Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Cutie Gwen]

Am I the only one who doesn't really care what Papagenos thinks? Like, positive or negative. I mean, isn't that how people always defend Papagenos anyway? He's just a speculator who makes videos? A speculator not liking Byleth's inclusion doesn't seem remarkable to me.

Oh I'm just petty as **** as people kept telling me he was super reliable and honest despite being the same as Laxchris and Blocked Content but simply less frequent, especially as he kept saying "I'm not disappointed cause I got Banjo and nothing could disappoint me after Banjo also SAKURAI WHY ARE YOU SDING YOU'RE LETTING FIRE EMBLEM WIN BECAUSE OF YOUR BIAS! ARE CHARACTERS NOT FROM FIRE EMBLEM ALLOWED TO WIN?" Shame too, Baboom's obviously a lock and this is disrespectful to all the Baboom fans

 

[Hadokeyblade]

After looking at a list of FE games again, I do think it's fair for people to think they should try spacing out FE characters a little better.

• Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade -
• Fire Emblem - Nothing
• Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones - Nothing
• Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance -
• Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn -
• Fire Emblem: Awakening -
• Fire Emblem: Fates -
• Fire Emblem: Three Houses - Byleth

Personally, I think a lot of criticism and bitterness could've been avoided if Corrin wasn't added. Roy returning in Smash 4 is when most of the "Too many FE characters" started, and Corrin was sort of the straw that broke the camel's back.

I know Sakurai was just trying to be nice to his team, but honestly, I think Corrin did more harm to FE's image than good. Not that Sakurai would've known, but Corrin ended up being an unpopular character from an unpopular FE game.

I can't get over the fact that we have 3 awakening characters.

I can defend all the others because at least they come from different sections of the series
Marth (NES)
Roy (GBA)
Ike (Gamecube)
Robin (3DS)
Corrin (3DS)
Byleth (Switch)

But Chrom gets under my skin for some reason.

 

[Knight Dude]

Am I the only one who doesn't really care what Papagenos thinks? Like, positive or negative. I mean, isn't that how people always defend Papagenos anyway? He's just a speculator who makes videos? A speculator not liking Byleth's inclusion doesn't seem remarkable to me.

It's mostly due to him being seen as a face for a particular part of the community. It doesn't really matter that much, and I didn't watch that video, only saw those Discord images posted earlier. We shouldn't get hung up on it, since it's kind of pouring salt on an already salty person.

On the other hand, I think everyone should take this as a lesson.

Just take the L. Not everyday of your life will be a W.

 

[Guynamednelson]

not even cameos like Gil and Heihachi.

Does Lloyd not have an official 8-bit sprite? Because the Heihachi and Prince cameos in Pac-Man's taunt were recycled from Tekken Tag Tournament 2 and Me & My Katamari, respectively.

 

[Krankees]

Okay, forgive me one of these posts. Just one.

Here's my dream Vol. 2. Yes, it's incredibly self-indulgent. No, I don't think this would be a people-pleaser. But damn it, it would please me.

Spoiler: Pass 2 Image

View attachment 258688

Spoiler: Notes

Out of all of these, Travis Touchdown is the only one I'm truly, truly hoping I get in this upcoming pass. I know the others don't really have the most likelihood whether its due to competition (Dante and Monster Hunter both could easily get in over Phoenix, Square has plenty of reps including a second FF7 rep that could take out 2B, Kazuma Kiryu is a character that has really gotten super popular around the world and is one of Sega's flagship characters) or too self-indulgent (I could only see Stylist getting in if the 2020 Switch Style Savvy game rumors are true and even then she's super unlikely) but ah well. This would make me super happy, see some of my favorite games and series get in, or just add some interesting new worlds (tm) to Smash!

Does Monster Hunter still have a chance? I kind of assumed having Rathalos featured as a boss and an assist trophy deconfirmed it. I heard the Monster Hunter Mii costume is missing but I don't think that helps much imo.

 

[I.D.]

So does the newcomer speculation thread think we'll get any promotions at all?

Nobody other than people who want a specific promotion believes they are happening.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Does Lloyd not have an official 8-bit sprite? Because the Heihachi and Prince cameos in Pac-Man's taunt were recycled from Tekken Tag Tournament 2 and Me & My Katamari, respectively.

He does not.

 

[perfectchaos83]

Nobody other than people who want a specific promotion believes they are happening.

Same could have been said for a 1st party in the first pass.

 

[Knight Dude]

Does Monster Hunter still have a chance? I kind of assumed having Rathalos featured as a boss and an assist trophy deconfirmed it. I heard the Monster Hunter Mii costume is missing though but I don't think that helps much imo.

I mean, probably. But it's certainly a bit more plausible to add one in than an AT or even Spirit. There's no literal Monster Hunter in the game in some fashion to completely deny them from happening.

 

[Flyboy]

Does Monster Hunter still have a chance? I kind of assumed having Rathalos featured as a boss and an assist trophy deconfirmed it. I heard the Monster Hunter Mii costume is missing but I don't think that helps much imo.

I'd say yes to an extent. We don't really know who could be in pass 2, and the Hunter could bring music and a stage. I don't think they're likely, definitely not on Dante's level, but they aren't impossible.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So does the newcomer speculation thread think we'll get any promotions at all?

I personally don't, and the biggest thing supporting that is Lloyd or a Tales rep in general. It did not get any content in Smash Ultimate, not even cameos like Gil and Heihachi. This led many people to assume that Tales would be in the FP, obviously that was not the case; but Lloyd/Tales rep's chances are looking pretty good now with FP 2 as well as bits and pieces of additional evidence such as the trademarked logos and Namco trying to push the series a bit more.

If Tales does end up being in the second fighter's pass; then Sakurai made the choice to omit all Tales of content on purpose back in base game. I think Lloyd/Tales getting in kills most of the chance for someone like Geno or Rex/Waluigi/Isaac; who Sakurai decided to represent them in the base game (but not as fighters).

Personally, I'll believe it when I ****ing see it, there were no Piranha Plant spirits in the base game and just like Trophies and Stickers, Spirits clearly count towards representation for Sakurai, not to mention Spirits have more thought and care put into them than just slapping a jpeg in the game. What I think is especially damning though is Sakurai's 'new worlds' comment alongside being very proud of the whole 'largest video game crossover ever' thing. Upgrading a spirit or assist... Won't expand the crossover, people like pointing at Byleth to say "See! We can get Nintendo characters too!" But those people are forgetting Byleth and their game had literally nothing in Smash before their inclusion, thus, a new world, expanding on the crossovers. Let's say Shovel Knight gets in, I love the little blue trooper but they've already gotten 4 Spirits and an Assist, so by all means Shovel Knight already has representation. Seeing the Altair costume is also a concern as they hyped it up saying SMASH ULTIMATE X ASSASSIN'S CREED unless you're in a country under fire for political assassination, AssCreed is now officially represented in some manner so adding Ezio may not be considered expanding on the crossover in Sakurai's eyes as the franchise is already in the game with Japan's fanfav

 

[Jomosensual]

Okay, forgive me one of these posts. Just one.

Here's my dream Vol. 2. Yes, it's incredibly self-indulgent. No, I don't think this would be a people-pleaser. But damn it, it would please me.

Spoiler: Pass 2 Image

View attachment 258688

Spoiler: Notes

Out of all of these, Travis Touchdown is the only one I'm truly, truly hoping I get in this upcoming pass. I know the others don't really have the most likelihood whether its due to competition (Dante and Monster Hunter both could easily get in over Phoenix, Square has plenty of reps including a second FF7 rep that could take out 2B, Kazuma Kiryu is a character that has really gotten super popular around the world and is one of Sega's flagship characters) or too self-indulgent (I could only see Stylist getting in if the 2020 Switch Style Savvy game rumors are true and even then she's super unlikely) but ah well. This would make me super happy, see some of my favorite games and series get in, or just add some interesting new worlds (tm) to Smash!

Id be pretty happy with this

 

[Cosmic77]

I'll agree that the treatment FE got in Smash 4 is what plagues the current state of the Smash Fanbase's dislike of FE.

FE went from to Reps in Melee, to 2 Reps in Brawl to triple that in Wii U up to 6 and now 8 with Ultimate. It's just a case of Too much too fast.

I know this is a decisive solution, but if they weren't going to space out FE characters, then another way to handle it would be adding characters from other popular Nintendo franchises that ended up being neglected (in terms of characters). The only downside is that it would be at the expense of existing characters, so Sakurai could've added more Zelda, Kirby, DK, and XC characters. It would just be at the expense of a few "one character franchises", which includes third-parties.

It's all hypothetical though. I just hope they space them out better in the future.

I can't get over the fact that we have 3 awakening characters.

I can defend all the others because at least they come from different sections of the series
Marth (NES)
Roy (GBA)
Ike (Gamecube)
Robin (3DS)
Corrin (3DS)
Byleth (Switch)

But Chrom gets under my skin for some reason.

That's fine. I don't like Chrom much either, but that has more to do with him being an Echo of a semi-clone of a character who already has an Echo. Would've preferred giving that Echo spot to a franchise that didn't have any yet.

 

[KniteBlargh]

Okay, forgive me one of these posts. Just one.

Here's my dream Vol. 2. Yes, it's incredibly self-indulgent. No, I don't think this would be a people-pleaser. But damn it, it would please me.

Spoiler: Pass 2 Image

View attachment 258688

Spoiler: Notes

Out of all of these, Travis Touchdown is the only one I'm truly, truly hoping I get in this upcoming pass. I know the others don't really have the most likelihood whether its due to competition (Dante and Monster Hunter both could easily get in over Phoenix, Square has plenty of reps including a second FF7 rep that could take out 2B, Kazuma Kiryu is a character that has really gotten super popular around the world and is one of Sega's flagship characters) or too self-indulgent (I could only see Stylist getting in if the 2020 Switch Style Savvy game rumors are true and even then she's super unlikely) but ah well. This would make me super happy, see some of my favorite games and series get in, or just add some interesting new worlds (tm) to Smash!

I don't know, your dream pass seems a whole lot more reasonable than mine would be. xD Also, a Style Savvy character would be so wacky, I'd be kind of excited for that myself. Cool choices!

 

[Jomosensual]

Am I the only one who doesn't really care what Papagenos thinks? Like, positive or negative. I mean, isn't that how people always defend Papagenos anyway? He's just a speculator who makes videos? A speculator not liking Byleth's inclusion doesn't seem remarkable to me.

I wouldnt care if he wasnt a super prominent member of the speculation scene and enabling the National Dexers of the community to keep acting like entitled ****heads. We have enough of that already in Smash

 

[Cosmic77]

Personally, I'll believe it when I ****ing see it, there were no Piranha Plant spirits in the base game and just like Trophies and Stickers, Spirits clearly count towards representation for Sakurai, not to mention Spirits have more thought and care put into them than just slapping a jpeg in the game. What I think is especially damning though is Sakurai's 'new worlds' comment alongside being very proud of the whole 'largest video game crossover ever' thing. Upgrading a spirit or assist... Won't expand the crossover, people like pointing at Byleth to say "See! We can get Nintendo characters too!" But those people are forgetting Byleth and their game had literally nothing in Smash before their inclusion, thus, a new world, expanding on the crossovers. Let's say Shovel Knight gets in, I love the little blue trooper but they've already gotten 4 Spirits and an Assist, so by all means Shovel Knight already has representation. Seeing the Altair costume is also a concern as they hyped it up saying SMASH ULTIMATE X ASSASSIN'S CREED unless you're in a country under fire for political assassination, AssCreed is now officially represented in some manner so adding Ezio may not be considered expanding on the crossover in Sakurai's eyes as the franchise is already in the game with Japan's fanfav

To be fair, PP must've been in development for a long time. He's the only DLC character with a Palutena's Guidance, and his amiibo came out in the second wave.

I think they were anticipating him being a Fighter, so they purposely left out PP Spirits.

 

[perfectchaos83]

there were no Piranha Plant spirits in the base game

I'd argue that this is a disingenuous point, Largely because there's evidence that Plant was meant for Base game with his Victory fanfare being between Inkling and Incinearoar alongside a Palutena's Guidence. Plant didn't have a Spirit in Base game because his spirit was already planned.

What I think is especially damning though is Sakurai's 'new worlds' comment alongside being very proud of the whole 'largest video game crossover ever' thing.

New worlds isn't exactly what Sakurai said.

https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1169409252403769344

 

[Cutie Gwen]

To be fair, PP must've been in development for a long time. He's the only DLC character with a Palutena's Guidance, and his amiibo came out in the second wave.

I think they were anticipating him being a Fighter, so they purposely left out PP Spirits.

Which is my point entirely. As Plant shifted to DLC we no longer found any evidence there were Piranha Plant spirits, though judging by the Mario cast, extra spirits may have been in had the Plant not been unfinished at launch

New worlds isn't exactly what Sakurai said.

https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1169409252403769344

Hence why I also took Sakurai's personal pride into account, just in case the localizers for those statements didn't ask what Sakurai meant specifically before translating as Japanese, or rather languages as a whole are finicky like that

 

[N3ON]

Oh I'm just petty as **** as people kept telling me he was super reliable and honest despite being the same as Laxchris and Blocked Content but simply less frequent, especially as he kept saying "I'm not disappointed cause I got Banjo and nothing could disappoint me after Banjo also SAKURAI WHY ARE YOU SDING YOU'RE LETTING FIRE EMBLEM WIN BECAUSE OF YOUR BIAS! ARE CHARACTERS NOT FROM FIRE EMBLEM ALLOWED TO WIN?" Shame too, Baboom's obviously a lock and this is disrespectful to all the Baboom fans

It's mostly due to him being seen as a face for a particular part of the community. It doesn't really matter that much, and I didn't watch that video, only saw those Discord images posted earlier. We shouldn't get hung up on it, since it's kind of pouring salt on an already salty person.

On the other hand, I think everyone should take this as a lesson.

Just take the L. Not everyday of your life will be a W.

I wouldnt care if he wasnt a super prominent member of the speculation scene and enabling the National Dexers of the community to keep acting like entitled ****heads. We have enough of that already in Smash

The fanbase has just been getting too invested in public figures in general these days. I guess this is part of what comes of it.

Nobody other than people who want a specific promotion believes they are happening.

I want Isaac and Bomberman promoted but I think Waluigi and Geno would be the ones that happen, if any.

And I'm cool with those, they just wouldn't be my picks.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The fanbase has just been getting too invested in public figures in general these days. I guess this is part of what comes of it.


I want Isaac and Bomberman promoted but I think Waluigi and Geno would be the ones that happen, if any.

And I'm cool with those, they just wouldn't be my picks.

I like to see it as protesting against public figures by kicking them down from their pedestals, proving they're just as full of **** as we are and they know **** all. Except me cause Byleth's codename is Tetsu don't @ me

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The Palutena's Guidance is meaningless. PP was worked at the same time as other characters during the base game(which we don't know when it was even started either. It could've been worked on after all the other base game characters, and was always meant for DLC), which is when the voice actors were already fully available. Him bringing back the Guidances for other DLC would require re-hirings and cost a lot of extra money for it. It was easier to have them done at all the same time. Same reason 4 has no unique Guidances for the other DLC, who were finished way later. The only difference is Plant had a huge amount done during the base game's development while Mewtwo barely had a model at first to show off, and very little work done. DLC was also planned way later, and the Guidances were likely done in 4 a bit earlier than in Ultimate. Besides that, the base game itself had a core roster planned out(PP included), which can still include DLC since it was a hyper popular tactic. There was way more organization done this time. It's a different ball game(as is DLC this time around).

Where the data is only tells us exactly when the development was done. It can be taken as an implication, sure, but it's circumstancial evidence in this case. The data also tells us PP was worked on far later as is, which fits into why the data spots were where they were. The only real implication is that many characters were developed or finished far later in the cycle. It doesn't tell us what the actual plans are by any means.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

The thing I don't get about Cacomallow is why hold back on releasing them, when its clearly finished? Ultimate's Mii costume DLC's don't have any kind of release pattern. Just look at how we're getting Capcom and Ubisoft costumes instead of Nintendo costumes with Byleth.

Also why leak Mii costumes that very few people will actually care instead of a character or at least an actual cool Mii costume like Cuphead?

Finally why hasn't Nintendo taken any of that footage down? You can easily watch it on Youtube still because Nintendo never DMCA those videos, while at the same time they were taking down leak videos of Sword and Shield.

Because how else can I confirm the existence of the characters I want? It has to be real because I want Doomslayer and/or Geno and this ""leak"" proves that they're in!

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The Palutena's Guidance is meaningless. PP was worked at the same time as other characters during the base game(which we don't know when it was even started either. It could've been worked on after all the other base game characters, and was always meant for DLC), which is when the voice actors were already fully available. Him bringing back the Guidances for other DLC would require re-hirings and cost a lot of extra money for it. It was easier to have them done at all the same time. Same reason 4 has no unique Guidances for the other DLC, who were finished way later. The only difference is Plant had a huge amount done during the base game's development while Mewtwo barely had a model at first to show off, and very little work done. DLC was also planned way later, and the Guidances were likely done in 4 a bit earlier than in Ultimate. Besides that, the base game itself had a core roster planned out(PP included), which can still include DLC since it was a hyper popular tactic. There was way more organization done this time. It's a different ball game(as is DLC this time around).

Where the data is only tells us exactly when the development was done. It can be taken as an implication, sure, but it's circumstancial evidence in this case. The data also tells us PP was worked on far later as is, which fits into why the data spots were where they were. The only real implication is that many characters were developed or finished far later in the cycle. It doesn't tell us what the actual plans are by any means.

If you already have plans to rehire for 1 character you can also knock out the rest of the recordings at the same time, DLC was clearly not planned until later in development, the team didn't plan on Piranha Plant not being finished until post launch and there's another point to argue Plant was planned for base game, Pokemon Trainer. Their classic mode has the Smash cast emulate specific Pokemon without actually featuring the Pokemon, right? So how come the grass Pokemon is simply Ivysaur instead of the Pikmin? Perhaps another grass character was meant to take that role instead but got cut last minute...

 

[GoodGrief741]

Oh rad it's the Blade Runner page.

Okay, forgive me one of these posts. Just one.

Here's my dream Vol. 2. Yes, it's incredibly self-indulgent. No, I don't think this would be a people-pleaser. But damn it, it would please me.

Spoiler: Pass 2 Image

View attachment 258688

Spoiler: Notes

Out of all of these, Travis Touchdown is the only one I'm truly, truly hoping I get in this upcoming pass. I know the others don't really have the most likelihood whether its due to competition (Dante and Monster Hunter both could easily get in over Phoenix, Square has plenty of reps including a second FF7 rep that could take out 2B, Kazuma Kiryu is a character that has really gotten super popular around the world and is one of Sega's flagship characters) or too self-indulgent (I could only see Stylist getting in if the 2020 Switch Style Savvy game rumors are true and even then she's super unlikely) but ah well. This would make me super happy, see some of my favorite games and series get in, or just add some interesting new worlds (tm) to Smash!

At this point I can say with certainty, you and I have very similar tastes in characters.

So does the newcomer speculation thread think we'll get any promotions at all?

I personally don't, and the biggest thing supporting that is Lloyd or a Tales rep in general. It did not get any content in Smash Ultimate, not even cameos like Gil and Heihachi. This led many people to assume that Tales would be in the FP, obviously that was not the case; but Lloyd/Tales rep's chances are looking pretty good now with FP 2 as well as bits and pieces of additional evidence such as the trademarked logos and Namco trying to push the series a bit more.

If Tales does end up being in the second fighter's pass; then Sakurai made the choice to omit all Tales of content on purpose back in base game. I think Lloyd/Tales getting in kills most of the chance for someone like Geno or Rex/Waluigi/Isaac; who Sakurai decided to represent them in the base game (but not as fighters).

I firmly believe that we will.

I can't get over the fact that we have 3 awakening characters.

I can defend all the others because at least they come from different sections of the series
Marth (NES)
Roy (GBA)
Ike (Gamecube)
Robin (3DS)
Corrin (3DS)
Byleth (Switch)

But Chrom gets under my skin for some reason.

Chrom is the main character for Awakening, if anything, it's Robin and Lucina who should be irking you.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Okay, forgive me one of these posts. Just one.

Here's my dream Vol. 2. Yes, it's incredibly self-indulgent. No, I don't think this would be a people-pleaser. But damn it, it would please me.

Spoiler: Pass 2 Image

View attachment 258688

Spoiler: Notes

Out of all of these, Travis Touchdown is the only one I'm truly, truly hoping I get in this upcoming pass. I know the others don't really have the most likelihood whether its due to competition (Dante and Monster Hunter both could easily get in over Phoenix, Square has plenty of reps including a second FF7 rep that could take out 2B, Kazuma Kiryu is a character that has really gotten super popular around the world and is one of Sega's flagship characters) or too self-indulgent (I could only see Stylist getting in if the 2020 Switch Style Savvy game rumors are true and even then she's super unlikely) but ah well. This would make me super happy, see some of my favorite games and series get in, or just add some interesting new worlds (tm) to Smash!

That's damn good Fly.

But then again you and I largely have the same tastes so of course I'd agree with you. Only thing I'd do is swap Heihachi for Lloyd since I still feel Sakurai can't work out Tekken in Smash in a way he's confident about, but even then I love this pass.

Let's hope Stylist gets in since that'd be hype as ****.

 

[RetroBro]

I think one thing to keep in mind is the fact that while some folks might absolutely detest Byleth now, giving them a shot after they release might change some minds.

I don’t know. Plenty of folks I know who haven’t played Three Houses think the gameplay looks cool and interesting.

Either way, I’m just excited for the music, stage...more excited for Byleth than I thought I would be.

Yo, 3 houses is awesome. But any of the house leaders would've been better than the avatar pick. I've played through the game with my girlfriend and I really really love some of the characters. The silent protagonist is kinda rubbing me the wrong way. Edelgard .....

 

[Knight Dude]

Now that I think of it, I never got the plant. I kind of forgot to get it when it was free.

The fanbase has just been getting too invested in public figures in general these days. I guess this is part of what comes of it.


I want Isaac and Bomberman promoted but I think Waluigi and Geno would be the ones that happen, if any.

And I'm cool with those, they just wouldn't be my picks.

I usually try to avoid roasting people on **** like that, unless they are particularly annoying. Try to be the bigger man and all that.

 

[RetroBro]

Personally, I'll believe it when I ****ing see it, there were no Piranha Plant spirits in the base game and just like Trophies and Stickers, Spirits clearly count towards representation for Sakurai, not to mention Spirits have more thought and care put into them than just slapping a jpeg in the game. What I think is especially damning though is Sakurai's 'new worlds' comment alongside being very proud of the whole 'largest video game crossover ever' thing. Upgrading a spirit or assist... Won't expand the crossover, people like pointing at Byleth to say "See! We can get Nintendo characters too!" But those people are forgetting Byleth and their game had literally nothing in Smash before their inclusion, thus, a new world, expanding on the crossovers. Let's say Shovel Knight gets in, I love the little blue trooper but they've already gotten 4 Spirits and an Assist, so by all means Shovel Knight already has representation. Seeing the Altair costume is also a concern as they hyped it up saying SMASH ULTIMATE X ASSASSIN'S CREED unless you're in a country under fire for political assassination, AssCreed is now officially represented in some manner so adding Ezio may not be considered expanding on the crossover in Sakurai's eyes as the franchise is already in the game with Japan's fanfav

I'm gonna argue with you again in good spirit.


I'll put it out simply and plainly. Sakurai has historically changed his mind and done things that have defied expectations consistently throughout smash's lifetime. There are NO rules when it comes to this man.

 

[ZelDan]

With all the FE controversy and talks about Fire Emblem being "overrepped", I decided to just think to myself about what FE games/characters stood out beyond others, or basically which FE games would be the best to have a playable rep or are most """deserving""" within the context of Fire Emblem:

1. from FE 1 and 3 because duh

2. Fire Emblem 4 could actually be pretty worthy of a rep, based on the fact that it seems to be one of the most popular or beloved of the classic FE games, and the most talked about of the Japan-only games, atleast from what I've witnessed.

3. Fire Emblem 7 definitely is deserving of a rep considering it was the first FE to release outside japan and thus is many non-Japanese fans first exposure to the game or what got them into FE in the first place. of the FE7 lords I'd prefer Lyn, but Hector is pretty popular and demanded too, so *shrug*.

4. I think is actually a good choice. Despite the Tellius games not being very successful at all IIRC, Ike is the one of the only ones whose game got a sequel, the other ones being Marth with FE1 and 3, and I guess FE4 and 5 are actually related (found out sometime recently). Also despite being less successful compared to other games in the series, they are still well-liked by those that did play them (Well, Path of Radiance atleast, Radiant Dawn was a bit more divisive)

5. Speaking of the Tellius games, one character I'd likely bring over along with Ike is Black Knight. I mean, the other big Nintendo franchises have their villains or anti-heroes or whatever, so why not FE? And as far as villains go, I'm pretty sure Black Knight is the most popular.

6. Awakening is another easy choice for a FE rep considering, you know, it basically saved FE from being shackled and ignored in Nintendo's dark, scary basement along with F-Zero, Golden Sun, and other franchises. While Awakening does deserve to rep Fire Emblem, I sure as hell don't think it needed 3 characters. 1 character absolutely, maaaybe 2 for being the franchise's savior (that and if I'm thinking the Tellius games could have 2 characters, then Awakening sure as hell probably deserves it...) , but 3 was just overkill imo.

7. Three Houses is a good contender for a playable character too, really. Considering it's the best-selling in the series to date, being incredibly well received, and even managed to appeal and unify to both newer FE fans and older ones (or so I hear anyways). The character I personally wanted was Edelgard, but either of the other House leaders could have been cool as well.

So yeah, thinking over the entire franchise and all of it's main games, I could think up atleast 7 characters that could properly represent Fire Emblem. It could even be stretched to 8 if Awakening were to have just 2. WHich I guess leads me to my main feelings and what have usually always been my main feelings when it comes to FE in Smash. I don't think it's wrong that Fire Elmbelm has a high amount of playable characters, and with all I said above I cannot say I'm necessarily against FE having 8 reps.

Of course the issue is is that not all the characters or games from the FE series that I listed above are the ones that actually got playable characters. We got Roy who, while the nolstalgic Melee fan in me kinda appreciates him, isn't exactly one of the more popular or liked of the FE lords from Fire Emblem fans. We got Corrin who was from an incredibly divisive and controversial FE game, and while Awakening should have gotten a playable rep, again, 3 was just too much. It doesn't help that there is alot of redundancy between the FE characters we have in terms of moveset or how half the characters we have are very similar (not completely similar, but similar enough to still be kind of disapappointing). It's especially unfortunate because it's not like Lucina or Chrom couldn't be more unique; they could have been designed around their promoted class which wields both swords and lances, for example.

I guess to simplify my feelings, the issue with Fire Emblem I don't think is "over-representation", but that "it isn't as best represented as it could be." I'm fine with Fire Emblem having 8 character slots, but some of those slots before Byleth were not used up in the most ideal way.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm gonna argue with you again in good spirit.


I'll put it out simply and plainly. Sakurai has historically changed his mind and done things that have defied expectations consistently throughout smash's lifetime. There are NO rules when it comes to this man.

I'm aware he's changed his mind on stuff a lot, I was one of those crazy loons in the Ridley thread back in 2014 (God I ****ing regret everything around that period of my life) but again, I need to see the change to actually believe in it. Besides, I feel it's better to be cautiously pessimistic than outright optimistic

 

[Garteam]

So does the newcomer speculation thread think we'll get any promotions at all?

I personally don't, and the biggest thing supporting that is Lloyd or a Tales rep in general. It did not get any content in Smash Ultimate, not even cameos like Gil and Heihachi. This led many people to assume that Tales would be in the FP, obviously that was not the case; but Lloyd/Tales rep's chances are looking pretty good now with FP 2 as well as bits and pieces of additional evidence such as the trademarked logos and Namco trying to push the series a bit more.

If Tales does end up being in the second fighter's pass; then Sakurai made the choice to omit all Tales of content on purpose back in base game. I think Lloyd/Tales getting in kills most of the chance for someone like Geno or Rex/Waluigi/Isaac; who Sakurai decided to represent them in the base game (but not as fighters).

Base game spirits don't seem like they'd be an issue. As far as Sakurai was concerned when choosing the spirits, if they weren't in the base game or the fighter's pass they were never getting into Ultimate, so I don't think he went out of his way to kick potentially interesting characters off the spirit list just because they may be a decent fighter in the future. As such, now that there is an opportunity for more fighters, I highly doubt he's gonna turn what would otherwise be an interesting character because they have a .jpeg in the game.

Spirits added in updates are a little more iffy. Were they finalized after the lineup of Fighter's Pass 2 was decided? They're most likely out, as Sakurai would've just saved them for their DLC pack. Were they finalized before the lineup of Fighter's Pass 2 was decided? They might be able to slip in for reasons similar to the base game.

Assist trophies I'm not too sure about. On the one hand, there are mechanisms in Ultimate that turn off certain assists in certain situations, so it's not like there could be a chance the fighter and assist trophy versions of a character could run into each other (which may not even be a big deal to begin with, if Chrom is anything to go by). Likewise, there's a handful of assist trophies that have enough demand behind them to justify an upgrade (Waluigi, Issac, and Skull Kid are the big ones). However, we've never seen it happen before, so I wouldn't bet good money on it. However, we've seen this sort of precedent broken before, so never say never.

 

[Icewolff92]

I can't believe PapaGenos would do something like this I am literally shaking and crying and pissing and ****ting right now this can't be happening.

For real though it's quite a shame for him to be acting this way while you may have your differing opinions on the guy I always looked up to him and I thought he was a cool and chill guy though I guess that initial reaction was wrong. It's really quite sad.

Yeah, his activities during that video made me lost respect for him and looking by the dislike ration, I¨m not the only one.
Guys like Max has a perfect example of being disappointed but taken it more mature and respectful. Papa acted like an entitled brat as if Sakurai as yet to put the fan favorites he recently did. or he removed Banjo for the sake of Byleth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-WqouNW32o

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If you already have plans to rehire for 1 character you can also knock out the rest of the recordings at the same time, DLC was clearly not planned until later in development, the team didn't plan on Piranha Plant not being finished until post launch and there's another point to argue Plant was planned for base game, Pokemon Trainer. Their classic mode has the Smash cast emulate specific Pokemon without actually featuring the Pokemon, right? So how come the grass Pokemon is simply Ivysaur instead of the Pikmin? Perhaps another grass character was meant to take that role instead but got cut last minute...

And PP could've been thought of later on as the first DLC character, never part of the base game development plan.

The last thing is getting a bit too conspiracy theory for my taste. I highly doubt it was going to be something besides Ivysaur. That fit just fine. Besides that, the Pikmin are elemental-based and fit way less due to their purpose. The point was Grass, not plants alone. None of the Pikmin actually represents Grass types very well, and they're the whole point of the moveset as is. Olimar is kind of it, but that's trying too hard to justify it when Ivysaur fit way better. It'd be nice to have actual Grass characters beyond Ivysaur at that point(with PP coming way later, and probably was meant purely for DLC), not those who barely fit that mold(Pikmin so far are simply based upon Fire, Water, Electric, Poison, and whatever the hell Purple counts for, plus Flying with Wing Pikmin). But hey, I'd like Sceptile or Grovyle, so eh.

PP's recording could've been done near the end of development, before they could negotiate fully for any other DLC characters. There's a difference between being "planned" for the base game and having time to start development for it. There's a strong chance that the DLC was decided upon, with PP being first thought of as a bonus akin to Mewtwo, and they can't really secure the rights all at once for the rest, which leaves the voice actors with no options to try and do anything but a generic guidance. He'd have to rehire them around November when everything is finished. If the rumors of March 2018 was when DLC was starting to be negotiated for, that's after he finished the core Guidances and had one set aside for the generic stuff, just like in 4. PP, again, just started development to begin a bit before or was already the first DLC chosen as is and started a bit later. PP is highly unique, so can take up to a year to make as well. Of course it started later, but again, why would a DLC character start super early to be ready for base game? It doesn't fit the narrative of its DLC nature. If it was going to be base, it'd make more sense to start it wayyyyyyyy earlier like everybody but Echoes/Semi-clones/clones, who take way less work in comparison. In the end, it makes sense it was preset for DLC early on. Even the development schedule fits way better.

 

[Strider_Bond00J]

When it comes to new first-party candidates, one underrated, hilarious/wtf yet still make decent sense would probably be the Ring Fit Adventure Protagonist. Ring Fit's surprisingly fun and a worthy successor to Wii Fit and while you could argue that it'd be easy to ignore them since Wii Fit Trainer already has the exercise thing going for them, there's probably enough available to the Ring Fit Adventurer alongside Ring to maybe give them a chance as a unique fighter. Perhaps some things may overlap between the Adventurer and Trainer, but there's plenty of stuff that could be played around with.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

And PP could've been thought of later on as the first DLC character, never part of the base game development plan.

The last thing is getting a bit too conspiracy theory for my taste. I highly doubt it was going to be something besides Ivysaur. That fit just fine. Besides that, the Pikmin are elemental-based and fit way less due to their purpose. The point was Grass, not plants alone. None of the Pikmin actually represents Grass types very well, and they're the whole point of the moveset as is. Olimar is kind of it, but that's trying too hard to justify it when Ivysaur fit way better. It'd be nice to have actual Grass characters beyond Ivysaur at that point(with PP coming way later, and probably was meant purely for DLC), not those who barely fit that mold(Pikmin so far are simply based upon Fire, Water, Electric, Poison, and whatever the hell Purple counts for, plus Flying with Wing Pikmin). But hey, I'd like Sceptile or Grovyle, so eh.

PP's recording could've been done near the end of development, before they could negotiate fully for any other DLC characters. There's a difference between being "planned" for the base game and having time to start development for it. There's a strong chance that the DLC was decided upon, with PP being first thought of as a bonus akin to Mewtwo, and they can't really secure the rights all at once for the rest, which leaves the voice actors with no options to try and do anything but a generic guidance. He'd have to rehire them around November when everything is finished. If the rumors of March 2018 was when DLC was starting to be negotiated for, that's after he finished the core Guidances and had one set aside for the generic stuff, just like in 4. PP, again, just started development to begin a bit before or was already the first DLC chosen as is and started a bit later. PP is highly unique, so can take up to a year to make as well. Of course it started later, but again, why would a DLC character start super early to be ready for base game? It doesn't fit the narrative of its DLC nature. If it was going to be base, it'd make more sense to start it wayyyyyyyy earlier like everybody but Echoes/Semi-clones/clones, who take way less work in comparison. In the end, it makes sense it was preset for DLC early on. Even the development schedule fits way better.

So you're dismissing my arguments as conspiracy theories while... arguing your own conspiracy theory with nothing to actually support your evidence beyond "I'm Irene and you're wrong". Ok.

 

[Inawordyes]

You know, in watching the Direct back while watching reaction videos, something really cool that I noticed is that Femleth has a different idle than Maleth - whereas the male version kind holds the sword at a downwards angle down his back, the female version holds it more up and behind towards the back of her neck.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the first character to have slot-specific idles, right? I'm super excited to see if this means that one-slot costume modding can take a leap forward once Byleth releases and people see how they were put together coding-wise.

 

[Icewolff92]

With all the FE controversy and talks about Fire Emblem being "overrepped", I decided to just think to myself about what FE games/characters stood out beyond others, or basically which FE games would be the best to have a playable rep or are most """deserving""" within the context of Fire Emblem:

1. from FE 1 and 3 because duh

2. Fire Emblem 4 could actually be pretty worthy of a rep, based on the fact that it seems to be one of the most popular or beloved of the classic FE games, and the most talked about of the Japan-only games, atleast from what I've witnessed.

3. Fire Emblem 7 definitely is deserving of a rep considering it was the first FE to release outside japan and thus is many non-Japanese fans first exposure to the game or what got them into FE in the first place. of the FE7 lords I'd prefer Lyn, but Hector is pretty popular and demanded too, so *shrug*.

4. I think is actually a good choice. Despite the Tellius games not being very successful at all IIRC, Ike is the one of the only ones whose game got a sequel, the other ones being Marth with FE1 and 3, and I guess FE4 and 5 are actually related (found out sometime recently). Also despite being less successful compared to other games in the series, they are still well-liked by those that did play them (Well, Path of Radiance atleast, Radiant Dawn was a bit more divisive)

5. Speaking of the Tellius games, one character I'd likely bring over along with Ike is Black Knight. I mean, the other big Nintendo franchises have their villains or anti-heroes or whatever, so why not FE? And as far as villains go, I'm pretty sure Black Knight is the most popular.

6. Awakening is another easy choice for a FE rep considering, you know, it basically saved FE from being shackled and ignored in Nintendo's dark, scary basement along with F-Zero, Golden Sun, and other franchises. While Awakening does deserve to rep Fire Emblem, I sure as hell don't think it needed 3 characters. 1 character absolutely, maaaybe 2 for being the franchise's savior (that and if I'm thinking the Tellius games could have 2 characters, then Awakening sure as hell probably deserves it...) , but 3 was just overkill imo.

7. Three Houses is a good contender for a playable character too, really. Considering it's the best-selling in the series to date, being incredibly well received, and even managed to appeal and unify to both newer FE fans and older ones (or so I hear anyways). The character I personally wanted was Edelgard, but either of the other House leaders could have been cool as well.

So yeah, thinking over the entire franchise and all of it's main games, I could think up atleast 7 characters that could properly represent Fire Emblem. It could even be stretched to 8 if Awakening were to have just 2. WHich I guess leads me to my main feelings and what have usually always been my main feelings when it comes to FE in Smash. I don't think it's wrong that Fire Elmbelm has a high amount of playable characters, and with all I said above I cannot say I'm necessarily against FE having 8 reps.

Of course the issue is is that not all the characters or games from the FE series that I listed above are the ones that actually got playable characters. We got Roy who, while the nolstalgic Melee fan in me kinda appreciates him, isn't exactly one of the more popular or liked of the FE lords from Fire Emblem fans. We got Corrin who was from an incredibly divisive and controversial FE game, and while Awakening should have gotten a playable rep, again, 3 was just too much. It doesn't help that there is alot of redundancy between the FE characters we have in terms of moveset or how half the characters we have are very similar (not completely similar, but similar enough to still be kind of disapappointing). It's especially unfortunate because it's not like Lucina or Chrom couldn't be more unique; they could have been designed around their promoted class which wields both swords and lances, for example.

I guess to simplify my feelings, the issue with Fire Emblem I don't think is "over-representation", but that "it isn't as best represented as it could be." I'm fine with Fire Emblem having 8 character slots, but some of those slots before Byleth were not used up in the most ideal way.

If you ask me, this is how FE should have be repped

Marth
Ike (wielding Urvan)
Black Knight
Robin
Lucina (making her close to what Chrom is)
Byleth

Arguing about if Tikki should have been added or not for the sake of rep Manakates

 

[perfectchaos83]

You know, in watching the Direct back while watching reaction videos, something really cool that I noticed is that Femleth has a different idle than Maleth - whereas the male version kind holds the sword at a downwards angle down his back, the female version holds it more up and behind towards the back of her neck.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the first character to have slot-specific idles, right? I'm super excited to see if this means that one-slot costume modding can take a leap forward once Byleth releases and people see how they were put together coding-wise.

Inkling has different Idle poses.

 

[Nesysli]

I remember watching the trailer and in seconds I immediately knew it was Three Houses but it showed Byleth already and I was hoping it would do something different and Edelgard (or really Dimitri or Claude too) would show up then the splash screen would pop it signaling she's in, but nope. Unfortunately most Japanese RPG characters are silent protagonists which when playing their games allows the player to view things through them. It's fine within the context of the game but can seem kinda lifeless outside of it for some. Regardless, it's okay if Byleth isn't your cup of tea but it's no need to act sour. Regardless of DLC, whenever I pick up Ultimate they are SO MANY fun characters to play as already! It's truly not seeing the forest for this one tree in front of you that you're looking at way too close.

 

[Animegamingnerd]

You know, in watching the Direct back while watching reaction videos, something really cool that I noticed is that Femleth has a different idle than Maleth - whereas the male version kind holds the sword at a downwards angle down his back, the female version holds it more up and behind towards the back of her neck.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the first character to have slot-specific idles, right? I'm super excited to see if this means that one-slot costume modding can take a leap forward once Byleth releases and people see how they were put together coding-wise.

I think Inkling does. But I could be wrong.