Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Aetheri]

I dunno if people have heard of the short story "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie"

But it's a pretty good synopsis of the Smash fanbase.

 

[N3ON]

Most fighting games aren't as conservative about keeping past rosters as intact as they can, and I think it leads to the fanbases being less precious about the characters. Sure people will always have their favourites, but many series make fairly notable cuts, if not larger-scale revamps between some titles, with many of the past cast not returning. That's the way things go. Those fans don't rush to call things unfair when cuts happen, because that's the way most series work, and it will be the way Smash operates going forward. There will be cuts, and given the size of Ultimate's roster, there very well may be wide-scale cuts. It's not a personal thing, it's a matter of pragmatism, so taking it personally is just subjecting yourself to unnecessary discontent.

I think the Smash fanbase is fortunate but also a bit spoiled when it comes to roster preservation. But consider that being in an exceptional situation like this isn't always tenable. It wouldn't go amiss to remember that cuts going forward don't preclude the ability to play the game that has whatever character you like in it. But cuts do happen, and Sakurai has basically indicated that they will happen in the future, and that's just the way it is. My favourite characters are Banjo and Cloud, and I've no illusions that they're pretty much in the bottom rung of likelihood for coming back. It's not done out of malice, so imposing nonexistent ill-will onto these decisions can only end poorly.

 

[RileyXY1]

Most fighting games aren't as conservative about keeping past rosters as intact as they can, and I think it leads to the fanbases being less precious about the characters. Sure people will always have their favourites, but many series make fairly notable cuts, if not larger-scale revamps between some titles, with many of the past cast not returning. That's the way things go. Those fans don't rush to call things unfair when cuts happen, because that's the way most series work, and it will be the way Smash operates going forward. There will be cuts, and given the size of Ultimate's roster, there very well may be wide-scale cuts. It's not a personal thing, it's a matter of pragmatism, so taking it personally is just subjecting yourself to unnecessary discontent.

I think the Smash fanbase is fortunate but also a bit spoiled when it comes to roster preservation. But consider that being in an exceptional situation like this isn't always tenable. It wouldn't go amiss to remember that cuts going forward don't preclude the ability to play the game that has whatever character you like in it. But cuts do happen, and Sakurai has basically indicated that they will happen in the future, and that's just the way it is. My favourite characters are Banjo and Cloud, and I've no illusions that they're pretty much in the bottom rung of likelihood for coming back. It's not done out of malice, so imposing nonexistent ill-will onto these decisions can only end poorly.

I believe that there will be cuts in the next game. Unfortunately, there are some people out there who only want a bigger version of Ultimate and that kind of thinking is toxic.

 

[Idon]

Sakurai: "Re-adding every single character that was cut and was included previously really made us lessen the amount of newcomers we could do for launch."

Fans: "Oh boy, I hope Smashes going forward never cut anyone ever."

 

[PeridotGX]

okay, you all win. the next smash game should just be Ultimate, but with less characters. Nothing to replace them, to make it worth buying.

sorry about this. I'd been having a bad week, and the reaction to my roster was the breaking point. I think I'm gonna take a break from this thread until the arms character gets announced.

 

[Koopaul]

You can't compare Smash's situation to other fighting games. We just had Ultimate. A game the brought back everyone's favorite. How many fighting games do that? When characters get cut in MvC it's just something people are used to. That's not the case here, and it's even worse after Utlimate. "You brought back Ice Climber and now you're cutting them again?!" It will hurt even more than usual in the next game. Ultimate opened Pandora's box and the series is in a tight situation.

Had Smash been a series that cut some and keep others starting with Melee things would be different. We'd be in a different place. But Melee kept everyone. Brawl kept mostly everyone. Smash 4 brought some characters back! And now we're here. Cutting a huge portion of the roster after this game is going to be a big deal. The next game needs to do something different to justify it. And I feel like a reboot would hurt less than keeping the game relatively the same but cutting a huge chunk of fighters. This isn't about doing what's best this is about doing what will hurt fans the least! Because people are going to be hurt no matter what.

 

[Mamboo07]

Why are you guys fighting over a roster reboot?

 

[Koopaul]

There's really not much else to talk about right now while waiting for the next fighter. Besides I think it's a topic worth having.

 

[DanganZilla5]

N3ON You bring up an excellent point, and to add onto it, it's for the sake of existing characters. For example, a likely reason why Ganondorf has remained the way he has been is probably because the team feels like it's more important to put time into new characters because that's what the fans want, instead of improving upon previous characters who desperately needs upgrades. I've talked about this a few times in the past but some characters really need upgrades to their movesets to fit the characteristics and abilities of the character. For example, there is a lot more to Donkey Kong they can do and you can tell his moveset is from an older game, even with all the new bells and whistles to his kit.

It's also important to note that the bigger a roster is, the harder it is to balance it. Miraculously, Ultimate has been doing fairly fine with this with no clearly overpowered characters like in previous games. But there is still some characters that are simply outclassed like Kirby who has been very unlucky when it comes to competitive viability.

A good example I can think of is Mortal Kombat Armageddon. That game has the largest roster out of all the MK games. And guess what, the characters feel identical to each other and there are some characters who feel very powerful and others who feel meh. On the other hand, a game like Injustice has a standard amount of about 20 to 30 characters and even the lower-tiered characters can do some real damage.

I'm probably preaching to the choir, but my point is that if they want to keep the quality of the roster, they will have to cut characters in future games. It sucks that for example, we might see Master Chief in a future game but he might not be able to fight Cloud or Snake. But I would rather have that then let the game suffer. I have a strong suspicion that they wanted to have things like Stage Builder and Home Run Contest in the base game, but they had to cut those because of the huge roster. I'm pretty sure Sakurai stated that World of Light was the best thing they could do and under no other circumstance they would have made it.

The reality is that there will always be upset people whenever there is a cut. But adding new modes including a fully-expansive story mode with cutscenes would add as much, if not more substance than adding some characters. I know that the future of Smash is unknown, but if they cut back on returning characters, that will also mean giving new characters a chance to shine.

So I will end with this: My idea for the next Smash game.

• Cut roster down to about 30 or 40 and add about 10 characters or so.
• Make Subspace Emissary 2
• New modes
• revamped older characters with brand new movesets or at least adjusted movesets
• And having a good online

 

[Arcanir]

I believe that there will be cuts in the next game. Unfortunately, there are some people out there who only want a bigger version of Ultimate and that kind of thinking is toxic.

I wouldn't say it's toxic, the thing with Ultimate is that it has an incredible roster with many favorites within it, so many people want to keep them. It's more that just as fans most of us don't fully understand what's going on with the development side of things. Sakurai does talk about it on occasion, but generally we don't get the details of things like balancing between 80+ characters, negotiations with Third Parties (or even First/Second Parties like Pokémon), glitches, bugs, etc. So we try to give ideas that we feel would be the best option for the franchise that may not actually be feasible for Sakurai and his team to do. Most aren't trying to be unfair, we just don't know and are wanting what we think is the option to go for.

Freya be like "The worst thing to happen to you is being forgotten" before being forgotten by like 90% of fans

That's what happens when the game forgets you exist after Part 1.

 

[RileyXY1]

I wouldn't say it's toxic, the thing with Ultimate is that it has an incredible roster with many favorites within it, so many people want to keep them. It's more that just as fans most of us don't fully understand what's going on with the development side of things. Sakurai does talk about it on occasion, but generally we don't get the details of things like balancing between 80+ characters, negotiations with Third Parties (or even First/Second Parties like Pokémon), glitches, bugs, etc. So we try to give ideas that we feel would be the best option for the franchise that may not actually be feasible for Sakurai and his team to do. Most aren't trying to be unfair, we just don't know and are wanting what we think is the option to go for.

I do think that an expansion or port of Ultimate is on the unrealistic side.

 

[Perkilator]

I dunno if people have heard of the short story "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie"

But it's a pretty good synopsis of the Smash fanbase.

Oh, man, I remember that! I used to read that all the time back in elementary school.

 

[zeldasmash]

I honestly doubt this. Remember Nintendo was technically the ones to choose Joker even if the only Persona games in their systems are two 3DS spinoffs.

I'm not dissing in FFVI, but imo they're more likely to pick a more popular protagonist.

Or a popular antagonist, which is why Sephiroth is a far more likely candidate for a new FF rep then most think he is. Tifa or Noctis can be considered more likely, but Sephiroth is THE Final Fantasy villain for a lot of people. Plus, having Sephiroth in the game might lead us to have One Winged Angel which is a hell yes in every way.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Most fighting games aren't as conservative about keeping past rosters as intact as they can, and I think it leads to the fanbases being less precious about the characters. Sure people will always have their favourites, but many series make fairly notable cuts, if not larger-scale revamps between some titles, with many of the past cast not returning. That's the way things go. Those fans don't rush to call things unfair when cuts happen, because that's the way most series work, and it will be the way Smash operates going forward.

The problem is you can't really do that. You don't have the luxury of making new characters like other series do, and the number of Nintendo characters (the bulk of each Super Smash Bros. game) that would draw in audiences is getting smaller and smaller even with the new IPs that have been appearing especially since if a series loses too many characters, you can no longer add characters to that series since people would prefer having the veterans. I still think you could make a successful reboot (even with a lot of the audience going "thanks, I hate it") but I can't imagine the series continuing much further than that unless you drop the Nintendo focus and make the Super Smash Bros. series a whole gaming wide event. 5 games into that though and we'll still be running into the same issue.

It's also important to note that the bigger a roster is, the harder it is to balance it. Miraculously, Ultimate has been doing fairly fine with this with no clearly overpowered characters like in previous games. But there is still some characters that are simply outclassed like Kirby who has been very unlucky when it comes to competitive viability.

This is nothing new. In fact, Super Smash Bros. Ultimate has the highest percentage of characters that are actually worth something competitively.

 

[Mamboo07]

I dunno if people have heard of the short story "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie"

But it's a pretty good synopsis of the Smash fanbase.

Lemme guess... they demand for more?

 

[KingIceSonic]

They cut out a lot of characters when they made Marvel Vs Capcom 3 but the roster was still pretty decent. Cuts don't automatically make the game worse if you just trim the fat.


We honestly don't need characters like Bowser Jr, Pirahna Plant, Greninja, Incineroar, Robin, or Corrin in the next game.

 

[Koopaul]

They cut out a lot of characters when they made Marvel Vs Capcom 3 but the roster was still pretty decent. Cuts don't automatically make the game worse if you just trim the fat.


We honestly don't need characters like Bowser Jr, Pirahna Plant, Greninja, Incineroar, Robin, or Corrin in the next game.

Yes you say that until you find it's your character they cut. What "trim the fat" means is different to different people.

 

[Phoenixio]

Talking about cuts in the context of Ultimate is just sad. It's the biggest game ever, and it's still in the middle of its release waves. To talk about cuts, you have to put aside the current amazing game, assume there's going to be another, and then bring on the sadness with roster cuts. No wonder so many people hate it when the discussion turns to that, again and again. I prefer to enjoy the moment and the masterpiece that Ultimate currently is.

 

[Goombaic]

Greninja

That's the most popular Pokemon and a pretty good fit in Smash. Other than Pichu, I don't think any of the Pokemon are really bloating the roster, but if I had to limit it to, like, 5, I guess I'd cut it to and either, , or .

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Funny thing about MvC3 is there wasn't too much rather big characters missing. There were fan favorites cut, but MegaMan is one of the few "are you nuts" removals, and Venom is another one who comes close. He was fairly big around that time too, and basically the core secondary Spider-Man character for quite some time. So it's understandable people were annoyed.

MvCI's issue was mainly no X-Men/Dr. Doom, some very core essentials. When you're trying to push Inhumans, some... aren't going to be prioritized. That's fair. Wolverine's cut was however a bit ridiculous, especially as he wanted going to come back for DLC which would've been enough. A lot of others obviously should've come back too.

 

[Aetheri]

Lemme guess... they demand for more?

Pretty much...

Give a mouse a cookie...they'll want a glass of milk

 

[Swamp Sensei]

They cut out a lot of characters when they made Marvel Vs Capcom 3 but the roster was still pretty decent. Cuts don't automatically make the game worse if you just trim the fat.


We honestly don't need characters like Bowser Jr, Pirahna Plant, Greninja, Incineroar, Robin, or Corrin in the next game.

What Robin?

No man, keep them.

I don't know why people want to cut Robin or all characters.

 

[GoodGrief741]

On the subject of a future Smash, I'd be surprised if it doesn't have at least the same amount of characters as base roster Ultimate. I don't think you can have a game with less characters without it being an embarrassment; Ultimate took three years to develop from planning to completion, and managed to have a balanced roster of 76 characters in that time (77 if you count Piranha Plant as being basically done by release). Give it more years of development, cut the filler, whatever third party characters that can't be licensed, and a few strategic picks, and I think you can squeeze in a number of newcomers similar to Brawl or Smash 4's - more if they do Echoes. I don't think they need to, hell, if a veteran and a newcomer take the same workload, cut six characters and you've already got the same amount of newcomers as Ultimate.

I think to return the roster to a smaller number is not only ridiculous, but also unnecessary. A much smaller team working on just characters, stages and music can get 11 newcomers with very complex mechanics and lots of effort put into extra details in 3 years, and while obviously I'm comparing apples and oranges, I still think that just a couple more years in the oven with the whole team can definitely get a good number of characters out. A rebooted roster just doesn't have many selling points - it'd probably be similar in size and selection to Melee, just with more modern picks and third parties. With that scope there's even less room for newcomers. Plus, reworking movesets is a thankless job. Making a new moveset from the ground up for Mario is basically the same amount of work as a newcomer would take, and "Mario but with new moves" is hardly as exciting an addition as a new character. A new function does not equal a new character.

SO NEW QUESTION FOR YOU GUYS!

If Smash HAD to get another Final Fantasy Rep, who would be the best character to get it? I would honestly think Noctis or Yuna.

Sephiroth, Terra or Tidus for me. Sephiroth for more VII, Terra for Nintendo FF and Tidus for modern FF.

I think a reboot roster would have to do something very different from all previous games, it can't just be "Ultimate, but less". It would probably either be a gameplay change, a massive roster shake-up, or both. This roster I made awhile ago is about what I think a reboot roster should be. characters in red are newcomers, characters in green are veterans who got a major moveset overhaul.View attachment 274769
Yes, that's a lot of cuts (I lost both of my mains) and some of the cut characters are series staples, but there are a bunch of new characters to make up for it. There's an actual reason to play it instead of Ultimate, unlike most reboot rosters I see.

I would definitely skip that game with that selection.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Funny thing about MvC3 is there wasn't too much rather big characters missing. There were fan favorites cut, but MegaMan is one of the few "are you nuts" removals, and Venom is another one who comes close. He was fairly big around that time too, and basically the core secondary Spider-Man character for quite some time. So it's understandable people were annoyed.

To be honest, I think Super Smash Bros. and Ultimate Marvel Vs. Capcom 3 have a lot more characters that just straight up should not be removed than Marvel Vs. Capcom 2, and the only reason why Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 didn't have as many is because a lot of the series involved died before development on its sequel began.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

For real though, Robin is the best FE character newcomer they've included in a long time.

I don't know why they're considered fat.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

For real though, Robin is the best FE character newcomer they've included in a long time.

I don't know why they're considered fat.

Because he's from Fire Emblem, simple as that.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Because he's from Fire Emblem, simple as that.

There. You "fixed the FE problem."

if I can include one more.


Point being Robin should be one of the mainstays like Marth and Ike.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think that the next Smash game should set itself apart from Ultimate.

 

[Jomosensual]

Yes you say that until you find it's your character they cut. What "trim the fat" means is different to different people.

I'm sure people will be chill if KKR, Banjo, and Geno(assuming he's in of course) all get cut instead of it being the entire FE cast and half the Pokemon like they want

 

[Mamboo07]

There. You "fixed the FE problem."

if I can include one more.


Point being Robin should be one of the mainstays like Marth and Ike.

That's what my Fire Emblem roster would look like in a reboot.
(The top one)

 

[KingIceSonic]

Yes you say that until you find it's your character they cut. What "trim the fat" means is different to different people.

They cut out my mains Cable and Psy out of MVC3. Was I sad? Heck Yes. And then I got over it when I found out they were adding Trish, X-23. and Phoenix.

I'm saying it now and I will continue saying it after my fav characters get cut. Cuts aren't bad when there is compensation.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

This whole roster discussion reminds me of the opening ceremony for the Olympics in Canada following the one in China two years prior. There was no way they could compete with the scope of China's ceremony, so they went with something more modest and intimate. Basically quality over quantity. It worked really well because they took their own path to create something special and let China's ceremony stand on its own.

I think that's a similar mentality the next Smash will have to take. Let Ultimate be Ultimate and make a new game that's special in its own way. What if Link had a unique victory animation when he's on the same team as Zelda? How about additional costumes and not just recolors? Specific banter during taunts when certain characters face each other? As some have said, reworking characters to improve their playstyles if needed. There's a lot a new game can do with a smaller roster that could never be accomplished with 80 characters.

 

[Idon]

There. You "fixed the FE problem."

if I can include one more.


Point being Robin should be one of the mainstays like Marth and Ike.

Better yet, how about we add the most popular female character in the entire damn series.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

They cut out my mains Cable and Psy out of MVC3. Was I sad? Heck Yes. And then I got over it when I found out they were adding Trish, X-23. and Phoenix.

I'm saying it now and I will continue saying it after my fav characters get cut. Cuts aren't bad when there is compensation.

Sadly, not everyone has that mindset.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Yes you say that until you find it's your character they cut. What "trim the fat" means is different to different people.

Sure, that's true, but there's still different tiers of cut-able characters. I love Duck Hunt, it's one of my favorite additions to Smash, but if it got cut, I'd be sad, I'd campaign for a return, maybe it'd be back for DLC, maybe Smash 7 or 8, and we could have some good stuff in between. Snake and the Ice Climbers being cut in 4 sucked, but we still had Brawl, and we would definitely get them back in Ultimate, and in the meantime we got all the cool newcomers Smash 4 brought.

What I'm saying is, with cuts you can lose your favorite, but you could also get a new favorite. Cuts are a necessary part of the process of making a new Smash, they've happened every time and save for stuff like Mewtwo in Brawl, I'd argue they've been pretty smart about who got cut and who stayed.

 

[Koopaul]

On the subject of a future Smash, I'd be surprised if it doesn't have at least the same amount of characters as base roster Ultimate. I don't think you can have a game with less characters without it being an embarrassment; Ultimate took three years to develop from planning to completion, and managed to have a balanced roster of 76 characters in that time (77 if you count Piranha Plant as being basically done by release). Give it more years of development, cut the filler, whatever third party characters that can't be licensed, and a few strategic picks, and I think you can squeeze in a number of newcomers similar to Brawl or Smash 4's - more if they do Echoes. I don't think they need to, hell, if a veteran and a newcomer take the same workload, cut six characters and you've already got the same amount of newcomers as Ultimate.

I think to return the roster to a smaller number is not only ridiculous, but also unnecessary. A much smaller team working on just characters, stages and music can get 11 newcomers with very complex mechanics and lots of effort put into extra details in 3 years, and while obviously I'm comparing apples and oranges, I still think that just a couple more years in the oven with the whole team can definitely get a good number of characters out. A rebooted roster just doesn't have many selling points - it'd probably be similar in size and selection to Melee, just with more modern picks and third parties. With that scope there's even less room for newcomers. Plus, reworking movesets is a thankless job. Making a new moveset from the ground up for Mario is basically the same amount of work as a newcomer would take, and "Mario but with new moves" is hardly as exciting an addition as a new character. A new function does not equal a new character.



Sephiroth, Terra or Tidus for me. Sephiroth for more VII, Terra for Nintendo FF and Tidus for modern FF.



I would definitely skip that game with that selection.

I think you forget that the only reason Ultimate was possible is because of the right circumstances happening.

1. The Wii U failed so that development on the next Smash could be begin right off the heels of the Wii U one.
2. The Wii U and the Switch aren't too far apart in power so the team could easily transition to making this new game.
3. Sakurai still had the same exact team available who were well equipped to make Smash. Usually that's not the case.
4. Licensing of third-party characters from the Wii U were easy to maintain due to it being relatively recent development.

These circumstances won't be the same next time. The stars alinged and allowed Ultimate to be made. Something like this doesn't come easily.

 

[Droodle]

Better yet, how about we add the most popular female character in the entire damn series.

Yes, let's do just that.

 

[Idon]

View attachment 274808
Yes, let's do just that.

As soon as she gets a decade and a half of staying power and 8 different alts in the resident gacha game I'll see it happening.

 

[Jomosensual]

I think I'll end up worrying about cuts when it's time for the next game. We're likely not even remotely close to getting another Smash game right now. The soonest we're going to get one is when it's time for the new Nintendo console which is still a really far ways away. Who knows where gaming tech will be by then or how certain companies operate or what the gaming scene looks like at all. I don't expect it to happen but I don't think it's completely impossible that we get another Ultimate some day or something remotely close.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I think you forget that the only reason Ultimate was possible is because of the right circumstances happening.

1. The Wii U failed so that development on the next Smash could be begin right off the heels of the Wii U one.
2. The Wii U and the Switch aren't too far apart in power so the team could easily transition to making this new game.
3. Sakurai still had the same exact team available who were well equipped to make Smash. Usually that's not the case.
4. Licensing of third-party characters from the Wii U were easy to maintain due to it being relatively recent development.

These circumstances won't be the same next time. The stars alinged and allowed Ultimate to be made. Something like this doesn't come easily.

The first two points are nothing that can't be compensated with a higher budget or a longer development time.

The dev team possibly not being available is an issue, but still, Smash 4 was their first gig. That one has been said to have taken basically the same amount of work as two games, and it came out alright. They must be able assemble a new team as good as the current one.

Licensing could be a problem, but that doesn't mean a lower number of characters, just that some characters will have to be cut. The time and resources spent on those characters will be allocated to something else instead, be it other characters or different types of content.