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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

osby

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Suggestions like that should be kept far away from Smash.
You know, saying that something should happen without clarifying why or explaining your opinion doesn't make a terribly convincing argument. That's regardless of your view on the subject or the discussion at hand, btw.

Also, as long as it's done in a respectful manner and is reasonably related to Smash, I don't see why any kind of suggestion should be "kept away" from the game. It's not like people talking influences the game at all for now, now that DLC support has ended. The only downside I can think of is that it personally bothers you, which is unfortunate but there's not much anyone can do about it.
 

DarthEnderX

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Wonder Smash

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You know, saying that something should happen without clarifying why or explaining your opinion doesn't make a terribly convincing argument. That's regardless of your view on the subject or the discussion at hand, btw.
If it's obvious why it should be kept away, then it shouldn't have to be explained.

Also, as long as it's done in a respectful manner and is reasonably related to Smash, I don't see why any kind of suggestion should be "kept away" from the game. It's not like people talking influences the game at all for now, now that DLC support has ended. The only downside I can think of is that it personally bothers you, which is unfortunate but there's not much anyone can do about it.
What makes you think I'm the only one that's going to be bothered by it? I'm pretty sure nobody wants Smash or discussions about it to be tainted by real life subjects. Let's just stay focused on our favorite video game characters being in Smash and not on "representing" minorities or something. Smash is doing just fine without it and nobody is complaining.
 
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osby

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If it's obvious why it should be kept away, then it shouldn't have to be explained.
It's not obvious to me. Why should people refrain from asking characters they identify with?

It's probably not going to result in much, as support for specific characters yields better results, but unless you explain, I'm going to think there's simply not a good case against it.

What makes you think I'm the only one that's going to be bothered by it? I'm pretty sure nobody wants Smash or discussions about it to be tainted by real life issues like that.
We talk about real-life issues all the time in Smash speculation. There was a time when we extensively talked about an earthquake in Japan because it could've possibly affected Smash. Smash isn't developed in a vacuum, it's made by people who live in the real world and are affected by it.

Let's just stay focused on getting our favorite video game characters in Smash and not stay focus on pleasing minorities or something. Smash is doing just fine without it.
Let me put it this way:

I would like Zagreus from Hades in Smash. I didn't talk about him much in this thread but he's one of my favorite video game protagonists. He's well-written, has a great moveset potential, comes from an amazing game in general, and just happens to be queer; all of which are among the reasons I enjoy him as a character.

So, according to you, I should focus on him (because he is one of my favorite video game characters) but I also shouldn't because Smash shouldn't focus on minorities so, me asking for a character who is queer like me is wrong. I see a contradiction here. Why shouldn't Smash please me, aka a paying customer? Sure, there are millions of others like me but that doesn't mean I don't get an individual voice in the overall fandom.

Now, I can only speak for myself, I'm not a spokesperson for a group. But I imagine my reasoning can apply to others, as well. Smash should please minorities because they can also be Smash fans (in case you don't know).
 

slrigeigdew

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It's convenient that I came in this thread at a time when we're discussing diversity in Smash when I just finished reading a ResetERA thread about this very same topic. As a random black guy online that loves smash and video games as a whole, I have my own opinions on this topic that don't 100% align with either side.

First off, I agree that including characters for the sake of checking a diversity box is pretty wack. The vast majority of my mains and most wanted wouldn't even count as a "diversity pick" in the eyes of most people (The exceptions being Ganondorf for the former and Frisk for the latter). If Smash 6 doesn't add a new "female, gay, poc, non-binary" character, I'll still happily play the game so long as the gameplay and newcomers are fun.

That being said, when it comes to black representation in Smash, in particular, I find myself agreeing with this tweet (which came from one of the people that sparked this discussion.)



Representation is an industry wide problem, but lets not pretend that Nintendo isn't sitting on a treasure trove of black characters that should be in Smash even by their own merits. Characters that come to mind are Doc Louis, Mr. Sandman, Urbosa, Twintelle, and Rodin* just to name a few. And that's not even going into characters that aren't explicitly black but could be interpreted that way like Tetra, Elma and Claude.
(*I believe Nintendo owns the Bayo series now, correct me if I'm wrong)

All in all, to answer the original question

Another question: Should Smash 6 focus less on representation based on relevance, fan demand and franchise representation and focus more on real life representation such as race, sexuality, genders? for example characters being picked based on certain criteria like being female, gay, poc, non-binary?
why-not-both-why-not.gif
 
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It's convenient that I came in this thread at a time when we're discussing diversity in Smash when I just finished reading a ResetERA thread about this very same topic. As a random black guy online that loves smash and video games as a whole, I have my own opinions on this topic that don't 100% align with either side.

First off, I agree that including characters for the sake of checking a diversity box is pretty wack. The vast majority of my mains and most wanted wouldn't even count as a "diversity pick" in the eyes of most people (The exceptions being Ganondorf for the former and Frisk for the latter). If Smash 6 doesn't add a new "female, gay, poc, non-binary" character, I'll still happily play the game so long as the gameplay and newcomers are fun.

That being said, when it comes to black representation in Smash, in particular, I find myself agreeing with this tweet (which came from one of the people that sparked this discussion.)



Representation is an industry wide problem, but lets not pretend that Nintendo isn't sitting on a treasure trove of black characters that should be in Smash even by their own merits. Characters that come to mind are Doc Louis, Mr. Sandman, Urbosa, Twintelle, and Rodin* just to name a few. And that's not even going into characters that aren't explicitly black but could be interpreted that way like Tetra, Elma and Claude.
(*I believe Nintendo owns the Bayo series now, correct me if I'm wrong)

All in all, to answer the original question


View attachment 337472
If we Included black Character in Smash, it could be Twintelle (But her bum is bigger).
And possibly Rodin as 3rd Party guy!
 

Wonder Smash

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It's not obvious to me. Why should people refrain from asking characters they identify with?

It's probably not going to result in much, as support for specific characters yields better results, but unless you explain, I'm going to think there's simply not a good case against it.
It's definitely obvious to you. Let's not try to pretend.

We talk about real-life issues all the time in Smash speculation. There was a time when we extensively talked about an earthquake in Japan because it could've possibly affected Smash. Smash isn't developed in a vacuum, it's made by people who live in the real world and are affected by it.
That's clearly not the same thing. This is about real life subjects effecting character choices, not a tragic event. That's a rather poor and tasteless comparison.

I would like Zagreus from Hades in Smash. I didn't talk about him much in this thread but he's one of my favorite video game protagonists. He's well-written, has a great moveset potential, comes from an amazing game in general, and just happens to be queer; all of which are among the reasons I enjoy him as a character.

So, according to you, I should focus on him (because he is one of my favorite video game characters) but I also shouldn't because Smash shouldn't focus on minorities so, me asking for a character who is queer like me is wrong. I see a contradiction here. Why shouldn't Smash please me, aka a paying customer? Sure, there are millions of others like me but that doesn't mean I don't get an individual voice in the overall fandom.

Now, I can only speak for myself, I'm not a spokesperson for a group. But I imagine my reasoning can apply to others, as well. Smash should please minorities because they can also be Smash fans (in case you don't know).
There's no contradiction. You didn't exactly go into detail as to why you actually want him in Smash. You just simply said he's your favorite character but that's not the issue.

Liking the character because all of those things you just mentioned is one thing and that's fine. Wanting him in Smash for some sort of representation is another and that's the main problem. Sub-Zero is a popular MK character that people want in Smash. However, he also happens to be a Chinese character (which Smash doesn't have much of) and I never once heard someone say that Sub-Zero should get in because it needs more Chinese characters.

Also, what makes you think minorities aren't Smash fans already? So far, it has never been something that came up or even brought attention to it by minorities. Heck, they may already like Smash and don't care about it. So Smash discussions shouldn't involve it.
 
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osby

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Also, what makes you think minorities aren't Smash fans already? So far, it has never been something that came up or even brought attention to it by minorities. Heck, they may already like Smash and don't care about it. So Smash discussions shouldn't prove it.
Hate to break it to you but:

a character who is queer like me
As a random black guy online that loves smash and video games as a whole,
 

Nabbitfan730

Smash Ace
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Dec 15, 2020
Messages
568
Representation is an industry wide problem, but lets not pretend that Nintendo isn't sitting on a treasure trove of black characters that should be in Smash even by their own merits. Characters that come to mind are Doc Louis, Mr. Sandman, Urbosa, Twintelle, and Rodin* just to name a few. And that's not even going into characters that aren't explicitly black but could be interpreted that way like Tetra, Elma and Claude.
(*I believe Nintendo owns the Bayo series now, correct me if I'm wrong)

All in all, to answer the original question


View attachment 337472
Honestly that part is more a 1st Party problem I've stated before especially a Zelda one. The series hasn't gotten a single addition since Brawl and that was clone. Bet if they were all popular 3rd party, most of them would've been added


Also no offense but I think Nabil a bit shallow in his thinking. I remember him saying he rather get a new director other than Sakurai just because of diversity which a bit silly.
 

Wonder Smash

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Messages
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I'm just going to pretend I didn't read that tweet because it's all sorts of craziness that don't need to be brought to Smash.

Hate to break it to you but:
Even though you're already a Smash fan (see?), what is your reason for wanting Zagreus? Explain.
 
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Sucumbio

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I personally welcome discussion over character inclusion and how racial or minority issues have affected character design and therefore their smash inclusion worthiness. I also understand the want for discussion to be less politically charged. But being this is about the next game and we have so many potential newcomers it's almost impossible to not at least acknowledge that a character's race gender sexuality etc may be a determining factor and thus thoughts on whether this should be the case or what have you.
 

ZelDan

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There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting more diversity in Smash, whether it be in terms of gamey stuff (genre diversity, wanting more western characters, wanting an indie character fully playable, etc.) or real-life diversity (more racial minorities, more female characters, more LGBTQ representation, etc). As long as people aren't aggressive or volatile about wanting whatever characters they want, they should be able to want whatever characters they want for whatever goddamn reason they want.

Now, there could maybe be a discussion about what black characters or LGBQT characters could have an actual shot of making it into Smash, since there is admittedly a more narrow selection for both types of characters, but to act like wanting more of these kind of characters is wrong in the first place or pandering is some supreme BS.
 
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Dan Quixote

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Again tho, you people are caring too much about the fictional characters. Energy like this should go to handing real black or LGBT people in real life massive stacks of cash for working on big AAA games.
 
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WeirdChillFever

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Again tho, you people are caring too much about the fictional characters. Energy like this should go to handing real black or LGBT people in real life massive stacks of cash for working on big AAA games.
We‘re on a Smash Bros. forum, I don’t think that any of us is spending their energy well by any stretch of the imagination. By which I mean that I don’t think anyone here is pretending talking about this subject is a substitute for activism, we’re still just talking about the Smash Bros roster in this thread. Unrelated to your post, but it’s why I don’t get the comments about this discussion being political. It’s still very low-brow speculation what we’re doing with this, even if it gets a tinge of real life sprinkled in with this particular subject.
 
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Wonder Smash

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We‘re on a Smash Bros. forum, I don’t think that any of us is spending their energy well by any stretch of the imagination. By which I mean that I don’t think anyone here is pretending talking about this subject is a substitute for activism, we’re still just talking about the Smash Bros roster in this thread. Unrelated to your post, but it’s why I don’t get the comments about this discussion being political. It’s still very low-brow speculation what we’re doing with this, even if it gets a tinge of real life sprinkled in with this particular subject.
Well, that's why the real life stuff should be kept out of it. After all, it started with somebody asking if it should be focused more on that than relevance, fan demand and franchise representation. I thought any Smash fan would be against that.
 
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Gengar84

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Dec 9, 2009
Messages
5,501
I’m totally fine with more diverse representation in Smash. The only thing is you’ll probably have to also be fine with getting more secondary characters rather than just the main protagonist, which I’m also fine with. Characters like Barrett, Deejay, TJ Combo, or others could be a lot of fun. I still don’t know whether Xehanort counts. He’s definitely dark skinned but likely not actually African.
 

Dan Quixote

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We‘re on a Smash Bros. forum, I don’t think that any of us is spending their energy well by any stretch of the imagination. By which I mean that I don’t think anyone here is pretending talking about this subject is a substitute for activism, we’re still just talking about the Smash Bros roster in this thread. Unrelated to your post, but it’s why I don’t get the comments about this discussion being political. It’s still very low-brow speculation what we’re doing with this, even if it gets a tinge of real life sprinkled in with this particular subject.
Okay that I can definitely agree with. People cry "Politics!" at every little thing now, and it's becoming hella irritating. Not only is this discussion just about some facts of life and not really political, but also people probably should want to talk about politics every now and then cuz it's super important to our daily lives? Do not get the sudden paralyzing fear of politics on the net these days.
 

Swamp Sensei

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So, here's my idea for a project.

Throughout Ultimate's speculation cycle, I've constantly seen takes on past games that are wrong. Characters frequently have their popularity overstated and understated. Takes like, "Palutena wasn't a popular request for Smash 4," or "Lucario wasn't a popular request for Brawl," are becoming more common. Revisionism is constantly being used to create narratives.

I want to create a thread that will combat that and have site veterans focus on clearing misconceptions about character popularity and how characters were received when they were revealed. Naturally this could also lead to characters who were never included such as Geno and Krystal but I think we should focus on the roster of characters we have first.

I propose that we tackle to roster of each game bit by bit and try to get something like this for each character.

For example.

:ultinkling:

Demand for the Character: Example Text
Views on Character's Likelihood: Example Text
Reception after Confirmation: Example Text

For characters that appeared in more than one Smash game (before Ultimate), we can even talk about how their return in future games was perceived. Maybe something like this.


:ultfalco:

Demand for the Character: Example Text
Views on Character's Likelihood: Example Text
Reception after Confirmation: Example Text
Chances for Brawl: Example Text
Chances for Smash 4: Example Text
Chances for Ultimate (Pre-Everyone is Here):Example Text

I want to make this as accurate as possible. I don't want to accidentally commit revisionism myself. That's why I want this to be a community thing, preferably with people who were there at the time. It's a problem that's been brought up constantly, so I feel we should do something to fix it together.

What do you say? Would anyone be interested in joining this project?
 
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Ivander

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There's nothing wrong with representation to me. I just think that besides popularity, characters should be prioritised by what they offer and what new things they can bring gameplay-wise, with representation being a bonus, not a priority.

I don't want Elma because she can be considered a PoC. I want her because I liked her, I think she's a good character and she would be cool in Smash, she has dual swords, dual guns and a giant Mech Robot, and she would bring a Xenoblade X stage like Noctilum, Oblivia or Sylvalum and Xenoblade X music with her. Her being considered a PoC would be a bonus.
 
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Calamitas

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Even if they don't own it and only distributed it, they'd still need to be talked to anyway.

Just ask Chuggaconroy, who's having issues with them copyright striking his second LP of EarthBound because Sony published its soundtrack.

I'm never going to say Sony owns its music because obviously they don't, but that's not stopping them from being assholes.

Sony has so much damn pride and ego that they think they own everything that touches them.


Being fair, they didn't need a lot of tracks for XC2; Shulk and Fiora didn't come with a lot of tracks either despite having far more planning behind their addition.

But maybe the issue is getting enough tracks? I don't think Nintendo and Sakurai want another pre-DLC FF7 situation.
Doesn't seem like Sony was much of an issue with getting Earthbound music into Smash, then.

And honestly, I can see there being plenty of reasons for as to why X got pretty much nothing in Smash (not that I like any of these potential reasons). The music I'd consider among the least of these, if the game's treatment or lack thereof in general is any indication.

Okay that I can definitely agree with. People cry "Politics!" at every little thing now, and it's becoming hella irritating. Not only is this discussion just about some facts of life and not really political, but also people probably should want to talk about politics every now and then cuz it's super important to our daily lives? Do not get the sudden paralyzing fear of politics on the net these days.
Of course they yell about politics all the time. After all, there's only two genders: Male and political. Just as there are only two sexualities, straight and political. Or the two ethnicities, white and political. :4pacman:
 
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Yamat08

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PSASBR actually had a good number of retro and legacy characters.

People just ignore them because they weren't third parties.
And this is arguably another reason why PSASBR failed. Sony actually does have a pretty hefty roster of first-party characters. The problem is, they're rarely at the forefront of gaming, and most of them aren't even at the forefront of the Playstation brand, which is why a game focused around them was probably doomed from the start (and likely why the game had to rely so much on third-party inclusions, which is also something they mostly fumbled on). I mean, if Sony's IPs were near as iconic as Nintendo's, there'd be forums upon forums of people clamoring for Jumping Flash to be included in PS All-Stars. As an aside, I'm particularly disappointed in the way All-Stars completed shafted ALL of its JRPG series (though a Legend of Dragoon character was planned), and looking back on it, that may've been an early sign of the utter contempt Sony now seems to have for Japan in general.

Ngl I legit do want to see Morshu in smash it’s probably gonna be one of the craziest reveal and pick out there due to the fact nintendo do want to erase that piece of their history and yet CD-i games would be a part of their biggest video game celebration
However if Nintendo loved to reference Virtual boy in many of their games then what’s stopping them from referencing the CD-i games?
Being serious though, unlike the Virtual Boy, the CD-i was never a Nintendo system. While it does have its roots in being an abandoned attempt at a SegaCD and TurboCD competitor, the system itself is all Phillips, who just happened to luck out with being able to keep the licenses to Nintendo's most recognizeable IPs. So yeah, as hilarious as it might be, I don't think it's a stretch to say that Morshu, Harkinian, Russian Toon Link, and others are never going to get into Smash.

On this topic, Honestly the best way to support persecuted groups like black people or LGBT people isn't even to give them characters in the video games like y'all are discussing, though you should still do that since it makes people feel nice. The real solution is to HIRE those people in REAL LIFE so that they get paid and actually have their lives made easier. Hire black programmers and pay them money! Hire Hispanic soundtrack composers and pay them money! Hire trans voice actors and pay them money! Quickest and easiest way to elevate them in the industry.

Plus there'll probably be some sort of trickle down effect that'll end up including more of these groups as video game characters if they entrench themselves in the industry anyway...
Correction: hire black programmers, Hispanic composers, and trans actors if they're good. The problem with this whole diversity nonsense is that a lot of companies end up propping up people who are actually subpar at the job compared to their peers and were clearly ONLY hired for their skin color, sex, sexuality, or what have you. Now if somebody just happens to be part of a minority class, AND they're genuinely talented, then yes, by all means, hire them. However, despite what some shrieking harpies who graduated with a gender studies major seem to think, I don't think there's this pandemic of employers throwing resumes into the trash just because the applicant didn't appear Caucasian (in fact, that sort of blatant prejudice IS widely frowned upon and has been for the past several decades now). The issue of "not enough POC in this particular industry" is a matter of probability, more than anything. The United States is a majority white country, so naturally, it's going to have a lot of white people employed in most companies (in contrast, African Americans make up roughly 14% of the total population, and I'd say that's already reflected well enough in employment if not better). Likewise, Japan is STILL a mostly homogenous country, but I sure as hell don't see people whining about too many Japanese people being employed at Nintendo of Japan.

Well the reverse of that is tokenism. I don't think it's inherently wrong to want Smash to operate as a meritocracy.
The sad thing is that the sort of people who DEMAND "representation" also seem to want blatant tokenism (and often features it in their own creative works)..... then they'll go on to forget about it and revise history yet again, or they'll whine that the representation wasn't good enough. There is no pleasing those sorts of people, and it's best to not even try (to add insult to injury, they typically won't even show up to support whatever it was they demanded to change after said change has been made).

Hate to break it to you but:
who is queer like me
As a random black guy
First of all, fantastic job quoting YOURSELF to try and make your point. Second of all, while I'm sure it's a nice bonus to have some characters you could relate to (through physical traits or otherwise), I don't think the lack of such characters has been turning you off from playing games entirely, has it? See, the argument some of the identity-obsessed lunatics like to make is that there aren't enough black people playing video games. Supposedly, gaming's not welcoming and inclusive enough due to a lack of black characters or some such bullcrap. I'm a straight white dude, and guess what? I was just fine growing up on games that let me play as a female chimpanzee with a ponytail, a blue (and apparently female) "cobrasaurus", a female half-human half-Esper, and others. I sure as hell never turned off the system and walked away just because I realized I was playing as a girl. If anything, those were among my favorite characters that I've just listed. If the game's fun, you can enjoy playing it and even get immersed in it regardless of who or what the character you're operating with on the screen is.

Okay that I can definitely agree with. People cry "Politics!" at every little thing now, and it's becoming hella irritating. Not only is this discussion just about some facts of life and not really political, but also people probably should want to talk about politics every now and then cuz it's super important to our daily lives? Do not get the sudden paralyzing fear of politics on the net these days.
Maybe the reason there's such an adversity against "Politics!" is because some of us have seen the damage that people like Anita Sarkeesian can do to a hobby. I mean, I don't think there's a problem with politics so long as discussions can remain civil. The problem is when people unironically try to make politics be the center of everything. You drink milk? Well, you must be a white supremacist, then (I'm sadly not joking, that was an actual topic that has come up). And so, so many entertainers over the past half decade have been willing to tank their careers and their reputations for thinking they got to pull one over on the last president (and failing miserably at it).
 
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Wonder Smash

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Messages
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There's nothing wrong with representation to me. I just think that besides popularity, characters should be prioritised by what they offer and what new things they can bring gameplay-wise, with representation being a bonus, not a priority.

I don't want Elma because she can be considered a PoC. I want her because I liked her, I think she's a good character and she would be cool in Smash, she has dual swords, dual guns and a giant Mech Robot, and she would bring a Xenoblade X stage like Noctilum, Oblivia or Sylvalum and Xenoblade X music with her. Her being considered a PoC would be a bonus.
That kind of reason is much more acceptable. It's okay if a character just happens to be that way and somebody like them for it. It just shouldn't be used as the reason for why they should be in Smash. Characters shouldn't be decided based on things like that. Legacy, popularity, fan demand, unique gameplay, all of that should be much more important.
 
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TCT~Phantom

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There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting more diversity in Smash, whether it be in terms of gamey stuff (genre diversity, wanting more western characters, wanting an indie character fully playable, etc.) or real-life diversity (more racial minorities, more female characters, more LGBTQ representation, etc). As long as people aren't aggressive or volatile about wanting whatever characters they want, they should be able to want whatever characters they want for whatever goddamn reason they want.

Now, there could maybe be a discussion about what black characters or LGBQT characters could have an actual shot of making it into Smash, since there is admittedly a more narrow selection for both types of characters, but to act like wanting more of these kind of characters is wrong in the first place or pandering is some supreme BS.
This is pretty similar to my main train of thought.

Do I think that there are solid choices for POC or LGBTQ+ choices for smash representation? Sure. Some picks I would love that would fit would be Zagreus and Madeline for instance. I love Hades and Celeste a ton, and seeing them in smash would be a treat.

Do I think that we will get a character chosen primarily for their race or orientation? I don’t think so, at least not right now. Keep in mind how bad Smash’s roster of female characters was until Smash 4. If we do get a pic like this, it will be for other factors as well and not just due to race or orientation, at least for the next game. I think this is an important discussion to have, but I think that we won’t really see the fruit of it for a while sadly, perhaps even past the next smash.
So, here's my idea for a project.

Throughout Ultimate's speculation cycle, I've constantly seen takes on past games that are wrong. Characters frequently have their popularity overstated and understated. Takes like, "Palutena wasn't a popular request for Smash 4," or "Lucario wasn't a popular request for Brawl," are becoming more common. Revisionism is constantly being used to create narratives.

I want to create a thread that will combat that and have site veterans focus on clearing misconceptions about character popularity and how characters were received when they were revealed. Naturally this could also lead to characters who were never included such as Geno and Krystal but I think we should focus on the roster of characters we have first.

I propose that we tackle to roster of each game bit by bit and try to get something like this for each character.

For example.

:ultinkling:

Demand for the Character: Example Text
Views on Character's Likelihood: Example Text
Reception after Confirmation: Example Text

For characters that appeared in more than one Smash game (before Ultimate), we can even talk about how their return in future games was perceived. Maybe something like this.


:ultfalco:

Demand for the Character: Example Text
Views on Character's Likelihood: Example Text
Reception after Confirmation: Example Text
Chances for Brawl: Example Text
Chances for Smash 4: Example Text
Chances for Ultimate (Pre-Everyone is Here):Example Text

I want to make this as accurate as possible. I don't want to accidentally commit revisionism myself. That's why I want this to be a community thing, preferably with people who were there at the time. It's a problem that's been brought up constantly, so I feel we should do something to fix it together.

What do you say? Would anyone be interested in joining this project?
I ran RTC for ultimate, and I would love to try to help out with this project. While RTC is not a perfect barometer or even a representative sample sometimes, it can help provide a lot of info on changes in speculation and what not. Outside of Ult I also was involved in Sm4sh speculation so I can help out.
 

slrigeigdew

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Honestly that part is more a 1st Party problem I've stated before especially a Zelda one. The series hasn't gotten a single addition since Brawl and that was clone. Bet if they were all popular 3rd party, most of them would've been added


Also no offense but I think Nabil a bit shallow in his thinking. I remember him saying he rather get a new director other than Sakurai just because of diversity which a bit silly.
Both of your points are valid. The characters I listed were from series that either have plenty of reps or unlikely to get a second rep. I think Twintelle was the only one that had a serious shot since she was technically a protagonist (everyone in ARMS is) and her popularity was the only one to rival Min Min's. Even so, I'm glad Min Min got in because she's also a WOC that deserved to be in Smash on her own merits.

Andyeah like I said, I don't 100% agree with Nabil and the ResetERA crowd on this issue. I still think gameplay should be king, especially when it comes to Smash. The lack of representation is an important issue but it's not the hill for Smash or Sakurai to die on.

Maybe the reason there's such an adversity against "Politics!" is because some of us have seen the damage that people like Anita Sarkeesian can do to a hobby. I mean, I don't think there's a problem with politics so long as discussions can remain civil. The problem is when people unironically try to make politics be the center of everything. You drink milk? Well, you must be a white supremacist, then (I'm sadly not joking, that was an actual topic that has come up). And so, so many entertainers over the past half decade have been willing to tank their careers and their reputations for thinking they got to pull one over on the last president (and failing miserably at it).
I can only speak for myself but I don't think videogames as a hobby has been ruined for me, even with all the talk of politics. In fact, this year was one of the best years of gaming for me and I'm very much looking forward to gaming in 2022. Also, I think people in this thread have been pretty civil on both sides.
 

Mamboo07

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Ngl I legit do want to see Morshu in smash it’s probably gonna be one of the craziest reveal and pick out there due to the fact nintendo do want to erase that piece of their history and yet CD-i games would be a part of their biggest video game celebration
However if Nintendo loved to reference Virtual boy in many of their games then what’s stopping them from referencing the CD-i games?
I can picture Morshu using the items that Link had like the Ball and Chain as well Sand Rod.

(The items you get are for taking on bosses)
 

Swamp Sensei

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I can picture Morshu using the items that Link had like the Ball and Chain as well Sand Rod.

(The items you get are for taking on bosses)
Why would Morshu use those weapons? He has no relation to the games they were in.
 

AlRex

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Diversity = variety, so I generally like it. Unfortunately, I can't think of that many black or brown leads in video games besides GTA protagonists, Shantae, the Prince of Persia, and real-life athletes (and occasionally, musicians).

That said, I'd definitely be down for some more Punch-Out characters, and Doc Louis and Mr. Sandman lean a little less towards stereotypes than some other Punch-Out characters, fortunately, from this standpoint. Some other characters from other series would fit in well, as well. I do also agree that more diversity should be present in actual game-making, and more opportunities allowed there.
 

Trevenant

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Why would Morshu not use completely random items lol? The character is only really well known through memes anyway so having him wear the magic armor just for the hell of it would be pretty funny tbh
 

ForsakenM

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You know, saying that something should happen without clarifying why or explaining your opinion doesn't make a terribly convincing argument. That's regardless of your view on the subject or the discussion at hand, btw.

Also, as long as it's done in a respectful manner and is reasonably related to Smash, I don't see why any kind of suggestion should be "kept away" from the game. It's not like people talking influences the game at all for now, now that DLC support has ended. The only downside I can think of is that it personally bothers you, which is unfortunate but there's not much anyone can do about it.
There's nothing wrong with representation to me. I just think that besides popularity, characters should be prioritised by what they offer and what new things they can bring gameplay-wise, with representation being a bonus, not a priority.

I don't want Elma because she can be considered a PoC. I want her because I liked her, I think she's a good character and she would be cool in Smash, she has dual swords, dual guns and a giant Mech Robot, and she would bring a Xenoblade X stage like Noctilum, Oblivia or Sylvalum and Xenoblade X music with her. Her being considered a PoC would be a bonus.
I remember the good ol' days when I got Pokemon Crystal for the first time and...'Wait, I can be a girl? That's crazy!'

More on topic, I have a few things to say on this topic before it ends.
  1. High Guardian Spice is the perfect example of a team of people caring more about their own agenda checklists then thinking about what their audience wants or really having any level of talent at all. Let us not push Smash to have the same criteria as High Guardian Spice, please and thanks.

  2. There is a difference between picking a character for their iconic nature and part of the iconic nature is their gender, race or orientation...and picking characters only because they check one of those boxes. This is the difference between putting Chun Li in Smash because she's Ms. Fighting Games to the majority of the world, or CJ or Franklin because GTA is a massive series that easily qualifies for gaming history...and picking Abby from TLOU2 because she's a 'strong female character', Krem from Dragon Age because they are trans, or Barret over other more requested FF or Square characters because he's black (and I love Barret! He's my favorite character both in OG and FF7R). Know and understand this difference, and realize we need to keep things the way they are now.

  3. Representation isn't an issue. You don't need something you identify with on a surface level shoved into everything you consume. Everyone has a skin color, a gender, and an orientation: this is basic level stuff, and frankly it's boring when the biggest trait of a character is one of these things. Relating to characters about overcoming hardship, a sense of justice, understanding more about themselves and the world the live in and many MANY other greater and grander topics is much more important then 'Hey, that character's skin is the same color as mine!' or 'Hey, that character has the same genitalia as me!'

  4. This is not how Smash picks characters, nor should it ever be. Sit down and be honest with yourself and think about all the iconic characters in gaming, and think about how many of them are minorities, and realize it isn't very many. Should any of those be passed up for another character that is way less known, way less iconic, way less beloved and way less requested just because 'We need more black characters!' or 'I can't believe there are no trans characters in Smash. This is outrageous!'

  5. Thank god Japan doesn't care about this stuff and that Sakurai is still at the helm. This means that the man who has worked on his game for decades and has seen what people want both over the years and currently is still in a fair amount of control, likely more with Furakawa in charge. Thus we never have to worry about agendas that don't care about the game or what it REALLY represents taking over and twisting it into something else.

  6. Bonus Stage, editing this one in: If you feel Smash NEEDS more diversity and isn't getting it, rather than yelling at the Smash devs to do something about it and trying to twist what Smash is about, go support another platform fighter that worries about New Age Diversity. Or better yet, go make your own: go make a platform fighter that ticks all those diversity boxes. Just remember, if you get too caught up in ticking boxes, you will end up like High Guardian Spice where your priority to push your narrative takes over providing a quality product or like Thirsty Sword Lesbians where your agenda is so abrasively demonstrated in your product that you alienate anyone who doesn't fit your niche target audience and thus are doomed to find lesser success.
 
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CannonStreak

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Hey guys, I had a thought the other day. It was great to see Sora from Kingdom Hearts get into Smash, and Disney by extension in the copyright section of the game. Now, I am not sure if Sora will be back, but if he does, now they just need to get Scorpion and another Mortal Kombat character in the next Smash Bros. and we can have Warner Bros. in the copyright section, and then we can have Disney versus Warner Bros!...in a way.

Still, knowing how Mortal Kombat is viewed in Japan, and since Mortal Kombat is an American game, that might be rather difficult to do.
 

Geno Boost

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i am gonna drop a couple of reason why Mr. Sandman should be in smash without the propaganda criteria:

-He is one of oldest villains Nintendo has made going back as far as 1983 and since we dont count Donkey Kong as villain now days due to him being not being the original one, Mr. Sandman will basically become the oldest villain present playable in smash.
-He had the most appearances being in every punch-out game and being the final boss twice in them (unless if you count the hand wrestling game which bald bull was in)
-He has enough move set to be unique you can even give him the ability to make fighters go to sleep with a punch from him
-He is a badass and epic and terrifying he isnt the easy type of final boss
 
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Swamp Sensei

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i am gonna drop a couple of reason why Mr. Sandman should be in smash without the propaganda criteria:

-He is one of oldest villains Nintendo has made going back as far as 1983 and since we dont count Donkey Kong as villain now days due to him being not being the original one, Mr. Sandman will basically become the oldest villain present playable in smash.
-He had the most appearances being in every punch-out game and being the final boss twice in them (unless if you count the hand wrestling game which bald bull was in)
-He has enough move set to be unique you can even give him the ability to make fighters go to sleep with a punch from him
-He is a badass and epic and terrifying he isnt the easy type of final boss
But... Sandman isn't a villain.
 

dream1ng

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Representation is an industry wide problem, but lets not pretend that Nintendo isn't sitting on a treasure trove of black characters that should be in Smash even by their own merits. Characters that come to mind are Doc Louis, Mr. Sandman, Urbosa, Twintelle, and Rodin* just to name a few. And that's not even going into characters that aren't explicitly black but could be interpreted that way like Tetra, Elma and Claude.
(*I believe Nintendo owns the Bayo series now, correct me if I'm wrong)
I've got to be honest - putting race aside, that's not the most stand-out collection of characters. Most of them fall short of the level inclusions are usually taken from, so saying they should be in Smash by their own merits is a bit of a stretch.

If someone listed Glass Joe, Soda Popinski, Mipha, Ninjara and Jeanne, would people get on board saying those characters should be in Smash? It's just... not a very impressive lineup, stature-wise.

They're not the kind of characters whose exclusion is all that surprising. Series like Punch-Out and Bayonetta (which is still third-party, btw) aren't really seen as in need of more characters, ARMS just got its first character, and they, understandably, went with the most popular one, and they could've gone with a Zelda champion but it's not like it's crazy that they didn't. And tbh, Urbosa isn't even the most popular one (outside of resetera, at least), Mipha is.

I think the only one that really could've stood toe to toe with the usual inclusions is Elma, but she was timed out. Though I think she would've been a much better promotional choice in the given timeframe than Corrin, but that's neither here nor there.

Nintendo is creating more characters these days with a wider variety of skin tones, so things, maybe slowly, will eventually shift, but honestly going into their back catalogue doesn't really yield a particularly bountiful array of candidates who can actually stand on par with the usual first-party hopefuls. If they did... we'd be talking about them. It's not like the fanbase as a whole is inherently discriminatory in terms of race or gender.
 

ForsakenM

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Nintendo is creating more characters these days with a wider variety of skin tones, so things, maybe slowly, will eventually shift, but honestly going into their back catalogue doesn't really yield a particularly bountiful array of candidates who can actually stand on par with the usual first-party hopefuls. If they did... we'd be talking about them. It's not like the fanbase as a whole is inherently discriminatory in terms of race or gender.
Also, it doesn't matter if they do make more video game characters with certain skin color or gender. What matters is that they make characters and games people love. Today people are so focused on making it about modern political agendas they forget to make quality products. The character ends up being whoever the character is, and you should enjoy and relate to the character for their entire package and the deeper things other than face-value crap.

By the by, THIS is what gamers complain about when they say 'keep politics out of our games'. They don't mean no politics at all because people love stuff like Civilization and lots of popular games have plots that mingle with politics. What they mean is mixing modern politics in games they have no place in, like how the head writer of the KOTOR remake is a man-hating feminist who ACTUALLY doesn't like the original KOTOR games or how what may end up being Atreus's love interest in Ragnarok is a Norse character who supposedly wasn't originally black and yet that was changed because...reasons? I don't even care much myself about that last one, interpretations change all the time, especially about gods and mythology, but it begs the question of what else may be changed for a quota that no one asked for.
 
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Ivander

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how what may end up being Atreus's love interest in Ragnarok is a Norse character who supposedly wasn't originally black and yet that was changed because...reasons? I don't even care much myself about that last one, interpretations change all the time, especially about gods and mythology, but it begs the question of what else may be changed for a quota that no one asked for.
Might not even be for a quota. You have the Fate series which originally did King Arthur as a girl mainly for a twist and it worked and made stuff on why King Arthur was actually a girl, but due to Gacha and Grand Order, most Male-to-female characters just get genderswapped to sell because waifus, not to make sense. And for some companies, representation is just another way to get people to buy their products, regardless of sense or what something originally was.
 
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Wonder Smash

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Hey guys, I had a thought the other day. It was great to see Sora from Kingdom Hearts get into Smash, and Disney by extension in the copyright section of the game. Now, I am not sure if Sora will be back, but if he does, now they just need to get Scorpion and another Mortal Kombat character in the next Smash Bros. and we can have Warner Bros. in the copyright section, and then we can have Disney versus Warner Bros!...in a way.

Still, knowing how Mortal Kombat is viewed in Japan, and since Mortal Kombat is an American game, that might be rather difficult to do.
I don't think getting a Mortal Kombat character would be that difficult. But if they're not able to get one, then Crash (assuming he would get in instead) would be the closest thing to it since he looks like a Looney Tunes character.
 
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