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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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Misery Brick

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I feel like we use this sort of line of reasoning with third parties a bit too often. From what I understand, Sakurai doesn’t go ask for a representative from the company, he asks the company for approval on a specific character he wants in the game, and then works things out from there. And seriously, I doubt Sakurai going to any company and taking somebody he doesn’t want just because that’s what the company says they’ll allow.

He’s not going to just put in Master Chief or Steve because Microsoft says no way to Banjo, or Sora/Slime if Square turns down Geno for a more “important” rep. And honestly, neither company has any good reason to say no (Maybe Microsoft/Nintendo relations, but those are a whole different beast that we know nothing about).

Especially when he’s putting in a highly requested fan pick, that even he may want, I see little chance of him backing off for a more advertisable rep to that company.
I mean I definitely agree with you on that. Sakurai does go ask for approval on characters, as seen with Cloud, but it doesn't mean that the company wouldn't try to reason or negotiate for a different character.
(Again with SE, when they asked "Why Cloud?")
However even then, I feel that also that Sakurai would pull those characters that carry more fan appeal and iconography in the climate of games, as opposed to a niche and hardcore group of fans requesting one that the company itself feels apathetic towards. If a company wants him to put a character in, and Sakurai knows it's a popular character and would find interest in it, I'm sure he'd go along with the wishes of a wider majority.
Like look at Corrin, she was the promotional character for DLC that IS wanted to push despite his qualms and from his own words: "I personally felt that having too many Fire Emblem characters was a problem, but after talking it over with the development staff and discussing logistics, I felt certain that I could make them a fun character."
It is very possible that he may find a way to integrate them or there's the very real chance that he'd walk away without finalizing a deal.
I'm just saying every character has a fanbase, and given some may please a dedicated group of people, he may lean towards one that goes for a much wider majority and one that lines up with the IP holder's wishes. I'm not saying he won't try for those lesser characters, he definitely did with Geno and even Chocobo, but there's a very real possibility that they may not happen at all given talks for approval.
 

Captain Shades

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This is an interesting point, but I think you're putting a bit too much stock in that Nintendo has to cater to kids, and that is why Steve has a realistic shot of being in, in your mind. Presumably kids are going to already be interested because of all the classic Nintendo characters and the addition of Inkling, and maybe whatever new Pokemon gets added to the roster. A big part of the Switch's marketing so far has been geared towards adults in their 20s and 30s, which makes sense, because they're the ones with disposable income, and they're the majority demographic for it.

Meanwhile, and I know this will sound very condescending, kids' tastes are more fickle, while there are people who would have straight up not bought this game - hell, even bought a Switch - if K. Rool and Ridley were not in it. Most everything in this game has been geared towards longtime fans (especially those with mixed or outright negative feelings towards Smash 4), and most of those kids requesting Steve would play this game anyway. On the other hand, the backlash from this older community if Steve was playable instead of Banjo would be unfathomable.

Also, characters like Dark Samus and Chrom don't exactly have to do amazing on the ballot to get in. Just decently enough to be turned into a quick clone for fanservice. As an example, Chrom outright won a Tumblr poll, beating out even K. Rool.



Also, it's been established that Sakurai is a fan of Castlevania, but it actually isn't too farfetched that Simon did better on the ballot than previously thought. On a compilation chart of numerous polls, Simon was ranked in the top 20.

Ultimately, I'm not sure why it has to be "Steve should get in over Banjo so kids can have their fan favorite." If you think Steve should really be in, the case should be made that he can exist alongside the (hypothetical) roster, not displacing a fan favorite among Smash's target demographic.
To start, your point about Castlevania can actually help my argument as Sakurai is actually a fan of Minecraft saying that it’s one of the few titles he actually returns to.
https://sourcegaming.info/2018/02/2...mple-actions-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-535/

Plus, you also argue that kids or primarily casuals (Not all MC fans were kids, some were probably just regular people who didn’t follow Nintendo) would buy the game regardless, but doesn’t that work more for the general Smash community? If I’m not mistaken, many Smash fans have already said that they’ll buy the game regardless of what the Newcomers are. Even before the game got revealed, many said it could just be a straight port of Wii U and they’ll still purchase it. While I think pleasing fans is important, now that we K Rool, Simon, Ridley, Inklings, and Chrom, why shouldn’t the team include a more casual character that would be widely recognizable to today’s youth, encouraging them to pick up the game when they see him on the box. MC has millions of fans, so including Steve would be a good decision to draw in a new crowd for Smash.

My final point would be that there is a bigger picture to why 3rd parties are chosen, as I believe that the character needs to mean something. This of course varies as obviously bigger genres like Platformers are hard to find franchises that impacted it, while the Hack and Slash genre has like two faces in total, but you get the point. These characters either needed to pioneer something in their genre, perfect their genre, or be a gaming history character or a character that symbolizes a period in the gaming industry. To go through all;

Snake; A member of the action/stealth genre, while Metal Gear is basically the face of stealth games, Metal Gear is more recognized for really pushing story in games as many see Metal Gear’s story as the best video game take ever written, especially with 4. Metal Gear had a huge hand in making games more cinematic than ever and basically helped pioneer the new trend in action titles like the Last of Us where the focus is very heavy on story.

Sonic; A member of the platforming genre, Sonic greatly influenced 2D platforming as Sonic was more free than a Mario, having loops and hills, and very ‘organic’ level design. Sonic also represents the first ever console wars between Nintendo and Sega, giving him an edge in the history department.

Mega Man; He perfected the NES 2D platformer. Many will talk about how Mega Man perfected the genre and was a symbol for the NES with great level design and challenge, especially in the case of Mega Man 2.

Pac-Man; He is literally the face of arcade gaming, with many creators looking up to Pac-Man as an inspiration, such as Miyamoto. Pac-Man is a historical character through and though, so of course he had to be included.

Ryu; Pioneer and face of fighting games. Street Fighter, and primarily its sequel have become somewhat of the peak of fighting games with the only really notable competition being Mortal Kombat, so Ryu deserved his spot.

Cloud; Final Fantasy is the most main stream RPG out there and many follow in its foot steps, so it is a huge pioneer in the genre. With FF7 being the biggest game of the series, it was only natural to include Cloud.

Bayonetta; Probably the hardest to justify, but I would say Bayonetta is the perfectionist of the hack and slash genre. When it came to representing this genre, there were really only two choices, Dante and Bayonetta, so it really shouldn’t have mattered much, but most YouTube gaming channels, specifically the ones like Game Makers Tool Kit have pointed to Bayonetta as the front runner of the genre, as she took previously established mechanics and perfected them in a way while adding her own style. While she is niche, she earned her place for being the best in a popular but relatively small genre.

Going over that, I believe that Sakurai looks for 3rd parties based on something bigger than just popularity. The character needs to be the best, or the thing the best have taken from for years. 3rd parties are special as its a privilege to get in, or something you have to really earn, which is why I see Minecraft as there better pick. Minecraft is not only popular, but it’s a game that took the relatively niche genre of world building/ survival games and brought it into main stream popularity. It helped simplify a genre that was too complex for most to grasp, and made it accessible to even a 4 year old. MC is also really the gamble in its genre to perfect the gameplay, many try to emulate it but they make it too complex or boring, leaving MC to be the perfectionist of the genre.

If Microsoft is to get a rep, then I personally think Steve would be the choice as he is a gaming great up there with the rest. I also think he’s good because he represents a genre that isn’t the platformer, a genre that already has 4 members already, and if you include the big man himself, Mario, then that’s 5 platforming giants right there. The World Builder genre literally has no representation in Smash, and with Sakurai’s goal of representing gaming as a whole, wouldn’t it make more sense to have Steve as he takes on a genre not represented yet?

With one 3rd party slot left open on the base roster I think Steve should take it over Banjo, we need more genres to pop up and diversify the roster. I think Sakurai is going to slow down a little bit on platforming giants this time around to complete his goal, though I can see one more joining as DLC, though I think Rayman might actually beat out Banjo to that title as Rayman’s 3D platformers had a dark story added, something really only seen in Sony’s titles, he’s the only one besides DK to actually advance the 2D platformer in the modern era as most are just doing retro throwbacks to the NES, and the Rabbids titles that spawned from his series were some of the biggest party titles ever, rivaling the likes of Mario Party. (Which yes it still counts as he was in the first few titles, and really the downfall of the Rabbids leading to the Mario crossover was after Rayman departed) I don’t think Banjo is out of the realm of possibilities, but I feel that there are characters that are just more important than him.
 

Cap'n Jack

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Banjo represents the N64 better than any other character period. Name an original IP bigger than Banjo for that console? All others were either third party at the time or additional characters added to an already existing IP.

Banjo represents not only a sub genre in the 3DPlatforner in the collectathon, not only an entire console, but an entire relationship between Nintendo and 2nd Party developers Rareware
 

StormC

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Plus, you also argue that kids or primarily casuals (Not all MC fans were kids, some were probably just regular people who didn’t follow Nintendo) would buy the game regardless, but doesn’t that work more for the general Smash community? If I’m not mistaken, many Smash fans have already said that they’ll buy the game regardless of what the Newcomers are. Even before the game got revealed, many said it could just be a straight port of Wii U and they’ll still purchase it. While I think pleasing fans is important, now that we K Rool, Simon, Ridley, Inklings, and Chrom, why shouldn’t the team include a more casual character that would be widely recognizable to today’s youth, encouraging them to pick up the game when they see him on the box. MC has millions of fans, so including Steve would be a good decision to draw in a new crowd for Smash.
My point was that adults are more picky about their purchases than kids are. Adults have disposable income and many of these adults have been with the Smash series the whole way through, but also felt burned by Smash 4 and would not pick up the game unless they felt it was worth their money. Kids are not as picky about their choices, especially when it's not their money. I've seen many posts from longtime fans when, for example, Ridley got announced (not necessarily on Smashboards) saying "dang, I need a Switch now." That's the type of fans Sakurai wants to win over. Sure, maybe there's only 3000 people in the world, max, who would not buy Smash without K. Rool or Ridley or whatever, but Sakurai isn't really selling the game to them. By getting them in hype overdrive, their infectious enthusiasm will interest their friends and family on the fence, and then it snowballs from there.

I severely doubt there are many kids who are picky enough to say "I'm not buying this game without Steve in it." When I was 10 years old I sure as hell didn't care about who was on the Melee roster. Kids will be thrilled to see Mario, Link, Kirby, Pikachu, and everyone else in a game together. Plus Inkling is widely recognized by young Nintendo fans, Splatoon was insanely successful. Especially with third parties, pretty much every single one has been more about their legacy and history with older fans. We got Mega Man in Smash 4 instead of Monster Hunter because of the fact that he was iconic and beloved to older fans; I doubt many middle schoolers were playing Mega Man games when he was announced back in 2013.

Plus think of it this way; older fans can already play 4 games with the original characters in it. We need new ones to interest us. A kid who has this as their first Smash isn't going to care nearly as much.

My final point would be that there is a bigger picture to why 3rd parties are chosen, as I believe that the character needs to mean something. This of course varies as obviously bigger genres like Platformers are hard to find franchises that impacted it, while the Hack and Slash genre has like two faces in total, but you get the point. These characters either needed to pioneer something in their genre, perfect their genre, or be a gaming history character or a character that symbolizes a period in the gaming industry.

Going over that, I believe that Sakurai looks for 3rd parties based on something bigger than just popularity. The character needs to be the best, or the thing the best have taken from for years. 3rd parties are special as its a privilege to get in, or something you have to really earn, which is why I see Minecraft as there better pick. Minecraft is not only popular, but it’s a game that took the relatively niche genre of world building/ survival games and brought it into main stream popularity. It helped simplify a genre that was too complex for most to grasp, and made it accessible to even a 4 year old. MC is also really the gamble in its genre to perfect the gameplay, many try to emulate it but they make it too complex or boring, leaving MC to be the perfectionist of the genre.
I mean, you can believe that, I guess, but it's never been substantiated by something Sakuai has said or done. I notice you left Simon out of your list.

If Microsoft is to get a rep, then I personally think Steve would be the choice as he is a gaming great up there with the rest. I also think he’s good because he represents a genre that isn’t the platformer, a genre that already has 4 members already, and if you include the big man himself, Mario, then that’s 5 platforming giants right there. The World Builder genre literally has no representation in Smash, and with Sakurai’s goal of representing gaming as a whole, wouldn’t it make more sense to have Steve as he takes on a genre not represented yet?

With one 3rd party slot left open on the base roster I think Steve should take it over Banjo, we need more genres to pop up and diversify the roster. I think Sakurai is going to slow down a little bit on platforming giants this time around to complete his goal, though I can see one more joining as DLC, though I think Rayman might actually beat out Banjo to that title as Rayman’s 3D platformers had a dark story added, something really only seen in Sony’s titles, he’s the only one besides DK to actually advance the 2D platformer in the modern era as most are just doing retro throwbacks to the NES, and the Rabbids titles that spawned from his series were some of the biggest party titles ever, rivaling the likes of Mario Party. (Which yes it still counts as he was in the first few titles, and really the downfall of the Rabbids leading to the Mario crossover was after Rayman departed) I don’t think Banjo is out of the realm of possibilities, but I feel that there are characters that are just more important than him.
Who said there's only one third party slot left? Literally the first third party we got this game was from a platforming series, so I doubt Sakurai cares that much about diversifying through genre.

Personally, Banjo should be chosen because he was once a Nintendo character. The only reason people care about him at all is because of the games that were once on the Nintendo 64. It would be incredibly meaningful for longterm Nintendo fans to see him return to a Nintendo game. I'm not even opposed to Minecraft content; a Minecraft stage would be great, and frankly, probably represents the game better than a playable character. But if you think Steve should be in, great! I'm not sure why it has to be at the expense of Banjo, one of the most popular characters among Smash's core demographic.

A lot of time with your posts you seem insistent that kids need XYZ to buy the game, that those are the real demographic for these games, when it simply isn't true. Perhaps you feel it should be, but the reality is with a 20 year old series, it's smart to focus on your core fans. I don't think this game is totally alien or unapproachable to kids or newcomers; none of us had any idea who Ice Climbers or Marth were in Melee but we still played that game over and over.

Look at games like Breath Of The Wild and Super Mario Odyssey. Both went in a direction more suited to hardcore fans' tastes - while taking some risks - and both were insanely successful. BOTW is the highest selling Zelda ever, ditto Odyssey for the 3D Marios. I can definitely see Ultimate being the highest selling Smash game if everything lines up for it, and so far, they've been doing everything right.
 
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Iko MattOrr

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I don't care about Banjo & Kazooie or Steve from Minecraft, or even Master Chief, but if Microsoft is going to be involved in Smash, I want some Age of Empires representation... even just the priest as assist trophy doing "Wololooo" on the stage.
 

cybersai

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Nintendo is not going to rep any Microsoft rep, they are competitors. Banjo has a small possibility but even then I would never expect him.

How old are you guys? If you're at least in your mid-20's to 30's you guys should know how real life business works.
 

Graizen

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I found out something that could make Agumon more viable than I first thought... the series has made over 2 BILLION altogether counting gaming, anime and other franchising.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_media_franchises
Out of all the Bandai Franchises with a game based origin, Digimon is the third best grossing, losing only to PAC-MAN and Tamagotchi (which has such a little gaming prevalence outside of V-Pets compared to Digimon that i really can't see it, plus they don't fight like Digimon do.)

Digimon was also REALLY big in the nineties, much larger than even Tales of and Tekken are today, even now Agumon is a somewhat recognisable character, even if it's a bit less than it was years ago. The only problem is that Digimon's anime is the most well known part... even then it is a gaming series in some form and it fits the requirements to be a third party in Smash.
 

GoodGrief741

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Nintendo is not going to rep any Microsoft rep, they are competitors. Banjo has a small possibility but even then I would never expect him.

How old are you guys? If you're at least in your mid-20's to 30's you guys should know how real life business works.
Nintendo also collaborates with Microsoft heavily for Minecraft, even though it would probably be in Microsoft’s best interests if Minecraft were console exclusive to them, or at least if the ports weren’t heavily advertised.

Besides, getting a character like Master Chief could get a lot of Xbox fans to consider getting a Switch. And Banjo-Kazooie is an IP that Microsoft is doing absolutely nothing with, so it’d hardly be ‘aiding the competition’ to feature them in a game.

But hey, good business advice.
 

WingedSupernova

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Nintendo is not going to rep any Microsoft rep, they are competitors. Banjo has a small possibility but even then I would never expect him.

How old are you guys? If you're at least in your mid-20's to 30's you guys should know how real life business works.
I don't have to be old to understand how a business works. What I do understand though is that this version of Smash is operating based on a pattern and that pattern is getting as many fan favorites in the game as possible. Banjo has been requested since the original Smash 64 was released, and rightfully so since he is the character that made collect-a-thons such a fantastic genre. Banjo is showing up in some regard in this game.
 

StormC

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Nintendo is not going to rep any Microsoft rep, they are competitors. Banjo has a small possibility but even then I would never expect him.

How old are you guys? If you're at least in your mid-20's to 30's you guys should know how real life business works.
Being condescending doesn’t make you any less wrong, my friend.

I’m still waiting on Spider-Man to appear in the MCU. Too bad it won’t happen.
 
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Dalek_Kolt

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Now that Ridley and K. Rool are confirmed, here's my top five of who I want now.
1534634917074.png

Bonus third-party characters I want.
1534635073277.png
 

RileyXY1

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Nintendo also collaborates with Microsoft heavily for Minecraft, even though it would probably be in Microsoft’s best interests if Minecraft were console exclusive to them, or at least if the ports weren’t heavily advertised.

Besides, getting a character like Master Chief could get a lot of Xbox fans to consider getting a Switch. And Banjo-Kazooie is an IP that Microsoft is doing absolutely nothing with, so it’d hardly be ‘aiding the competition’ to feature them in a game.

But hey, good business advice.
The roster was decided in 2015, way before Nintendo and Microsoft started cooperating.
 

cybersai

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Banjo is showing up in some regard in this game.
You think he's definitely showing up in some regard? He'd either be playable or not appear, they wouldn't bother getting the rights for him just to make him an Assist or trophy. And I don't think he'll be playable.

Banjo isn't a third party character, he's now owned by Microsoft one of Nintendo's biggest competitors. Putting Minecraft on Switch isn't the same thing. It's the same reason Rare replay isn't on Switch. Rare just remastered Banjo-Kazooie/Tooie and many of their other old games and it's exclusive on Xbox, why do you think Microsoft won't allow them to port Rare replay to Switch? Or even put something like Sea of Thieves on Switch?

For the obvious reason that Microsoft wants them as console exclusives. Granted having said all that, if Banjo does appear it would be DLC, and is far less ridiculous than ever expecting Master Chief, a character never on a Nintendo console and the mascot of Xbox.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Let's be realistic; B&K are not a guarantee. Let's not pretend they are. They definitely are in a better position now that we know the ballot has a play in the choices, and fanservice is a major theme of this game(no, it isn't Heroes VS Villains. That's more of a coincidence, and honestly, how else could you introduce Ridley or K. Rool?), so they certainly have a decent chance to get in.

That still depends heavily on Microsoft itself saying yes, not one CEO's opinion, which doesn't guarantee much of anything. Sakurai and Nintendo still need to be up for it. That matters. Considering how easily Minecraft has been getting games, etc. it shows it was already in a better position for some content(may or may not be a playable character. Besides that, Master Chief's Nintendo cameo also took place well after the 2015 character planning, so if he were to get in, it'd have nothing to do with some silly Nintendo appearance rule... which isn't even a guideline, just a courtesy, it'd be clearly because he's a gaming icon).

I honestly think they could show up, but they're no shoo-in by any means. With how credible Verg is looking, I wouldn't really consider anything but Minecraft content a shoo-in right now at best. The fact we have a Minecraft-themed 3DS shows that the chances of it being an issue to get that content are very very unlikely. For all we know, the 3DS was part of the whole deal to get Minecraft content in. Or part of why we got Halo content in Minecraft Switch.
 

GoodGrief741

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The roster was decided in 2015, way before Nintendo and Microsoft started cooperating.
Minecraft was on Nintendo consoles already by the end of that year, and let’s not act like that’s not already a massive step forward in collaboration. Can anyone imagine Sega putting, say, Virtua Fighter on a Nintendo console while they were direct competitors?

Also, even if we didn’t have evidence that two companies were not collaborating doesn’t mean they were not. They’re clearly buddy-buddy now, and there’s not much that changed between 2015 and now, so the possibility exists that they were open to deals back then. And there’s also the possibility that, like Sonic, Banjo could be dealt later on in the development cycle.

Of course, none of this matters, because just the idea that two competing companies cannot cooperate because it’s poor business sense is stupid and has already been disproven.
 

Fane

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So since the last direct I've revised my remaining character predictions.

Unique Newcomers:
-Skull Kid
-Geno
-Isaac
-Gen 7 Pokemon
-(Possibly) Rhythm Heaven Rep

Echo Fighters:
-Isabelle (Villager)
-Dixie Kong (Diddy Kong)
-Shadow (Sonic)
-Impa (Sheik)

The way I've taken Sakurai's words on 'I hope you're not expecting too many new fighters' refers to unique newcomers themselves and NOT Echo Fighters.

My reasoning for this is because if he were counting Echo Fighters with this, he wouldn't have outright revealed 5 characters in the most recent direct. So my guesses would leave the total unique newcomer character count at 9. That's less than any other entry in the Smash Bros. series. If you include Echoes, that would put the number up to... 17. Which is one less than Brawl, three more than Melee, the same as Wii U/3DS w/o DLC and four less including DLC.

17 may seem like a LOT, but we'd have to remember than 8 of them would require SIGNIFICANTLY less work than a standard fighter. They have their movesets already made. All that would be needed done is some animation work and modelling. If they focused more time on new unique fighters rather than pumping out Echoes we'd probably could've gotten an extra one or two based on how much work the other remaining Echoes required. Which would've still left a smaller total of newcomers. They likely went in the direction of Echoes this time to effectively give us more newcomers with less effort than we would've actually gotten, which is a really smart play.

In the direction of my guessed unique Newcomers, here's my reasonings, and obviously the Ballot seems to have a very large impact on the newcomers:

Skull Kid
One of the most popular requested fighters from the LoZ series along with Midna and Ghirahim. Both of which are confirmed to return as Assists. Now let's look at Skull Kid without the conspiracies of furniture and figure displays. What points towards his inclusion?

1) The Moon as an assist. A lot of people brush this off. The thing is, why have the Moon as an assist along with Skull Kid? That's two assists from the same exact game. Sure, they could easily remove Skull Kid as an assist, but why? This game is built off of Wii U, so porting over the assists from that game should be no problem, and surely removing a popular character like Skull Kid in favor of bringing in the Moon isn't a smart choice.
2) Majora's Mask on 3DS. This was released around the same time the final roster was decided. The return of a very popular LoZ game with one of the most iconic villains in the series at the same time the roster was concluded? It's the perfect opportunity to include Skull Kid as a playable fighter, especially with the return of Young Link himself.

Geno
At first, I was skeptical. Why include a character with no relevancy or recent appearances in favor of someone with a more recent appearance? Then we got the last Direct. King K. Rool as a fighter, Chrom, Dark Samus, and the Belmonts. This game is heavily catering towards the fans and what we want. Geno has had lasting and high popularity since Brawl after Sakurai's remarks on wanting his inclusion. Then another piece of evidence I think points towards his inclusion, strangely enough, is the lack of Final Fantasy music again. Perhaps Sakurai took a gamble and requested Geno as a playable fighter from Square Enix in exchange for nothing new for the Final Fantasy series. No new stage, items, assists, or music. This speaks to me because the outcry for more Final Fantasy music was at a large! You'd think Sakurai would've at least scored a song or two. Perhaps he settled for a better option which would satisfy not only himself, but a large portion of the fanbase.

Isaac
Golden Sun hasn't been relevant for a long time, but Isaac's popularity is still at a large just like Geno's. With the removal of his assist from Brawl > Wii U/3DS, there's little reason to have it return. To me, it seems likely that due to his high demand, Sakurai may actually pull through this time and make him playable. After all, it's probably VERY likely he did exceptionally well in the ballot. Then we got the little reference with the Rathalos picture, but why reference Golden Sun in particular with those characters? It's not been relevant in a long time! Why not reference Monster Hunter itself, or even something like Xenoblade, LoZ, or Fire Emblem due to the characters represented? To me, it seems like a hint towards his inclusion.

Gen 7 Pokemon
We always seem to get a new Pokemon fighter in each entry that relates to the most recent generation. Sun and Moon released in 2016 and had likely gone into development before OR/AS released in 2014, and possibly even after X/Y released in 2013. I'm almost certain we'll see a new stage and fighter representing this new set of Pokemon games. After all, we've already got a sick remix of the Trainer Battle theme from Sun and Moon, and a plethora of new Pokemon in Poke Balls. The only question is: What will it be? Popular picks from the community are Decidueye and Lycanroc, and a leak mentiones Incineroar. We simply won't know until it's revealed either way.

Rhythm Heaven Rep
This is SOLELY if Sakurai revisits the scrapped Rhythm Heaven character from Sm4sh. We know there was one planned.(Likely Chorus Kids) The only thing I'm skeptical about here is if Sakurai would return to that character for Ultimate. Considering he's gotten plans for the moveset and everything down already, it should be much simpler to finish than the rest of the newcomers. Rhythm Heaven is DEFINITELY popular enough to warrant playable representation in the game, I'd be shocked if yet again it doesn't make the cut.

And if we're to have at least two more directs.(One theorized for TGS and one in November) Then we'd likely get 4 character reveals in one(2 Echoes, 2 Newcomers) and 5 in the last one.(2 Echoes, 3 Newcomers)

E3 revealed a majority of the roster as well as an Echo and a unique Newcomer. August's direct featured 3 Echoes and 2 Newcomers. My guess, if I am accurate, the next reveal would likely include: Skull Kid, Gen 7 Pokemon as the newcomers. Isabelle and Dixie Kong as the Echoes. After that we'd just get the rest of the fighters for the 'final reveal before release'. We'd probably get a teaser of DLC then too.
 
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RileyXY1

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Minecraft was on Nintendo consoles already by the end of that year, and let’s not act like that’s not already a massive step forward in collaboration. Can anyone imagine Sega putting, say, Virtua Fighter on a Nintendo console while they were direct competitors?

Also, even if we didn’t have evidence that two companies were not collaborating doesn’t mean they were not. They’re clearly buddy-buddy now, and there’s not much that changed between 2015 and now, so the possibility exists that they were open to deals back then. And there’s also the possibility that, like Sonic, Banjo could be dealt later on in the development cycle.

Of course, none of this matters, because just the idea that two competing companies cannot cooperate because it’s poor business sense is stupid and has already been disproven.
So far, Nintendo and Microsoft have only cooperated with Minecraft, a game that was already multi platform.
 

Cap'n Jack

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Considering Microsoft has licensed Banjo and Kazooie before to Nintendo, and they are currently not using them right now. It does not seem that far-fetched from a business point of view. Why turn down easy money if you’re Microsoft? There are currently no Banjo games in production according to Gregg, so why would you be withholding the IP? Just to spite Nintendo? It’s not remotely the same as Nintendo licensing Mario to Microsoft because Mario is an actively profitable venture.
 

Opossum

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Did he say trash it afterwards?
It was in relation to a fake leak. He said to trash it because it didn't have Ken.

In other words, Vergeben is saying Ken is in, and that any leak without him should be trashed if it's claiming to be the full roster.
 

Jakenimbus

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I think the most likely additions to smash at this point in terms of new characters are a new pokemon (Hopefully from gen 7), Skull kid, Issac, and Geno. Everyone else that would be added I would assume is an echo fighter, because we were told that we weren't getting too many more new characters.
 

AquaSol

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I'd be a bit disappointed in Ken is in, to be honest. He's the easiest and most obvious Ryu echo, but it would be cool to have Akuma even if it wouldn't make 100% sense.

Anyway, for echoes, I'm beginning to think that Black Knight has a chance. On GameFaqs, someone posted a picture of a Red Knight on Castle Siege where the Black Knight was before. It's from Richter's character profile on the website, I think. Even without this, Black Knight isn't too out there. Personally, I can't get behind it. I was honestly kind of hype for Chrom - Awakening was my first Fire Emblem and it was weird to have Robin and Lucina in without him. But having eight Fire Emblem characters is just too much, especially after considering that Zelda may end up with the same amount (assuming we get Skull Kid). So we'd have Marth, who is the base for Lucina and most of Roy, who is the base for Chrom, who also shares moves with Ike, who is the base for Black Knight.....LOL.

Edit: I can't count. Zelda would end up with less than Fire Emblem, which is an even bigger issue to me.
 
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Jakenimbus

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I'd be a bit disappointed in Ken is in, to be honest. He's the easiest and most obvious Ryu echo, but it would be cool to have Akuma even if it wouldn't make 100% sense.

Anyway, for echoes, I'm beginning to think that Black Knight has a chance. On GameFaqs, someone posted a picture of a Red Knight on Castle Siege where the Black Knight was before. It's from Richter's character profile on the website, I think. Even without this, Black Knight isn't too out there. Personally, I can't get behind it. I was honestly kind of hype for Chrom - Awakening was my first Fire Emblem and it was weird to have Robin and Lucina in without him. But having eight Fire Emblem characters is just too much, especially after considering that Zelda may end up with the same amount (assuming we get Skull Kid). So we'd have Marth, who is the base for Lucina and most of Roy, who is the base for Chrom, who also shares moves with Ike, who is the base for Black Knight.....LOL.

Edit: I can't count. Zelda would end up with less than Fire Emblem, which is an even bigger issue to me.
I personally have played both games and fire emblem has way more characters than the legend of zelda series. Besides, half the zelda characters are just your generic townspeople and would suck in a fighting game. In fire emblem, all the characters are designed for combat. The problem with fire emblem is that they add too many of the same type of characters from fire emblem. It would be interesting if they brought over like a pegasus knight or a horsemen instead of swordsman.
 

Fastblade5035

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In regards to BK, I summed up my posts from the BK thread here and the new Gamefaqs find
BK SMASH.png
 

Opossum

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I'd be a bit disappointed in Ken is in, to be honest. He's the easiest and most obvious Ryu echo, but it would be cool to have Akuma even if it wouldn't make 100% sense.

Anyway, for echoes, I'm beginning to think that Black Knight has a chance. On GameFaqs, someone posted a picture of a Red Knight on Castle Siege where the Black Knight was before. It's from Richter's character profile on the website, I think. Even without this, Black Knight isn't too out there. Personally, I can't get behind it. I was honestly kind of hype for Chrom - Awakening was my first Fire Emblem and it was weird to have Robin and Lucina in without him. But having eight Fire Emblem characters is just too much, especially after considering that Zelda may end up with the same amount (assuming we get Skull Kid). So we'd have Marth, who is the base for Lucina and most of Roy, who is the base for Chrom, who also shares moves with Ike, who is the base for Black Knight.....LOL.

Edit: I can't count. Zelda would end up with less than Fire Emblem, which is an even bigger issue to me.
The Black Knight was never in the background of Castle Siege. That was the generic Tellius General model.
 

AquaSol

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I personally have played both games and fire emblem has way more characters than the legend of zelda series. Besides, half the zelda characters are just your generic townspeople and would suck in a fighting game. In fire emblem, all the characters are designed for combat. The problem with fire emblem is that they add too many of the same type of characters from fire emblem. It would be interesting if they brought over like a pegasus knight or a horsemen instead of swordsman.
Yea, I totally get why Fire Emblem works for echoes and playable characters in general, and I totally agree on getting a different class for once. I've always wanted a mounted character, and a Pegasus/Wyvern rider would be so cool to see.
 

Baddies are back

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In regards to BK, I summed up my posts from the BK thread here and the new Gamefaqs find
just want to say a quick thing about the red knight, very possible that's still the black knight as
Black Knight, aka Zelgius, wears red armor as seen here
Zelgius_(FE10_Artwork).png
so it could very well still be a black knight reference.

anyways, I want to give my thoughts on rhythm heaven. I don't think a fighter would represent the series well at all, a stage, items, and an assist trophy would over all reference the series better than a fighter ever could.
 

LetterO

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anyways, I want to give my thoughts on rhythm heaven. I don't think a fighter would represent the series well at all, a stage, items, and an assist trophy would over all reference the series better than a fighter ever could.
Karate Joe has appeared in every game and is a mascot who can pretty easily inspire most of his moves on the many rhythm games in the franchise's entries.

Chorus Kids are also pretty popular and were most likely scrapped in Smash 4 (I believe the Gematsu leak, and think the scrapped RH character that was datamined is Chorus Kids), and also most likely already had most if not all of their moveset (which would also probably inspire their moves based on other rhythm games) finalized. With the trend of Sakurai returning to old ideas (Ditto. Chrom, etc.), I think they have the biggest shot.

There's also the two less major but also pretty notable Marshal and Tibby.
 
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PurpleStuff5

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I have a feeling that Black Knight will get in as an Echo, and that we'll have Lloyd also. It's the playable DLC Mii costumes party!
As much as I like Black Knight as a character, it's hard to imagine him as an echo of a semi-heavy character. The imposition of his armor is such a central aspect of his character. I remember the feeling of dread that followed the slow but steady clank of his armor in Path of Radiance. It's hard to imagine him bending the way Ike does to pull of his aerial moves, lol.
 

Fane

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Edit: I can't count. Zelda would end up with less than Fire Emblem, which is an even bigger issue to me.
It's a nice thing to remember that in the grand scheme of things there are truly only 5 unique Fire Emblem reps being Marth, Roy, Ike, Robin, and Corrin.

Lucina/Chrom are echoes of Marth/Roy, which funnily enough, over half the Fire Emblem roster has their moveset derived from Marth specifically.

Then again, LoZ has 3 Links and a semi-clone from F-Zero.

At least with Ultimate it seems heavily implied that we'll be seeing Skull Kid.
 

Crank4Smash

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Any thoughts on the Alolan Pokemon Trainers (Sun and Moon) making it into the roster? The starters are no where to be seen as far as I'm aware, and some of the alts referencing other Pokemon protagonists aren't with Red and Green. (Lyra, Dawn, and Serena for Moon and Brendan, Hilbert, for Sun along with his Ultra Sun re-design color scheme.)

If they were to make it in, based off of Vergeben's statement about the Gen 7 Pokemon I believe the lineup would go like this:

Rowlet ---> Brionne ---> Incineroar.
 

Guybrush20X6

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Any thoughts on the Alolan Pokemon Trainers (Sun and Moon) making it into the roster? The starters are no where to be seen as far as I'm aware, and some of the alts referencing other Pokemon protagonists aren't with Red and Green. (Lyra, Dawn, and Serena for Moon and Brendan, Hilbert, for Sun along with his Ultra Sun re-design color scheme.)

If they were to make it in, based off of Vergeben's statement about the Gen 7 Pokemon I believe the lineup would go like this:

Rowlet ---> Brionne ---> Incineroar.
Pokemon is a tricky series to predict as even though Fire Emblem gets an new cast each time, they always have a focal character.

Pokemon on the other hand can have any number of the 50-156 characters they introduce each generation. As I see it, we can break them down as such

Pikachu & Pichu: Mascot type
Jigglypuff & Lucario: Anime featured type
Mewtwo: end game boss type
Pokemon Trainer/Greninja: Starter Type

In fact, we know Sakurai picked out Greninja from concept art because it looked cool so this time we're even down to Pokemon that just look like they've got smash moveset potential.

As for Alolan Pokemon Trainer, I can't quite see the player trainers as Leaf has an Ultra Sun & Moon color scheme but there is a person who could.

The game's ultimate challenge: Professor Kukui!
It's been long enough that I can spoil but if you were wondering who got the super effective starter to yours, then look back on Gen 1 theories and realise they were playing the long game. It also ties into the anime as Professor Kukui under the persona of the Masked Royal uses Incenaroar as his main Pokemon.
 

Draugen

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As much as I like Black Knight as a character, it's hard to imagine him as an echo of a semi-heavy character. The imposition of his armor is such a central aspect of his character. I remember the feeling of dread that followed the slow but steady clank of his armor in Path of Radiance. It's hard to imagine him bending the way Ike does to pull of his aerial moves, lol.
My only hope to have him as an Echo is that he will probably not be in as an original character. Since we'll have less newcomers, that's his best chance.
 
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