newcomers with pretty tough learning curves. Is this a good or bad thing?

[ミスティック Speed]

Good thing.
I believe the starter characters should be among the easiest to use. That's why they're starters.
The unlockables should have a higher learning curve as they require actual skill to be unlocked. It fits perfectly.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

one step ahead of you. Back on topic though...which characters seem the most complex to you in smash 4? I'm thinking Rosalina and Robin at the bare minimum are looking to be this.

Pfft bowser buddy ima need to learn some appropriate spacing for that man.

 

[Wintropy]

My brother's actually nigh-on unbeatable as Mr Game & Watch in Brawl. Just goes to show what a little time and effort can do, eh?

It's the same with any "oddball" characters in fighting games: just look at Peacock in Skullgirls or Arakune in BlazBlue. They're not easy to get to grips with. Both rely on learning their absurd fighting styles and getting to grips with how to use their tricky, unpredictable skills to your advantage. I can't really get the hang of them myself - I prefer simple, honest rushdown and aerial fighters, rather than complex and tactical fighters!

 

[Renji64]

I've said it before in the "proof sakurai is in touch" thread @Zipzo made and I will say it again. Going forward as we near the release dates of the 3DS and eventually Wii U versions of smash 4, we (the people excited for smash 4) will not I repeat WILL NOT tolerate people like you @ Renji64 who contribute nothing positive to the smash 4 conversations and instead make baseless unwarranted attacks on a game many of us are looking forward to playing as well as learning and developing the meta game. The Brawl community had people similar to you who always hurled their unnecessary two cents, yet the sub community for that game managed to hold their ground and thrive in their section of the forums and will still probably thrive for a good while longer.

I'm not asking this to be nice, I've had it up to here with ignorant trolls like you mercilessly bashing on an unreleased game that looks not only surpass Brawl, but arguably Melee as well. If you actually had constructive well rounded criticism for the game, it would be another story, but since we've time and again called you out on your insane troll logic towards 4 trying to get you to leave us alone, yet you've spat in our kind faces and continued with your ignorant anti smash 4 ways, its only fair we give you this one and only ultimatum. Either...


A. Bug off and retreat to the Melee/Project M forums since your posts make it clear that nothing is going to replace either game in your eyes.

B. Continue to be a jerk about a game you really don't know zilch about as its currently unreleased, but know that if you continue your short sighted ways, we as a smash 4 sub community will report every single post you make on here from this point forward which judging by your track record, it will make it easier for us to do so with no hard feelings.

On topic: As I said before with the Seth example from Street Fighter 4, once you master the intricacies of characters that require a bit of dexterity and a sharp mind for mind games, their weaknesses should be the least of your problems so long as you are bringing your entire A+ game with you.

Eat a P3nis I don't care about your opinion i say what i want deal with it. You mostly like smell like old dirty cheese fgt. I'll slap you so hard you will think brawl is a good game oh wait you already do. Catch these hands oct 3rd fgt.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Eat a P3nis I don't care about your opinion i say what i want deal with it. You mostly like smell like old dirty cheese fgt. I'll slap you so hard you will think brawl is a good game oh wait you already do. Catch these hands oct 3rd fgt.

well this is escalating quickly.

 

[pickle962]

well this is escalating quickly.

Ehh...forget about it. The guy FINALLY got an infraction (that I know of) and probably a PM with choice words telling him what he can expect if he continues this behavior. Sides, I took a screenshot of what he said in reply to my post aimed at him. Next time he's really making a fool of himself on these parts of SmashBoards and its very clear to us all that he's being hostile towards this subcommunity, all I got to do is post said screenshot and then sit back and watch the fireworks!

On topic (for reals this time): Bowser is looking pretty intriguing from whats been shown of him especially the SDCC 3DS footage talk about sick! Greninja from what I have heard seems to be the pokemon equivalent of Sheik and the ninja herself is looking to be back on top this time much like she was in Melee so that's always a good thing. Palutena seems like a spacing character as some of her specials are long range attacks. One user on here I think compared her to Dormammu from Marvel VS Capcom 3 and though I've never touched that game, I've seen footage of said character and I can see where that user is coming from.

 

[Shiliski]

Eh, I wouldn't say that newcomers with a learning curve is in any way a bad thing. As long as the controls are simple, the mechanics can be complicated.

I don't think any Smash character has been "too hard" to learn. Master, maybe, but not learn. Even Ness and Lucas with their "attack yourself to recover" mechanic isn't really that hard. Peach's hover is actually pretty easy to deal with. Probably the hardest to really do well with is PTrainer because you'd have to learn 3 different movesets... but even that isn't bad, given enough time.

I think if people can handle wavedashing, DACUS, SHFFL, and other ATs then a complicated character isn't bad.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I think almost all of the newcomers seem to have a ridiculous learning curve to them.
Megaman absolutely will take a long time to get the hang of with so many moves to control, and timing with Little Mac, as well as covering his aerial weakness, will take some good, good time.

I think the point of the newcomers is to make them difficult to learn, this round. Even Wii Fit Trainer will take a while to master with her Deep Breathing and health buff. These different world mechanic are what the strategy will be to competitively master smass this game. The characters are in fact THAT different.

 

[strawhatninja]

looks to be the hardest to learn, because you have to control Luma and spacing.

 

[SethTheMage]

I'm pretty much in agreement with everyone in this thread. The newcomers with high skill ceilings (namely Rosalina and Shulk) have me the most interested and look to me like they will add a lot of depth to the game in ways that Melee and Brawl didn't. I'm really glad that Sakurai is adding so many complex characters this time around. I'm the type of person who dedicates a lot of time and energy to mastering a character I like, and I don't stop until I do. I dedicated literally months of my time learning how to curve Pit's arrows in Brawl. I see the issue like this: the more high-technical characters there are that intrigue me, the longer the lifespan this game is going to have for me. I can't wait to begin learning how to space with Luma, or how to maximize the potential of Shulk's Monado stances.

I get the feeling that with an extremely large and diverse roster that is filled with so many complex characters, combined with the customizable movesets, this game will be very big in the competitive scene, despite its lack of Melee's fast-paced physics and ATs. It may not ultimately be as popular as Melee, but I'm certain it will be bigger than Brawl.

 

[Busterbie]

Good thing.
I believe the starter characters should be among the easiest to use. That's why they're starters.
The unlockables should have a higher learning curve as they require actual skill to be unlocked. It fits perfectly.

Weirdly enough, the japanese e-shop starting roster pic, have all revealed characters on it except lucina, who's a clone, and seems to be an easier marth XD

 

[Reila]

I believe you're simplifying things way too much.
It's all about depth vs. complexity.
Sakurai wants everything to be very simple and have very low barriers to entry. Shulk is very simple. Anyone could pick him up and know how to use all of his moves right away. Know how to do everything Shulk can do to manipulate spacing/ect. A "casual" isn't going to have a deep understanding of the character or know how to use the moves effectively, but there will be no point where they'll be saying "What was that?/How did you do that?" They'll know the move was a forward smash after changing to the speed mode. They'll know how to do that, they just might not ever think to use it effectively. This is a random, simple example, but basically they're never asking "......what was that?"

What Sakurai is against is a situation like you see with high level Melee play. Go watch any video of high level play. I'm not capable of moving like that. I don't know what to push, when. I don't know any of the timing. Dash dancing makes the game look glitchy to me, even though I know what it is, and know it's not a glitch.. He wants the difference in skill to be knowing how to use these "complicated" characters most effectively, not in using techs that are outside of the character's intended toolbox.

I'm trying to make this sound non-antagonistic. I think high level Melee play is fantastic for those interested. I have no negative view of the community at all! But I also completely understand Sakurai's vision, as someone who's played Smash for 15 years, considers himself "skilled," but has no idea how to do anything the pros do. High level Melee play doesn't even look like Smash to me, and all of my knowledge of Smash would be COMPLETELY useless in a competitive Melee environment.

This is the best post I have read here in months. The bold part in special is the reason I loathe watching or playing Melee competitively.

 

[BerryBomber]

I believe you're simplifying things way too much.
It's all about depth vs. complexity.
Sakurai wants everything to be very simple and have very low barriers to entry. Shulk is very simple. Anyone could pick him up and know how to use all of his moves right away. Know how to do everything Shulk can do to manipulate spacing/ect. A "casual" isn't going to have a deep understanding of the character or know how to use the moves effectively, but there will be no point where they'll be saying "What was that?/How did you do that?" They'll know the move was a forward smash after changing to the speed mode. They'll know how to do that, they just might not ever think to use it effectively. This is a random, simple example, but basically they're never asking "......what was that?"

What Sakurai is against is a situation like you see with high level Melee play. Go watch any video of high level play. I'm not capable of moving like that. I don't know what to push, when. I don't know any of the timing. Dash dancing makes the game look glitchy to me, even though I know what it is, and know it's not a glitch.. He wants the difference in skill to be knowing how to use these "complicated" characters most effectively, not in using techs that are outside of the character's intended toolbox.

I'm trying to make this sound non-antagonistic. I think high level Melee play is fantastic for those interested. I have no negative view of the community at all! But I also completely understand Sakurai's vision, as someone who's played Smash for 15 years, considers himself "skilled," but has no idea how to do anything the pros do. High level Melee play doesn't even look like Smash to me, and all of my knowledge of Smash would be COMPLETELY useless in a competitive Melee environment.

^This.

Ive had some good Melee memories but once I witnessed tourney players I was just shocked. But then again I was kid/tween then, a learning curve wasn't even concern to me. In high school I was just lucky most of my friends did not have a Wii to play Brawl, but man, EVERY day they came over to play Brawl!

It wasn't till we got universally accustomed to every character that we saw the benefit of the learning curve. That's when we starting whining all the time over Meta Knight, Kirby's and Pikachu's Down specials, and Sonic in general. (We always whined that Sonic players spam moves, but eventually we realized, oh hey, 50%+ of his moves are spin dash lol). This is when I truly saw the benefit of "mastering" a character. I stuck with Lucas, even won a local tournament with him! Zero Suit Samus was my other main.

Now im more excited than ever to try characters like Robin, Palutena and Shulk. With this game being geared for balance and easy to pick-up gameplay, I think becoming "masterful" with the high-gimmick character will be just as simple as non-gimmick fighters, so in the end, yes I think its a great thing!

 

[otter]

Take Seth from Street Fighter 4. While he has pretty much all of the other fighters moves, his low HP compared to most means that one fatal wrong move and BAM, your seth is dead!

However, when someone knows precisely how to manage someone like him...

SF4 has been out for 6 years, and despite it being known that he is unbeatable if played perfectly, Seth has never won a major tournament. The human factor will always be relevant. This is why characters with high learning curves are awesome. its more about giving players who like to study more stuff to do.

The average skill level of the community is going to plummet for awhile, combined with the lack of execution in smash 4/brawl, Im hoping learning rosalina will be enough to keep my attention.