shortened to about 40 to 50 characters. Probably more, probably less.
• Newcomers that could possibly happen are a character from Soulcalibur, Shadow the Hedgehog, Waluigi, Astral Chain rep, a Bethesda rep, a character from Mortal Kombat, Master Chief, Robotnik, King Boo, Rayman, Waddle Dee, Crash, Ryu Hayabusa, Zero and more could be playable. While I am biased towards some of these choices, another reason I picked them was because they are characters on the top of fans lists or just representation. And as much as I hate to say it, there will be a Xenoblade character. I think Smash 7 will focus more on characters from other than Japan, as most of the characters the fans want are from America, and most of the Japanese characters are already in the game.
• In terms of what characters could retire. I could see Sora being a one time thing. But, that could be an entirely separate list. Though I do feel characters like Ike, Duck Hunt, Palutena, R.O.B. and Lucario might all be retired. Young Link and Pichu will most likely not come back. But, I could also be wrong, but we don't know.
• As for new gameplay, the game will probably overhaul some of the series characters. Like Mario's moveset could be updated.

 

[dream1ng]

The roster will be shortened to about 40 to 50 characters. Probably more, probably less.

que?

I think Smash 7 will focus more on characters from other than Japan, as most of the characters the fans want are from America, and most of the Japanese characters are already in the game.

There will presumably be an increase in western characters, but in part because we currently have so few, so there's little ways to go but up.

That said, there is still a sizeable pool of Japanese characters people want. Perhaps the reason it doesn't seem that way is because so many actually did represented in a supporting way in Ultimate, while the western characters were much less covered, which caused their popularity to endure until the end.

But there's Resident Evil, Monster Hunter, Ryu Hayabusa, Dante, 2B, Sonic characters, Bomberman, Alucard, Chun-Li, Zero, Travis, Tales characters, Arle, SMT, Dark Souls, Phoenix Wright, Kiryu, Crono, Touhou, Level-5 characters, more FF characters, and that Geno fella everyone seems so fond with. And I'm sure I forgot a few there.

In terms of what characters could retire. I could see Sora being a one time thing. But, that could be an entirely separate list. Though I do feel characters like Ike, Duck Hunt, Palutena, R.O.B. and Lucario might all be retired. Young Link and Pichu will most likely not come back. But, I could also be wrong, but we don't know.

Historically clones and newer characters are the most tenuous to return, so I'd start with those, not most of the characters you listed. And obviously not all third-parties will return, but I feel people look at the ones that may have been toughest to land as if there isn't now an existing bridge built.

Sonic was almost a no-go for Brawl and he's the only third-party with a perfect track record since they started.

 

[Quillion]

I feel like the complexity is also a result of sunk cost (not the fallacy); We’ve spent a good amount of time with the older characters, we’ve gotten to know their quirks and those quirks have been grandfathered in as normal; Yoshi and Peach are complex characters, but they were added pretty early on. The DLC characters, however, had to compete for our time to get familiar with them against like 70 other characters and at that point our mains were pretty settled in: Why take the time to learn Steve when you’ve got an ol’ reliable laying around for a good decade?

DLC made this kinda worse; waiting three-to-six months just to get a fighting game character that demands you to reroute decades-old muscle memory and other characters that break a built-up Smash intuition just isn’t fun, although great for variety (again, those more fond of their 64/Melee/Brawl mains can enjoy 30 characters worth of those) and in theoretical sense, but if it’s not intuitive to pick up then it’s a big demand from a character to ask a player to reroute some core fundamentals just to pick up a character you’ve waited half a year for.

I assume 64/Melee/Brawl style characters does refer to a style here; Sora, Aegis, Sepiroth and Byleth are all pretty intuitive to me, and Smash 4 had Greninja and WFT. Cloud too if meters weren’t close-to-a-mainstay for 10% of the cast exclusively. Reversely, I doubt Olimar makes the cut if Snake is the upper limit of complexity.

That's actually a pretty good point. 64 and Melee have their share of comparatively complex characters, and Yoshi and Peach at that time were quite complex.

Still, it's quite telling that even those two characters were simplified in certain respects. Yoshi's originally non-recovering Up-B got a small recovering leap in Brawl, and he regained the ability to jump out of Shield in Smash 4. As mentioned before, Peach got the RNG of her Forward Smash removed, and Ultimate further improved it by tying the three weapons to different stick angles.

Touché with Olimar as well, but even he has seen some simplification since Brawl: harvesting Pikmin is no longer influenced by environment (a minor gimmick later reappropriated to Steve), and he can only have three Pikmin at once (which was likely due to Smash 4's 8-player limitations at the time, but it made him much better designed IMO, and I'm glad the limit was kept for Ultimate). And even still, his Pikmin count has always been conveyed through the Pikmin within the battle itself, not a UI element, so I find it more intuitive in that sense.

You also did name the characters I have the least problem with among the Smash 4-on newcomers. Pythra is Zelda/Sheik done right; Sephiroth, stick sword into wall thing aside, is nice and simple to pick up since his wing mechanic is entirely passive; Byleth I already mentioned; Greninja and WFT are very nice to pick up.

Sora... I'm admittedly mixed on. I know Sakurai noted that he wanted him to be simpler compared to the other DLC newcomers, but I'm still not a big fan of his neutral B, which comes off as yet another case of him having more moves than inputs that suited them a la Hero. His semi-multitude of non-Neutral A jabs also sticks out to me, though admittedly it's more because I wish some more characters would have their Forward Tilts, Neutral Airs, and Forward Airs be reworked into being jabs too (not all, mind).
----
On another note, though, I think people are focusing way too much on me disliking the overcomplicated nature of some of the Smash 4-on newcomers' movesets. Again that's only half my problem.

Half the problem is overcomplicated function, sure, but the other half is the characters' animations being cluttered with references and/or just being really outlandish. Part of the reason why I prefer the 64/Melee style of moveset design is because the normals are generally so basic, and that in itself leads to the specials feeling, well, special. I know someone will mention G&W, but his herky-jerky animation makes it work. Characters like Villager and Mega Man pull out so many things for their attacks that their animations look annoyingly inconsistent to look at; not in terms of animation quality, but because of the sheer number of things in their movesets. Functionally, yes those two characters are easy enough to understand, but I still feel turned off of those characters because of their craziness.

To put this in perspective, I honestly wish Mega Man's normalset was largely basic punches and kicks, or at least the melee weapons from his series. Mega Buster would work much better as a Neutral B. That said, Flame Sword Forward Air, Slash Claw Back Air, Slide Down Tilt, and Top Spin Dash Attack are fine.
----
Really, I'm falling out of love of the Smash series partly because I feel trapped between playing as the 64-Brawl characters whose moveset designs I prefer and the Smash 4-on characters who are too "busy" functionally and/or visually. Sure, I could just stick to the former and ignore the latter, but that just makes playing the game as stale as New Super Mario Bros., 2D Kirby circa Star Allies, and (at least to others; not me) DS/Wii era Zelda.

That's part of the reason I'm hoping for a significant universal or semi-universal addition/alteration to Smash's core gameplay for Ultimate's successor. Not the veteran "revamps" that some faithfulness crowd complainers want, but things like a new move category/universal action or turning several neutral airs into air jabs.

I've brought these up before, but my ideas for some addition to Smash's core gameplay are:

• Giving every character a Shield-B (and before someone says anything, most characters should be able to Shield-B out of airdodge). To prevent turning Shield-Bs into frustrating OOS options, Shield-Bs should be reserved for some kind of "status buff" akin to Inklings' ink refill and most of the V-Triggers in Street Fighter 5.
• Sacrificing either the X or Y button as a jump button for a Super Special/EX Special input, which would be reserved for souped-up versions of existing specials that would expend a meter. To make it more casual-friendly, the Super Special input could throw out regular Specials if the meter isn't filled up enough for one Super.
• Reworking most/several neutral airs into being air jabs, and/or reworking forward tilts into "strong jabs". Admittedly not really a core gameplay addition, but it could freshen up veteran movesets without doing ground-up revamps for the sake of giving them more source material references.

They don't have to do all of the above at once, but making one addition/alteration per next installment would allow the change to be nice and gradual.

IDK, I'm much less concerned about which newcomers are going to get in at this point, and how Ultimate's followup will avoid becoming as stale as early Switch-era Pokémon.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

That's actually a pretty good point. 64 and Melee have their share of comparatively complex characters, and Yoshi and Peach at that time were quite complex.

Still, it's quite telling that even those two characters were simplified in certain respects. Yoshi's originally non-recovering Up-B got a small recovering leap in Brawl, and he regained the ability to jump out of Shield in Smash 4. As mentioned before, Peach got the RNG of her Forward Smash removed, and Ultimate further improved it by tying the three weapons to different stick angles.

Touché with Olimar as well, but even he has seen some simplification since Brawl: harvesting Pikmin is no longer influenced by environment (a minor gimmick later reappropriated to Steve), and he can only have three Pikmin at once (which was likely due to Smash 4's 8-player limitations at the time, but it made him much better designed IMO, and I'm glad the limit was kept for Ultimate). And even still, his Pikmin count has always been conveyed through the Pikmin within the battle itself, not a UI element, so I find it more intuitive in that sense.

You also did name the characters I have the least problem with among the Smash 4-on newcomers. Pythra is Zelda/Sheik done right; Sephiroth, stick sword into wall thing aside, is nice and simple to pick up since his wing mechanic is entirely passive; Byleth I already mentioned; Greninja and WFT are very nice to pick up.

Sora... I'm admittedly mixed on. I know Sakurai noted that he wanted him to be simpler compared to the other DLC newcomers, but I'm still not a big fan of his neutral B, which comes off as yet another case of him having more moves than inputs that suited them a la Hero. His semi-multitude of non-Neutral A jabs also sticks out to me, though admittedly it's more because I wish some more characters would have their Forward Tilts, Neutral Airs, and Forward Airs be reworked into being jabs too (not all, mind).
----
On another note, though, I think people are focusing way too much on me disliking the overcomplicated nature of some of the Smash 4-on newcomers' movesets. Again that's only half my problem.

Half the problem is overcomplicated function, sure, but the other half is the characters' animations being cluttered with references and/or just being really outlandish. Part of the reason why I prefer the 64/Melee style of moveset design is because the normals are generally so basic, and that in itself leads to the specials feeling, well, special. I know someone will mention G&W, but his herky-jerky animation makes it work. Characters like Villager and Mega Man pull out so many things for their attacks that their animations look annoyingly inconsistent to look at; not in terms of animation quality, but because of the sheer number of things in their movesets. Functionally, yes those two characters are easy enough to understand, but I still feel turned off of those characters because of their craziness.

To put this in perspective, I honestly wish Mega Man's normalset was largely basic punches and kicks, or at least the melee weapons from his series. Mega Buster would work much better as a Neutral B. That said, Flame Sword Forward Air, Slash Claw Back Air, Slide Down Tilt, and Top Spin Dash Attack are fine.
----
Really, I'm falling out of love of the Smash series partly because I feel trapped between playing as the 64-Brawl characters whose moveset designs I prefer and the Smash 4-on characters who are too "busy" functionally and/or visually. Sure, I could just stick to the former and ignore the latter, but that just makes playing the game as stale as New Super Mario Bros., 2D Kirby circa Star Allies, and (at least to others; not me) DS/Wii era Zelda.

That's part of the reason I'm hoping for a significant universal or semi-universal addition/alteration to Smash's core gameplay for Ultimate's successor. Not the veteran "revamps" that some faithfulness crowd complainers want, but things like a new move category/universal action or turning several neutral airs into air jabs.

I've brought these up before, but my ideas for some addition to Smash's core gameplay are:

• Giving every character a Shield-B (and before someone says anything, most characters should be able to Shield-B out of airdodge). To prevent turning Shield-Bs into frustrating OOS options, Shield-Bs should be reserved for some kind of "status buff" akin to Inklings' ink refill and most of the V-Triggers in Street Fighter 5.
• Sacrificing either the X or Y button as a jump button for a Super Special/EX Special input, which would be reserved for souped-up versions of existing specials that would expend a meter. To make it more casual-friendly, the Super Special input could throw out regular Specials if the meter isn't filled up enough for one Super.
• Reworking most/several neutral airs into being air jabs, and/or reworking forward tilts into "strong jabs". Admittedly not really a core gameplay addition, but it could freshen up veteran movesets without doing ground-up revamps for the sake of giving them more source material references.

They don't have to do all of the above at once, but making one addition/alteration per next installment would allow the change to be nice and gradual.

IDK, I'm much less concerned about which newcomers are going to get in at this point, and how Ultimate's followup will avoid becoming as stale as early Switch-era Pokémon.

I didn’t bring up Yoshi, Peach, Olimar and some DLC characters as some sort of gotcha, but more as a way to point out that the “Brawl Snake” limit of complexity isn’t purely a split between 64/Melee/Brawl and Smash 4/Ultimate, although movesets tend to lean one way or another. If anything, it’s to express my personal gripe with the seeming shift in moveset style; why would you add the characters that require a fully new approach to playing Smash decades into the series (and with DLC, two years after the base game)?

As for your second point, I didn’t really grasp that from your initial post (where, if anything, you described the other half of the problem being that normals are increasingly more special-like, something I took as a complaint based on the function of the normals more than their animations), but animations are definitely a part of movesets in my opinion. I have to note that Villager and Mega Man are the main perpetrators of it rather than examples indicative of a larger problem. In fact, beyond Villager, Mega Man and Game & Watch, I struggle to think of another character that has the same problem (well, aside from Isabelle for being derived from Villager). Conversely, Inkling manages to avoid the problem by sticking the various weapons in the Specials and Smashes and sticking to their main Splattershot and general athelticism for their normals. I don’t think Mega Man aged well either, but I don’t see how that specific sort of visual clashing moveset design is a running theme throughout Smash 4 and Ultimate when it’s two/three characters from Smash 4 onwards and the moveset philosophy itself was coined in Melee with Game & Watch. (Albeit executed better)

 

[Quillion]

I didn’t bring up Yoshi, Peach, Olimar and some DLC characters as some sort of gotcha, but more as a way to point out that the “Brawl Snake” limit of complexity isn’t purely a split between 64/Melee/Brawl and Smash 4/Ultimate, although movesets tend to lean one way or another. If anything, it’s to express my personal gripe with the seeming shift in moveset style; why would you add the characters that require a fully new approach to playing Smash decades into the series (and with DLC, two years after the base game)?

Admittedly, I know that the "rulebreaking" characters of Smash 4-on are an effort to add more variety to the game, but yeah, a good portion of those characters just take it way too far.

As for your second point, I didn’t really grasp that from your initial post (where, if anything, you described the other half of the problem being that normals are increasingly more special-like, something I took as a complaint based on the function of the normals more than their animations), but animations are definitely a part of movesets in my opinion. I have to note that Villager and Mega Man are the main perpetrators of it rather than examples indicative of a larger problem. In fact, beyond Villager, Mega Man and Game & Watch, I struggle to think of another character that has the same problem (well, aside from Isabelle for being derived from Villager). Conversely, Inkling manages to avoid the problem by sticking the various weapons in the Specials and Smashes and sticking to their main Splattershot and general athelticism for their normals. I don’t think Mega Man aged well either, but I don’t see how that specific sort of visual clashing moveset design is a running theme throughout Smash 4 and Ultimate when it’s two/three characters from Smash 4 onwards and the moveset philosophy itself was coined in Melee with Game & Watch. (Albeit executed better)

I admittedly didn't articulate it well at first. But I had to put in some thought as to why I keep returning to the 64/Melee and sometimes Brawl newcomers and very rarely play most of the Smash 4-on newcomers.

It's definitely more of an "either/or" and rarely an "and" gripe for me. There are characters whose animations are too chaotic like Villager, there are characters whose move functions are unintuitive for the engine like Min Min, and there are characters who have both chaotic animations and unintuitive movesets like Mega Man.

All of that said, I probably wouldn't mind more canonical referential changes for the veterans as long as they tie in to the 64/Melee standard of "basic melee for normals, wacky iconic abilities for specials." In contrast to the people who want a more referential Mario moveset, I like how he takes reference from his Mario 64-exclusive melee combat for his normals. Still wish Down B was the Tornado again, though. And yeah, G&W executes the "busy" animations better than some of the Smash 4-on characters because it still holds to the 64/Melee standard.

 

[Chuderz]

Most fighting game characters don't have this many moves in their original games. In Street Fighter V, Ryu has 16 grounded normals/command normals plus Donkey Kick, which is used as his f-smash, but would probably migrate to back-special in your system (he doesn't have any other specials to put there). Your proposed system would give him at minimum 20 and up to 25 normals, if I'm counting right. You would have to invent moves for Ryu for him to fit into this system. You could squeak by without doing so if you didn't have light/heavy versions of diagonal inputs and didn't enforce the crouch/stand attack thing, because that would lower the amount of normals down to 16/17. Terry fares even worse because he comes from a 4-button game as opposed to Street Fighter's 6 buttons.

Couldn't we pull from multiple games though?

There are even a lot of similarities and established work that can be expanded upon. I'll use Kazuya's Up-Tilt as an example. First and foremost all of Kazuya's Double-Tapped tilt inputs would be his "strong" variations and this could similarly work as a design philosophy around the rest. Instead of Double-Tap inputting for the Tilts you'd simply hold them which I think would be much easier for players. In some cases you'll want to input a single quick tap though like Ryu/Ken currently work because the moves will be split between 2 unique moves instead of them simply being finisher to the initial input as is currently the case with Kazuya's Double-Tap inputs.

So with all of that considered let's look at Terry's Up-Tilt which is extremely similar to Kazuya's so why not just give Terry an extra punch as well for his uppercut Up-Tilt for his strong (held input) variation? Kazuya's Dash-Attack, Backward-Upward-Diagonal-Tilt, and Forward-Air are all basically the same pose as an attack with different properties. This design philosophy could suit the purpose of filling out all these moves with the aforementioned 1 pose account for 3 different ones. Similarly Kazuya's Reflect-Kick and the Second tap of his Forward-Downward-Diagonal-Tilt share a pose as well as his Command-Input-Special share the same spinning stuff he does for the full execution of his Forward-Upward-Diagonal-Tilt. Kazuya's standing attack also utilizes the animations from his Command-Input-Jab and his Command-Input-Special making his entire Command-Input-Special entirely recycled from elsewhere in his kit or the other way around depending on how you want to look at it.

Terry has a lot of this going on too. His Up-Throw is the same as his Up-Tilt in its animation and his spotdodge-attack as I pointed out earlier. His Back-Throw and Forward Throw are also the same.

Finally as far as Fighting Game Characters currently in the game and the ones with prospects towards joining in the future (Chun-Li, Akira, to a much lesser extent Scorpion) are mainly utilizing just punches and kicks so a lot of their kit is really basic in overall aesthetics. Ryu/Ken and Terry's Down-Air plus Kazuya's Neutral-Air are the same poses and all of them share the same pose for their Up-Smash being a heavy Uppercut swing. All of their Back-Airs are the same with the only difference being Kazuya doesn't spin for his Back-Air Kick.

A lot of this stuff just depends on how you want to organize the arsenal too. Ryu's light Down-Tilt could be his Crouch-Attack and his strong Down-Tilt could be his new Default (initial tap) Down-Tilt with his Down-Smash being reused as his strong Down-Tilt variation with an added trip effect like some of the moves in Kazuya's kick do. This exact build could be retooled for Terry in the same position except for his reused Down-Smash for the strong variant would just be a true combo extension from the first tilt instead of a trip.

The way I see FGC is that their normal moves are just a massive arsenal of them punching and kicking around with the functionality of the performance depending entirely on the skill and execution of the player. In my system their specials, throws, Super Smash Attacks and Final Smash attacks are what would set them vastly apart from each other.

 

[Wonder Smash]

• Newcomers that could possibly happen are a character from Soulcalibur, Shadow the Hedgehog, Waluigi, Astral Chain rep, a Bethesda rep, a character from Mortal Kombat, Master Chief, Robotnik, King Boo, Rayman, Waddle Dee, Crash, Ryu Hayabusa, Zero and more could be playable. While I am biased towards some of these choices, another reason I picked them was because they are characters on the top of fans lists or just representation. And as much as I hate to say it, there will be a Xenoblade character. I think Smash 7 will focus more on characters from other than Japan, as most of the characters the fans want are from America, and most of the Japanese characters are already in the game.

That's if a Halo game ever comes to the Nintendo consoles by that point.

As for a Bethesda character, I think Doom Slayer is right at the top.

Then there's also the possibility of an ASW (Arc System Works) character. Personally, I want Billy and Jimmy Lee.

• In terms of what characters could retire. I could see Sora being a one time thing. But, that could be an entirely separate list. Though I do feel characters like Ike, Duck Hunt, Palutena, R.O.B. and Lucario might all be retired. Young Link and Pichu will most likely not come back. But, I could also be wrong, but we don't know.

I can assure you that Duck Hunt is here to stay. A classic NES retro like that? That's not going anywhere.

And I'm not sure about everybody else but I do feel that Sora has a good chance at returning.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I just came by an article that said that aerial Smash attacks where considered for Ultimate, but scrapped due to being too complicated for new players.

Am pretty sure they will implement them eventually, probably next game even. Would be pretty dope honestly.

 

[Quillion]

IMO, if they scrap the A-stick Smash motion entirely, I can see aerial Smash attacks being implemented. Honestly, I've grown to dislike A-stick Smash over time, and I love that the Smash Crusade fangame lets you turn that crap off.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

They would never do this, but it is interesting to imagine a Smash game filled with classic/complex versions of each character; a Mario that played like someone from the 4/Ultimate era facing off against a Steve circa Melee.

 

[Quillion]

They would never do this, but it is interesting to imagine a Smash game filled with classic/complex versions of each character; a Mario that played like someone from the 4/Ultimate era facing off against a Steve circa Melee.

Hey, as long as they realize not every character has the source material to have a Smash 4-on newcomer standard mode and give it to the characters on a case by case basis, it could work. The Smash Crusade fangame does that as well.

 

[dream1ng]

Hey, as long as they realize not every character has the source material to have a Smash 4-on newcomer standard mode and give it to the characters on a case by case basis, it could work. The Smash Crusade fangame does that as well.

Honestly most characters in theory have enough source material to scale between simple or complex implementation. Many of the simpler characters are those who were added early on, who are major players if not lead characters in their series, which means they have many games on which to draw material.

If you want to restrict it to source material, then yes, not every character will fit as easily as others, but Sakurai and his team are pretty deft at being able to mine new angles for characters, and can even find complexity in characters with short resumes, like Ice Climbers, Min Min, Shulk, etc.

 

[RileyXY1]

IMO, if they scrap the A-stick Smash motion entirely, I can see aerial Smash attacks being implemented. Honestly, I've grown to dislike A-stick Smash over time, and I love that the Smash Crusade fangame lets you turn that crap off.

Also by virtue of the light/strong separation NASB does have aerial Smash attacks, technically.

 

[Chuderz]

I just came by an article that said that aerial Smash attacks where considered for Ultimate, but scrapped due to being too complicated for new players.

Am pretty sure they will implement them eventually, probably next game even. Would be pretty dope honestly.

Yeah it was pretty crazy. I'd envisioned the idea back around Ultimate's early release and thought it was too out there of an idea to consider seriously but lo and behold Sakurai himself had the exact same thought! I think he said it was too complicated from a developmental standpoint as opposed to a playstyle one though. They require very different animations that make sense both in the air and descending along with sometimes having different (smaller) hitboxes and/or properties to make up for the ground not being a factor in the attack and the game having more attacks to process would be its own drain.

IMO, if they scrap the A-stick Smash motion entirely, I can see aerial Smash attacks being implemented. Honestly, I've grown to dislike A-stick Smash over time, and I love that the Smash Crusade fangame lets you turn that crap off.

I don't see how A-stick Smash motions (I presume that means the simultaneous Direction + Jab input) are getting in the way of future implementation of aerial smash attacks. I think it's the opposite actually with the main culprit for the roadblock to aerial-smash attacks being that aerials being able to be performed with the directional-jab inputs are what's in the way. Normal aerial-attacks would be performed with your right-stick and aerial smash-attacks would take over for the midair simultaneous directional-jab inputs and this would be replacing an in-game redundancy with something unique that adds depth.

 

[RileyXY1]

That's if a Halo game ever comes to the Nintendo consoles by that point.

As for a Bethesda character, I think Doom Slayer is right at the top.

I actually believe that the top choice for a Bethesda rep is the Dragonborn from Skyrim, not Doom Slayer.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I actually believe that the top choice for a Bethesda rep is the Dragonborn from Skyrim, not Doom Slayer.

You can think he's at the top but definitely not higher than Doom Slayer.