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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Yamat08

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Why is everyone predicting the Square characters are getting cut? They seemed like very popular inclusions and I feel like Square could really use the publicity with how infrequently they release huge mainstream games. I feel like people might be exaggerating how difficult they are to work with.
Yeah. Their content in Smash4 and base Ultimate was ridiculously small, but maybe it really was simply due to licensing issues. If they've managed to sort those out (especially as of Sephiroth's Challenger Pack), it might be easier for them to be involved in Smash moving forward. This seems all the more likely when you consider how much they've been jumping at the opportunity to promote new releases (and even to commemorate a two-year-old release) through the Spirit Board events.

Though, I also wouldn't put it past Squenix to have simply used Sephiroth as an opportunity to gatekeep Final Fantasy VII's content behind paid DLC (there's no denying that these guys are just a bit greedy when you consider that they price their retail games higher than everyone else's). But this could simply mean that their veterans would have to come back as DLC at worst.

And I'd say the rumors about them getting bought out by Sony are way overblown. Putting aside the fact that Sony are a literal trillion dollars in debt and they somehow only just managed to acquire Bungee, we've already discussed before in this thread how Japanese companies in general seem to be reluctant towards buyouts. Also, between Octopath Traveler, Triangle Strategy, upcoming remakes of Dragon Quest III and Live-A-Live, the upcoming Dragon Quest XII, and pretty much the entire Bravely Default franchise, all starting out as Nintendo exclusives (and in some cases, still are), it seems apparent that they still very much view Nintendo as a viable platform (it's especially noteworthy that, even if some of the games I mentioned did eventually lose their exclusivity status, it was mainly due to a PC port, while Sony has yet to get them). The only reason they seem to be in such a cozy relationship with Sony is because they typically need a more powerful system for their latest Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts (in a way, this goes back to the reason Square left Nintendo in the first place back in the late '90s, which was supposedly over Nintendo's refusal to use CDs), and given that they're putting cloud versions of these games on Switch (or a downgraded Pocket Edition in the case of Final Fantasy XV), while definitely not ideal, you can see that they're at least trying to give those games to Nintendo's audience as well.

Plus, and this is just my personal opinion, their ridiculous attempts at cinematic AAA titles with decade-long development cycles are the number one reason Squenix has been faltering over the years. So if they were ever forced to choose between Sony and Nintendo, I'd be all for them trimming that fat to focus exclusively on less visually impressive, but still fun, games on Nintendo's consoles (and if nothing else, they could expand their focus on PC gaming if they still wanted to make those overhyped titles..... of course, they'll need to do a better job on their ports before that can happen).
 

chocolatejr9

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Plus, and this is just my personal opinion, their ridiculous attempts at cinematic AAA titles with decade-long development cycles are the number one reason Squenix has been faltering over the years. So if they were ever forced to choose between Sony and Nintendo, I'd be all for them trimming that fat to focus exclusively on less visually impressive, but still fun, games on Nintendo's consoles (and if nothing else, they could expand their focus on PC gaming if they still wanted to make those overhyped titles..... of course, they'll need to do a better job on their ports before that can happen).
FWIW, I feel that's part of the reason they sold most of their Western stuff.
 

Sucumbio

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Ryu Hayabusa. After watching a speed run of the original nes game I am hugely supportive of his inclusion. His spinning sword slash, his boomerang like ninja star, fire balls... He could absolutely be a great addition and fill the Ninja motif if Sheik and or Greninja get cut...

Speaking of Zelda cuts lol no I don't see Ganondorf getting cut. Maybe reworked some more, but eliminated altogether? Seems like a nuclear option.

As for SquareEnix content..... Eh I mean maybe? Third party characters in general seem to be more vulnerable to cuts than Nintendo owned ones... There's a lot of 3rd party characters and in a world where the next game is not Ultimate DX and is instead a fresh approach yes I can see Cloud getting left out same as Mega Man, Belmont, All the FGC, Snake, Sonic.... But at some point we have to be realistic and understand that other 3rd party characters will be entertained and many could be renegotiated... Assuming their licensing deals are indeed restricted to Ultimate.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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I think a rotation of characters within the third parties we have is much more likely than ones outright being gone (barring maybe SNK and that might depend on what its current owners want). At the very least, I think it's more probable that it will be more of a first party decision than from tough negotiation by the ones involved.

As noted, SE has had its issues, but much like when they restarted their relationship with Nintendo via GBA releases in the early aughts to mitigate their losses after the Spirits Within bombed, there's a major incentive to continue working with the Big N in a number of ways with stuff like Smash. Doubly so when a Japanese focus might be likely after selling is Western IP's.

Sega's had the longest third party representation in Smash without interruption and given reports they're likely working on remakes/sequels to old franchises, they have all the reason to put characters in the next entry.

Bandai-Namco is actively helping make Pokémon games and might even be working on the next Smash, so there's not much hurting that relationship.

Konami's entire current business model is Japanese oriented, often with focus on Switch releases, and licensing out their IPs for licensing; continued presence in Smash makes complete sense with that.

Microsoft is a bit of a wild card, but if higher ups continue to see Nintendo as less direct competition and put their aim at Game Pass, a major presence in SSB would work for that.
 

Diddy Kong

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Yeah basically all of these are in danger, though I think Greninja's lasting popularity makes it more likely to come back and I also think Three Houses' performance will keep Byleth around (though we'll have to see how it ages compared to Awakening and Fates).

Also, points for mentioning Joker as a potential cut.



It is fair to say that before Robin was revealed for Smash, Chrom and Lucina were the bigger characters. That should be considered. I think there's just been a general attitude change towards avatar-type characters, though, since the likes of Villager, the FE avatars, and (to a lesser extent) Inkling have made it in. I also remember the Sakurai comment about timing; but I don't know how seriously we should take that at this point, and Awakening's legacy has held up very well, so I think at least one of the trio of Robin/Lucina/Chrom will stay. I guess there could be a scenario where representing Awakening with only one rep becomes necessary and Lucina is just the easier deal. You make fair arguments overall on this front, however.

Wii Fit originally got in due to sales and relevancy; it also represents the overall "casual gaming" fad in the Wii/DS era. So it is fair to say that it would probably be lower priority now than it was when it was first chosen. It's kind of weird to think of it as a "legacy" character now, but I think it will stay due to that legacy and the fact that it is a fighter unlike any other on the roster who expanded people's ideas of what can be added to Smash. Plus removing the sole rep for an entire first party series that had mega sales in its heyday will probably not be taken too lightly.
But you're right that it's not 100% safe.

Ganondorf, well, that's a tricky situation in general and I could see it going so many ways that it almost seems most likely that he would just return as a clone again, as disappointing as that would be for many...

Roy is pretty popular but not quite in the Lyn/Ike tier and has a history of, well, actually being cut. I know he was seemingly worked on for Brawl and eventually made it into 4, but things are only going to get more difficult to stay from here on out. I could also see FE6 getting remade, which would help him some, but just the one remake might not be enough given that remakes rarely seem to put people on the PC roster (plus said remake is definitely not a sure thing at this point).
Awakening is a legacy game , and for sure held out it's popularity and importance. Lucina will forever stay, she's easy to add into Smash too and her simple change from Marth is genius, she's also extremely popular.

I could see both Chrom and Robin leave actually, but be readded through DLC. Where Chrom would get his own moveset and Robin a slight tweak without the durability gimmick, and maybe coupled with a Grima boss battle / alt for Robin too.

Wii Fit Trainer is actually a big maybe too but I don't really believe it's legacy is all that impactful, or at least to remain in Smash. I honestly wish I could put the Mii Fighters out, they'd be the very first characters I would cut honestly.

Ganondorf is just a big question what they'll do with him. In all actuality, I think he'll remain and be exactly like in Ultimate with maybe , just MAYBE one different Special move. It's easy to keep him a clone when it's quite rewarding so far for them, and there are no new appearances anyway. So him being like this might actually help, even if there's a new Ganon.

I'm confident Sheik and Ice Climbers are also low priority. They're gimmick characters that aren't that popular or relevant. Easily some of the weirdest choices in Smash history too that nobody would ask for if they didn't make Melee.

Roy isn't quite Ike or Lyn tier of popularity but he's not unpopular either. Out of him and Lucas, the other Smash 4 DLC character that's a bit shaky (cause Mewtwo isn't going anywhere of course) he wasn't explicitly cut for the base game. Roy also got a moveset revamp, he's popular in Ultimate with pros and casuals too, and there's the legacy status of Fire Emblem 6 in Japan, it was the revival before Awakening. The remake however is not too sure. But I think he'd stay purely because he's easier to include, popular, a legacy character for Japan, and if they would cut Fire Emblem characters I think Corrin would go first, Robin second.

Byleth is probably safe because of Three Houses being the most successful Fire Emblem ever, and Three Hopes comes out soon. I could see them rework Byleth actually, have them be based more around the Sword of the Creator, akin to the Belmont play style , coupled with some magic, to give the Fire Emblem roster it's long ranged fighter in Byleth and the Robin and Belmont play styles wouldn't be entirely lost.
 

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Not gonna lie. A lot of these cut lists are... reallly really dumb. There's no reason to cut Falco, Palutena or Sheik. There are vast misunderstandings of how Fire Emblem's marketing works and people don't seem to understand that true cuts rarely happen.

It's a priority system. Characters are given priority and most are originally intended only to fall out once time constraints happen. While we don't know much about Smash 4's cuts (due to Nintendo wising up) we do know that the only true cuts for Brawl were Young Link who essentially got an update in Toon Link, and Pichu. The rest were meant to come back and had work done on them.

I only see a handful of characters being chosen as true cuts, and even then I'm skeptical for several reasons.

Corrin and Incineroar have mixed reception both in and out of Smash. Byleth had a disastrous reveal reception (even if they're super popular in Fire Emblem circles). Pirahna Plant didn't seem to stick like the other surprise characters. Young Link is redundant with the more popular Toon Link. Pichu was true cut before.

So like...
Corrin
Incineroar
Byleth
Pirahna Plant
Young Link
Pichu

I can't think of many other first party characters who'd get outright cut. Like... Doc? Maybe? And even then I'm doubtful here with these choices. Each of these characters have tons of merit and could easily stay (please keep Incineroar and Byleth, they're fun). Even with mixed reception, Corrin still tops popularity polls and Incineroar puts some major numbers too. Any other character would probably be outed by priority instead of any particular reason.

I can't see characters like Zero Suit Samus, Roy or Wii Fit Trainer being cut for any reason other than simply not having enough time and resources. And I don't expect them to go regardless unless the roster is gutted at which point, it's not gonna stop at the characters you want gone. Seriously though, stop cutting Roy. I'm 90% sure he's with Mewtwo in the not gonna be cut again train.

Pokemon Trainer and Ice Climbers don't seem to be big technical hurdles anymore. I doubt we'll ever have a veteran cut for that reason ever again. We aren't getting weaker hardware like we did with the 3DS.

I'm not gonna bother with echoes, we have no precedent with them other than Lucina and Dark Pit weren't cut in the game everyone came back for.

Third parties have rights issues but they can be impossible to predict. I know the easy thing is to lump Square and Konami in and say they're hard to work with but Square got several characters, finally got us remixes and even got Sora. I think Square loves Smash, they just have to go through legal hell. But it's a hell they seem to be willing to go through and with the death of Dragon Quest's composer (phooey to that guy), its gonna get easier.

I can't see Sega, Namco, Capcom, SNK, Atlus or Platinum getting in the way of any rights issues. Square's relationship with Nintendo is only getting better. So that leaves what? Konami, Microsoft and Disney? Konami seems to be a true enigma but they probably loved the hype around Snake, Simon and Richter and they licensed quite a bit of stuff. Nintendo will probably fight tooth and toenail to get Banjo, Steve and Sora back due to popularity. Third party companies are probably impossible to predict.

So are some third parties just gonna be out prioritized? Maybe. But that's hard to argue, they headline announcements every time. Will Nintendo just stop wanting them? Probably not for the same reason.

We don't know why Snake was cut in Smash 4. Without that knowledge I don't think we can make a good assumption about third party cuts. There haven't been enough to analyze.

Cut talk always bugs me because it's pretty clear bias plays a huge role in these lists. The logic used is reductionist, simplified and often pretty stupid. It's often done out of a desire to "purify" the roster of undesirables instead of actually predicting who'd get cut and why. It's where the malice people have towards characters seeps out.

Anywho, Phoenix Wright for Smash, yay!
 
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SPEN18

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Wii Fit Trainer is actually a big maybe too but I don't really believe it's legacy is all that impactful, or at least to remain in Smash.
Care to elaborate more on why you are so down on Wii Fit's legacy? I know it is partly a different audience than the Smash one, but it was clearly one of the most successful series in the very successful Wii era.

I honestly wish I could put the Mii Fighters out, they'd be the very first characters I would cut honestly.
Unfortunately, they make way too much off selling the costumes for the Miis to be cut. And the varied moveset options I think are a big part of their plan for doing that selling. I know, I'm not a huge fan of the current setup with them myself.
But I've warmed up to the idea of a single Mii moveset that represents various things like the Sports games or, man, even some indirect representation for Pilotwings. In any case I vastly prefer something that, you know, doesn't take three whole unique slots.

I could see both Chrom and Robin leave actually, but be readded through DLC. Where Chrom would get his own moveset and Robin a slight tweak without the durability gimmick, and maybe coupled with a Grima boss battle / alt for Robin too.
I might actually be okay with that, even if it would not be my absolute ideal scenario. Especially if pushing some FE vets to DLC would make a newcomer like Lyn more likely in base (not sure it would, but I'm saying if).

Ganondorf is just a big question what they'll do with him. In all actuality, I think he'll remain and be exactly like in Ultimate with maybe , just MAYBE one different Special move. It's easy to keep him a clone when it's quite rewarding so far for them, and there are no new appearances anyway. So him being like this might actually help, even if there's a new Ganon.
Yeah honestly at this point one new special move on Ganondorf would have to be seen as a win, IMO.

I'm confident Sheik and Ice Climbers are also low priority. They're gimmick characters that aren't that popular or relevant. Easily some of the weirdest choices in Smash history too that nobody would ask for if they didn't make Melee.
I think that they should be low priority, yeah. I am more confident that ICs will actually be low, but there's a part of me that's concerned they will continue to grandfather Sheik. And, yeah, as you reiterate they are basically Melee relics at this point.

I'll note that Ice Climber is actually higher on the sales chart than I thought before; Wikipedia at least has it at 1.5 mil units. But I still wouldn't call it an era-defining game by any means and its reputation hasn't even aged that great, despite the inclusion in Smash as far back as Melee.

Byleth is probably safe because of Three Houses being the most successful Fire Emblem ever, and Three Hopes comes out soon
Some of the other FE games like Awakening have an argument to be called the "most successful" FE, but yeah agreed that Byleth is probably staying based on how well TH did and is still doing.

--

There's no reason to cut Falco, Palutena or Sheik
They're not relevant anymore, and I'm not sure that the legacy is so overwhelming that they will be given high enough priority to stay. In the first two cases their series isn't doing so well right now and the future prospects are shaky. And the latter was a circumstantial pick from Melee that is quite fortunate, frankly, to have made it this far.

It's a priority system. Characters are given priority and most are originally intended only to fall out once time constraints happen
I think most people are aware of that. Most of the discussion of guessing which characters will be cut is implicitly under the assumption that these are the characters most likely to have perilously low priority.
 

Swamp Sensei

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They're not relevant anymore, and I'm not sure that the legacy is so overwhelming that they will be given high enough priority to stay. In the first two cases their series isn't doing so well right now and the future prospects are shaky
Falco and Sheik absolutely have that legacy. Melee alone gives them so much exposure, not to mention Brawl ( for Falco) and Smash 4 (for Sheik).

Sheik is from OoT. One of the most influential games of all time. I don't see how she doesn't have legacy. She still appears in big franchise wide celebrations like Warriors.

And why on earth would one cut Falco before Wolf? The character who was cut before? I don't see Star Fox going down past two characters. And those two would be Fox and Falco.

Palutena was a super popular request for Smash 4. And she's still popular to this day. She's got major exposure in the competitive Ultimate scene. She's often cited as the best part of Uprising. I'm confident she wouldn't be cut unless the roster is gutted.
 
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Not gonna lie. A lot of these cut lists are... reallly really dumb. There's no reason to cut Falco, Palutena or Sheik. There are vast misunderstandings of how Fire Emblem's marketing works and people don't seem to understand that true cuts rarely happen.

It's a priority system. Characters are given priority and most are originally intended only to fall out once time constraints happen. While we don't know much about Smash 4's cuts (due to Nintendo wising up) we do know that the only true cuts for Brawl were Young Link who essentially got an update in Toon Link, and Pichu. The rest were meant to come back and had work done on them.

I only see a handful of characters being chosen as true cuts, and even then I'm skeptical for several reasons.

Corrin and Incineroar have mixed reception both in and out of Smash. Byleth had a disastrous reveal reception (even if they're super popular in Fire Emblem circles). Pirahna Plant didn't seem to stick like the other surprise characters. Young Link is redundant with the more popular Toon Link. Pichu was true cut before.

So like...
Corrin
Incineroar
Byleth
Pirahna Plant
Young Link
Pichu

I can't think of many other first party characters who'd get outright cut. Like... Doc? Maybe? And even then I'm doubtful here with these choices. Each of these characters have tons of merit and could easily stay (please keep Incineroar and Byleth, they're fun). Even with mixed reception, Corrin still tops popularity polls and Incineroar puts some major numbers too. Any other character would probably be outed by priority instead of any particular reason.

I can't see characters like Zero Suit Samus, Roy or Wii Fit Trainer being cut for any reason other than simply not having enough time and resources. And I don't expect them to go regardless unless the roster is gutted at which point, it's not gonna stop at the characters you want gone. Seriously though, stop cutting Roy. I'm 90% sure he's with Mewtwo in the not gonna be cut again train.

Pokemon Trainer and Ice Climbers don't seem to be big technical hurdles anymore. I doubt we'll ever have a veteran cut for that reason ever again. We aren't getting weaker hardware like we did with the 3DS.

I'm not gonna bother with echoes, we have no precedent with them other than Lucina and Dark Pit weren't cut in the game everyone came back for.

Third parties have rights issues but they can be impossible to predict. I know the easy thing is to lump Square and Konami in and say they're hard to work with but Square got several characters, finally got us remixes and even got Sora. I think Square loves Smash, they just have to go through legal hell. But it's a hell they seem to be willing to go through and with the death of Dragon Quest's composer (phooey to that guy), its gonna get easier.

I can't see Sega, Namco, Capcom, SNK, Atlus or Platinum getting in the way of any rights issues. Square's relationship with Nintendo is only getting better. So that leaves what? Konami, Microsoft and Disney? Konami seems to be a true enigma but they probably loved the hype around Snake, Simon and Richter and they licensed quite a bit of stuff. Nintendo will probably fight tooth and toenail to get Banjo, Steve and Sora back due to popularity. Third party companies are probably impossible to predict.

So are some third parties just gonna be out prioritized? Maybe. But that's hard to argue, they headline announcements every time. Will Nintendo just stop wanting them? Probably not for the same reason.

We don't know why Snake was cut in Smash 4. Without that knowledge I don't think we can make a good assumption about third party cuts. They're haven't been enough to analyze.

Cut talk always bugs me because it's pretty clear bias plays a huge role in these lists. The logic used is reductionist, simplified and often pretty stupid. It's often done out of a desire to "purify" the roster of undesirables instead of actually predicting who'd get cut and why. It's where the malice people have towards characters seeps out.

Anywho, Phoenix Wright for Smash, yay!
While I agree about it being mostly about priorities, I don't think we can sit here and claim to know what those priorities are. You're talking about popularity a lot, but that might not be a significant metric for the devs at all. It could be, and I think it will to a degree, but they could also be going primarily for marketing or a broad representation of the company's history. There's a small chance they form the roster from the ground up to create something more holistic (I'm not talking about assets here, just the character selection process). Any of these ideas come with a different order of importance.

Roy specifically is probably the most complicated character in the roster in terms of priorities. Back in Brawl days, he was clearly lower priority than other characters, or he would have made it in and they would have been unfinished instead. Then again, he has popularity. He's also a semiclone of a character with another clone, and we don't know how future Smash devs would prioritize clones. He's also part of a series that is almost sure to get cuts if first-party cuts happen. There are a lot of factors in play with the guy that just don't apply to everyone. So suggesting he might have the possibility of being on the chopping block isn't that stupid.

Toon Link is only more popular than Young Link in Japan, but I do agree Young Link would be cut first.

In the third-party space, I'm of the belief that the main reason for some of them not to come back is money, not complicated licensing. Profit is going to a thing, and at least for base game there is some level where licensing money could start becoming problematic. To be completely fair, we don't know what those amounts are, but we do know that returning mii costumes got relegated to DLC, so it's probably not nothing.

Personally, I'm not expecting many of my favorites to stay, since I don't think we're seeing an Ultimate-sized roster next time. Doctor Mario seems like one of the more obvious cuts because of redundancy. Both Toon Link and Young Link require the devs to think a child Link is worth keeping when they could just alter adult Link to be a middle ground and only have one Link. Incineroar is a tossup because every other playable Pokemon besides Pichu is both more popular and well-established over time. I think Falco should stay, but there's the possibility that Star Fox in general could be low priority, and then Falco's fate would be in question because there's no chance he wins over Fox if only one comes back and some people would rather keep Wolf than Falco (probably for the villain angle, but idk).

They're not relevant anymore, and I'm not sure that the legacy is so overwhelming that they will be given high enough priority to stay. In the first two cases their series isn't doing so well right now and the future prospects are shaky. And the latter was a circumstantial pick from Melee that is quite fortunate, frankly, to have made it this far.
I do think there are some characters that are basically Smash staples, and exist in Smash purely because they are supposed to appear in Smash. Captain Falcon and Sheik are two of those, and I'd say Falco also is to a degree. Falco's Smash popularity nosedived after Brawl, though, and I'm inclined to think his bad balance in Smash 4 was part of the reason for that. Same for Sheik in Ultimate.
 

SPEN18

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Falco and Sheik absolutely have that legacy. Melee alone gives them so much exposure, not to mention Brawl ( for Falco) and Smash 4 (for Sheik).
If you're talking about being high on tier lists, I think that means next to nothing in this context. We're talking about a much more general (and much more casual) audience when we're talking about popularity and exposure that is able to have a clear effect on rostering.

They are popular characters for sure, and would have maybe an okay chance at being DLC if cut in base, but at the end of the day they are non-main characters who are not regularly having major appearances anymore. Appearing in, like, Starlink and Warriors games is not that much in the big picture.

Sheik is from OoT. One of the most influential games of all time. I don't see how she doesn't have legacy.
Didn't say no legacy. Just that, individually, the legacy is not so overwhelming to overcome the facts that Sheik is not the main character in OoT, that OoT has other potential avenues of representation, and in combination with the last item that there are other iconic Zelda games besides OoT that people want represented.

And why on earth would one cut Falco before Wolf? The character who was cut before? I don't see Star Fox going down past two characters. And those two would be Fox and Falco.
It could be either or both that is cut. Neither is safe. Maybe after seeing the ballot, they would put Wolf above Falco? Idk how strong that last statement is, but you could squint and see it. Wolf's status as a villain could maybe help him, I guess, too. Regardless, Falco and Wolf are both in danger. If Star Fox doesn't appear again before the next Smash then it could absolutely go down to just one rep. If it sees a sequel revival (in which Krystal and Wolf might end up quite plot-important again) then we could get Krystal even if one or both of the clones don't make it. I'm not so sure that Falco was even that high in priority for 4, tbh.

Falco's Smash popularity nosedived after Brawl, though, and I'm inclined to think his bad balance in Smash 4 was part of the reason for that. Same for Sheik in Ultimate.
A much more likely explanation, IMO, is that they just don't have major appearances so much anymore.
 

Yamat08

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Not gonna lie. A lot of these cut lists are... reallly really dumb. There's no reason to cut Falco, Palutena or Sheik. There are vast misunderstandings of how Fire Emblem's marketing works and people don't seem to understand that true cuts rarely happen.

It's a priority system. Characters are given priority and most are originally intended only to fall out once time constraints happen. While we don't know much about Smash 4's cuts (due to Nintendo wising up) we do know that the only true cuts for Brawl were Young Link who essentially got an update in Toon Link, and Pichu. The rest were meant to come back and had work done on them.

I only see a handful of characters being chosen as true cuts, and even then I'm skeptical for several reasons.
Yeah, and really, who's to say that Pichu wasn't going to be planned for Brawl as well (Young Link is harder to gauge, though)?

Going forward, I could see them just saving the low-priority or third-party characters for DLC. It would be a great way to recupperate costs (for content they likely had to just port over anyway), and honestly, would a lot of Smash fans really have a problem if another Everyone Is Here roster was given to them a la carte? Hell, how many of us out there have bought ALL the Mii costumes? If the fandom's devoted enough, they WILL see a hefty return for their efforts.
 

Quillion

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I hope they'll at least consider a "rotating spot" for franchises that switch out their main characters like Fire Emblem, Pokémon, and Xenoblade. It would make sure we get the "fresh faces" from those franchises while keeping the old icons and avoiding the unsustainability of bringing back every single character every time.
 

SPEN18

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Something I forgot to respond to earlier (but I'd like it to have its own post anyway):

It's where the malice people have towards characters seeps out.
I'd like to make it clear that there is no need for "malice" to be involved in talking about cuts, whether we're talking in terms of wants or likelihoods. In fact, I'd like discussion of cuts to return to the Smash discourse in such a way that we can talk about them responsibly without resorting to baseless hating on characters. Like it or not, they have been an active part of the speculation reality for a very long time and I do not think it wise to discourage discussing them, especially in light of Sakurai's recent comments on how hard it would be to do Ultimate again.

The Smash rostering process is, by nature, competitive; there are fewer slots than there are characters to fill them, even if you restrict just to highly popular requests. So naturally there will be comparisons drawn between characters and their merits. And since each PC is a carefully planned and executed work of art that takes a good amount of resources (even clones), people can naturally become very opinionated on how the precious resources are used.

I don't think that not wanting a character should be met with derision if it is expressed respectfully. Nobody gets shade just for liking one sports team over another.
 

Chuderz

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How much can a single moveset be semicloned? With Fox we have 2 semiclones in Falco and Wolf so twice I guess. I think Falco could use a little bit more unique animations but I guess he still barely qualifies with him (Falco) being on the complete opposite end of Wolf and Lucas.

Could this be a possible route to implementing the likes of Ninten, Raichu, Tom Nook and possibly Akuma perhaps? Sure.

Just a random thought I had playing the game today.
 

Quillion

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How much can a single moveset be semicloned? With Fox we have 2 semiclones in Falco and Wolf so twice I guess. I think Falco could use a little bit more unique animations but I guess he still barely qualifies with him (Falco) being on the complete opposite end of Wolf and Lucas.

Could this be a possible route to implementing the likes of Ninten, Raichu, Tom Nook and possibly Akuma perhaps? Sure.

Just a random thought I had playing the game today.
That's the thing I like the least about Star Fox's representation in Smash. Granted, their only other source material is in non-Andross War games that are ignored by Nintendo nowadays, but at least make up new things!

Also, of the potential semiclones you suggested, I think only Akuma is possible. Ninten is unnecessary since Ness is essentially a "reboot" of him, Raichu is barely marketed, and Nook is usurped by Isabelle as the mascot special character of Animal Crossing.
 

Perkilator

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How much can a single moveset be semicloned? With Fox we have 2 semiclones in Falco and Wolf so twice I guess. I think Falco could use a little bit more unique animations but I guess he still barely qualifies with him (Falco) being on the complete opposite end of Wolf and Lucas.

Could this be a possible route to implementing the likes of Ninten, Raichu, Tom Nook and possibly Akuma perhaps? Sure.

Just a random thought I had playing the game today.
Well, one idea I had for, say, Celica as a Robin Echo was to make her a mix of Robin and Marth.
 

SPEN18

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Nook is usurped by Isabelle as the mascot special character of Animal Crossing
While Isabelle has perhaps surpassed Nook in the current marketing, Nook is still a prominent figure and the Animal Crossing series as a whole could use more reps (the main reason it doesn't have more, I think, is not getting a character at all until 4). Nook would be next up from his series and would be a true allstar add.

Overall I think Nook's chances are underestimated at this point. Villager's FS says nothing anymore, either, if it ever did.

Agreed that Ninten would be superfluous despite Mother 1 being a rad game. And that Raichu is pretty far down the list, even if you just look at potentially cloneable mons like Blaziken for C. Falcon or Salamence/Dragonite for Zard.
 
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Chuderz

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Well, one idea I had for, say, Celica as a Robin Echo was to make her a mix of Robin and Marth.
I think that could be a neat mix-up. I can't add much except that I read it and could see it. I had to look up the character though because I'm not a fan of Fire Emblem.

The echoes are quite an interesting bunch. With Ken you have a semiclone with various unique moves being constituted as an echo for some reason. Dark Samus demonstrates that unique idle/walk/dash animations are fair game and Chrom demonstrates that specials can be pulled from completely different characters than the one the echo is being based upon.

All of these things lead me to believe that Shadow the Hedgehog is literally the perfect echo candidate. Already has a model in-game with a functioning skeleton in Sonic with all the numerous corresponding animations. On top of that you could give him Sonic's Neutral-Special, Mewtwo/Palutena's Up-Special, Wario's Side-Special and a reanimated version (I think this could also be pull from his current Assist Trophy with him pulling out of the chaos crystal to start the counter-frames) of Bayonetta's Down-Special. That's all pre-established work being capitalized on for an extreme return. With all the work they'd have saved doing all of that they could give him unique moves for the rest of his kit.
 
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osby

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All of these things lead me to believe that Shadow the Hedgehog is literally the perfect echo candidate. Already has a model in-game with a functioning skeleton in Sonic with all the numerous corresponding animations. On top of that you could give him Sonic's Neutral-Special, Mewtwo/Palutena's Up-Special, Wario's Side-Special and a reanimated version (I think this could also be pull from his current Assist Trophy with him pulling out of the chaos crystal to start the counter-frames) of Bayonetta's Down-Special. That's all pre-established work being capitalized on for an extreme return. With all the work they'd have saved doing all of that they could give him unique moves for the rest of his kit.
While echos are shown to be able to have their unique moves, they still need to be similar enough that the balancing team shouldn't start from scratch. Not only giving Shadow four specials from completely different fighters would defeat the purpose, but you also wouldn't have that much established work as his skeleton is different from the fighters you listed, meaning that they would have to animate him from scratch.

I don't think they'd save much work by going with your preposition. If anything, it sounds like he'd be a semi-unique character like Lucas and Wolf.

Also, more experienced people already commented on this but the models that Assist Trophies use usually have lower polygons with more simple skeletons compared to playable fighters. I think the difference is not that big in certain assists but Shadow's simple mechanic led me to believe that he's one of the more basic ones.
 

Chuderz

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While echos are shown to be able to have their unique moves, they still need to be similar enough that the balancing team shouldn't start from scratch. Not only giving Shadow four specials from completely different fighters would defeat the purpose, but you also wouldn't have that much established work as his skeleton is different from the fighters you listed, meaning that they would have to animate him from scratch.

I don't think they'd save much work by going with your preposition. If anything, it sounds like he'd be a semi-unique character like Lucas and Wolf.

Also, more experienced people already commented on this but the models that Assist Trophies use usually have lower polygons with more simple skeletons compared to playable fighters. I think the difference is not that big in certain assists but Shadow's simple mechanic led me to believe that he's one of the more basic ones.
Yes all of his specials (under my reuse proposal) minus the Neutral-Special from Sonic would have to be new animations and yes his Assist Trophy model would need to be touched up because I think (I don't honestly know) they can just start with his Assist Trophy model as a base and then simply "upgrade" it to the same level of polish as the rest of the playable cast.

With all that considered Sonic's skeleton should be good for the overwhelming majority of everything else like falling, walking dashing, taking damage, sleeping/stunned, picking up various items, being on the receiving end of various final smash attacks and the like. I think even just that would save an astronomical amount of time putting him together at least when compared to a wholly unique entrant.

I think doing the specials this way is a very unique situation that I only bring up to help strengthen Shadow's position in echo fighter discussion. While the new animations for his repurposed specials would have to be done it'd still be a heck of a lot quicker just doing some new animations for existing moves than programming entirely new ones that'd also new animations and I think this route is MUCH preferable than simply giving him all of Sonic's specials.

I think he presents a really cool opportunity for a composite character, a fighter archetype that rarely gets explored across the entire genre. Kirby does this already in Smash with his Neutral-Special to great effect. Another idea I have for a composite character would be Ditto from Pokemon taking all of his moves from all Pokemon currently in Smash when/if Ditto was ever implemented. You could assign a specific character to a specific section like all tilts will be repurposed from Greninja exclusively but I think it'd be more fun to make it entirely chaotic which set of moves being a completely different Pokemon! Ditto would take the shape of the relevant Pokemon when doing the move just like he already does and has the programming for in Ultimate today!

A little aside but this is also why I think Double from Skullgirls deserves to be the rep from that series should that unlikely scenario ever materialize.
 

Stratos

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Some have assumed that only characters from Japanese video games come in the Super Smash Bros. series. Banjo, Kazooie and Steve are Microsoft video game characters who as we all know are not a Japanese company and yet they came to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate as DLC newcomer characters. So I can not rule out a video game character that is not of a Japanese company.
 
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True Blue Warrior

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There is this sentiment that constantly prioritising protagonists is a bad idea since that supposedly leads to homogeneity but that’s not actually true and hasn’t been since Smash 64, where there roster is mostly comprised of protagonists and it is richly diverse.

Some have assumed that only characters from Japanese video games come in the Super Smash Bros. series. Banjo, Kazooie and Steve are Microsoft video game characters who as we all know are not a Japanese company and yet they came to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate as DLC newcomer characters. So I can not rule out a video game character that is not of a Japanese company.
Those people were proven wrong.
 

Gengar84

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On the subject of western characters, how would you guys feel about a Borderlands character in Smash? I never hear that series brought up in discussion and every game is on the Switch and the series is hugely popular. There are a ton of really interesting characters with unique abilities that could translate to a fun Smash moveset. Finally, the Embracer Group seems to be growing all the time so it wouldn’t be out of the question to get a rep in Smash.

There is this sentiment that constantly prioritising protagonists is a bad idea since that supposedly leads to homogeneity but that’s not actually true and hasn’t been since Smash 64, where there roster is mostly comprised of protagonists and it is richly diverse.
I feel like a lot of that comes down to personal preference. I’m happy with Smash’s roster overall but most of my favorite characters in Smash are either villains or side characters. I love Sephiroth, Ganondorf, K. Rool, Ridley, Bowser, Lucario, Mewtwo, Sheik, Metaknight, and others. I tend to prefer characters that have a bit of edge to them but are still colorful and stylish. A lot of protagonists are purposely less interesting in order to let the rest of the cast shine. This works really well for the games they’re from but I personally think it can make for a bit less interesting choices for Smash, especially with so many silent avatars.

I feel similarly to Smash going with so many opening stages when there are many more interesting locations to pull from. Look at DK and Mario for example. All their stages tend to look pretty similar but there is so much more variety in their home series that doesn’t get represented in Smash.
 
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True Blue Warrior

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I feel similarly to Smash going with so many opening stages when there are many more interesting locations to pull from. Look at DK and Mario for example. All their stages tend to look pretty similar but there is so much more variety in their home series that doesn’t get represented in Smash.
New Donk City is pretty different and as for DK, it really doesn’t help the one non-jungle stage is also considered to be the worst stage in Smash history. The lack of a standalone Bowser’s Castle stage is weird though.
 

Gengar84

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On the topic of western characters…man, I’ll never not feel bad for wanting Crash knowing he’s owned by Activision.
I feel you. I want a lot of Blizzard characters like Sarah Kerrigan, Illidan Stormrage, and Diablo. I try not to think too much about all the controversy. Let’s just hope Microsoft can clean up Activision/Blizzard’s horrible work environment so people don’t have to feel guilty just for wanting to see their favorite characters in Smash (and more importantly that the staff doesn’t have to put up with the terrible abuse).
 
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SPEN18

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There is this sentiment that constantly prioritising protagonists is a bad idea since that supposedly leads to homogeneity but that’s not actually true and hasn’t been since Smash 64, where there roster is mostly comprised of protagonists and it is richly diverse.
While I do not think being a protagonist should be a requirement, I also don't want them to avoid picking a protagonist just for the sake of "more variety."

Especially when the nature of a crossover like this lends itself so naturally to more variety than anyone could ask for.
 

Gengar84

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I think part of my issue is that there aren’t many main protagonists that match my taste in characters. Smash doesn’t have very many dark or tough type characters. A lot of the protagonists are bright and cheery teenagers. I like characters like Lulu or Auron but there aren’t a whole lot of main characters that are very similar to those two.

I was a little disappointed that Ultimate changed Zelda from being one of my favorite characters to another bright and cheery character. I don’t mind her now but she went from being possibly my favorite character to somewhere in the middle.
 
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chocolatejr9

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I think part of my issue is that there aren’t many main protagonists that match my taste in characters. Smash doesn’t have very many dark or tough type characters. A lot of the protagonists are bright and cheery teenagers. I like characters like Lulu or Auron but there aren’t a whole lot of main characters that are very similar to those two.

I was a little disappointed that Ultimate changed Zelda from being one of my favorite characters to another bright and cheery character. I don’t mind her now but she went from being possibly my favorite character to somewhere in the middle.
Ever heard of Legacy of Kain? I recently started looking into it after Square Enix sold it to Embracer Group (they were making a big deal out of that series in particular, almost as much as Tomb Raider), and honestly Kain sounds like the kind of character you'd want.
 

Gengar84

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Ever heard of Legacy of Kain? I recently started looking into it after Square Enix sold it to Embracer Group (they were making a big deal out of that series in particular, almost as much as Tomb Raider), and honestly Kain sounds like the kind of character you'd want.
Yeah, I love Legacy of Kain. Raziel is one of my most wanted characters but I think he’s a bit of a long shot unfortunately. I actually post about Raziel every now and then on this board. I recently brought him up when brainstorming my ideas for healer characters.
 
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Gengar84

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Oh. Well, there's my ignorance showing again...
Darksiders is another series that pretty much exactly fits my tastes in characters. Death would make such an awesome Smash fighter. Same goes for various Blizzard characters or even many characters from League of Legends.
 

chocolatejr9

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Speaking of the Embracer Group buyout, they seem to already have plans for their new IPs:


Better hope Gex isn't one of them: I have to deal with those memes enough as is, I don't want him to become the next "meme Smash request"...
 
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