Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Michael the Spikester]

Sorry for trolling earlier. I didn't intend for it to come off that way.

Anyway, here's something that's been on my mind. If for whatever reason, they decide to bring back the Smash Ballot, how do you think they will handle it? Do you guys think it'll be largely the same, or do you think the rules will be a bit more strict?

For one thing Sora, Crash, Steve, and Lloyd will certainly be contenders for top spot now that Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo have gotten in.

 

[cosmicB]

In another round of WCF woefully misinterprets current discourse, three out of the five Fighter Pass 1 characters were from JRPGs. That’s not ignorance, that’s the stats. While they’re obviously unique in the grand scale of things and all bring unique mechanics to the table and sepereately all deserved their inclusion, including Byleth, I don’t think it‘s foul to speak out when you want more visually distinct characters, or want other types of genres represented.
JRPG fans got their share, and I think it’s fair to not want more of that if you’re not a fan of it, regardless of the differences within the category.

I think wanting genre diversity is a perfectly acceptable preference. We still don't have a rhythm rep, a unique puzzle rep (Dr. Mario is not that), a VN rep, an FPS rep, a unique survival horror rep, etc.

All that said, that's more a criticism of trends than the individual characters themselves. And I guess unfortunate for those that hate JRPGs as I can't imagine we'll go an entire pass without a single new one, at least assuming Sakurai cares about fan requests as a good chunk of the most wanted characters are from JRPGs.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I wasn’t comparing those two though, but comparing them to possible future RPG protagonists in Pass 2.

Because Joker, a modern high school thief clad in black and wielding a knife and a gun, would totally be similar to say, Lloyd Irving, a dual wielding borderline Super Saiyan, or Edea Lee, a Final Fantasy Samurai with a variety of different abilities, or etc. etc. etc.

Genre doesn't matter when it comes to character design and moveset potential. The fact of the matter is that JRPGs are a highly influential genre of games spanning every console generation and seeing a large resurgence as of late. You don't have to like them, but don't misrepresent them in bad faith.

 

[PLANTMAN]

For one thing Sora, Crash, Steve, and Lloyd will certainly be contenders for top spot now that Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo have gotten in.

Eh I doubt it

 

[Digital Hazard]

FPS rep

Um, excuse you...

"But the Prime games are an action-adventure series, just in first person!"

And how does that stop it from also being a FPS when it has the general mechanics of one too?

 

[Perkilator]

For one thing Sora, Crash, Steve, and Lloyd will certainly be contenders for top spot now that Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo have gotten in.

The former three, maybe, but Lloyd? Probably not.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Eh I doubt it

Who do you think are the current most requested characters then?

 

[PLANTMAN]

Who do you think are the current most requested characters then?

It’s not that it’s just I doubt they’re in

for I expect no more western characters

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Admittedly, I’ve never played Tales so I don’t know what Lloyd has in his arsenal besides dual wielding and probably some JRPG mechanics

So you're arguing with an uninformed opinion?

There's your problem; you don't have an argument at all.

It's okay to have opinions, but don't try to argue them if you don't have any evidence to back them up. Especially when the evidence contradicts your claims.

That's generally not a good look.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I would take a babys candy if it meant id get sora in smash

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Anyway, here's something that's been on my mind. If for whatever reason, they decide to bring back the Smash Ballot, how do you think they will handle it? Do you guys think it'll be largely the same, or do you think the rules will be a bit more strict?

It depends on what restrictions you're thinking they'll make for the ballot.

 

[cosmicB]

Um, excuse you...

"But the Prime games are an action-adventure series, just in first person!"

And how does that stop it from also being a FPS when it has the general mechanics of one too?

Dark Samus is interesting because she is indeed the only unique FPS rep, but she's also a non-playable antagonist. There's no other character like that in the roster when genre is taken into account.

But hey, I'm all for using her to call it a day with FPS reps so we can get more characters that appeal specifically to my tastes :D

 

[chocolatejr9]

It depends on what restrictions you're thinking they'll make for the ballot.

Me personally? I wouldn't be surprised if the last one had a bunch of "meme picks" (i.e. Goku or Shrek), so I feel they would try to do something about that.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Because Joker, a modern high school thief clad in black and wielding a knife and a gun, would totally be similar to say, Lloyd Irving, a dual wielding borderline Super Saiyan, or Edea Lee, a Final Fantasy Samurai with a variety of different abilities, or etc. etc. etc.

Genre doesn't matter when it comes to character design and moveset potential. The fact of the matter is that JRPGs are a highly influential genre of games spanning every console generation and seeing a large resurgence as of late. You don't have to like them, but don't misrepresent them in bad faith.

Again, I am not comparing them on a character-to-character basis. Joker is different from Hero who is different from Byleth who is different from Lloyd and co. But the trend so far has been overtly humanoid. Is that the fault of RPGs? No. RPGs can have non-humanoid protagonists/characters, such as Geno and humanoids can come from any type of game (Terry showed this). But characters do bring their own game to Smash, and things like weapons and meters are more common in RPGs than in other genres, and more importantly, RPGs do not have the mechanics of fighting games, rhythm games or shooters.

If you compare them one-by-one, it‘s a silly argument to make, RPGs are not inherently bad or not unique or whatever, but if you look at the trend it would leave certain types of playstyles, characters and fanbases out of the trend continued in a consistent capacity. I’d also argue against the fact that genre doesn’t have an impact: Sakurai takes game mechanics in mind. It’s lead to Terry, Min-Min being so faithful. If fighters were only from one specific type of game, we would lose out on those characters and their playstyles. That’s not a knock on RPGs as a genre on its own, but to as a genre that has taken the lion’s share of the Pass 1 and has so far been a frontrunner in speculation for Pass 2 as well.

Lloyd being added to the game doesn’t sour DLC, of course not. Fighter Pass 1 wasn’t soured either, because it would mean that I dislike RPGs personally, which I don’t.

So you're arguing with an uninformed opinion?

There's your problem; you don't have an argument at all.

It's okay to have opinions, but don't try to argue them if you don't have any evidence to back them up. Especially when the evidence contradicts your claims.

That's generally not a good look.

Let me preface this by saying that none of the choices so far were bad or unexciting to me and Persona, Dragon Quest and Three Houses are all hugely influential series and games with unique mechanics and even better Smash reps and I in no way have a vendetta against RPG or their characters and especially not their fans and I feel my argument has been misrepresented to be about the similarities between the RPG characters (they’re different series with different characters and different playstyles) when it’s more about the differences ”non-RPG characters” could bring as we saw with Min Min or even someone like Banjo-Kazooie with their quirky animations.

But I am arguing in bad faith, and I’m sorry for that. I woke up today, saw a post on the discourse (while later being told what the discourse was about) and made a post saying that, or at least implying that RPGs share something inherently. I don’t know what it is, I presume it is humanoid protagonists so far and I’m still trying to figure out what it was. I got called out on it, rightfully, and edited my post on a point. But it‘s hard to admit you were wrong, especially when you’re trying to figure out what it is exactly that you feel and are trying to argue, so I made the post above to try to explore further why I would have issues with a second pass similar that would be similar to the first, even though, yes, rationally and obviously, genre doesn’t dictate the set in any overarching way.

I would love to know more about Lloyd, who I found out this discussion was about, and will leave the verbalizing of my knee-jerk reaction to my personal headspace and I’m sorry if you felt duped into discussing it with me

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Me personally? I wouldn't be surprised if the last one had a bunch of "meme picks" (i.e. Goku or Shrek), so I feel they would try to do something about that.

I mean they did a good job ignoring it but yeah I think they'll do something like that. I don't think they'll place any other restrictions since they'll want people to think that any video game character is possible.

Even Lightning Mcqueen

 

[Diddy Kong]

For one thing Sora, Crash, Steve, and Lloyd will certainly be contenders for top spot now that Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo have gotten in.

No there's still Isaac, Geno, Dixie Kong, Monster Hunter, Ryu Habusa, Bandana Dee, Rex and any given Pokémon I could see happening before them. They have a lot of popularity too.

Besides all other characters of this Fighters Pass would probably surprise us anyway. If you can expect anything, expect the unexpected.

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

pretty interesting question I just thought about now:
if there was a big named character gets a mii costume in the next smash presentation, who do you think would it be.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

pretty interesting question I just thought about now:
if there was a big named character gets a mii costume in the next smash presentation, who do you think would it be.

Big among the Smash community? Geno (cue massive meltdown that causes Crashboards)

Big in general? someone like Dante or Tracer (Dante better come with Devil Trigger as a song or I'm not buying)

 

[WeirdChillFever]

pretty interesting question I just thought about now:
if there was a big named character gets a mii costume in the next smash presentation, who do you think would it be.

I could see a Rayman Hoodie for Brawler.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Apparently forgot about Waluigi. He's the only assist promotion I see happening. Ones like Isaac, and Shadow I think will have to wait next game.

 

[SharkLord]

Big among the Smash community? Geno (cue massive meltdown that causes Crashboards)

Big in general? someone like Dante or Tracer (Dante better come with Devil Trigger as a song or I'm not buying)

Crash Bandicoot but he's the costume from the old live-action trailer. We CrashBoards now.

 

[Perkilator]

I would take a babys candy if it meant id get sora in smash

Probably something Shadow would do to get in Smash which, by his logic, is fine by him regardless of what gets in his way.

 

[Opossum]

Um, excuse you...

"But the Prime games are an action-adventure series, just in first person!"

And how does that stop it from also being a FPS when it has the general mechanics of one too?

The thing that makes it even more blatant is the fact that first person shooters are, by definition, a subgenre of Action games, which make up half of the Action-Adventure subgenre. So like, there's no way to say it isn't an FPS. :V

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

If you compare them one-by-one, it‘s a silly argument to make, RPGs are not inherently bad or not unique or whatever, but if you look at the trend it would leave certain types of playstyles, characters and fanbases out of the trend continued in a consistent capacity. I’d also argue against the fact that genre doesn’t have an impact: Sakurai takes game mechanics in mind. It’s lead to Terry, Min-Min being so faithful. If fighters were only from one specific type of game, we would lose out on those characters and their playstyles. That’s not a knock on RPGs as a genre on its own, but to as a genre that has taken the lion’s share of the Pass 1 and has so far been a frontrunner in speculation for Pass 2 as well.

There's large diversity within JRPGs, however. Persona isn't similar to Dragon Quest, just as Dragon Quest isn't similar to Tales of, just as Tales of isn't be similar to Bravely, just as Bravely isn't similar to Ys, just as Ys isn't similar to Kingdom Hearts, just as Kingdom Hearts isn't similar to Pokémon. Just from your example alone Tales of plays more like a fighting game than a JRPG; there's large room for diversity within the genre.

I understand what you're saying, but your argument seems to be based on the theory of "slots" being used to meet certain criteria, wherein one character getting in necessitates another character being left out. Character X has no standing on Character Y's chances. If Sakurai and Nintendo want to include JRPG characters, they'll do so, and those characters will be full-fledged, unique fighters who bring something new to the table, just as a newcomer from any other genre would. Again, I understand what you're saying, but at the end of the day so long as the character is unique why does it matter?

I really don't understand people's discontent with JRPGs other than a general bias against anime. Which is ironic considering the large amount of inspiration Nintendo series (Legend of Zelda, Pokémon, Xenoblade, etc.) have taken from anime, and the large demand those series see compared to the general stigma against other "anime swordfighters."

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Curious question to everyone. Who do you think is the most slept on or dark horse pick this Pass could have?

 

[Perkilator]

Curious question to everyone. Who do you think is the most slept on or dark horse pick this Pass could have?

Sakura Shinguji, Euden, just to name a couple.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Curious question to everyone. Who do you think is the most slept on or dark horse pick this Pass could have?

third party: Neku, KOS-MOS
first party: Elma, Octoling (non-echo)

 

[WeirdChillFever]

third party: Neku, KOS-MOS
first party: Elma, Octoling (non-echo)

Shocking selection coming from you

 

[SKX31]

pretty interesting question I just thought about now:
if there was a big named character gets a mii costume in the next smash presentation, who do you think would it be.

Big among the Smash community? Geno (cue massive meltdown that causes Crashboards)

Big in general? someone like Dante or Tracer (Dante better come with Devil Trigger as a song or I'm not buying)

Okay, I'm gonna go with the wildest guesses:

Big within the Smash community: Shantae. If only because indies have gotten quite a bit of Mii costumes.

Big in general: PUBG. Because it'd fit the "type of game not many would expect Sakurai to play" category.

Curious question to everyone. Who do you think is the most slept on or dark horse pick this Pass could have?

Now that's a great question. Kinda leaning on Falcom if we're talking Japanese, something like Dungeon Fighter Online if it's international.

 

[PeridotGX]

Curious question to everyone. Who do you think is the most slept on or dark horse pick this Pass could have?

Mimikyu. It's the most popular Pokemon from the Google Poll (excluding Greninja and Lucario, who are already in Smash).

 

[cosmicB]

Curious question to everyone. Who do you think is the most slept on or dark horse pick this Pass could have?

I think people are HARD sleeping on the idea of another Terry situation where he brings a non-massive whole company with him instead of just a character, and I feel that a big contender for that company would be Falcom. A lot of circles I run in also feel the same way. If the situation is similar, Adol is the obvious pick there.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Given Doom Slayer was deconfirmed based on the interview. I could see Dovahkiin especially since the Vault Boy costume. I'd keep an eye on him.

 

[PLANTMAN]

Given Doom Slayer was deconfirmed based on the interview. I could see Dovahkiin especially since the Vault Boy costume. I'd keep an eye on him.

Bethesda rep is dead I ain’t expecting it

 

[Deleted member]

Curious question to everyone. Who do you think is the most slept on or dark horse pick this Pass could have?

When it comes to characters, by far the most slept on is Billy and Jimmy from Double Dragon and there's no one else that would convince me otherwise.

 

[SharkLord]

Curious question to everyone. Who do you think is the most slept on or dark horse pick this Pass could have?

As you all know, I believe Reimu's somewhere between a sleeper and a dark horse. On one hand, Touhou's got a lot of achievements, but on the other, it's still an indie game from a niche genre that doesn't have much overlap in the Western Smash fandom. Still, we got guys like Joker and Terry, and Nintendo's been involved with Touhou before. Plus, ZUN is really easy to work with. Obviously Reimu as a fighter would be the ideal outcome, but I'd be very surprised if we don't have a Touhou anything at the end of the day.

I also believe Isaac's been slept on a fair bit, for someone so popular. A lot of people ignore him because of the Assist Trophy, but I believe Assists are back on the table. Min Min was chosen because Yabuki told Sakurai "Everyone is the protagonist, but Min Min is my favorite." Plus, Spring Man was part of the initial teaser board, and he was shown prominently in Min Min's trailer, even if he got the boot. Besides, Assists can be toggled off for certain situations (Disrupting stage hazards, being a background element, Alucard not having a reflection, etc). I don't think Nintendo and Sakurai care too much about Assists.

I'm pretty surprised at the lack of support for Ezio Auditore and Bill Razer, given how iconic those series are. AC I can understand, at least, given it doesn't have much overlap with Nintendo fans and Rayman sucks up all the Ubisoft support, but Contra was an NES classic; Heck, it's even why the Konami Code is so famous! At the very least, I could see a Bill Mii Gunner.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

When it comes to characters, by far the most slept on is Billy and Jimmy from Double Dragon and there's no one else that would convince me otherwise.

Another one I'm keeping an eye on as well. They do represent the beat 'em up genre after all.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Curious question to everyone. Who do you think is the most slept on or dark horse pick this Pass could have?

Phoenix Wright. I haven't heard anyone talk about him lately.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

As you all know, I believe Reimu's somewhere between a sleeper and a dark horse. On one hand, Touhou's got a lot of achievements, but on the other, it's still an indie game from a niche genre that doesn't have much overlap in the Western Smash fandom. Still, we got guys like Joker and Terry, and Nintendo's been involved with Touhou before. Plus, ZUN is really easy to work with. Obviously Reimu as a fighter would be the ideal outcome, but I'd be very surprised if we don't have a Touhou anything at the end of the day.

I also believe Isaac's been slept on a fair bit, for someone so popular. A lot of people ignore him because of the Assist Trophy, but I believe Assists are back on the table. Min Min was chosen because Yabuki told Sakurai "Everyone is the protagonist, but Min Min is my favorite." Plus, Spring Man was part of the initial teaser board, and he was shown prominently in Min Min's trailer, even if he got the boot. Besides, Assists can be toggled off for certain situations (Disrupting stage hazards, being a background element, Alucard not having a reflection, etc). I don't think Nintendo and Sakurai care too much about Assists.

I'm pretty surprised at the lack of support for Ezio Auditore and Bill Razer, given how iconic those series are. AC I can understand, at least, given it doesn't have much overlap with Nintendo fans and Rayman sucks up all the Ubisoft support, but Contra was an NES classic; Heck, it's even why the Konami Code is so famous! At the very least, I could see a Bill Mii Gunner.

I don’t think Reimu is a dark horse pick by the sole virtue that she’s in the conversation in Smash speculation, which considering how narrow the scope it has is, makes her quite “brought-up”

 

[3BitSaurus]

Curious question to everyone. Who do you think is the most slept on or dark horse pick this Pass could have?

It's pretty much no secret at this point that my response would be "a League of Legends character", if only because of the slept on aspect. But a Falcom character also seems like a good dark horse pick.

Honorable mentions to a Sega character that isn't Arle or Kiryu and a Capcom character that isn't Phoenix Wright, a Monster Hunter or Dante. Well, not literally any character, but you get what I mean.

 

[zeldasmash]

Given Doom Slayer was deconfirmed based on the interview. I could see Dovahkiin especially since the Vault Boy costume. I'd keep an eye on him.

I honestly don't think we can say interviews can confirm nor deconfirm. NDA's are a thing and Nintendo is one of the more strict to code followers of NDA's (look at Fire Emblem Three Houses when 2 voice actors were fired for breaking NDA's). I wouldn't take that interview too seriously. Who knows if they could be making it up for the sake of NDA.