Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Mrs.Milky]

Main:

Secondary:

Most wanted:
Ashley- she's adorable and we need more magic users oofy plus her popularity
Zero(from megaman)- lol I just really like him and I feel he'd make a great addition, hopefully that mii fighter costume meant something

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I'll try my hand at the 4chan/Reddit card format that I've seen going around.

Main:
Shulk (I will probably switch to Ridley though)

Secondary:
Pac-Man
Zero Suit Samus

Most Wanted:
King K. Rool
Geno
Isaac
Ashley
(So, yeah, my signature characters)

Least Wanted:
Springman (I'm cool with an ARMS rep, I just don't particularly like him as that choice)
Sans
Steve (Just about the only character option I genuinely despise)
Echo fighters for the sake of Echo fighters that ruin a newcomer's potential (Dixie Kong or Impa as Echo fighters for example)

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-ultimate-discussion.434391/post-22216417

Another vergeben thing correct

I'm 99% confident in Simon Belmont now
(1% just in case it's gemusatu scenario again)

And vergeben also said at miminum 6 newcomers (unknown identities) and Ridley and daisy inklings are excluded ofcoarse

So atleast 6 more as well

 

[Idon]

https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-ultimate-discussion.434391/post-22216417

Another vergeben thing correct

I'm 99% confident in Simon Belmont now
(1% just in case it's gemusatu scenario again)

And vergeben also said at miminum 6 newcomers (unknown identities) and Ridley and daisy inklings are excluded ofcoarse

So atleast 6 more as well

Everyone knew that within the first week of DBFZ. It's not a point towars Verge by any means.

 

[Misery Brick]

I'll do the format for fun.

Mains:


Secondaries:
ultpokemontrainer:

Most Wanted Newcomers:
Chorus Kids - I think it's about time for some Rhythm Heaven representation outside of trophies and the Sneaky Spirits in Smash Run. I love the idea of these guys fighting as a trio altogether, unlike say Red or the Ice Climbers, and having a rhythm based moveset. Also I'm here for ANY RH character.

Ashley - We don't exactly have any magic based moveset outside of Zelda and Robin, and I feel she would greatly fulfill another side of that. Also given Warioware only consists, of well Wario, she'd make a welcome and nice inclusion into the roster. Also like an RH rep, she'd allow us to see more of Ko Takeuchi's artstyle so I'm down.

Ayumi Tachibana - She represents a type of game that we haven't seen in Smash yet at all, the horror genre. The only one that can arguably be considered that would be Metroid, but is more focused on exploration and action than horror. She comes from what is generally considered a classic Famicom game and could use an interesting and unconventional moveset like Pheonix Wright in UMvC3 or one based off the mechanics of her own game. Sakurai did say that she was going to join Melee but considered against it, however given the niche and history she provides, She'd fit right at home in the roster as a retro rep.

Morrigan Aensland - A pipe dream, personal pick, and only if we don't receive someone like Chun Li or Ken Masters first, given they would probably be easier to implement and already have their series in Smash. I would only personally want her because outside of Ryu, and just maybe Zero, she represents crossovers for Capcom more than she does Darkstalkers. And I think it'd be really neat to see her join given how much Capcom loves pushing her and how iconic her appearance and outfit is. (Also the whole "too sexy/provocative" thing was kinda thrown out with ZSS and Bayonetta in Smash 4)

Least Wanted Newcomers:
Chrom (As an Ike Echo) - As much as I love Fire Emblem and how it's gotten the chance to feature so many characters in it's roster, I don't want Chrom as a clone. After all, the series already holds two of the them based off one character, Lucina and Roy, and he would cause a visual conflict given both him and his daughter share Falchion, especially if he wields it like Ragnell.

Shadow the Hedgehog - I'd honestly prefer if they added Tails in as a character as opposed to him, given he's the P2 to Sonic. And even then, Shadow isn't as important to his history outside of SA2 and the fact he's been playable a few times. If anything, I'd prefer Metal Sonic as the Echo fighter given he predates Shadow and has more of a villanous role, which Smash desperately needs.

Steve - I don't have too much to say on him aside from the fact that I wouldn't mind him as an AT or background element, otherwise there's more iconic Microsoft reps to choose from.

Shovel Knight - Now, I don't hate the idea of his inclusion, it'd be great given the fact he kinda became the poster child for all indie games! It's just I don't think he's as prevalent in video game history yet, and especially considering Nintendo's own history. If we got an indie character, I'd honestly prefer Shantae as she predates a lot of iconic indie characters as her first game was on the GBC, and one of the last for that system, before continuing on the GBA. I think Shovel Knight would be neat, but not before someone like Shantae who has more of a history within gaming.

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

Mains:
Secondaries:
Hoping to pick up:

Most wanted:​

Isaac: Golden Sun could be a breakout series in the way Fire Emblem and Xenoblade are, but it's too infrequent to ever make it in time for promotion from Smash, and it's a shame. Isaac has too strong of moveset potential and too much potential series interest to let it all die as it's seeming to be destined to right now. This ballot may be the best chance he ever gets.

Banjo & Kazooie: A set of goofy characters with even more unfortunate history. They were taken away from their source of success and left to die under a company they could never really jell with. Bringing them in to reunite with their old family just feels right.

Alm: I was one of those who had a ton of fun with SoV, and Alm may seem like a bland Marth-esque protagonist at first glance, but he fights for his country not because of some obligation as a royal leader, but because nobody else was going to step up. With the great voice acting and family/partner struggles, IS made Alm a very human character and he's one of my favs in all of FE. I'd love to see him as an Echo fighter.

Lloyd Irving: He's got a very fun moveset waiting to happen and he had a pretty charming personality that was multi-faceted. Once I saw that Mii costume, I started to wonder if maybe the days of settling for him in Smash Flash 2 could be over.

Elma: Love her design, love her dual weapon mechanic. Love X's soundtrack. Love having more Xenoblade representation. Really into having her join the roster.

 

[Jack Donut]

Keep in mind these are all in my personal want list:
Rayman (Rayman Series)
Sans (Undertale)
Waluigi (Mario Spinoffs) (I still have hope)
Tails (Sonic The Hedgehog Series)
King K. Rool (Donkey Kong series)
Dixie Kong (Donkey Kong Series)
Crash Bandicoot (Crash Bandicoot Series)
Banjo-Kazooie (Banjo-Kazooie Series)
Shovel Knight (Shovel Knight)

 

[Ze Diglett]

Eh, why not? I'll try out this hip, new format.

Mains:


Secondaries:


Hoping to Try Out:


Most Wanted (Realistic) Newcomers:
Geno (Dream pick; instant main if he gets in)
Bandanna Dee (To complete the Kirby quartet, and that Spear is just too much fun)
Decidueye (Avian archer, too cool! Also my new favorite starter line)
King K. Rool (For the fans; if Ridley fans got their wish, K. Rool and Geno fans deserve theirs, too!)

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

This should bring some interest

It's a listening thing but I will say it anyway

Don't blink

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=thehPvqow1I&feature=youtu.be&t=291

Possible slip up of a second xenoblade character

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I have a question regarding Echo fighters, specifically the Octolings and Ninten, what's the benefit of having these characters be Echo fighters as opposed to costumes for their respective characters?

I'm not trying to criticize anyone for their picks with regards to these characters. I've just seen them on a lot of lists with people sort of just saying they make sense as the reasoning for these Echoes. Which always feels like hollow reasoning to me, characters being included as Echo fighters just cause they can be feels really weird as an idea. I would expect newer Echo characters to follow Daisy in being notable names that may have larger fan bases, but not enough move set potential on their own to justify a full on semi-clone or unique character.

Octolings feel especially weird given that they just end up using the same weapons as the Inklings in Splatoon at the end of the day, and also didn't relaly have support til Octo Expansion (Thus falling into the after-March Nintendo Direct hype train that a handful of characters have come from, specifically Sans and Crash).

Ninten is at least his own character I'll concede, but he just looks so similar to Ness at the end of the day and I had never even heard him as a Smash candidate pick until the Echo concept was revealed.

These characters seem to just be on a different tier level compared to the likes of Shadow, Dark Samus, and even Funky Kong (Though he too benefits from the Funky Mode shenanigans early this year). These are names I had seen thrown around much more frequently prior to Echo reveals. Which is why I tend to lean towards them being the more likely Echo characters Sakurai would have picked earlier on in the process, despite the fact I think all three of them are better suited with being more than just an Echo...

I don't know, this is just the way I see it. Echo characters are kind of in a weird space in we don't really know HOW much they can differentiate from the base character other than the physical design acting as a base. How do you all see these characters? I'm very curious to see if my observation of things holds up to other people's observations. I have no problems with them as Echo fighters or as their own characters, I just don't know how much evidence I see towards their inclusion.

 

[toonito]

Main:

Secondary:

Trying Out:

Most Wanted: Ken Masters (my fav SF character and I feel like most of the 1st party characters I want are already in)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My updated guesses for Ultimate are:

Dixie Kong: cut from Brawl and 1st party characters scrapped from a game seem to make it in eventually

Mach Rider: retro pick for Ultimate a bit iffy on him because Sakurai liked him enough to consider him for Melee yet Sakurai liking a character doesn't guarantee a slot so whatevs

Geno: Sakurai's liked him since Brawl and a 2nd Square Enix rep but again not a guarantee

Rhythm Heaven character: scrapped from Wii U version so possible newcomer

Heihachi/Jin (Tekken)/Namco rep: Heihachi was considered for Wii U but Sakurai had difficulty designing a moveset for him; Jin might be easier, if not then a 2nd Namco rep.

Gen 7 Pokemon: A Pokemon from the newest gen at the time of release has been introduced in every Smash game thus far. May be a starter since at least 1 starter has been introduced in all Smash games except for Melee. Also may be more than 1 since every game but Wii U had multiple pokemon.

64: Pikachu (starter in Yellow), Jigglypuff
Melee: Pichu (baby from most recent gen at the time), Mewtwo (legendary)
Brawl: Squirtle (1st stage starter), Ivysaur (2nd stage starter), Charizard (fully evolved starter), Lucario (most recent gen at the time)
3DS/Wii U: Greninja (fully evolved starter from most recent gen)

Possible candidates: Incineroar, Primarina, Decidueye, Mimikyu, Lycanroc, Silvally, the Tapus, Necrozma


Fire Emblem character (Teacher aka Byleth?): Since Melee, a Fire Emblem character from a main series game has been introduced in each Smash game thus far. If not in base roster then a 3 Houses character may be saved for DLC ala Corrin.

Dark Samus: only because of her alt not appearing with Samus. Not appearing as an Assist Trophy yet doesn't always guarantee a character to be playable if that were the case Isaac of Golden Sun would've been playable at some point during 3DS/Wii U. This is the reason I'm not fully on the Shadow for Smash train. Of course, I'm just speculating and I will probably be wrong lol.

Bandana Dee: Due to the Yoshi's Wooly World info where Daisy and Bandana Dee had multiple amiibo even though they only had 1 amiibo at the time. Daisy later became a character so we'll see.

Simon Belmont: Only cause of the leak and 2nd Konami rep possibly rounding out 3rd party companies with 2 reps each.

Capcom: Megaman/Ryu

Sega: Sonic/Bayo

Square Enix: Cloud/Geno?

Namco: Pac-Man/Heihachi?

Konami: Snake/Simon?

 

[GoodGrief741]

I have a question regarding Echo fighters, specifically the Octolings and Ninten, what's the benefit of having these characters be Echo fighters as opposed to costumes for their respective characters?

I'm not trying to criticize anyone for their picks with regards to these characters. I've just seen them on a lot of lists with people sort of just saying they make sense as the reasoning for these Echoes. Which always feels like hollow reasoning to me, characters being included as Echo fighters just cause they can be feels really weird as an idea. I would expect newer Echo characters to follow Daisy in being notable names that may have larger fan bases, but not enough move set potential on their own to justify a full on semi-clone or unique character.

Octolings feel especially weird given that they just end up using the same weapons as the Inklings in Splatoon at the end of the day, and also didn't relaly have support til Octo Expansion (Thus falling into the after-March Nintendo Direct hype train that a handful of characters have come from, specifically Sans and Crash).

Ninten is at least his own character I'll concede, but he just looks so similar to Ness at the end of the day and I had never even heard him as a Smash candidate pick until the Echo concept was revealed.

These characters seem to just be on a different tier level compared to the likes of Shadow, Dark Samus, and even Funky Kong (Though he too benefits from the Funky Mode shenanigans early this year). These are names I had seen thrown around much more frequently prior to Echo reveals. Which is why I tend to lean towards them being the more likely Echo characters Sakurai would have picked earlier on in the process, despite the fact I think all three of them are better suited with being more than just an Echo...

I don't know, this is just the way I see it. Echo characters are kind of in a weird space in we don't really know HOW much they can differentiate from the base character other than the physical design acting as a base. How do you all see these characters? I'm very curious to see if my observation of things holds up to other people's observations. I have no problems with them as Echo fighters or as their own characters, I just don't know how much evidence I see towards their inclusion.

Octolings might not have had support from the Smash community until Octo Expansion, but they’ve been massively popular with the Splatoon fandom since the first game (that’s the whole reason behind the Octo Expansion and Octolings becoming playable).

Ninten, admittedly, has seen a boom in support with the reveal of the Echo Fighter concept, but I can attest to the fact that he did have a small following beforehand. Mostly Mother fans wanting to complete the trio. The support comes from the fact that, realistically speaking, Ninten will only ever make Smash as a clone -not due to a lack of moveset potential, he has tons of that and plays nothing like Ness or Lucas do in Smash or in their games- but because he looks so similar to Ness.

In the end, those two, along with Chrom, Dark Samus and Shadow, get support as Echoes because while they could very well be unique newcomers, they could also make decent Echoes and it’s likelier for a less supported character to get in as the latter than as the former.

People tend to support the likelier outcomes, I guess.

 

[Wouldo]

Characters I think will get in:
- Paper Mario (2D characters are much easier to make)
- Dixie Kong (can be built using Diddy's assets, more than just an echo though)
- King K. Rool (Smash Ballot)
- Spring Man (Switch representation)
- Simon Belmont (2nd Konami fighter)
- Heihachi (2nd Bandai Namco fighter)
- Sora (2nd Square Enix fighter, KH3 coming out soon)
- Dark Samus (Echo) (alt color and AT missing)
- Shadow (Echo) (AT missing, possibly replaced by Knuckles AT)
- Chrom (Echo) (Robin's FS not shown, alt color for Ike missing)
- Isabelle (Echo?) (AT missing)
- Xenoblade X/2 character (possible leak)

Characters I want:
Whispy Woods
Porky
Impa
Viridi
Medusa
Tails
King Hippo
Ms. Pac-Man
Chibi-Robo
Excitebike
Isaac
Muddy Mole
*Takamaru
*Krystal
*Eevee (& Eeveelutions as its smash attacks and specials)
Feraligatr (my original starter Pokémon)
Primarina
Gardevoir
Type: Null/Silvally or Arceus
Steve (fight me)

I'll update this list later, this is everything I can think of right now

 

[DNeon]

Paper Mario (2D characters are much easier to make)

Actually it's quite the opposite. 3D characters are easy to animate because everything is done by creating a 3D model and making sure the skeleton for it can handle the animations you'll put them through. A 2d character has to express everything through frames on a 2d plane, meaning every animation has to be hand made. This is the reason that so much of the industry has moved away from the sprite work of old, and more 2d games will use 3D graphics anyway.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Characters I think will get in:
- Paper Mario (2D characters are much easier to make) - 2D characters are harder and not as likely as he used to be
- Dixie Kong (can be built using Diddy's assets, more than just an echo though)
- King K. Rool (Smash Ballot) - that and sakurai does know about k rool thanks to the mii costume
- Spring Man (Switch representation) - everyone keeps messing this up the game was out way after the roster was finalized.
- Simon Belmont (2nd Konami fighter)
- Heihachi (2nd Bandai Namco fighter) - only con is tough to implement his moveset according to sakurai when he confirmed him for consideration
- Sora (2nd Square Enix fighter, KH3 coming out soon) - while possible but that's not a safe bet Geno is the real safe bet for second square enix rep sakurai wants geno and is very very high on the ballot and square enix is far more friendly with Nintendo today
- Dark Samus (Echo) (alt color and AT missing) - yes but another thing everyone messes up on dark Samus attacks are not the same as samus attacks most particularly the screw attack dark Samus doesn't have it at all so semi-clone is a safer bet
- Shadow (Echo) (AT missing, possibly replaced by Knuckles AT)
- Chrom (Echo) (Robin's FS not shown, alt color for Ike missing)
- Isabelle (Echo?) (AT missing)
- Xenoblade X/2 character (possible leak)

Bandana dee - it was memory man who possible found this in yoshi Willy world data dig he found daisy and waddle dee as if they hade more than one amiibo and look what happened in smash ultimate daisy is playable so logically bandana dee is in base on this since the other waddle dee assist could be a smash bros bandana dee

Isaac - very high on the ballot logically and still no assist trophy

Banjo and kazooie - the ballot but more likely for dlc though plus there's also vergeben said minecraft might be invovled in smash ultimate so Microsoft possibly involved in development

Made some edits

Green is i agree

Red is disagree

Purple is other possible characters not thought abou

 

[Wouldo]

DNeon
Oh okay, that makes sense. I imagined they could heavily draw from his sprite and animations in the Paper Mario series. Though Smash Bros fighters always have a bunch of attacks and movements not necessarily from their game of origin.

Smashoperatingbuddy123
Thanks for all the info. I was not aware of any of those.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

DNeon
Oh okay, that makes sense. I imagined they could heavily draw from his sprite and animations in the Paper Mario series. Though Smash Bros fighters always have a bunch of attacks and movements not necessarily from their game of origin.

Smashoperatingbuddy123
Thanks for all the info. I was not aware of any of those.

Your welcome

By the way I feel you look at dark Samus fights you will see what I mean about attacks are different heck the assist trophy got the attacks

 

[DNeon]

I would hardly call B&K or Isaac anything close to safe bets.

Isaacs AT hasn't appeared because he didn't even have one in Sm4sh, of which Ultimate started as a port. That's why the ATs that's have appeared function the same and people are making a big deal about the ones that haven't been seen yet because they were the easiest things to 'copy and paste' into Ultimate. Isaac missing an AT doesn't have that same connotation.

Meanwhile calling B&K likely is just saying 'they'll put every most wanted in' which there's 0 guarantee of.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

I would hardly call B&K or Isaac anything close to safe bets.

Isaacs AT hasn't appeared because he didn't even have one in Sm4sh, of which Ultimate started as a port. That's why the ATs that's have appeared function the same and people are making a big deal about the ones that haven't been seen yet because they were the easiest things to 'copy and paste' into Ultimate. Isaac missing an AT doesn't have that same connotation.

Meanwhile calling B&K likely is just saying 'they'll put every most wanted in' which there's 0 guarantee of.

im not saying B&K are safe bets im saying is possible not likely

the only safe bets i see are

Dark samus
King k rool (based on Ridley getting in this one and k rool was far more requested than him before the reveal)
Simon belmont (if the leak holds out)
Shadow
Isabella
Chrom

and a second xenoblade rep

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

I would hardly call B&K or Isaac anything close to safe bets.

Isaacs AT hasn't appeared because he didn't even have one in Sm4sh, of which Ultimate started as a port. That's why the ATs that's have appeared function the same and people are making a big deal about the ones that haven't been seen yet because they were the easiest things to 'copy and paste' into Ultimate. Isaac missing an AT doesn't have that same connotation.

Meanwhile calling B&K likely is just saying 'they'll put every most wanted in' which there's 0 guarantee of.

Unfortunately very true. Both are my most wanted, but they've spent years in irrelevance and even if they performed well on the ballot (something else that's not a guarantee), they could easily get passed on for somebody with similar popularity that's more recent and with a more optimistic future. We just don't know how lax or strict their selection process is this time around, and we don't know how much influence the ballot will have over it.

 

[spoilerowl]

Main Candidates:

Secondary Candidates:

And while I've already listed them (and you can see them in my sig), here are quick rationalizations for my "top 8" newcomers:

King K. Rool / Banjo-Kazooie / Geno - These three are what I consider the "lost characters" - characters who've been neglected or outright abandoned, not just by Smash but also by their own developers. The reason they're among the most campaigned for Smash, I feel, is because of that neglect. KKR has been dead for 10 years now, Geno for 20ish, and Banjo-Kazooie for 10 (but really 18). A playable appearance in Smash for any of these characters would not only mark a return to prominence, but also could potentially facilitate a return in the form of their own series.

Ashley / Isaac / Dixie Kong - Now these three are much lower down on my priority list. But after the above, I think all three would be really cool. Never played Golden Sun, casually played WarioWare, and only played DKC2 as far as Dixie is concerned. But for both their designs and their respective fanbases I feel these would also be cool characters.

Shadow / Dark Samus - Finally, these are two characters I think would be great echo candidates. And both have (circumstancial) evidence of their inclusion. Yes, I'm aware both of them could absolutely have their own original movesets. But the reality is that, especially in Shadow's case, Echoes are the only way they would ever be playable, so it's a small price to pay to be able to play as them. And finally, it's just too perfect: "This is the ultimate!" and Metroid Prime 2: Echoes.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Main Candidates:

Secondary Candidates:

And while I've already listed them (and you can see them in my sig), here are quick rationalizations for my "top 8" newcomers:

King K. Rool / Banjo-Kazooie / Geno - These three are what I consider the "lost characters" - characters who've been neglected or outright abandoned, not just by Smash but also by their own developers. The reason they're among the most campaigned for Smash, I feel, is because of that neglect. KKR has been dead for 10 years now, Geno for 20ish, and Banjo-Kazooie for 10 (but really 18). A playable appearance in Smash for any of these characters would not only mark a return to prominence, but also could potentially facilitate a return in the form of their own series.

Ashley / Isaac / Dixie Kong - Now these three are much lower down on my priority list. But after the above, I think all three would be really cool. Never played Golden Sun, casually played WarioWare, and only played DKC2 as far as Dixie is concerned. But for both their designs and their respective fanbases I feel these would also be cool characters.

Shadow / Dark Samus - Finally, these are two characters I think would be great echo candidates. And both have (circumstancial) evidence of their inclusion. Yes, I'm aware both of them could absolutely have their own original movesets. But the reality is that, especially in Shadow's case, Echoes are the only way they would ever be playable, so it's a small price to pay to be able to play as them. And finally, it's just too perfect: "This is the ultimate!" and Metroid Prime 2: Echoes.

If these were the newcomers we got, I’d legitimately never need another Smash game in my lifetime.

Which does sort of bring up the point Sakurai mentioned of opening Pandora’s Box. After this game there will likely be more cuts, and it’s going to be extremely hard to go to those games after Ultimate. Especially if only then do we get some highly requested newcomers, but we’re missing like 20 veterans...

Which is why I’m hopeful that Sakurai does manage to include a few of the most highly requested and popular newcomers this time, so lots of Smash fans can be happy with this game and we can wait longer til the next Smash game.

Though, speaking of Smash Ultimate character predictions. What are your all’s biggest fears with regards to newcomers and characters for Ultimate? This isn’t a question about bashing other people’s preferred characters, so let’s try to avoid that, but for you personally, what is/are your greatest fears for the roster?

 

[DNeon]

Purple is safe bets you forgot or didn't know about

im not saying B&K are safe bets im saying is possible not likely

You can see where my confusion came from.

 

[GoodGrief741]

If these were the newcomers we got, I’d legitimately never need another Smash game in my lifetime.

Which does sort of bring up the point Sakurai mentioned of opening Pandora’s Box. After this game there will likely be more cuts, and it’s going to be extremely hard to go to those games after Ultimate. Especially if only then do we get some highly requested newcomers, but we’re missing like 20 veterans...

Which is why I’m hopeful that Sakurai does manage to include a few of the most highly requested and popular newcomers this time, so lots of Smash fans can be happy with this game and we can wait longer til the next Smash game.

Though, speaking of Smash Ultimate character predictions. What are your all’s biggest fears with regards to newcomers and characters for Ultimate? This isn’t a question about bashing other people’s preferred characters, so let’s try to avoid that, but for you personally, what is/are your greatest fears for the roster?

My greatest fear is that we get an advertising rep a la Corrin. Somebody who makes it in due to being recent rather than due to being requested.

 

[Ze Diglett]

My greatest fear is that we get an advertising rep a la Corrin. Somebody who makes it in due to being recent rather than due to being requested.

Basically this. I do not want to lose a precious newcomer slot to what's essentially an advertisement for a new release that may or may not even pay off in the long run, in which case it would essentially be a slot wasted in what's supposed to be the Ultimate edition of Smash Bros. We already know those slots are gonna be slim pickings as is, so I'd like to see Sakurai make the most out of them by filling them up with heavy-hitters and dream picks rather than spite the hardcore fans with someone like Steve Minecraft for no reason other than money. I want interesting characters that actually have merit beyond the dollar signs they generate, not a bunch of dirty marketing picks. I can make an exception for a few franchises - Pokemon reps are usually chosen based on the newest games, for instance - but beyond that, no flavor-of-the-month picks. Please.

 

[Idon]

If we have Edelgard, that would make 3 whole characters that got in before their international release date.
And Lyn'll be left in the dust for another 15 years.

Yay, recency bias!

 

[DNeon]

spite the hardcore fans with someone like Steve Minecraft for no reason other than money.

Ah yes, we want the heavy hitters like a ten year old game that's stayed relevant for its entire existence, spans generations in its appeal and is the second best selling game of all time.

We want heavy hitters but not the ones I don't want lmao.

Heavy hitters like a forgotten RPG main character from a series that only barely sold more than a million copies on its first instalment with significant drop off before remaining dead for over 10 years now after a third instalment that flopped. (No offence to Isaac I mean Andy suffers much of the same just pointing out the ridiculous attitude biases people have here).

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Ah yes, we want the heavy hitters like a ten year old game that's stayed relevant for its entire existence, spans generations in its appeal and is the second best selling game of all time.

We want heavy hitters but not the ones I don't want lmao.

Heavy hitters like a forgotten RPG main character from a series that only barely sold more than a million copies on its first instalment with significant drop off before remaining dead for over 10 years now after a third instalment that flopped. (No offence to Isaac I mean Andy suffers much of the same just pointing out the ridiculous attitude biases people have here).

The big difference I find is that he’s a third party character. We want Nintendo big names for the most part, not big name third party characters unless they’ve got some association with Nintendo. I’ll always say first party characters get judged differently than third party characters, cause that’s just true.

And also, I’ll be a little more direct, but Steve is a super ****ty character pick. He has no personality of his own and fails to represent his game properly in anyway other than using a pickaxe maybe... a stage that is semi randomized like Super Mario Maker is much more appropriate to the series it comes from.

Third party avatar characters I have a massive aversion to because they’re so uninteresting and relatively unimportant to their series. Third party characters should have a little more personality in my opinion, being proper representatives of their series.

Though, that all said, I’ll just admit to being super biased against Steve specifically because I’d rather have any other Mircrosoft rep, I find him super uninteresting, and while I do enjoy Minecraft, I wouldn’t say it deserves some huge place in gaming as a whole. It just happens to be popular for our generation.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Minecraft is iconic and does deserve a huge place in gaming. Because it actually did recreate the sandbox genre. Despite being a newer series, it took the world by storm. Steve? is recognizable as an iconic character(he was not created with a default name, which is a key reason not everybody knows him by name, but they still recognize him).

The reality is, big names are more important than simply being associated with Nintendo because they're highly iconic characters(Sakurai went after Cloud because of him being the big gun. He didn't care much about being associated with Nintendo. At best, he wasn't sure if he'd have overall chosen him if he had no Nintendo appearances, but his main goal was to find the biggest FF option first. Nintendo appearances was an afterthought and far less relevant).. These are something that expected as priority, not niche characters fewer would recognize. At least when it comes to 3rd parties. Exceptions do exist(Bayonetta, and Geno assuming he becomes playable, which has a very high chance, moreso than any other 3rd Party character since we know Sakurai wants him playable, and his only real competition, Cloud, is in. Sora doesn't count as he's still a Disney character in the long run), but Steve? just isn't one of them. He's already being promoted as is with a 2DS(or was it 3DS? I can't remember) Minecraft Version. That's severely huge. That Microsoft's owned franchise can be a literal face for a Nintendo system itself. There's no denying how huge this series is, but more importantly, that Microsoft clearly has no issue allowing it in Nintendo products moreso than ever. Minecraft content alone has a huge chance and is very easy to get. Also, Steve?'s only real problem is making a moveset that captures his game well, and that's something that can be harder for many to come up with, as it's not a simple and easy moveset to quickly whip up. It requires a lot more effort to make work coherently. But it's not something that's impossible. A good chunk of characters are designed to actually represent their game moreso than have personality. R.O.B. and Mr. Game & Watch have no real personality whatsoever, yet they're playable. Ryu is extremely bland personality-wise, but here we are. He just barely has one. Steve? doesn't lack this issue either. Fact of the matter is, by personality, Sakurai doesn't simply mean just talking, he means that the character has defined movements and is a defined character. Steve? and Alex? both count for this. They're defined. Moreso than some others already in Smash.

Besides that, Microsoft just has plain bigger options than a very old character who isn't relevant and only wanted by a minority of fans of one particular era of gaming. The point of 3rd parties in most cases is to have "gaming history". That means that they're big enough to be recognized by a huge majority of people, gamers included. Thing is? Minecraft and Halo are the ones that stand out severely. B&K, while good, aren't in that category at this time. They're a bit niche. Besides that, choosing a relevant series makes a lot more sense for them to want to promote right now. Killer Instinct is yet another choice that would be fairly logical, as it has two distinct options for playable(Jago and Fulgore), but even then, their two biggest guys, Master Chief and Steve? are way more known. KI doesn't get enough credit for what it did(defined combos, created announcer chatter, and also created the Combo Breaker), but fact of the matter is, it isn't as recognizable as those two. Another issue with the Rare options is that DKC is the only one highly recognized and truly iconic. The rest of the series aren't nearly as big. Killer Instinct is below it, but more active and easy for people to know of these days. To drive it home further, Microsoft went out of their way to note that the Banjo costume for Minecraft was to appeal to N64 fans. They don't even think it's a gaming icon in general. They know the character is popular, but that's not the same thing.

The only major things going for B&K are possibly the ballot, and the fact Sakurai considered them back during Melee. But it was just a thought, and not much else. They got dismissed pretty quickly, along with James Bond, due to 3rd party issues. Since then, the series has become much less relevant and notable(unless you grew up with an N64, anyway). So while they have a chance? Steve?'s and Master Chief have way better ones. Fulgore/Jago could go either way, but it's likely higher due to being relevant and actually being from a game with a more notable history. Even to Nintendo alone.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Nobody’s saying that Minecraft isn’t huge, or that Steve makes a lot of sense from a business standpoint.

What I am saying is that from the standpoint of myself, the consumer, I don’t want Steve to get in, and don’t think he deserves to. Obviously the suits at Nintendo might decide that they don’t care since I’m buying the game anyway, but that doesn’t mean I can’t still voice my opinion.

And also, selling well doesn’t really matter that much. Otherwise, I’d see people campaigning for Michael de Santa or Captain Price.

 

[DeltaSceptile]

These are the characters that I think will get in:
-King K. Rool
-Bandanna Dee
-Ashley
-A pokemon
-A FE protagonist
-Hilda Echo
-Shadow Echo
-Dark Samus Echo

 

[DNeon]

Obviously the suits at Nintendo might decide that they don’t care since I’m buying the game anyway, but that doesn’t mean I can’t still voice my opinion.

This is such ridiculous double speak. Why do the suits want it? Because he has fans, because he's a big name. This is literally the pioint of my post, stop talking about Steve and Minecraft with such ridiculously obvious biases. There's so much of the classic eponymous 'We' when talking about people not wanting him, or him not actually being popular, and then his popularity or any force that might get him in is 'greedy suits and corporate culture just loooking for money'.

Guess what, if a character being in the game is gonna sell copies such that people treat his likelihood of getting in as semi-innevitable then how the **** is that an argument that he isn't a big important name with such a massive following of fans and worthy of a spot? How can you say that he's gonna bring in money and claim that the 'suits want him' and act like that doesn't imply popularity.

Stop with the double speak. Stop giving Steve a different status to any other fighter just because you don't want him in it. It's so obvious how often people just throw out an argument when he's involved that they don't apply to anything else.

Such as:

but Steve is a super ****ty character pick. He has no personality of his own and fails to represent his game properly

What personality did Ivysaur (with all the different types of traits they can have), Jigglypuff (it's defionitely not anime Jiggs), Squirtle (same), Pichu, Greninja (he was added well before the anime got to that lol), G&W, R.O.B, WFT or ICs all have before they were included in Smash? How much of a personality does ****ing Mario, king of video games, actually have LOL.

And how does Villager represent AC in any way different to how Steve can represent Minecraft? "Procedurally generating" a stage is only half of the Minecraft sandbox formula. Where's the titular Mining and Crafting?

At least you openly admit that you're being biased.

EDIT: For reference, I'm not even a Minecraft super fan or anything, hardly actually played it. I don't even care if he does or doesn't make it. Check my top 10 in the thread and he's nowhere near it, not even making my honourable mentions, and I have no activity in his suppoprter thread. The only reason I'm passionate about arguing this subject is because I'm sick of the culture in so many gaming circles of hating on "the popular thing I don't care about". Like for some reason there needs top be a justification for why everyone else is wrong liking a different thing to you. Accept that if people have a certain taste there's a reason for it and actually try to find it instead of using circular arguments or double standards to justify your personal opinion over theirs.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

Mains

(Ivysaur)

Secondaries:

(To be)

Most Wanted:

King K. Rool - Been my most wanted newcomer since pre-Brawl. Loved Donkey Kong Country 1 on my GB, and from there I've supported him. He was the reason I started speculating in the first place, and have remained my wish since then. I wish for DK to get his villain, and because he is one of the true all-stars missing in my honest opinion.

Lip (Panel De Pon) - It's more about my love for the game/formula than the character itself. I just really love Panel De Pon's gameplay, and my first encounter was with Pokémon Puzzle League on N64, and I loved it to bits. I just wish for such a fantastic franchise to be represented within the biggest historical party of Nintendo. I also think she fills a role not yet done for Smash, and would have an interesting moveset.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

This is such ridiculous double speak. Why do the suits want it? Because he has fans, because he's a big name. This is literally the pioint of my post, stop talking about Steve and Minecraft with such ridiculously obvious biases. There's so much of the classic eponymous 'We' when talking about people not wanting him, or him not actually being popular, and then his popularity or any force that might get him in is 'greedy suits and corporate culture just loooking for money'.

Guess what, if a character being in the game is gonna sell copies such that people treat his likelihood of getting in as semi-innevitable then how the **** is that an argument that he isn't a big important name with such a massive following of fans and worthy of a spot? How can you say that he's gonna bring in money and claim that the 'suits want him' and act like that doesn't imply popularity.

Stop with the double speak. Stop giving Steve a different status to any other fighter just because you don't want him in it. It's so obvious how often people just throw out an argument when he's involved that they don't apply to anything else.

Such as:


What personality did Ivysaur (with all the different types of traits they can have), Jigglypuff (it's defionitely not anime Jiggs), Squirtle (same), Pichu, Greninja (he was added well before the anime got to that lol), G&W, R.O.B, WFT or ICs all have before they were included in Smash? How much of a personality does ****ing Mario, king of video games, actually have LOL.

And how does Villager represent AC in any way different to how Steve can represent Minecraft? "Procedurally generating" a stage is only half of the Minecraft sandbox formula. Where's the titular Mining and Crafting?

At least you openly admit that you're being biased.

EDIT: For reference, I'm not even a Minecraft super fan or anything, hardly actually played it. I don't even care if he does or doesn't make it. Check my top 10 in the thread and he's nowhere near it, not even making my honourable mentions, and I have no activity in his suppoprter thread. The only reason I'm passionate about arguing this subject is because I'm sick of the culture in so many gaming circles of hating on "the popular thing I don't care about". Like for some reason there needs top be a justification for why everyone else is wrong liking a different thing to you. Accept that if people have a certain taste there's a reason for it and actually try to find it instead of using circular arguments or double standards to justify your personal opinion over theirs.

My major point was supposed to be third parties should be treated differently than first party related IPs and characters. Nintendo can put whoever they want in from their games, no personality, playable avatar, or whatever. That’s my main source of bias in that I prefer Nintendo characters to third parties.

And when considering third parties, I want them to be genuine guest characters that no only represent a franchise, but also are real, deeper characters with a legacy to their name.

Minecraft is still building that legacy as for all intensive purposes, it’s still just one game with multiple versions. Steve as a character may be a decently popular part of Minecraft, but he’s featureless. He’s not a character, he’s an avatar. And not one from a classic part of gaming like Mega Man and Pac-Man. And as such, I really dislike him as a choice for Smash.

To me he would be the epitome of cash grab character in the moment. Sure, he has the whole “relevance” thing going for him, but if youv to seen my posts you know how much I despise that line of thinking and find it fairly toxic as a concept to Smash regardless of how true it may be.

And yes, this is all my bias opinion. I treat third party characters with extreme prejudice unless they have some sort of unique situation with Nintendo (Banjo, Geno, Bayo). That’s my line when it comes to Smash, I’m open to all Nintendo characters even if picks sometimes confuse me as to why. But everything mentioned is why I’m not particularly fond of certain character choices in a similar vein to Steve. The Dragonborn is an example I’d likely make similar points about. Even the Doom Slayer who has slightly more character and significantly more history, I’m not a huge fan of. All three of them share the problem of just being character you use to experience the game or the world you’re in.

I’m also not trying to say you’re wrong for liking the character if you do. People can like whoever they want, but I’m willing to voice my opinion on certain character picks is all. Which is generally going to be an opinion must harsher on third party characters putting them to a much higher standard cause I see Smash as first and foremost as a Nintendo all-star game. I do enjoy third parties in the game, but I don’t think any one of them should get in, nor do I feel that Cloud opened the door as much as people want to believe.

It doesn’t help that I think when you have Microsoft at the table you have several other characters I think that should be considered as well prior to Steve, Master Chief and Banjo being the big two I’d (again from a personal point of view) much, much rather see.

Again, I don’t care who people like. I’m not calling out any specific person on that, and I get that could be considered harsh to supporters of Steve. I’m not trying to call them out altogether for a “bad opinion” (which I don’t intend to do, nor do I think the opinion/support of him is in itself bad) but I think it’s fair for someone to voice their dislike of a character as long as they acknowledge their own biases, which is what I’m trying to do here.

 

[DNeon]

EricTheGamerman That's entirely fair. To be sure I only started this conversation based on the comment that Steve is 'spiting the fans' (and also the 'money' argument).

I'm also far from arguing based on relevance. As I said, the game's been going for 10 years (well 9). It's hardly a 'new' thing. I also contest that it's "still building that legacy" though that depends on what you consider legacy to be. Aside from anything more than a tonne of copiers and unofficial mods that also turned into their own whole ways to play, there's only 1 spin off I guess (a very mediocre one at that).

I'd also say that I'm not a fan of the idea that Smash is still 'Nintendo all-stars'. It's very firmly turned into a celebration of gaming as a whole (and honestly at this point it's half just a celebration of itself), and while Nintendo characters will always continue to outnumber the others because of the pre-existing characters and the ease of creating new ones from their own company there's been far more moves towards celebrating many other characters, games and even developers.

Also where I feel the 'Nintendo All-Star' mentality falls flat is exactly where you've illustrated in your talk of reaching out to Microsoft. If they're talking then why not all 3? Obviously time constraints means being realistic in the expectations from any colaboration but nothing here is about being base roster vs DLC possibilities.

Anyway, this has been a productive discussion and I appreciate your perspective on it and I'm glad you agree with my principles in others' opinions at least.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

EricTheGamerman That's entirely fair. To be sure I only started this conversation based on the comment that Steve is 'spiting the fans' (and also the 'money' argument).

I'm also far from arguing based on relevance. As I said, the game's been going for 10 years (well 9). It's hardly a 'new' thing. I also contest that it's "still building that legacy" though that depends on what you consider legacy to be. Aside from anything more than a tonne of copiers and unofficial mods that also turned into their own whole ways to play, there's only 1 spin off I guess (a very mediocre one at that).

I'd also say that I'm not a fan of the idea that Smash is still 'Nintendo all-stars'. It's very firmly turned into a celebration of gaming as a whole (and honestly at this point it's half just a celebration of itself), and while Nintendo characters will always continue to outnumber the others because of the pre-existing characters and the ease of creating new ones from their own company there's been far more moves towards celebrating many other characters, games and even developers.

Also where I feel the 'Nintendo All-Star' mentality falls flat is exactly where you've illustrated in your talk of reaching out to Microsoft. If they're talking then why not all 3? Obviously time constraints means being realistic in the expectations from any colaboration but nothing here is about being base roster vs DLC possibilities.

Anyway, this has been a productive discussion and I appreciate your perspective on it and I'm glad you agree with my principles in others' opinions at least.

Yeah, Minecraft has been one of the poster childs of Games as a service, so i don’t think it has really had a chance to develop beyond the initial game in any meaningful way (though at least the updates remain free). I wonder how a Minecraft 2 would even be taken by the community to some degree at this point. That’s a long-standing legacy of one game for sure, there’s no arguing that point.

I also don’t like Steve for the same reason I don’t love Springman. They’re both uninspiring picks to me, when you could do potentially much more from the base series if you’re going to make a playable character.

To be completely fair, I could come around on the idea of a playable Minecraft rep with Sakurai at the helm. I hated Bowser Jr and Duck Hunt as the last picks for Smash 4 due to my own desires for other characters, but once I played them I did come to love them (Especially Duck Hunt). I’m not stagnant on my views for Smash by any means, but for now I just can’t support a playable Minecraft rep from my own opinions.

 

[Aurane]

The only newcomers I really want at this point are mostly indies (Sans/Papyrus, Quote, Etc.) and The Dragonborn, so I've basically made my peace. My melee main is back. That is good enough for me.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Ah yes, we want the heavy hitters like a ten year old game that's stayed relevant for its entire existence, spans generations in its appeal and is the second best selling game of all time.

We want heavy hitters but not the ones I don't want lmao.

Oh, brother...
By heavy-hitters, I mean fanservice picks, as in characters added to please long-time Smash fans. By that definition, Steve is decidedly not a heavy-hitter; if anything, he would be the exact opposite for Smash fans. Yes, I know Steve has fans (although that's more so affinity for the game he comes from than the character himself, but I digress), but that does not translate into popularity within the Smash fanbase, which is what I'm talking about. Steve has a presence among casual consumers... very, very casual consumers... but how many Smash fans do you see actually advocate for Steve? I haven't exactly run the numbers or anything, but I haven't seen many - other than a few brazen forum warriors who I'm convinced are just playing devil's advocate so they can accuse some poor souls of "doublespeak" and "hypocrisy" to farm some precious karma. If anything, I've seen more animosity towards his inclusion from Smash fans than anything else, and considering Ultimate is going out of its way to cater to Smash fans, a blatant cash-grab pick like Steve that hardcore fans outright don't seem to want by and large would actively spit in the face of that vision, and I don't want that. He's a character I oppose based on the implications of his possible inclusion more than anything else. You can throw your snarky comments and strawman "quotes" ("We want heavy hitters but not the ones I don't want lmao") at me all you want, but that's just my opinion on the character and I'm sorry if you think it's logically inconsistent or whatever. And besides, isn't the question of "what fears do you have regarding this game's roster" a matter of opinion anyway?
To summarize, I'm obviously not implying that literally nobody likes Steve and there wouldn't be people who would be happy to see him in. However, I do predict he would be a generally unpopular pick if he actually got in Smash, especially among this game's target audience, hardcore Smash fans, even if he does sell the game to some prepubescent kids who don't actually care about the game and just want to play as their epic block man.

 

[GoodGrief741]

This is such ridiculous double speak. Why do the suits want it? Because he has fans, because he's a big name. This is literally the pioint of my post, stop talking about Steve and Minecraft with such ridiculously obvious biases. There's so much of the classic eponymous 'We' when talking about people not wanting him, or him not actually being popular, and then his popularity or any force that might get him in is 'greedy suits and corporate culture just loooking for money'.

Guess what, if a character being in the game is gonna sell copies such that people treat his likelihood of getting in as semi-innevitable then how the **** is that an argument that he isn't a big important name with such a massive following of fans and worthy of a spot? How can you say that he's gonna bring in money and claim that the 'suits want him' and act like that doesn't imply popularity.

Stop with the double speak. Stop giving Steve a different status to any other fighter just because you don't want him in it. It's so obvious how often people just throw out an argument when he's involved that they don't apply to anything else.

Such as:


What personality did Ivysaur (with all the different types of traits they can have), Jigglypuff (it's defionitely not anime Jiggs), Squirtle (same), Pichu, Greninja (he was added well before the anime got to that lol), G&W, R.O.B, WFT or ICs all have before they were included in Smash? How much of a personality does ****ing Mario, king of video games, actually have LOL.

And how does Villager represent AC in any way different to how Steve can represent Minecraft? "Procedurally generating" a stage is only half of the Minecraft sandbox formula. Where's the titular Mining and Crafting?

At least you openly admit that you're being biased.

EDIT: For reference, I'm not even a Minecraft super fan or anything, hardly actually played it. I don't even care if he does or doesn't make it. Check my top 10 in the thread and he's nowhere near it, not even making my honourable mentions, and I have no activity in his suppoprter thread. The only reason I'm passionate about arguing this subject is because I'm sick of the culture in so many gaming circles of hating on "the popular thing I don't care about". Like for some reason there needs top be a justification for why everyone else is wrong liking a different thing to you. Accept that if people have a certain taste there's a reason for it and actually try to find it instead of using circular arguments or double standards to justify your personal opinion over theirs.

Steve does, however, have a different status than most potential Smash candidates: the fact that, despite all the things going for him, the Smash fanbase at large seems to either not care about him or be opposed to him being in (or at the very least, that is my perception, feel free to challenge it with evidence).

Sakurai and his team have usually been pretty savvy at striking the balance between giving the fans what they want, surprising them, and making a game that’s financially viable. Steve has gaming history behind him, he has the sales, and he has popularity with casual audiences. That can describe a lot of characters (again, why not add a representative from the fastest selling and most profitable entertainment product ever, GTAV?), but the dev team has always been able to strike that balance somewhat successfully, and there appear to be some picks that would simply irk too many people to be worth the money (like Goku).

 

[Opossum]

I haven't exactly run the numbers or anything, but I haven't seen many - other than some brazen forum warriors who I'm convinced are just playing devil's advocate so they can accuse some poor souls of "doublespeak" and "hypocrisy" to farm some precious karma.

It's easy to say a character has no support when you arbitrarily write off their support as illegitimate...