Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Yoshi-Thomas]

While characters like Goku and Toad are being discussed, another challenger rises from the shadows.

Spoiler

 

[FunAtParties]

Again, all of the characters you mentioned are video game characters, not 4th party ones. Not to mention all of whom weren't even exclusive to rival companies and who's series had some connection to Nintendo before hand. Not that Sony/Microsoft characters are off limits (even though I doubt it).

Sakurai even mentioned Goku in the same breath as Spongebob so that should paint the differences clear as day lol.

That's my problem exactly.

Smash is a celebration of video gaming, not pop culture.

This right here is where we disconnect. You seem to think Smash Bros, as a series, has a definition written in stone. This is not the case. You can avoid mentioning Goku with all of those other names, but the principle stays the same, they all challenged what Smash was thought to be at the time and forced people to change their definition, as Sakurai often does.

Before Brawl came out, Smash was a Nintendo all-star game, and now it's a celebration of videogame history. Not that Goku and other 4th party characters haven't been part of videogame history, but my point stands. The next Smash could be (if Sakurai wanted it to be, and all the legalese is sorted out) a celebration of pop culture, forcing everyone to change their perspective on what Smash is to them yet again.

Would you sit here and be salty, not accepting the new route Smash Bros chose to go this time around, or would you be mad for like, a week, and then open your mind to the new possibilities? Maybe you're right, maybe adding 4th parties would be the straw that broke the camel's back, but it's still my belief that once the character is revealed, and Sakurai does the rounds explaining his new philosophy (which seriously guys, he changes his opinion all the time, y'all need to stop bringing up old stuff), that everyone would settle down and learn to love it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so, I've been around this scene for too long.

 

[MoveMan1]

Yeah, a celebration of videogame history that focuses on characters from Nintendo. if you're willing to make that claim, you better explain why Sakurai would put in Goku over a 2nd sonic character. Or is that suddenly too implausible for you, son?

 

[FunAtParties]

Yeah, a celebration of videogame history that focuses on characters from Nintendo. if you're willing to make that claim, you better explain why Sakurai would put in Goku over a 2nd sonic character. Or is that suddenly too implausible for you, son?

Don't call me son.

If you're gonna respond to my comments at least attempt to understand what I wrote before.

"Yeah a celebration of videogame history that focuses on characters from Nintendo"
I literally just said this can change. The focus has changed from Nintendo history, to Videogame history featuring important Nintendo games, to Videogame history with a large focus on Nintendo, in 2 games. You can pretend that this is what was intended all along, but as Smash gets bigger, the scope of what Sakurai wants to 'celebrate' seems to too.
It's has changed and probably will again. I'm not saying that's what I want, but y'all are acting like it's impossible.

As for your terrible example, I can easily justify Goku getting in over a 2nd Sonic character. He's a pop culture icon, they arguably aren't even videogame icons.

 

[MoveMan1]

Except smash bros 4 arguably only became a "celebration of videogame history" in it's DLC phrase, and even then because of Cloud getting in, and the only reason that even happened was a combo of a cameo in a kingdom hearts game on the GBA and Sakurai admitting that of all the square enix reps, Cloud was the most recognisable. Everything else had a pretty strong connection to Nintendo. A more accurate description would be "a celebration of Nintendo and Cloud is also there".

And besides, your entire theory boils down to "something unexpected happened last time, so something unexpected must happen in exactly the same way!"

 

[FunAtParties]

Except smash bros 4 arguably only became a "celebration of videogame history" in it's DLC phrase, and even then because of Cloud getting in, and the only reason that even happened was a combo of a cameo in a kingdom hearts game on the GBA and Sakurai admitting that of all the square enix reps, Cloud was the most recognisable. Everything else had a pretty strong connection to Nintendo. A more accurate description would be "a celebration of Nintendo and Cloud is also there".

And besides, your entire theory boils down to "something unexpected happened last time, so something unexpected must happen in exactly the same way!"

Then you're completely misunderstanding what I'm saying. It's not my theory that Goku is making it in the game, I never predicted he would or said its something Sakurai is going to do, I'm merely stating that if he did put him in people won't be as down on him as they're acting like right now, because they acting the same way before with other concepts, and flipped the switch immediately after said concepts were revealed.

 

[Ura]

This right here is where we disconnect. You seem to think Smash Bros, as a series, has a definition written in stone. This is not the case. You can avoid mentioning Goku with all of those other names, but the principle stays the same, they all challenged what Smash was thought to be at the time and forced people to change their definition, as Sakurai often does.

Before Brawl came out, Smash was a Nintendo all-star game, and now it's a celebration of videogame history. Not that Goku and other 4th party characters haven't been part of videogame history, but my point stands. The next Smash could be (if Sakurai wanted it to be, and all the legalese is sorted out) a celebration of pop culture, forcing everyone to change their perspective on what Smash is to them yet again.

Would you sit here and be salty, not accepting the new route Smash Bros chose to go this time around, or would you be mad for like, a week, and then open your mind to the new possibilities? Maybe you're right, maybe adding 4th parties would be the straw that broke the camel's back, but it's still my belief that once the character is revealed, and Sakurai does the rounds explaining his new philosophy (which seriously guys, he changes his opinion all the time, y'all need to stop bringing up old stuff), that everyone would settle down and learn to love it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so, I've been around this scene for too long.

Again, if you're going to sit here and try to convince me in any shape or form that Goku is comparable to any of the third party characters then you're fooling yourself only. Smash Bros being a game for Nintendo all stars was dropped in Melee when more niche characters got in. How characters from other video games joining Smash is similar to a non-video game character is beyond me.

And that's a bad argument because Smash fans will eat up any newcomer that's given to them provided said character isn't a clone. They might not like it at first but they eat it up anyways.

 

[FunAtParties]

And that's a bad argument because Smash fans will eat up any newcomer that's given to them provided said character isn't a clone. They might not like it at first but they eat it up anyways.

Ok so essentially what you're saying here is what I've been arguing the whole time. People will love Goku when revealed. So why are we arguing

 

[MoveMan1]

Fine. But that wouldn't happen, because Goku's inclusion would open a Pandora's box that would suck the hype out of Smash, at least for fan who are fans of smash first, and anime second..

You think Tail's inclusion is ridiculous, right? You probably scoff everytime you see a thread about his possible inclusion, and get a little mad (it's okay, we all get a little mad around here) everytime someone thinks he's more likely than the obscure-but-still-more-important character you like. Let's say it's Isaac just for an example.

Now imagine that not only was Tail's thread 100 times more popular, not only where similar threads everywhere, but threads like Isaac's or even Ice Climbers were laughed at because characters like Tails were far more likely.

Replace Tails with any anime or pop culture character and that's the future of smashboards spectulation after the Goku bomb. Pretty much every videogame character will be left to the wayside, as there is very little videogame characters that can stand up to the popularity of any oldschool, longstanding anime, or even ****ing Shrek and Spongebob. How the hell can we support stuff like Ice Climbers when they're clearly just going to give slots away to the mother*cking jojo refrences? Naruto is far more important to pop culture, how dare you suggest a mere videogame character get in?

Yes, Goku would bring in a lot of new fans to Smash. Smash doesn't NEED those fans, and those fans would take discusson in a direction a LOT of the current fanbase has absolutely NO INTEREST IN. This kind of thinking is what got us the Dante reboot. It's never going to be a good change for anyone who's more of a videogame fan than an anime fan. NEVER EVER SUGGEST OTHERWISE.

 

[FunAtParties]

Fine. But that wouldn't happen, because Goku's inclusion would open a Pandora's box that would suck the hype out of Smash, at least for fan who are fans of smash first, and anime second..

You think Tail's inclusion is ridiculous, right? You probably scoff everytime you see a thread about his possible inclusion, and get a little mad (it's okay, we all get a little mad around here) everytime someone thinks he's more likely than the obscure-but-still-more-important character you like. Let's say it's Isaac just for an example.

Now imagine that not only was Tail's thread 100 times more popular, not only where similar threads everywhere, but threads like Isaac's or even Ice Climbers were laughed at because characters like Tails were far more likely.

Replace Tails with any anime or pop culture character and that's the future of smashboards spectulation after the Goku bomb. Pretty much every videogame character will be left to the wayside, as there is very little videogame characters that can stand up to the popularity of any oldschool, longstanding anime, or even ****ing Shrek and Spongebob. How the hell can we support stuff like Ice Climbers when they're clearly just going to give slots away to the mother*cking jojo refrences? Naruto is far more important to pop culture, how dare you suggest a mere videogame character get in?

Yes, Goku would bring in a lot of new fans to Smash. Smash doesn't NEED those fans, and those fans would take discusson in a direction a LOT of the current fanbase has absolutely NO INTEREST IN. This kind of thinking is what got us the Dante reboot. It's never going to be a good change for anyone who's more of a videogame fan than an anime fan. NEVER EVER SUGGEST OTHERWISE.

No I don't think Tails inclusion is ridiculous. I'd love to see it.

That scenario you described already came and went. After Ryu's inclusion people flocked to every possible 3rd party, after being far more reserved before. There was threads for every fighting game character, and a big revolution in the way of thinking about including characters and everything. Guess what? It has already calmed down. I know you don't like comparing 3rd parties to 4th parties, but the point is a new realm of characters was allowed, and after a brief surge everything chilled out. Even if a few characters from 4th parties get noticed, people will still see this as a Nintendo game first. Your cataclysmic scenario is way overblown.

I also disagree with your last paragraph. You should be more willing to accept new people to your community.

 

[Ura]

Ok so essentially what you're saying here is what I've been arguing the whole time. People will love Goku when revealed. So why are we arguing

Because you said everyone is going to like Goku in the game.

While people might come to terms with it, they still don't have to like it even if the casuals go nuts for him.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honestly? 4th Party doesn't exist. It's just a silly term made up for 3rd Parties because they didn't come from a video game first.

Anyway, I wouldn't be all that bothered by Goku, but he's just another neat 3rd party.

Also, Smash stepped away from "Nintendo All-Stars" quite a long time ago. Sonic was indeed attempted to get into Melee, but there wasn't enough time, and I think Kojima asked about Snake as well before Melee released. The only reason was again, not enough time. Basically, the whole "All-Star" thing is at best only really for Smash 64. It wasn't important since then and the premise of the series does not indicate nor force the series to adhere to the old design. It evolved outright to include more stuff. And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[FunAtParties]

Because you said everyone is going to like Goku in the game.

While people might come to terms with it, they still don't have to like it even if the casuals go nuts for him.

Told you before and I'll say it again, never said everyone. Said most people. If you're going to start a 2 page long argument at least understand what you're arguing.

 

[Blue_Sword_Edge]

I really don't want Dragon Ball's Goku in. I can provide alternatives to that Goku that aren't in Smash (Ryu and Sean Schemmel's take on Lucario are in) and provide reasons for said alternatives rather than just making a complaint about it.

We have Chrono Trigger and the whole Dragon Quest franchise, both which feature Akira Toriyama's visual art style. As for characters, take your pick. Dragon Quest is very popular Japan and Chrono Trigger is a game from the SNES era that is considered a well beloved classic.

We also have Nintendo's take on Journey to the West called Yuyuki which has an actual monkey named Goku which stays closer to the source material than Dragon Ball does. He fits the "retro" picks Masahiro Sakurai likes to surprise people with at times.

 

[FunAtParties]

I really don't want Dragon Ball's Goku in. I can provide alternatives to that Goku that aren't in Smash (Ryu and Sean Schemmel's take on Lucario are in) and provide reasons for said alternatives rather than just making a complaint about it.

We have Chrono Trigger and the whole Dragon Quest franchise, both which feature Akira Toriyama's visual art style. As for characters, take your pick.

We also have Nintendo's take on Journey to the West called Yuyuki which has an actual monkey named Goku which stays closer to the source material than Dragon Ball does.

Id love that Lucario redesign tbh

 

[Ura]

Told you before and I'll say it again, never said everyone. Said most people. If you're going to start a 2 page long argument at least understand what you're arguing.

Yeah and I agreed in that the majority would be happy even though some wouldn't like it (like myself). You're the one that said that we were all going to like it.

In any case drop it because we're going in circles here. Lets just both pray that Smash Bros never see's any 4th parties okay?

Honestly? 4th Party doesn't exist. It's just a silly term made up for 3rd Parties because they didn't come from a video game first.

I know it's just a fan term for distinguishing 3rd party video game characters from non-video game characters.

 

[Deleted member]

I really don't want Dragon Ball's Goku in. I can provide alternatives to that Goku that aren't in Smash (Ryu and Sean Schemmel's take on Lucario are in) and provide reasons for said alternatives rather than just making a complaint about it.

We have Chrono Trigger and the whole Dragon Quest franchise, both which feature Akira Toriyama's visual art style. As for characters, take your pick. Dragon Quest is very popular Japan and Chrono Trigger is a game from the SNES era that is considered a well beloved classic.

We also have Nintendo's take on Journey to the West called Yuyuki which has an actual monkey named Goku which stays closer to the source material than Dragon Ball does. He fits the "retro" picks Masahiro Sakurai likes to surprise people with at times.

Goku may be controversial of a request, but to act as though people should accept "alternatives" based of very little correlation is in poor taste.
That's literally like telling the Ridley fans to just accept Charizard as an alternative because they're both fire-breathing dragons that can fly or to just accept Big the Cat as a character they should support instead just because they're both large and purple.

 

[MoveMan1]

No I don't think Tails inclusion is ridiculous. I'd love to see it.

That scenario you described already came and went. After Ryu's inclusion people flocked to every possible 3rd party, after being far more reserved before. There was threads for every fighting game character, and a big revolution in the way of thinking about including characters and everything. Guess what? It has already calmed down. I know you don't like comparing 3rd parties to 4th parties, but the point is a new realm of characters was allowed, and after a brief surge everything chilled out. Even if a few characters from 4th parties get noticed, people will still see this as a Nintendo game first. Your cataclysmic scenario is way overblown.

I also disagree with your last paragraph. You should be more willing to accept new people to your community.

FGC fans calm down. Anime fans NEVER calm down.

 

[Blue_Sword_Edge]

Goku may be controversial of a request, but to act as though people should accept "alternatives" based of very little correlation is in poor taste.
That's literally like telling the Ridley fans to just accept Charizard as an alternative because they're both fire-breathing dragons that can fly or to just accept Big the Cat as a character they should support instead just because they're both large and purple.

With me, even though my post you quoted may not show it, people really don't have to take my alternatives. It's a suggestion (which I need to work on my speech patterns at times.), nothing less, nothing more. I would be all for seeing Dragon Ball's Goku in another game with Jump stars in them.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I really don’t think “4th-parties” should make it into Smash, it’d really just dilute the brand to unrecognizability. Nintendo has the resources to make an anime fighting game if they please (in fact, didn’t they use to publish those Jump Stars game?)

Also, I must have missed why people aren’t talking about Ryu and Cloud like they broke some barrier. Like, what?

 

[Ura]

Also, I must have missed why people aren’t talking about Ryu and Cloud like they broke some barrier. Like, what?

I don't think they did. Most people just assumed that fighting game characters wouldn't be in the game or characters associated with the PS1 or whatever competitor system would never get in.

Although i'll admit that both Ryu and Cloud's inclusion caught me by surprise.

 

[Blue_Sword_Edge]

I really don’t think “4th-parties” should make it into Smash, it’d really just dilute the brand to unrecognizability. Nintendo has the resources to make an anime fighting game if they please (in fact, didn’t they use to publish those Jump Stars game?)

Also, I must have missed why people aren’t talking about Ryu and Cloud like they broke some barrier. Like, what?

People often associate Cloud with Sony since his debut game is on Playstation. From a more detailed analysis, he didn't really break that huge of a barrier. I have been 'd on this point.

With Ryu, he's from a vastly popular fighting game.

 

[Morbi]

To that end, I am not really sure Goku would break a barrier, per se. It is mostly just perception based.

 

[FunAtParties]

I really don’t think “4th-parties” should make it into Smash, it’d really just dilute the brand to unrecognizability. Nintendo has the resources to make an anime fighting game if they please (in fact, didn’t they use to publish those Jump Stars game?)

Also, I must have missed why people aren’t talking about Ryu and Cloud like they broke some barrier. Like, what?

Snake broke the third party barrier. The perception at the time was that 3rd parties weren't coming into Smsh, Snake's reveal changed that, and characters like Geno, Bomberman, and Mega Man's popularity took off afterwards (I would say Sonic, but he was popular regardless).

Before Ryu, there was this idea that fighting game characters wouldn't ever be in Smash based on a mistranslation. There was also an idea that each 3p company was only allowed one character. Ryu changed the perception on both, and character speculation adapted afterwards. Heihachi is a notable example of a character who gained some popularity after.

Before Cloud, the idea was that a character had to have a strong history with Nintendo to be in. After Cloud, people changed their mind, and started supporting any 3rd party as long as they're icons. Lara Croft is an example of this.

These aren't actual barriers to the game, it's fan-made barriers to character speculation.

 

[MoveMan1]

Lara Croft actually has some games on Nintendo. If what you said was truly accurate, Kratos would have a legit thread somewhere.

 

[FunAtParties]

Lara Croft actually has some games on Nintendo. If what you said was truly accurate, Kratos would have a legit thread somewhere.

Master Chief had one if that makes you feel better. Plus, Cloud showed up on Nintendo platforms before, but didn't have a strong presence just like Lara.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Lara Croft actually has some games on Nintendo. If what you said was truly accurate, Kratos would have a legit thread somewhere.

It's because nobody's made one. By the rules here, he is allowed to have a thread. Any 3rd party must simply originate in a video game to be allowed a thread here.

Master Chief also has a thread and got one before the reveal that his design(and Halo stuff) was put in the Switch version of Minecraft. So no, the "must have a Nintendo appearance" isn't an enforced rule here anymore(and for good reasons, as it simply stifled discussion and fun speculation at best), nor is it an actual rule by any means even with Sakurai(he's not even implied it to be the case. What he has said is he takes it into consideration, which simply just means how easy it is to license the character. Having previous games can vastly help).

 

[FunAtParties]

It's because nobody's made one. By the rules here, he is allowed to have a thread. Any 3rd party must simple originate in a video game to be allowed a thread here.

Master Chief also has a thread and got one before the reveal that his design(and Halo stuff) was put in the Switch version of Minecraft. So no, the "must have a Nintendo appearance" isn't an enforced rule here anymore(and for good reasons, as it simply stifled discussion and fun speculation at best), nor is it an actual rule by any means even with Sakurai(he's not even implied it to be the case. What he has said is he takes it into consideration, which simply just means how easy it is to license the character. Having previous games can vastly help).

Tbf what he's saying is that, if fan perception changed after Cloud, Kratos would have a thread, not that he can't.

 

[MoveMan1]

Master Chief had games on Nintendo before Microsoft nabbed Halo for themselves. People might say there are no rules, but they still smart enough to know actually being on the console at some time or another is hugely preferable to never being on it.

Hell, the reason Goku keeps coming up in the first places is because so many of his games can be found on Nintendo.

 

[FunAtParties]

Master Chief had games on Nintendo before Microsoft nabbed Halo for themselves. People might say there are no rules, but they still smart enough to know actually being on the console at some time or another is hugely preferable to never being on it.

Hell, the reason Goku keeps coming up in the first places is because so many of his games can be found on Nintendo.

Which games are those. For Master Chief I mean

 

[MoveMan1]

I'm sure Halo was ported on the gamecube before Microsoft bought them out.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Plenty of people still complain that Super Smash Flash 2 has Goku, Ichigo, and Naruto.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm sure Halo was ported on the gamecube before Microsoft bought them out.

Nope.

Halo has had zero games on Nintendo and still does not. It's just a few assets having a cameo in Minecraft, which is the first time Master Chief has made any kind of Nintendo appearance ever. There was talk of a Halo DS game at one point, but it fell through. That's the closest Halo ever got to a Nintendo system till the Minecraft update. Which was just some Microsoft-owned content being put in as assets, which included Banjo & Kazooie(as a nostalgia shout out to N64 fans) and the extremely popular Master Chief from Halo. ...I think there was a third character costume, but I honestly forgot.

 

[FunAtParties]

The only Halo that was ever supposed to be on Nintendo was the scrapped DS one. Outside of that Bungie was originally working with Apple who many expected to release their own console at the time, but Microsoft swept them up for their own console release. As Irene said, the only thing Halo has ever had on Nintendo is the Minecraft costume.

 

[StupendousMike]

How the hell is Goku post-Vegeta Saga going to fall off a ****ing ledge to his death?

How does Kirby? He can fly indefinitely in most of his games.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

How does Kirby? He can fly indefinitely in most of his games.

I know, and it bugs me.

 

[RouffWestie]

Are there any potential newcomers that could have any one or more of these traits somewhere in their moveset, based on moves from their own source material:

• Side Smash or Special that locks onto the opponent and traps them into a brief combo if it connects
  Spoiler: Example
• Directional throw that temporarily immobilizes the opponent a short distance away from you and lets you follow up with other attacks
  Spoiler: Example
• Any Special that launches a boomerang-like projectile a great distance away, paralyzing anyone it contacts on it's way back to you
  Spoiler: Example
• A projectile that is like Din's Fire, but doesn't cover as much distance and explodes faster.
  Spoiler: Example

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Real talk: Why are there people pairing Captain Toad with Wingo?

 

[Deleted member]

Real talk: Why are there people pairing Captain Toad with Wingo?

Gotta compensate for his inability to jump somwhow i suppose.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Yeah, but there's much better ways than a bird who, in their one appearance, looks to be as big as Ridley typically is.