Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[TheCJBrine]

Drummer Maui and Mr. Rabbit from Trix got nothing on James Pond.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think that the Sword & Shield Spirit event deconfirms all Sword & Shield Pokemon. If one was to be added then they would not have even had that Spirit event.

 

[Cosmic77]

Not all of Rillaboom's supporters are in it just for getting a grass type in Smash, but I think we need to stop pretending like that's not where a majority of its support stems from.

This is the third time in a row where the Smash fanbase has chosen to back the grass type starter, and unlike the previous two instances, it's abundantly clear that Rillaboom is not the most popular starter. Yes, Rillaboom could be a unique Pokemon, but I question if that's why a lot of its supporters want it. Feels like we've gotten to a point where any grass type would be the favorite, regardless of what gimmick the fire or water types would have.

 

[N3ON]

Not all of Rillaboom's supporters are in it just for getting a grass type in Smash, but I think we need to stop pretending like that's not where a majority of its support stems from.

This is the third time in a row where the Smash fanbase has chosen to back the grass type starter, and unlike the previous two instances, it's abundantly clear that Rillaboom is not the most popular starter. Yes, Rillaboom could be a unique Pokemon, but I question if that's why a lot of its supporters want it. Feels like we've gotten to a point where any grass type would be the favorite, regardless of what gimmick the fire or water types would have.

Decidueye was generally the most popular starter last time (Japan notwithstanding), but who's the one before it? Sceptile?

Blaziken is more popular than Sceptile generally, Sceptile only got the boost due to typing.

 

[CureParfait]

I think that the Sword & Shield Spirit event deconfirms all Sword & Shield Pokemon. If one was to be added then they would not have even had that Spirit event.

I feel like I have some doubts that event deconfirms all Sword and Shield Pokemon given how much content there are in Pokemon Sword & Shield and Pokemon in general.

 

[RileyXY1]

I feel like I have some doubts that event deconfirms all Sword and Shield Pokemon given how much content there are in Pokemon Sword & Shield and Pokemon in general.

There's a reason why they never had an FE 3 Houses Spirit event.

 

[Jomosensual]

There's a reason why they never had an FE 3 Houses Spirit event.

The content in the new Pokemon game vastly outnumbers what 3H has though. There's still a lot of good and popular Pokemon unrepped by spirits

 

[Knight Dude]

If we're talking Crash, I'm sure he'd make for an at least decent character. Not sure why people are saying he's not iconic enough though. As big as Mario or Sonic? Hell no. But he was pretty important during the early 3D days. And managed to stick around for a bit longer after that. I'd argue he's more iconic than Banjo-Kazooie. Granted of the three 3D era platformer franchises, I think he interests me the least, but I ain't about to act like he wasn't the PS1's posterboy.

Hell, Crash was one of those characters that was requested since Brawl, even during his worst days, while not nearly to the magnitude of Sonic and Mega Man, I think still says something.

Obviously, people give way more of a **** about him now because his remakes and racing games came out. Not to mention, with all the other types of characters that show up, more and more people are gonna get comfortable asking for seemingly "out-there" choices. With those two things in mind Of course people are going ask for Crash more than they did last game. I wouldn't consider him a bandwagon character.

Spyro's still the best choice though.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think that we could instead see a Gen 9 Pokemon playable if Ultimate still gets DLC that late.

 

[CureParfait]

There's a reason why they never had an FE 3 Houses Spirit event.

Even then Pokemon has higher amount of content than 3H. Also I don't think having a spirit event with very few Gen 8 stuff that lasted for a few days would stop Nintendo/Sakurai putting a Pokemon in a DLC.

 

[RileyXY1]

Even then Pokemon has higher content than 3H. Also I don't think having a spirit event with very few Gen 8 stuff that lasted for a few days would stop Nintendo/Sakurai putting a Pokemon in a DLC.

Pokemon also doesn't get that kind of attention for DLC. Only Fire Emblem does.

 

[Goombaic]

The content in the new Pokemon game vastly outnumbers what 3H has though. There's still a lot of good and popular Pokemon unrepped by spirits

But ignoring Rillaboom, Cinderace, Inteleon, Wooloo, Yamper, Toxtricity, Dragapult, Grimmsnarl, Hatterene, Cramorant, Obstagoon, Falinks, Sirfetch'd, Drednaw, the fossils, Eternatus,and G-Max forms, they have all the important and fan-favorite Sword and Shield Pokemon.

 

[Icedragonadam]

The Pokemon spirit event was in November, the same month Byleth's video was recorded. Why would they plan a Pokemon spirit event after more DLC was decided if a Gen 8 Pokemon was getting in?

 

[CureParfait]

Pokemon also doesn't get that kind of attention for DLC. Only Fire Emblem does.

Given Ultimate is the 2nd Smash game with DLC, I think there's chance it may change about that especially with the 2nd Fighter Pass. Since there's a low chance a Fire Emblem character is in the 2nd Fighter Pass.

 

[RileyXY1]

Given Ultimate is the 2nd Smash game with DLC, I think there's chance it may change about that especially with the 2nd Fighter Pass. Since there's a low chance a Fire Emblem character is in the 2nd Fighter Pass.

Gen 9 isn't even out yet so I don't think that there will be any new Pokemon characters.

 

[Knight Dude]

Make Frog the Mii costume for Chrono Trigger. We need his theme.

You can tell how much of the Smash community haven't touched a non-Nintendo console in their lives when you hear that Crash Bandicoot isn't iconic. Next I'll be hearing that Lara Croft is a literal who.



*nervously looks at Mario*


Yeah no it's not up for debate.

Yeah, Lara Croft's up there too. If her trailer had her fighting Samus like how Cloud got to fight Link in his character poster, it'd be a real pop-off moment.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

The only problem with a Sword and shield Pokemon is that there aren't any memorable locations in Galaar to base a stage out of. So we'd be stuck with something like "Pokemon stadium 3)

 

[Cosmic77]

Decidueye was generally the most popular starter last time (Japan notwithstanding), but who's the one before it? Sceptile?

Blaziken is more popular than Sceptile generally, Sceptile only got the boost due to typing.

When ORAS came out in 2014, people wanted Sceptile to be DLC. Blaziken should've been more popular than Sceptile even back then, but some people disagreed.

Then there was Decidueye, and again, there was a lot of disagreement on which starter was more popular. For example, in Japan, Primarina was the most popular final evo, while Incineroar was...decent. Rowlet was extremely popular, but its evolved forms didn't carry that support with them. It was hard to tell if Decidueye was genuinely popular or if people were just thinking of Smash.

And now we're looking at Rillaboom. From personal experience, I've seen more of a gap between it and the other two starters than I have with the Gen 3 and Gen 7 starters. Japan is infatuated with Cinderace, if the truckloads of fan art weren't any indication. Inteleon seems to have a decent following as well. Haven't seen that same level of support with Rillaboom.

 

[StormC]

Going back to the Crash convo, I'm not a diehard fan of the Crash games or anything, I enjoy the PS1 trilogy and CTR, but I wouldn't say I feel especially endeared to the series beyond that. However, I'd really like Crash for a number of reasons:

1. Probably the only plausible character that wouldn't be another humanoid, or humanoid-adjacent (Geno, Steve, etc).
2. His cartoony, animated nature makes him fit Smash perfectly, and again, stands out from other DLC candidates.
3. Another western character.
4. As a 90s kid, reliving the Mario/Sonic/Crash rivalry would be amazing.
5. A straightforward moveset would be an incentive, not a downside.

While there are other characters/series I would be interested in because they'd make an incredibly interesting fighter (Dante), they would bring an amazing assortment of soundtracks (Phoenix Wright), or I have a lot of nostalgia for their game (Geno), Crash definitely ticks a certain box that is now empty with Banjo and Kazooie behind us in Volume 1 - a pleasantly straightforward fighter that also functions as a throwback to late 90s cartoony animal platforming goodness. I don't think any other third party DLC character from a brand new series would be as exciting to me.

Overall, I'd be surprised if there are more than 1-2 western characters in this second Volume.

 

[Herocin]

Pokemon also doesn't get that kind of attention for DLC. Only Fire Emblem does.

Tbh that’s impossible to say. Pokemon only ever favours the most recent generation and as Smash 4 never had a new gen release while the game was still being supported they didn’t add a new Pokemon. That’s all we have to judge Pokemon and dlc. Mewtwo doesn’t really count because it was a veteran. Really judging by how Sakurai implements Pokemon into smash and making exceptions to the Pokemon series all the time and how big the series is, I doubt a few spirits (which were probably planned around E3 due to all the spirits being Pokemon shown in the June 5th direct) would stop Sakurai from adding one. The 2nd dlc pass was probably not decided upon around June so it doesn’t really affect a new Pokemon’s chances

 

[Cosmic77]

The only problem with a Sword and shield Pokemon is that there aren't any memorable locations in Galaar to base a stage out of. So we'd be stuck with something like "Pokemon stadium 3)

No memorable locations?

Spoiler

 

[shinhed-echi]

I feel lucky to have jumped from console to console of different companies. I got to experience many amazing mascot characters and games.
Some of them I did not have, but had other friends or family having them so Inwas still exposed to them.

Mario, Sonic, Pac-Man, Crash, Gex, Lara Croft, Cloud, Dante, Samanisuke, Doomguy, Duke Nukem, Gordon Freeman, Jak&Daxter, KOS-MOS, Ratchet, etc.

I am sour towards Master Chief for being Doomguy’s main competition, but not relating to Master Chief is completely on me for avoiding X-Box series like the plague for no reason (no reason being.. Final Fantasy). Too late now, but if a MC Collection comes to Switch, I’m not missing the boat this time.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The 2nd dlc pass was probably not decided upon around June so it doesn’t really affect a new Pokemon’s chances

Except it probably was decided on by the time the Sword and Shield spirit event happened.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a gen 8 shill anyway. They could try to attract a different crowd than "anyone who will eat up a new starter", like Pokemon Go players, Eeveelution fans, etc.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I think that the Sword & Shield Spirit event deconfirms all Sword & Shield Pokemon. If one was to be added then they would not have even had that Spirit event.

exactly

If we're talking Crash, I'm sure he'd make for an at least decent character. Not sure why people are saying he's not iconic enough though. As big as Mario or Sonic? Hell no. But he was pretty important during the early 3D days. And managed to stick around for a bit longer after that. I'd argue he's more iconic than Banjo-Kazooie. Granted of the three 3D era platformer franchises, I think he interests me the least, but I ain't about to act like he wasn't the PS1's posterboy.

Hell, Crash was one of those characters that was requested since Brawl, even during his worst days, while not nearly to the magnitude of Sonic and Mega Man, I think still says something.

Obviously, people give way more of a **** about him now because his remakes and racing games came out. Not to mention, with all the other types of characters that show up, more and more people are gonna get comfortable asking for seemingly "out-there" choices. With those two things in mind Of course people are going ask for Crash more than they did last game. I wouldn't consider him a bandwagon character.

Spyro's still the best choice though.

better idea...Smash should add both

Make Frog the Mii costume for Chrono Trigger. We need his theme.



Yeah, Lara Croft's up there too. If her trailer had her fighting Samus like how Cloud got to fight Link in his character poster, it'd be a real pop-off moment.

Croft vs Zamus...now that’s something the world isn't ready for

 

[Deleted member]

Good morning.

*sees people talking about Spirits for the umpteenth time*

Look, can't we just settle down for a minute and just wait for an actual Spirit promotion before we decide on a definite answer? This is going nowhere.

Yeah, Lara Croft's up there too. If her trailer had her fighting Samus like how Cloud got to fight Link in his character poster, it'd be a real pop-off moment.

Dear God, this'll be where feminists cry tears of joy, like me.

 

[Garteam]

I firmly believe folks misunderstand where the skepticism of spirit upgrades stems from.

It is the not the fact that pngs exist and that Sakurai is somehow not able to go past a png.

It’s the concept of what Spirits are, and the fact that some have been withheld for particular times and others have not, added onto the fact that they function as if they were actually the character themselves as a concept.

The argument is that for two straight scenarios of Smash DLC (as in, this is based on evidence and precedent) the only DLC newcomers to Smash have been 3rd party characters that bring a stage, music, and spirits (Ultimate), or relevant first party newcomers that just so happen to both be from recent Fire Emblem games. On top of that, every DLC choice has been a main protagonist from said game or franchise.

There’s also the fact that Sakurai has seemingly suggested in the past that non-playable roles count just as much as playable ones in the crossover. He also said he would like to continue the crossover, and “improve on the record”.

Now, it’s not a rule that this will “absolutely, positively” play out this way. But this idea? The fact that previous evidence suggests another potential outcome? There’s stuff out there, like the things I mentioned, that lead to one potential inclusion.

I would absolutely entertain the idea that spirits aren’t disconfirmations if someone proposed an argument, with evidence, that suggests it’s going to happen. I have seen nothing but hypothetical situations. But when I propose stuff based on actual precedent, actual evidence, I get hit with the invalid response of, “Lalalalalala fan rule fan rule fan rule”. Just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean it’s a fan rule, and never have I passed it off as such.

It should also be noted that the function of spirits is quite different from trophies, and based on the way they are added to the game, I don’t know that trophies are a proper equivalent argument. That could be up for discussion.

It’s not impossible for spirit upgrades. I never said it was. I have said in the past that it seems unlikely to happen based on what I’ve read. It’s one thing to want something to happen, but wanting it or saying, “X character is popular!” Is not a strong piece of evidence in this case, at least for me.

Alas, I can continue this later. Some folks have made decent points, but again, hypothetical outcomes aren’t evidence of likelihood. Responding to a question, when the question is based on precedent, with a hypothetical such as, “Well Sakurai could” is not evidence and does not have the same gravitas. At least, as an English teacher, I feel that way, lol.

PS- I DO want to point out that the whole time Season 1 was a thing, I explicitly said that while I thought Pick 5 would be 3rd party, Astral Chain or Three Houses could be added as an exception to what I believed would be a lack of first parties.

I wasn’t wrong.

I suppose I should throw my hat into the ring on this, and try to give an argument for Spirit upgrades (for spirits that were in the base game, at least). No calling out "Fan Rules!" or "We don't know what could happen" either, just my best defence.

Yes, spirits battles are intended to be a consolation prize for those who were unable to join the battle, but that's not their only purpose. First and foremost, Sakurai admits that the spirits mechanic was a pragmatic one. He wanted an easy means to create a large swath of single player content, as the majority of the development time was spent on creating as many fighters and stages as possible. To do this, he wanted a mode that could build off the large amount of work done in the multiplayer. The easiest way to do this was to create a huge number of short, repeatable battles utilizing the massive possible combinations of fighters, stages, and music. From here, the idea of having the fights be influenced from certain characters, simulating what a battle with them might be like in Smash.

As such, to make this system work, Sakurai likely needed a lot of characters, so the criteria to become a spirit was pretty low. Deciding a spirit seems to have mostly been "Can we legally use this character?" (implied to be an issue by the cut data for Jet Force Gemini spirits) and "Could we access high quality art of the character?". However, we could also infer a "Spirits cannot be fighters" rule, seeing how Piranha Plant didn't have a spirit in the base game. However, I really think this would only apply to the base roster and Fighter's Pass 1 (seeing how that was finalized before the game released), as that was intended to be the game's final roster until relatively recently. There wasn't a concern about possible conflicts for fighters and spirits, because they knew everyone who would be in the game, so it wouldn't make sense to gatekeep certain characters in a time where everyone counted solely for their potential. As such, we can think of spirits as a "this character would be cool, but we just didn't have the time" consolation, instead of a "this character simply doesn't work as a fighter" consolation, similar to Ridley's role on Pyrosphere in Smash for Wii U.

Additionally, I think is actually fair to consider spirits analogous to trophies. While there isn't an equivalent to spirit battles in the trophy system, Sakurai does state in the November 2018 Smash Direct that spirits serve to take trophies place as the primary collectable of the game. This idea is reflected in the fact that there are certain spirits that cannot be obtained in a spirit battle, suggesting that there is some value to spirits outside of their battles (in Sakurai's eyes). Likewise, trophies also had a slight consolation effect. This is mostly evident by Ivysaur's trophy in Smash for Wii U/3DS, which is an odd choice in a vacuum, given that Bulbasaur and Venusaur are both more popular and iconic than Ivysaur. However, Ivysaur's history as a Smash fighter was enough to let him win out over his other evolutions. As such, if Mewtwo and Lucas were able to get in despite having a consolation prize in Smash for Wii U/3DS, there is some precedent of characters becoming playable after receiving a consolation prize in the game's collectibles.

A lot of people also bring up how it doesn't make sense for a spirit and fighter to coexist in the game's lore, but that isn't a hard and fast rule. If K. Rool can equip Captain K. Rool or Baron K. Roolenstein despite being the same physical entity, then the internal logic of the spirits mode doesn't really effect a character being both a spirit and fighter. I know Captain K. Rool, Baron K. Roolenstein, and King K. Rool have different names, but they are ultimately the same character. Likewise, if naming really is an issue, they could just label the new spirit as "Character Name (Fighter)" to differentiate them from their base game spirit.

 

[Cosmic77]

Good morning.

*sees people talking about Spirits for the umpteenth time*

Look, can't we just settle down for a minute and just wait for an actual Spirit promotion before we decide on a definite answer? This is going nowhere.

That's not how speculation works. You're not supposed to wait until something gets confirmed before talking about it.

If that were true, then this thread shouldn't have discussed first-parties until Byleth got revealed because there was no definite proof we were getting any.

 

[RileyXY1]

Likewise, if naming really is an issue, they could just label the new spirit as "Character Name (Fighter)" to differentiate them from their base game spirit.

They didn't do that in Smash 4 when Mewtwo and Lucas were added, so their fighter and non-fighter trophies shared the same name.

 

[PSIGuy]

all these anti-Pokemon arguments are inane. "they already did spirits and where would the stage even take place???"

how about they include spirits of the new Pokemon in the DLC (Galar forms, legendaries, etc) and have one of the stages be one of the new locations from the DLC, like THE ISLE OF ARMOR or THE CROWN TUNDRA, the eponymous locations of the DLC expansions? it's not rocket science. a Sobble/Grookey/Scorbunny spirit doesn't exactly exclude Intelleon from getting in either, assuming they don't pull a Lucario and put in a non-starter shillmon instead. (kung fu bear? electric toad? they have options)

Sakurai's included Pokemon based solely on concept art before easily and there's an entire game worth of music they could include. It's actually nuts that people think it's sensible for Three Houses to be DLC but not Pokemon.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They didn't do that in Smash 4 when Mewtwo and Lucas were added, so their fighter and non-fighter trophies shared the same name.

Though every Spirit has their own name, so they'd probably have a rename like Character(Fighter Spirit) instead of just the character name.

That's the only core difference though among Trophies and Spirits. Some Trophies did have the same name. But it was very rare.

 

[SvartWolf]

people usually approach teh situation regarding Spirits and ATs in the wrong way.

mostly like it would be imposible by either design or coding to add "multiple roles" toa character, while the reason that we haven't got any spirit promotion is not because is "not posible", but because they were decided that those character wouldn't be in teh roster so they made them spirits/ATs.

When ultimate went gold sakurai already knew up until byleth inclusion, and likely planed alongside it. thats why everyone with an AT/Spirit role stayed that way, because they wewre given that role knowingly that they werent on base roster nor DLC. same with spirits events now that the season 2 is already decided.

It has nothing to do with if it can be coded or designed or not. or if it is imposible to have 2 different spirits with the same name, or changing teh name of a spirit.

Anyways...

I'm wondering if a petition could be a viable way to request small stuff for ultimate.

Obviously not characters or stages, not only people decided to use twitter for that, but the characters are already decided and that kind of petition brings the most toxic aspect of the community.

I'm think ing about more QoL small improvements, like a stage hazard toggle (along the battlefield and omega ones) and maybe tweaking what is considered a stage hazards in certain stages.

Like for example, i would love if stage hazards off turned off yellow devil (probably the biggest reason why stage hazards was needed in the first place) but kept he mobile platforms on teh megaman stage.

Or maybe a petition to work and release goemon, shovel knight, or bomberman tracks? :s

 

[Cosmic77]

Technically, they could even make Spirits of the starters and Legendaries again, provided that they separate them this time.

Also helps that the Gen 8 Pokemon didn't use the same type of artwork as the other Pokemon. For example, Zacian and Zamazenta's artwork should've been this.

Spoiler

 

[Icedragonadam]

I'm still on the Spirits not being promoted side and that the DLC characters will still be from games/franchises not in Ultimate yet.

1. Main thing about Spirits is that unlike trophies, they play an active part in Utlimate. Spirit battles simulate the characters from their origin games by possessing a character on the roster acting as if they really are the character. In a way that more or less acts as a consolation prize and the character being spirited are still added to the Ultimate crossover game.

2. The five Vol 1 characters were from series/game(for Byleth in this case) that didn't have content in Ultimate yet. And I doubt that won't change anytime soon. Sakurai is very insistent in "adding new worlds" to the game. And adding a character from a game that already has representation in some way in Ultimate won't really add to the crossover compared to a game that hasn't been added yet and it's been confirmed that each Vol 2 character will also have a stage, music, AND Spirit Board(which is an important factor here). The only 1st parties I only expect if Byleth is not an exception are from a new game in 2020, Dragalia Lost, or maybe Star Tropics.

 

[andree123]

Also helps that the Gen 8 Pokemon didn't use the same type of artwork as the other Pokemon. For example, Zacian and Zamazenta's artwork should've been this.

Spoiler

View attachment 259673View attachment 259675

They probably didn't exist at the time they are making spirits of them.

 

[shinhed-echi]

As someone who would potentially benefit from the “spirits deconfirm” side.

I don’t think Sakurai is going to work on a few character concepts, then realize he already has a spirit role for them.

The man could simply carry on with the character development and not having to explain a thing.

This could go either way. The man is a living library of video game knowledge. For all we know, there are characters out there both 1st and 3rd party that he can use that aren’t Spirits (And are flying under our radar) But again, he could also just include them with no explanation. Probably would include another png to go with them.

 

[PSIGuy]

It's not like there are many Spirits who are suddenly super relevant now and make sense as fighters when they didn't before, either. Even factoring in possible projects we don't know about there's non-Spirits who would work just as well.

• FE4 Remake? Arvis. Popular fire mage villain. Worth it for his reveal where he torches the other 8 FE reps to ashes. EVERYONE can get behind that!
• Xenoblade X port/sequel? Cross. Sakurai loves him a bland avatar with weapon potential.
• Mother project? Porky. Only technically a Spirit.

And Nintendo made the picks, so they're the ones who want things promoted. Are they really concerned about, say, the port of a beloved Wii game not doing well? Or Animal Crossing Beach Island Survivor underperforming? Enough to put in a character for them? Or would they rather solidify relationships with third parties and promote their Switch exclusive title?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Let's note we don't know if Nintendo made the picks for Season 2 as well. They probably did, but we have zero information.

We really know nothing beyond the fact they'll have stages and music. I can't remember if they noted MIi costumes and Spirit boards too among the advertisements(and to be fair, the chances of those not happening are slim to none).

I hope we find out within this month or February.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Hey guys back from watching Grizzly (1976) what we ta-

Oh I see were still discussing Spirits...

 

[Knight Dude]

Pokemon's a pretty huge franchise, so getting a DLC character, with Spirits of Pokemon that haven't been used yet isn't a wild idea. Given what Pokemon is, I wouldn't be too surprised if they got DLC, much like Fire Emblem. If I'm wrong about that, I wouldn't complain because there's no new Pokemon I'm super attached to this time around.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Pokemon's a pretty huge franchise, so getting a DLC character, with Spirits of Pokemon that haven't been used yet isn't a wild idea. Given what Pokemon is, I wouldn't be too surprised if they got DLC, much like Fire Emblem. If I'm wrong about that, I wouldn't complain because there's no new Pokemon I'm super attached to this time around.

Exactly why an Gen 8 Pokemon shouldn't be ruled out so quickly.