Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Hinata]

Oh? You're Approaching Me?

pic.twitter.com/NLyDbCXbjz

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) June 3, 2020

I can't Buster Wolf you without getting closer.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Oh no... Sakurai really COULD put another fire starter in.
He does love all things fire.

That would hurt.

 

[Garteam]

Honestly, if we get another Pokemon, I just hope it's not a starter period. It's frustrating having a series filled with elemental monsters that could have movesets unlike any other character on the roster... only to single in on three bipeds that have distinctly human roles and fall exclusively into one of three types.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

#BlackLivesMatter (1/2) pic.twitter.com/luAbZQWmuQ

— Square Enix (@SquareEnix) June 2, 2020

Considering this and how much Dragon Quest got, I never want to hear "Square is stingy" ever again.

"But FF only has 2 songs!" A damn shame yes, but that's still 2 more than Xenoblade X, which Nintendo COULD have tried getting Sawano on board but they didn't

 

[SnowClaws]

Does anyone still think Urshifu is happening??

Which one, the Single Strike or the Rapid Strike? Single Strike fighting style is Bajiquan like Arika Yuki does in Virtua Fighter and Rapid Strike fighting style is similar to Wing Chun think of Leroy Smith from Tekken 7.

 

[Guynamednelson]

People are going to rage so hard if we get another fire starter’s final form

Complaining about Cinderace being similar to Incineroar would be fine if people were complaining about the right similarities.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Honestly, if we get another Pokemon, I just hope it's not a starter period. It's frustrating having a series filled with elemental monsters that could have movesets unlike any other character on the roster... only to single in on three bipeds that have distinctly human roles and fall exclusively into one of three types.

Whaaaat? Are you saying there's more to cool new Pokémon fighter ideas than picking a normal fighting style and slapping a fire water or plant motif on it? That's the silliest thing I've heard all day!

Which one, the Single Strike or the Rapid Strike? Single Strike fighting style is Bajiquan like Arika Yuki does in Virtua Fighter and Rapid Strike fighting style is similar to Wing Chun think of Leroy Smith from Tekken 7.

If they were to go with Urshifu, they'd do both. There's no way they'd prioritize one over the other. Especially since you can probably count on one hand the number of times they've even been shown individually in promotional material.

 

[SnowClaws]

If they were to go with Urshifu, they'd do both. There's no way they'd prioritize one over the other. Especially since you can probably count on one hand the number of times they've even been shown individually in promotional material.

Then what with them choosing Mega Mewtwo Y for Mewtwo's final smash instead of Mega Mewtwo X? Or, Charizard's final smash Mega Charizard X over Mega Charizard Y? Remember both Mega Evolution pokemon appears individually in promotional material and yet only one of them have to show up in Smash. It is possible that it could just be one of them instead of both of them. The other could be render as a cameo like a spirit, background character in a stage, or a victory pose alongside the other.

 

[DarthEnderX]

"But FF only has 2 songs!" A damn shame yes, but that's still 2 more than Xenoblade X

*psst* Final Fantasy is a little more important than Xenoblade.

Hell, FF's music alone is more impotant than the entire Xeno franchise.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

*psst* Final Fantasy is a little more important than Xenoblade.

Hell, FF's music alone is more impotant than the entire Xeno franchise.

I agree but I'm tired of people saying Square's the stingy party when time and time again Nintendo's proven to be the stingy party, X has multiple Spirits yet not a single track despite that. Almost like Nintendo didn't like the idea of spending money like how they never seem to like paying VAs properly

 

[Perkilator]

*psst* Final Fantasy is a little more important than Xenoblade.

Hell, FF's music alone is more impotant than the entire Xeno franchise.

More importantly, I'm not so sure contributing video game music is comparable to contributing to human rights, much less one being more important than the other.

 

[Goombaic]

*psst* Final Fantasy is a little more important than Xenoblade.

Hell, FF's music alone is more impotant than the entire Xeno franchise.

X has a great soundtrack nonetheless but yeah Final Fantasy is far more important in every field it'd be dumb to argue over that.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Then what with them choosing Mega Mewtwo Y for Mewtwo's final smash instead of Mega Mewtwo X? Or, Charizard's final smash Mega Charizard X over Mega Charizard Y? Remember both Mega Evolution pokemon appears individually in promotional material and yet only one of them have to show up in Smash. It is possible that it could just be one of them instead of both of them. The other could be render as a cameo like a spirit, background character in a stage, or a victory pose alongside the other.

Neither of those were pushed as the main appeal of either Pokémon though.

More importantly, I'm not so sure contributing video game music is comparable to contributing to human rights, much less one being more important than the other.

She wasn't implying that it was.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

More importantly, I'm not so sure contributing video game music is comparable to contributing to human rights, much less one being more important than the other.

My point was that Square's one of the only companies to do more than say something nice by actually donating, they've spent a ****load of money for a bunch of things in the past yet people assume Square is stingy all the damn time when we know it's Nintendo being stingy. Nintendo hasn't even said a word despite protests against police brutality being worldwide, including Japan

 

[Krankees]

Oh? You're Approaching Me?

pic.twitter.com/NLyDbCXbjz

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) June 3, 2020

I'm glad I learned about KOF lore to know what that's about.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm glad I learned about KOF lore to know what that's about.

The guy on left is a massive poopy head and Terry ends up punching him in the face for it.


...Was I close?

 

[SnowClaws]

Neither of those were pushed as the main appeal of either Pokémon though.

Alright then, but wasn't the main appeal of Urshifu is that only one can be chosen for the journey. Like the player can choose to go for Single Strike (offensive) or Rapid Strike (defensive), and not both at once. Similar to the Mega Evolution where only one of the Mega form is chosen, the same thing could be repeated for the Urshifu form.

 

[TechPowah]

Switch: , , , (Wedding Costume) on Great Plateau

The ARMS character got cancelled, you heard it here folks

 

[Koopaul]

She wasn't implying that it was.

I think Perkilator is just saying you can't use a charity as evidence that Square can be difficult working with when it comes to their IP. This isn't about Square being "stingy" this is about Square being overly protective of their IP. And I don't think Xenoblade X not having music is at all comparable. Gaur has a good number of songs already. And X had some Spirits too. Midgar has only two to play on that stage. And there's no Spirits for FF at all.

Sakurai and his team don't have to include songs from everything. That's not stingines, it's just that they didn't bother. We already know that Sakurai actually asks the company permission to use a bunch of songs. He gives them a list. This was revealed in the Terry presentation.

In short, Square is just overprotective of their IP. It's not a money issue.

 

[DarthEnderX]

My point was that Square's one of the only companies to do more than say something nice by actually donating

There's actually a ton of companies doing it now, because it's become an *it* thing to do. Cynically speaking, they're just doing it to make themselves look good. But at least it IS making them do some good.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Which one, the Single Strike or the Rapid Strike? Single Strike fighting style is Bajiquan like Arika Yuki does in Virtua Fighter and Rapid Strike fighting style is similar to Wing Chun think of Leroy Smith from Tekken 7.

If The Pokemon Company is willing to shift, they'll have an Urshifu that's trained in both styles. If not the fighter's gimmick will be that you can choose between two styles before the match.

 

[Cosmic77]

Honestly, if we get another Pokemon, I just hope it's not a starter period. It's frustrating having a series filled with elemental monsters that could have movesets unlike any other character on the roster... only to single in on three bipeds that have distinctly human roles and fall exclusively into one of three types.

Starters feel like such an effortless choice at this point. Pokemon is one of the few franchises in Smash that isn't buckled down by a main protagonist. Each Gen, you have dozens of new and unique options to choose from. Why not take advantage of that instead of focusing on starters, the most obvious and typically easiest Pokemon to make movesets for?

I can be happy with any of the Gen 8 starters, but I'd much rather get something else. Add the dragon that shoots its tiny children at its enemies, or how about adding the giant dog that has a literal shield for a face? Just choose something more unorthodox than one of the three human-like final evos.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Doesn't Square not fully own their music and artwork?

I thought stuff like FF tracks belonged to the FF composer. Much like the DQ guy.

If that's the case, then its not Square, its the composers who are stingy.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Doesn't Square not fully own their music and artwork?

I thought stuff like FF tracks belonged to the FF composer. Much like the DQ guy.

If that's the case, then its not Square, its the composers who are stingy.

This gets thrown around all the time which means it's once again time to talk about Square Enix music copyright.

No, FF music does not seem to be owned by the composer. Look at the copyright listing for the songs in Smash, or the copyright listing on the game's original soundtracks and you'll see it's all listed under Square Enix. This is unlike DQ music which is copyrighted under Sugiyama.

"But hasn't Uematsu used the music outside off FF?"- a question no one has asked but would be a good one to answer anyway.

Well yes he has recorded some FF songs for albums by his band Earthbound Papas, albums yet again containing the copyright listings by Square. Also of note is that he wanted to name the second album Dancing Mad after the song in FFVI but was told no by Square Enix.

"But what about non-Uematsu songs?"

Really doubt any of them would be different.

"So what about the artwork?"

Amano owns his artwork, which includes the logo designs.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This gets thrown around all the time which means it's once again time to talk about Square Enix music copyright.

No, FF music does not seem to be owned by the composer. Look at the copyright listing for the songs in Smash, or the copyright listing on the game's original soundtracks and you'll see it's all listed under Square Enix. This is unlike DQ music which is copyrighted under Sugiyama.

"But hasn't Uematsu used the music outside off FF?"- a question no one has asked but would be a good one to answer anyway.

Well yes he has recorded some FF songs for albums by his band Earthbound Papas, albums yet again containing the copyright listings by Square. Also of note is that he wanted to name the second album Dancing Mad after the song in FFVI but was told no by Square Enix.

"But what about non-Uematsu songs?"

Really doubt any of them would be different.

"So what about the artwork?"

Amano owns his artwork, which includes the logo designs.

So what I said was true for artwork, but not music?

 

[PLATINUM7]

So what I said was true for artwork, but not music?

Only for Amano's artwork.

There's plenty of other art done for the series by other artists like Nomura.

 

[Garteam]

The ARMS character got cancelled, you heard it here folks

...****, I forgot about that.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Alright then, but wasn't the main appeal of Urshifu is that only one can be chosen for the journey. Like the player can choose to go for Single Strike (offensive) or Rapid Strike (defensive), and not both at once.

Which is why a lot of people don't think they'll pick it at all. If they do pick it, I suspect they'll have two of them Baton Passing to each other (or something) rather than just form changing. Doing it in this way shows them both off without going against the fact that you can only pick one. That or some kind of evolution mechanic with Cubfu but that feels like it'd take up more than one moveset, so I don't think they'd go for it.

Similar to the Mega Evolution where only one of the Mega form is chosen, the same thing could be repeated for the Urshifu form.

No. You can get both Mega Stones in the same game. You just have to trade them into the version you want. After that you can swap out which stone you like whenever you want afterward, which is not true of Urshifu.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

There's actually a ton of companies doing it now, because it's become an *it* thing to do. Cynically speaking, they're just doing it to make themselves look good. But at least it IS making them do some good.

View attachment 273598

Oh if you see my twitter feed you'd see a hell of a lot of posts giving corporations **** for doing the absolute bare minimum despite their own recent histories of racism, the only other large company I saw that said they'd donate was EA

That or some kind of evolution mechanic with Cubfu but that feels like it'd take up more than one moveset, so I don't think they'd go for it.

If a Pokemon does this I will write a formal complaint about how that idea would have been ******** for Agumon because of the Digimon Rumble Arena games

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

This gets thrown around all the time which means it's once again time to talk about Square Enix music copyright.

No, FF music does not seem to be owned by the composer. Look at the copyright listing for the songs in Smash, or the copyright listing on the game's original soundtracks and you'll see it's all listed under Square Enix. This is unlike DQ music which is copyrighted under Sugiyama.

"But hasn't Uematsu used the music outside off FF?"- a question no one has asked but would be a good one to answer anyway.

Well yes he has recorded some FF songs for albums by his band Earthbound Papas, albums yet again containing the copyright listings by Square. Also of note is that he wanted to name the second album Dancing Mad after the song in FFVI but was told no by Square Enix.

"But what about non-Uematsu songs?"

Really doubt any of them would be different.

"So what about the artwork?"

Amano owns his artwork, which includes the logo designs.

So what you're saying is, all the rights actually are in one place, or rather, they have talked to every rights holder they needed to to get more (including Spirits), but didn't or couldn't, and SquareEnix actually is just stingy or ludicrously expensive?

Also, imagine having to pay for the ability to stick two 'F's together...

 

[PLATINUM7]

So what you're saying is, all the rights actually are in one place, or rather, they have talked to every rights holder they needed to to get more (including Spirits), but didn't or couldn't, and SquareEnix actually is just stingy or ludicrously expensive?

Also, imagine having to pay for the ability to stick two 'F's together...

It's the pictures in the logos Amano does.

Some typeface company probably owns the font.

 

[Kokiden]

When it comes to FF music, I feel that it's got to do with Nobuo and licensing, not so much SE themselves.

Here in Australia, FF music (with the exception of Remake) isn't even sold in iTunes... but it is sold in American iTunes.

I feel like getting the rights and permissions for FF music is a separate issue outside of SE themselves.

 

[TechPowah]

Pokemon evolution is definitely not the concept to make an install gimmick out of, as standard Pokemon evolutions are meant to be permanent and irreversible
Are you only supposed to play Cubfu for like 20 seconds before spending the entire rest of a 5 minute match as Urshifu?
What would be the point of having Cubfu there to begin with if that's the case?

Even outside of Digivolving being right there, there's plenty more characters you could give such a mechanic to
Phoenix Wright's Turnabout mode from MVC3,
a character known for armor/weapon upgrades, like Shovel Knight in Rivals of Aether
or, yes i'm gonna say the FE word, a Fire Emblem character that can promote into different weapon classes

 

[Perkilator]

Only for Amano's artwork.

There's plenty of other art done for the series by other artists like Nomura.

In that case, why doesn't Nomura either lend his artwork or create new artwork for Spirits? He's friends with Nomura, why didn't he think to do this?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

In that case, why doesn't Nomura either lend his artwork or create new artwork for Spirits? He's friends with Nomura, why didn't he think to do this?

Because being friends doesn't mean you get to ignore royalties, and if Nintendo isn't willing to pay, there's no other outcomw

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Pokemon evolution is definitely not the concept to make an install gimmick out of, as standard Pokemon evolutions are meant to be permanent and irreversible
Are you only supposed to play Cubfu for like 20 seconds before spending the entire rest of a 5 minute match as Urshifu?
What would be the point of having Cubfu there to begin with if that's the case?

You'd probably have to wait for longer. At least a minute. It'd probably work better with a 3-tiered evolution, but I don't think the idea is bad in and of itself.

 

[TechPowah]

The concept of a character where their main gimmick is that they can eventually enter a supermode-like state absolutely not bad, we already have characters that do this with Cloud and Joker <I don't consider Shulk or Hero this as they can more or less enter or leave those states whenever they choose>
I just don't think Pokemon evolution is the concept to take that route
If a Pokemon evolution is taken up as a permanent supermode state, that implies that it would persist even after they've been KOd like Wario Waft
but unlike Waft it's not just a single move that weakens after use

if you fight a Cubfu player and they've taken the steps to evolve into Urshifu
you are not fighting a Cubfu, a character with an evolve gimmick anymore
you're just fighting a Urshifu, a character whose gimmick is that they are very strong

which is why if you go the route of a permanent state, the ability should only stay until after they've died, and will lose the form once they respawn
but Pokemon evolution is a genuine permanent stage of life, so having the character revert back after having lost is not at all how that works in the series
which is why I suggest using looking at different series for that kind of fighter style

 

[SNEKeater]

So as usual, I am continuing to uphold my tradition of playing the games of the characters of the roster in Smash Bros., and this time it was Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon, which stars Marth.

As a remake of the original Fire Emblem title, I wasn't sure what to expect. The oldest game I'd played up to this point was Path of Radiance...though I suppose Shadow Dragon DS is a bit younger than that, so there's a few ways to look at it.

I'm salty, because I got to a point where I needed to get something in order to get Falchion, but I SCREWED UP AND PLAYED LIKE FIVE HOURS AFTER SAVING. So basically, I beat the game without getting Falchion. I was a sad panda.

That said, it was cool to finally see what Marth is all about for myself. I still have never played the original Castlevania (Simon), Mother 3 (Lucas), Fire Emblem the Binding Blade (Roy), and King of Fighters (Terry) and Dragon Quest 3, 4, and 8 (Hero, Hero, and uh, Hero). I still don't think I'll be playing Gyromite or Wii Fit anytime soon.

If you are looking for a new game to really sink your teeth into, I really just have to recommend Xenoblade Chronicles. I'm starting it soon, and it really is just one of my favorite games ever. It introduced me to the larger JRPG genre, and it led to my strongest desires to see Shulk in Smash (which I was granted for Wii U!) I realize not everybody has the luxury of getting certain games, but I truly recommend it!

Shadow Dragon is a nice Fire Emblem game, not the best thing in the franchise but it was cool to see Marth's story. If you didn't know Shadow Dragon has a sequel, also with a remake: New Mystery of the Emblem, but said game was never localized outside of Japan. Same for the original FE3. Marth also appears in the sequel.

I think you will enjoy Binding Blade more than Shadow Dragon. FE6, despite of it's sometimes frustrating RNG, feels a lot more interesting in terms of maps. But expect a story more focused in the world building rather than the characters. Not my favorite FE game but I'd say that the game's villain is probably one of the most cool ones in the franchise.

I haven't played Mother 3, Castlevania 1 or DQ3 and 4. DQ8 is a really cool game and about KoF, I assume that you already tried Fatal Fury. If that wasn't the case, I suggest starting with Mark of the Wolves despite of being the latest game in the series. For King of Fighters I don't know if you would prefer starting with some of the newest entries or going with the classics. I haven't tried KOFXIV but XIII is a very good game and has cool visuals.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The concept of a character where their main gimmick is that they can eventually enter a supermode-like state absolutely not bad, we already have characters that do this with Cloud and Joker <I don't consider Shulk or Hero this as they can more or less enter or leave those states whenever they choose>
I just don't think Pokemon evolution is the concept to take that route
If a Pokemon evolution is taken up as a permanent supermode state, that implies that it would persist even after they've been KOd like Wario Waft
but unlike Waft it's not just a single move that weakens after use

if you fight a Cubfu player and they've taken the steps to evolve into Urshifu
you are not fighting a Cubfu, a character with an evolve gimmick anymore
you're just fighting a Urshifu, a character whose gimmick is that they are very strong

which is why if you go the route of a permanent state, the ability should only stay until after they've died, and will lose the form once they respawn
but Pokemon evolution is a genuine permanent stage of life, so having the character revert back after having lost is not at all how that works in the series
which is why I suggest using looking at different series for that kind of fighter style

I wouldn't make Urshifu that strong. At least, not on the level of the other comeback mechanics. The Single Strike form would have many K.O. options, but lack the overall damage output to get them to high enough percents and the Rapid Strike form would easily be able to rack up damage, but would struggle to K.O. (similar to characters like Sheik). Cubfu would be able to do both, just not as good. This would give the player the interesting decision of "do I want to keep the weaker, but more versatile form for a little longer, or do I want to switch to a stronger, but more polarizing form, and on top of that, which polarizing form do I want to pick?".

There are some obvious pitfalls this could fall into of course. If the balancing is off, than staying as Cubfu would be the legitimately best choice, or Cubfu could be too undertuned in general, or one of the Urshifu forms could be way better than the other (probably Rapid Strike). The very strict balancing and multiple movesets required alongside the fact that Cylarex could take center stage before the fighter is finished leave me to believe that they won't go for it, but I completely disagree that inherent pointlessness is an issue.

 

[TechPowah]

That still feels less like an actual upgrade mechanic, and more of a stance switch system where you have to go out of your way to avoid switching
and then if you have to ignore an entire half of your moveset despite it technically being an "upgrade", what good is it

if you're gonna make an evolve/upgrade character, the upgraded form needs to have a clear, obvious advantage over the base form to justify going through the trouble to access it