Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Michael the Spikester]

Considering Sakurai referred to "Everyone is Here" as the Pandora's Box of the series, I think he knows too that there's not really anywhere to go but up. “I question what we’ll do with the next title, and I feel that having ‘all characters playable’ may have been a Pandora’s Box that could ruin possibilities for what’s next in the series.”
You cut Pichu or Young Link or Ice Climbers? You got people upset that these characters are gone. The next game is a reboot and has a significantly smaller roster than Ultimate? People are just gonna stick with Ultimate. This isn't even bringing up that it is possible to declone characters and make them more unique without rebooting the entire series (Luigi in Melee, Falco in Brawl).
A lot of Ultimate's dev time was spent future-proofing characters for the next game, so cutting any of them for reasons other than third party issues make zero sense, would be a waste of the work they did to bring those characters back, and would just end up making people angry.

This is why they should end Smash here or rather keep updating it and releasing it for future consoles.

 

[Curious Villager]

Yeah its hard to know what they might end up doing for the next title.

A reboot with a smaller roster might please competitive players, especially if there is a heavier emphasis on balance, but most casuals will probably not see a point in buying a new game with a vastly smaller character and stage roster, especially if most of their favourites are gone.
Even if they where to cut some of the more minor veterans in the roster will probably still upset people and start campaigning for them to return.

Best case scenario is to build on from this game to the next but that will probably make things harder to balance too. Not to mention depending on how powerful the next console is, keeping Ultimate as is might also make the game look more outdated on the next hardware so they will probably have to update the visuals and models too.

Perhaps a longer dev cycle might work, but I don't know how willing Sakurai is to go for another long round on making Smash again. Assuming he will be on the helm again.

 

[RileyXY1]

A reboot with a smaller roster might please competitive players, especially if there is a heavier emphasis on balance, but most casuals will probably not see a point in buying a new game with a vastly smaller character and stage roster, especially if most of their favourites are gone.
Even if they where to cut some of the more minor veterans in the roster will probably upset people and start campaigning for them to return.

You're right. The decision to bring back every veteran has made it harder for people to accept a future Smash game with a smaller roster.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

A reboot with a smaller roster might please competitive players, especially if there is a heavier emphasis on balance, but most casuals will probably not see a point in buying a new game with a vastly smaller character and stage roster, especially if most of their favourites are gone.
Even if they where to cut some of the more minor veterans in the roster will probably upset people and start campaigning for them to return.

Even if a soft reboot of the franchise took a buzz saw to the current roster you can't go much lower than 45 veterans* without the roster having issues with series representation. Even a roster of 45 veterans has to get rid of beloved newcomers like Ridley, and series staples like Diddy Kong, Sheik, and Zero Suit Samus**. Add in the 16-18 newcomers for the game and you still haven't gotten rid of your scope issue for re-tooling and re-balancing the veterans.

...keeping Ultimate as is might also make the game look more outdated on the next hardware so they will probably have to update the visuals and models too.

Perhaps a longer dev cycle might work, but I don't know how willing Sakurai is to go for another long round on making Smash again. Assuming he will be on the helm again.

The next game will definitely need a different artstyle if they're going to be selling us a new game. People aren't going to be even remotely happy if it looks like a port unless it is one.

It would be interesting if they ported Super Smash Bros. Ultimate's core engine and characters, but rebuilt everything else from the ground up. This would allow them to tweak the characters, and game mechanics as desired and keep all of the stages without sacrificing everything else.


*I'm not including echo fighters.
**I'm also assuming Bayonetta and Joker are the only currently known 3rd parties that aren't returning.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I’d just use Ultimate to make a new game, cutting out anything unneeded for the next game (character cuts included, but only those who would be either reasonable or easy to make into an alt)

**I'm also assuming Bayonetta and Joker are the only currently known 3rd parties that aren't returning.

With Bayonetta pretty much being a half-Nintendo character and Joker very popular with Sakurai, don’t think any SEGA character would be getting cut

 

[RileyXY1]

With Bayonetta pretty much being a half-Nintendo character and Joker very popular with Sakurai, don’t think any SEGA character would be getting cut

Yeah. I actually think that Cloud will be the most likely third party to get cut, if the next game has cuts.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

With Bayonetta pretty much being a half-Nintendo character and Joker very popular with Sakurai, don’t think any SEGA character would be getting cut

Yeah. I actually think that Cloud will be the most likely third party to get cut, if the next game has cuts.

True, but if there were cuts to the 3rd party characters, then I think Bayonetta and Joker would be the first to go. I was also assuming that Nintendo was able to secure the rights to all intended 3rd party characters for simplicity's sake, which is something I probably should have mentioned. Cloud is definitely a big question mark in terms of whether or not they could get him back.

 

[RileyXY1]

True, but if there were cuts to the 3rd party characters, then I think Bayonetta and Joker would be the first to go. I was also assuming that Nintendo was able to secure the rights to all intended 3rd party characters for simplicity's sake, which is something I probably should have mentioned. Cloud is definitely a big question mark in terms of whether or not they could get him back.

I highly doubt that Bayonetta is ever getting cut. She's essentially an honorary Nintendo character at this point.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Yeah. I actually think that Cloud will be the most likely third party to get cut, if the next game has cuts.

If Cloud gets cut, it wouldn’t be a big loss compared to other characters

I highly doubt that Bayonetta is ever getting cut. She's essentially an honorary Nintendo character at this point.

Her and Sonic are pretty much Nintendo characters at this point in their lives (though of course Sonic games will still be on other platforms, but not as much as they would on a Nintendo). Joker is the ride or die character who has way too much going for him to get cut

 

[Deathcarter]

The next Smash would seriously need Mortal Kombat level production values and single player content as well as not **** the bed with the online component to even have a chance of justifying a large number of cuts to the mass audience. I'd argue that they'd be better off having a larger development time to compensate for any potential major engine changes to keep most of the veterans than trying to sell a roster with 1/3rd or one half of the roster gone.

 

[Will]

oh man, the "everyone is cut" theory

i dont believe the reboot theory man, sorry. usually these reboots from what i've seen happened because the lore got too ****ing wacky and they just decided to start fresh so they didn't have to keep up with it anymore. though if you really wanted a "bare essentials" nintendo fighting game, you could easily cut down half the roster, especially third parties. though what's "essential" is always opinionated and up to the director

like if i had the option to choose it would probably be based on recognition and genre, but if we're keeping smaller size as a focus then

= mario platformer
= h o r r o r
= DK
= zelda
= metroid
= kirby
= pokemon
= FE (so basically i put marth as poster boy, and robin/chrom cause Awakening sold like hotcakes. no lucina cause no clones baby no roy = chrom)
= animal crossing

ok and the rest of the one-offs would be like

Spoiler: long list to explain

= racing
= dogfight
= the ****ing game and watches
= JRPGs
= "fighting" games
= basic retro / shooter

add the cause they're and that's a solid 30 characters

may not be your perfect roster but if we're doing a thanos snap to the cast for the sake of "balance" then that's what you get

 

[Captain Shades]

Honestly, I’d be in favor of a reboot. I think it opens up many new doors and possibilities.

At this point, Ultimate feels like the conclusion to Sakurai’s work and while many will claim that we can only go up, I don’t really see how we can. Most of the big fan requests have been met, and the others just seem far fetched at this point. We have a roster that will be comprised of 75+ characters, you can’t really go much further than that without angering the Smash community as you pull from non-Nintendo 3rd party, or the millionth FE or Pokémon character. Unless Sakurai steps down I doubt Kirby or Zelda will ever get another rep, or more classic franchises like Golden Sun will ever make it in, so where could this series potentially go.

I want to see something new from Smash now, a restart that fixes up many of the moveset issues and character inaccuracies of the previous titles. Maybe one that’ll cut the fat of the roster and update it to be more inline with the times or have characters that are important to the series as a whole rather than important/new at the time of a Smash release. Characters like Shiek, Young Link, Corrin, Doctor Mario, Pichu, Roy, Dark Pit, etc.. have like no place at this point and feel there because Smash added them at one point, rather than their series or fandom still supporting them.

As for the idea that the general public will go against the decision, will they really? It’s going to be a good 10 years before a new title it seems, that’s plenty of time to find a whole new audience and for previous players to forget. Most will just buy because Smash anyway as long as the game is good.

I believe there is a lingering lust for a new direction to Smash with quite a few asking if the series is stagnant at the moment. I think many believed the reboot was actually going to be Ultimate. The series is roughly 20 years old now and has yet to really make a huge change up. Every fighter has a nearly identical moveset to the previous title with only one move change here or there, most likely due to technical issues. It’s fine for now as this feels like a celebration with Ultimate, but the next title won’t have that to keep everything afloat. Everyone is Here has been done now, now your just throwing the same party but inviting 10 more people. It won’t have the same impact the second time around. I guess I’d rather have Smash move on and create a new direction to celebrate rather than being stuck in an endless loop.

 

[osby]

Isn't this really off-topic? Whatever.

I'm fine with reboot talk but I don't get why everyone acts like a reboot will magically cut every character they dislike and "fix" every veteran they don't like how they're implemented.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Isn't this really off-topic? Whatever.

I'm fine with reboot talk but I don't get why everyone acts like a reboot will magically cut every character they dislike and "fix" every veteran they how they're implemented.

They don't realize that some of these characters have bigger fanbases than they think, especially when Ultimate has the best sales and buffed some characters that supposedly no one likes.

coughpichuintop100favoritepokemondotjpegcough

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Isn't this really off-topic? Whatever.

I'm fine with reboot talk but I don't get why everyone acts like a reboot will magically cut every character they dislike and "fix" every veteran they don't like how they're implemented.

It is kind of odd actually, characters of other fighting games rarely get complete reworks. Even if their moveset changes drastically, it mostly serves to enhance the character's existing playtsyle. EDIT: Or they've been absent from the series for years.

Personally, I think Link is the only character that should get major adjustments each game depending on what incarnation of the character he's based off of. Other characters should only get small tweaks for representational purposes (Luigi being able to do special jumps such as long jumps, or Inkling having a bit more emphasis on stage control) or for rebalancing purposes (Bowser Jr.'s moveset needs some work).

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Dark Pit has like no place at this point

Sakurai wants your address and other information relating to you right now

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

On the topic of a reboot or sequel, Smash Ultimate is a really good game and I have very few complaints with it, they would really have to do something crazy to get me the play the next one over ultimate.

I would preferably just want extended support for ultimate, but based on Sakurai’s comments it doesn’t look like we will get anything past the fighter pass.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Talk of a reboot is absurd. Smash Ultimate, warts and all, was developed in just 3 years. Give the next game more dev time, cut a few characters, and they can absolutely manage to top 75 characters. There isn't anything preventing them from doing so.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

They don't realize that some of these characters have bigger fanbases than they think, especially when Ultimate has the best sales and buffed some characters that supposedly no one likes.

coughpichuintop100favoritepokemondotjpegcough

Tell me about it, one of the users in this board used to insist that Pichu would be the last DLC character for Smash 4.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Tell me about it, one of the users in this board used to insist that Pichu would be the last DLC character for Smash 4.

I was pretty annoying about the cut veterans in the last DLC discussion thread as well.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think that there will be more DLC outside of the fighter pass. I believe that Ultimate will continue to be expanded with DLC for as long as the Switch is supported. I also highly doubt that they would develop another Smash game for the Switch.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

On the topic of a reboot or sequel, Smash Ultimate is a really good game and I have very few complaints with it, they would really have to do something crazy to get me the play the next one over ultimate.

I would preferably just want extended support for ultimate, but based on Sakurai’s comments it doesn’t look like we will get anything past the fighter pass.

That’d probably be for the best

 

[IntelliHeath1]

That ballot quote made me realize that recent 5ch rumor had the supposed ballot results and Snake was in the top 3. Oh boy if that rumor ends up being true.

I'm curious about that rumor so you remember full context for that rumor?

 

[random rendum]

You'd have to be insane to think that a reboot of a succesful franchise with much less content would be good or well received. "We can't top Smash Ultimate even though the game lacks many features so let's remove half of the roster! It's different so it must be good!" doesn't make any sense from a business perspective.

 

[Knight Dude]

How much the next game will change depends on how much the engine it's played on will, I'm still thinking the next title will be a Marvel 3 situation, keeps a lot of fan favorites, axes a handful in place of fresh ones, then has some DLC to fill in a few more. Not to mention 3rd parties could be in a whole different situation, not that I'd think they will be, but it's not 100% for sure gonna happen.

It might not be AS heavy as MVC2 to MVC3, given it's not translating 2D characters into 3D.

Unless they keep updating in such a way that's similar to Street Fighter 2. Not just in characters, but single player modes or making the online less jank.

 

[Deleted member]

Anybody else seen the Porky Leak?

 

[AngrySun88]

Anybody else seen the Porky Leak?

It's already been debunked as a fake.

https://twitter.com/RobbyB3ll4s/status/1132003925412986881

 

[Deleted member]

Why would anyone think Porky is going to be DLC?

 

[Megadoomer]

Why would anyone think Porky is going to be DLC?

He's conspicuously absent from the game, even as a spirit, despite every Subspace boss, the various forms of Master Core, etc. getting into the game in some form. (and there being over a thousand Nintendo spirits, with Porky being one of the main villains of one of the first series in Smash)

 

[TMNTSSB4]

He's conspicuously absent from the game, even as a spirit, despite every Subspace boss, the various forms of Master Core, etc. getting into the game in some form. (and there being over a thousand Nintendo spirits, with Porky being one of the main villains of one of the first series in Smash)

Would still be a somewhat unexpected dlc character

 

[Icedragonadam]

Why would anyone think Porky is going to be DLC?

Well if the Mother trilogy is going to be remaked or something then Porky could be a stand alone DLC character to promote it as well as being added as being favorite villain among Mother fans. Or a Mother themed spirit event with new spirits like Porky to celebrate Mother's 30th anniversary.

 

[Deleted member]

Still what would Nintendo gain from adding Porky? There's nothing for him to promote or isn't as heavily requested as other fighters.

 

[Opossum]

Frederick is also conspicuously missing from the spirit list. That doesn't mean Frederick is going to be DLC.

 

[A.G.L.]

Isn’t Jin from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 also missing from the Spirit list? Which is pretty odd considering he’s the main antagonist. And one of the main protagonists of Torna the Golden Country DLC.

 

[andree123]

Why would anyone think Porky is going to be DLC?

Porky and Sylux are still missing in the game as of now, however there is a chance that one will be in the fighters pass (WOL placeholder slots datamine rumor) and the other will be a standalone DLC fighter with the unlock requirement in the WOL with 70 awaken fighters with the remaining 9 having a completely different requirement.

Frederick is also conspicuously missing from the spirit list. That doesn't mean Frederick is going to be DLC.

Porky and Sylux are the most important characters that are completely missing in the spirit list and this made the Mother and Metroid series spirits unfinished without them, the FE Awakening spirits are just complete, and there's no need for Frederick to be a playable fighter.

Isn’t Jin from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 also missing from the Spirit list?

Yes but his chances of him coming back will likely be a spirit due to the Fighters Pass 2 possibly have Rex and Zeke or Nia as fighters.

 

[The DanMan051]

I can understand Snake and Bomberman due to Konami at the time, and I suppose Sora too.

But why would Capcom reject Phoenix though? Especially since they seemed so open to play ball with Sakurai with Mega Man and Street Fighter.

AA is their smallest active franchise; not a single AA game is in the top 100 selling Capcom games. Would make sense that they'd want almost literally anybody else over Phoenix.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think that not having a Spirit doesn't mean anything.

 

[A.G.L.]

Out of curiosity, if Nintendo and Sakurai announced that they were going to add paid DLC music to Smash. And this means you could get more music from other series currently not in Smash or underrepresented in Smash. Would you think that is a good idea or a bad idea? For instance part of the DLC music could be from all of the Final Fantasy franchise, or Octopath Traveler, Ace Attorney, Okami, Bomberman, Advance Wars, ARMS, Tekken etc.

Personally if that meant more music in Smash, I would pay for it.

 

[Idon]

Frederick is also conspicuously missing from the spirit list. That doesn't mean Frederick is going to be DLC.

Listen, despite carrying your lunatic+ run, Frederick definitely aint as important as Porky.

Still not in though. Who the hell follows up Joker with Porky.

 

[3BitSaurus]

AA is their smallest active franchise; not a single AA game is in the top 100 selling Capcom games. Would make sense that they'd want almost literally anybody else over Phoenix.

True, but Ace Attorney games still sell well inside their genre. And there seem to be relatively few options among their active franchises. Out of these (to me, at least) the only ones that would stand in the way of Ace Attorney right now would be Resident Evil and possibly Monster Hunter, both many times larger. Either that, or they would choose a retro pick, but I don't know if Capcom would go with that option.

I bring this up because people keep using similar arguments to say they don't like the inclusion of characters like Bayonetta and Joker.