Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[CannonStreak]

To be fair, Banjo and Kazooie actually were partially owned by Nintendo and had a lot of vocal support under their belts. Then again, Hayabusa doesn't have that either, and neither does Lu Bu or whoever the Musuo rep is, so it could go either way.

4chan.

Well, I think it may be worth discussing, just in case, but I don't think this leak will turn out true. This is from 4Chan, after all.

 

[Teeb147]

Nooope. It had reached 2 million worldwide by December 2017 - a year before Joker even got announced.

I did post that pretty quickly, I should've explained more. Not saying that smash gave it most of its sales.
I just think that if you compare to any other game in smash, it's miniscule in terms of sales. So I'm more trying to say that if persona can make it into smash, then other niche series could.

 

[Shroob]

Well, I think it may be worth discussing, just in case, but I don't think this leak will turn out true. This is from 4Chan, after all.

I don't think it's true either

BUT considering we're probably on the verge of a Direct within the next 4 days, it's something to talk about in the meantime.

 

[I.D.]

Yeah, I have seen. Probably just overreacting. To make sure, you think this interview is concerning, in any way? Not just about Geno, though, but maybe other things.

I just don't see how, with Nintendo picking the DLC, they would pick someone like Geno or Waluigi as fully playable characters when apparently they have an ENTIRE TEAM dedicated to gatekeeping OCs made by outside studios from "muddling" too much the Mario IP. I mean, we've already seen the effects of this for years now, but this would be confirmation of the suspicions.

 

[CannonStreak]

I don't think it's true either

BUT considering we're probably on the verge of a Direct within the next 4 days, it's something to talk about in the meantime.

That's why I said I thought it was worth discussing, just in case.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I did post that pretty quickly, I should've explained more. Not saying that smash gave it most of its sales.
I just think that if you compare to any other game in smash, it's miniscule in terms of sales. So I'm more trying to say that if persona can make it into smash, then other niche series could.

Oh it's certainly not a bad point that more niche third parties have been considered in the past 5 years, I just felt P5 isn't as niche as say, Kirby.


Sidenote if any Atelier fans can explain what the franchise could bring to Smash I'm all ears

 

[CannonStreak]

I just don't see how, with Nintendo picking the DLC, they would pick someone like Geno or Waluigi as fully playable characters when apparently they have an ENTIRE TEAM dedicated to gatekeeping OCs made by outside studios from "muddling" too much the Mario IP. I mean, we've already seen the effects of this for years now, but this would be confirmation of the suspicions.

I know what you mean. As you may have said, we have practically known this for years. It is nothing new here. I wonder if the Geno fans forgot about this for some reason, and overreacted to this because of that, or maybe some other reason? Either way, this isn't a big deal.

 

[I.D.]

Sidenote if any Atelier fans can explain what the franchise could bring to Smash I'm all ears

Not really much of a fan but I imagine an Atelier character would have a moveset that completely revolves around the usage of items.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

You're really telling me Bayonetta had significant impact on gaming at the time of her addition? Other than her series being a cult classic (like Atelier) and her series having been saved by Nintendo, she had very little going for her. I remember people were very keen to point this out when she was revealed as the Ballot winner over a bunch of other seemingly more popular characters.

Miss me with this revisionist history BS.

Yes, Bayonetta has a pretty big impact on gaming at her time. As much as Mega man, Pac-man, Sonic, Snake, Cloud and Ryu? Clearly not, but that doesn't mean she has done nothing. Pretty much each time I talk about modern action games (or I see online discussion about modern action games) Bayonetta is brought up. She might not have a huge history of gaming, but with only one game she has become the face of character action game with Dante (but reminder that in 2015 DMC was in a rough spot; DMC 5 was not announced and the last game was the reboot).

When I talk about JRPG (or see online discussion about JRPG), Atelier is rarely, if ever brought up. Even if we're talking about franchise not in Smash, Tales of, Yokai watch and Kingdom hearts (to name a few) have a way bigger impact on gaming than Atelier.

 

[SharkLord]

From what I can gather, Ninja Gaiden vs Atelier is a legacy vs ongoing thing. Ninja Gaiden is an NES classic, and pops up a lot in KT games. On the other hand, Atelier's been silently chugging along at it's own pace, under the radar. Atelier Ryza is pretty much the BotW of Atelier in terms of sales, got the series a bit more attention, and apparently Atelier content has been added to various KT games. There's also the fact that Atelier is a long-running series that introduced alchemy to RPGs, so there is some legacy, small as it is. Still, Ninja Gaiden is more well-known, at least in the West.
And then there's just the Warriors series, which everyone just ignores despite the fact that it's crossed over with Nintendo properties multiple times. Don't know too much about them, could someone give me a rundown on that?

 

[Teeb147]

Oh it's certainly not a bad point that more niche third parties have been considered in the past 5 years, I just felt P5 isn't as niche as say, Kirby.


Sidenote if any Atelier fans can explain what the franchise could bring to Smash I'm all ears

Kirby? Kirby isn't niche :O

As for what it could bring to smash. it's a good question. I havent played that much, but i've always liked the series, and it's cute. I dont know enough about it though. I love the character design tho, I like the artist.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Kirby? Kirby isn't niche :O

As for what it could bring to smash. it's a good question. I havent played that much, but i've always liked the series, and it's cute. I dont know enough about it though. I love the character design tho, I like the artist.

From what I've been able to tell, only 1 Kirby game has outsold Persona 5, my point was that the average Kirby game sells than this supposedly niche game

 

[Shroob]

A character whose entire gameplay gimmick built around conjuring items out of thin air would be soo bull ****


.....Now I wanna see it just for a Hero 2.0 scenario, but this time, she's actually be banned probably.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Bruh come on now Ninja Gaiden is absolutely more famous than a series where the highest selling installment is like half a million

From a historic standpoint? I'm certainly inclined to agree. From a current relevance standpoint? Not in the slightest.

Ninja Gaiden's last release was a critical and commercial flop in 2014. It's been radio silence since then.

You can't deny the fact that while Atelier has never performed the best, at least it's still going as a series.

Smash could be just the push the series needs to truly break out, much like one of the prominent reasons for Hero's inclusion. While it certainly goes against popular fan consensus, the fact is that it'd be a pragmatic business decision to include Atelier over Ninja Gaiden.

Call it shilling or whatever, but Nintendo is a company with corporate interests; of course they're going to cater to those first. They don't personally serve any of us.

You could say the same about Mega Man at the time he got into Smash.

That's a good point, but Mega Man also had year's worth of overwhelming fan demand. I'd honestly say he was more requested by far over the likes of Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo.

Comparatively, discussion on Ryu started what? Like, 6, 7 months ago? Back when he started showing up in "leaks" as FP4, FP5, FP6, etc. His fan demand is rather steady right now, but it's nowhere near the astounding demand surrounding Mega Man.

Which is why I don't know whether or not Ryu has a definitive edge over the Atelier series.

Yes, Bayonetta has a pretty big impact on gaming at her time. As much as Mega man, Pac-man, Sonic, Snake, Cloud and Ryu? Clearly not, but that doesn't mean she has done nothing. Pretty much each time I talk about modern action games (or I see online discussion about modern action games) Bayonetta is brought up. She might not have a huge history of gaming, but with only one game she has become the face of character action game with Dante (but reminder that in 2015 DMC was in a rough spot; DMC 5 was not announced and the last game was the reboot).

When I talk about JRPG (or see online discussion about JRPG), Atelier is rarely, if ever brought up. Even if we're talking about franchise not in Smash, Tales of, Yokai watch and Kingdom hearts (to name a few) have a way bigger impact on gaming than Atelier.

Because your subjective, personal discussions reflect perfectly on the wider landscape of the gaming industry.

Atelier is very much in a similar position to Bayonetta when she was added to Sm4sh. Anyone saying otherwise wasn't around to see the fallout of Bayonetta's addition and is basing their perspective on now, when resentment has boiled over and views on Bayonetta have shifted significantly in her favor.

 

[Teeb147]

From what I've been able to tell, only 1 Kirby game has outsold Persona 5, my point was that the average Kirby game sells than this supposedly niche game

Kirby is still waay ahead in terms of overall sales, and also just being known.

Anyway, back on Ryza.. one thing that's for sure is that if she were in smash, lots would go into alchemy. Maybe different thigns could be combined to make items she can use.

 

[Wunderwaft]

And Ninja Gaiden is more known than Atelier?

Ninja Gaiden is a franchise dating back since the NES days and has achieved both a retro and a modern fanbase thanks to the hack and slash action games. It is most definitely more well known than Atelier among the gaming industry. Even among the Smash fanbase that loves to overhype niche characters, Ninja Gaiden saw more talk than Atelier ever did. Hell we even discussed Dynasty Warriors and Kasumi from DOA before anyone mentioned Atelier thanks to the leak.

Also just because Ninja Gaiden stopped getting games doesn't mean Ryu as a character is inactive. Koei Tecmo loves putting him in their games. He appears in the DOA games, he appeared as a secret boss in Nioh, and hell he even appeared in Warriors Orochi 4 Ultimate last year.

I mean, I think the leak is bunk but

Microsoft put in Banjo over Master Chief.

I'm low key getting tired of seeing this argument used every time to overrate the chances of a niche character. Banjo's circumstances are much more different thanks to him having a huge amount of fan requests and with Phil Spencer personally backing them up. Ryza doesn't have fan popularity and unless I'm mistaken I don't see anyone from Koei Tecmo calling for her to get in.

 

[zferolie]

I don't ever give much credit to random leaks. So it's still all just speculation.
I do think it's interesting to talk about a random character like Ryza tho. It doesnt really give the leak more weight anyway.

I love talking about characters that arent talked about to death. While i support Crash and Shantae i have more fun talking about the odder choices or ones not talked about. Cynthia, Medusa, Donbe and Hiakri, Marina from Mischief maker, to name a few.

While I think I'd still prefer Hayabusa over Ryza from a pure legacy standpoint, I think Ryza would still be incredibly cool, and I would be totally happy to get her. She would be very unique, has a nice, bright design, would have amazing music, and possibly my favorite part - she's a character that hasn't been speculated to death. I don't know - something about that specifically excites me a lot. I think it would also put an end to the idea that you HAVE to be an influential game to get "true" representation.

Hayabusa would presumably be a Mii costume, and maybe we could get a DoA or DW costume, too.

Oh man the mysic would be great to hear. I still need to play the Ryza game, but playing Rogue Galaxy atm(fantastic ps2 jrpg from level 5 studio), but i know the Atelier games always have great music.

From what I can gather, Ninja Gaiden vs Atelier is a legacy vs ongoing thing. Ninja Gaiden is an NES classic, and pops up a lot in KT games. On the other hand, Atelier's been silently chugging along at it's own pace, under the radar. Atelier Ryza is pretty much the BotW of Atelier in terms of sales, got the series a bit more attention, and apparently Atelier content has been added to various KT games. There's also the fact that Atelier is a long-running series that introduced alchemy to RPGs, so there is some legacy, small as it is. Still, Ninja Gaiden is more well-known, at least in the West.
And then there's just the Warriors series, which everyone just ignores despite the fact that it's crossed over with Nintendo properties multiple times. Don't know too much about them, could someone give me a rundown on that?

Another thing hurting Ninja gaiden is that it seems to have just been... melded into dead or alive, with no plans of a new game in the series. A shame. But yeah atelier has been chugging away, building on that nieche crowd for awhile. Plus Gust is a very good company i think and make such cute designs

 

[SKX31]

I did post that pretty quickly, I should've explained more. Not saying that smash gave it most of its sales.
I just think that if you compare to any other game in smash, it's miniscule in terms of sales. So I'm more trying to say that if persona can make it into smash, then other niche series could.

No worries, I also post pretty quickly sometimes.

That said, there are several cases of more "niche" DLC choices. Bayo had her impact, but she wasn't the most popular choice around. Her series really started to get going when Bayo 2 got picked up, she got more widespread attention and she began gaining more fans. Including high profile ones like Lady Gaga.

But it can be deceptive too: Terry (Fatal Fury + KOF)'s sales figures is obscured by years of widespread arcade cabinet piracy. Due to SNK cabinets being very easy to rewrite / transport (and him being most popular in Japan, LatAm and China, the latter two of which are more difficult to get data from simply due to a lack of reported data) and several of KOF's later projects being mobile for example.

 

[Teeb147]

Anybody should know that I'd be biased for Ryza, because I like cute characters XD
But I get it too that people would rather see someone more well known.

 

[Perkilator]

I'll throw my hat in the ring; despite Atelier still going, no way would Nintendo pick a character from that franchise over Ryu Hayabusa. It's like picking the ongoing Halo's Master Chief or Minecraft's Steve over Banjo.

 

[Shroob]

Ninja Gaiden is a franchise dating back since the NES days and has achieved both a retro and a modern fanbase thanks to the hack and slash action games. It is most definitely more well known than Atelier among the gaming industry. Even among the Smash fanbase that loves to overhype niche characters, Ninja Gaiden saw more talk than Atelier ever did. Hell we even discussed Dynasty Warriors and Kasumi from DOA before anyone mentioned Atelier thanks to the leak.

Also just because Ninja Gaiden stopped getting games doesn't mean Ryu as a character is inactive. Koei Tecmo loves putting him in their games. He appears in the DOA games, he appeared as a secret boss in Nioh, and hell he even appeared in Warriors Orochi 4 Ultimate last year.



I'm low key getting tired of seeing this argument used every time to overrate the chances of a niche character. Banjo's circumstances are much more different thanks to him having a huge amount of fan requests and with Phil Spencer personally backing them up. Ryza doesn't have fan popularity and unless I'm mistaken I don't see anyone from Koei Tecmo calling for her to get in.

Let's not kid ourselves. MOST of FP1 didn't have fan popularity going for it aside from Banjo. You're going to be hard pressed to convince me that people were jonesing for Terry, or that Erdrick would have been brought up on the regular if not for Vergeben.


Hell, I'd say BYLETH was the most talked about character in a bubble.

 

[RileyXY1]

I'll throw my hat in the ring; despite Atelier still going, no way would Nintendo pick a character from that franchise over Ryu Hayabusa. It's like picking the ongoing Halo's Master Chief or Minecraft's Steve over Banjo.

Actually, it would be more like picking a character from Skyrim over Doom.

 

[Schnee117]

I'll throw my hat in the ring; despite Atelier still going, no way would Nintendo pick a character from that franchise over Ryu Hayabusa. It's like picking the ongoing Halo's Master Chief or Minecraft's Steve over Banjo.

Actually, it would be more like picking a character from Skyrim over Doom.

I don't think I need to explain why these are dreadful comparisons.

 

[Idon]

Actually, it would be more like picking a character from Skyrim over Doom.

....

What?
Could you elaborate? Atelier isn't remotely on that level

 

[RileyXY1]

Ninja Gaiden is a franchise dating back since the NES days and has achieved both a retro and a modern fanbase thanks to the hack and slash action games. It is most definitely more well known than Atelier among the gaming industry. Even among the Smash fanbase that loves to overhype niche characters, Ninja Gaiden saw more talk than Atelier ever did. Hell we even discussed Dynasty Warriors and Kasumi from DOA before anyone mentioned Atelier thanks to the leak.

Also just because Ninja Gaiden stopped getting games doesn't mean Ryu as a character is inactive. Koei Tecmo loves putting him in their games. He appears in the DOA games, he appeared as a secret boss in Nioh, and hell he even appeared in Warriors Orochi 4 Ultimate last year.



I'm low key getting tired of seeing this argument used every time to overrate the chances of a niche character. Banjo's circumstances are much more different thanks to him having a huge amount of fan requests and with Phil Spencer personally backing them up. Ryza doesn't have fan popularity and unless I'm mistaken I don't see anyone from Koei Tecmo calling for her to get in.

The same goes for Terry, and Fatal Fury has been inactive for far longer.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Actually, it would be more like picking a character from Skyrim over Doom.

I'd argue Elder Scrolls and Doom are equally notable series, what are you talking about?

 

[RileyXY1]

I'd argue Elder Scrolls and Doom are equally notable series, what are you talking about?

I was saying that as one that has become more popular recently, and one that has been popular for decades.

 

[Animegamingnerd]

On the topic of the Mario RPG and the lack of new characters. I find it interesting that the 3D Mario is always given more creative freedom then any of the Mario RPG teams, Odyssey alone clearly had way more creativity put into then most Mario RPG's.

 

[Megadoomer]

Actually, it would be more like picking a character from Skyrim over Doom.

It seems closer to picking Commander Keen or the main character of Rage 2 over Doom.

 

[RileyXY1]

It seems closer to picking Commander Keen or the main character of Rage 2 over Doom.

Keen has been around much longer, he predates Doom and even Wolfenstein 3D. It's still a pretty niche series, but it was the series that gave Id Software their first clear success on the MS-DOS operating system, paving the way for Wolfenstein, Doom, and Quake. Rage, that's better.

 

[SKX31]

I was saying that as one that has become more popular recently, and one that has been popular for decades.

*Looks at TES III: Morrowwind (released 2002, sold 4 million by 2006) and TES IV: Oblivion (one of the biggest early 360 games - 9.5 million)*

TES picked up steam ca 20. years ago, it's not recent.

 

[RileyXY1]

*Looks at TES III: Morrowwind (released 2002, sold 4 million by 2006) and TES IV: Oblivion (one of the biggest early 360 games)*

TES picked up steam ca 20. years ago, it's not recent.

But still, neither compare to Skyrim, which was not only a massive success, it was also ported to every system imaginable and was even the very first third-party title announced for the Switch.

 

[GoodGrief741]

From a historic standpoint? I'm certainly inclined to agree. From a current relevance standpoint? Not in the slightest.

Ninja Gaiden's last release was a critical and commercial flop in 2014. It's been radio silence since then.

You can't deny the fact that while Atelier has never performed the best, at least it's still going as a series.

Smash could be just the push the series needs to truly break out, much like one of the prominent reasons for Hero's inclusion. While it certainly goes against popular fan consensus, the fact is that it'd be a pragmatic business decision to include Atelier over Ninja Gaiden.

Call it shilling or whatever, but Nintendo is a company with corporate interests; of course they're going to cater to those first. They don't personally serve any of us.

Being an ongoing series doesn't mean more people know it. Ninja Gaiden hasn't gotten a game in half a decade, and yet it's still better known because it put out games that are outright classics and amongst the best in their genres. If Pac-Man never had any videogames ever again, he'd still be one of the most iconic and well-known characters in gaming.

 

[I.D.]

On the topic of the Mario RPG and the lack of new characters. I find it interesting that the 3D Mario is always given more creative freedom then any of the Mario RPG teams, Odyssey alone clearly had way more creativity put into then most Mario RPG's.

From the way it's described it seems to me that's because Odyssey is developed in-house, while Paper Mario is developed by Intelligent Systems.

 

[Cosmic77]

Y'know, if Min Min and Ryza really are the first two characters in this pass, you have to consider the irony in all of this after certain complaints people had for the first pass.

"Add more female fighters!!"

*Adds Min Min and Ryza.

"No, you did it wrong!! Nobody asked for this!!"

 

[Teeb147]

Atelier Ryza does have an ap system, where you get action points to use skills or things for tactics. So I guess that's somethign that could be put into the character, where whenever you hit someone you'd get ap and could use it for certain special attacks or changes.

 

[RileyXY1]

Being an ongoing series doesn't mean more people know it. Ninja Gaiden hasn't gotten a game in half a decade, and yet it's still better known because it put out games that are outright classics and amongst the best in their genres. If Pac-Man never had any videogames ever again, he'd still be one of the most iconic and well-known characters in gaming.

Yeah. More people talk about Ninja Gaiden, DOA, or Dynasty Warriors in terms of Koei Tecmo reps because those games have created legacies for themselves. Aletier, despite being around since 1997, has never had that level of legacy.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

View attachment 278732

From a historic standpoint? I'm certainly inclined to agree. From a current relevance standpoint? Not in the slightest.

Ninja Gaiden's last release was a critical and commercial flop in 2014. It's been radio silence since then.

You can't deny the fact that while Atelier has never performed the best, at least it's still going as a series.

Smash could be just the push the series needs to truly break out, much like one of the prominent reasons for Hero's inclusion. While it certainly goes against popular fan consensus, the fact is that it'd be a pragmatic business decision to include Atelier over Ninja Gaiden.

Call it shilling or whatever, but Nintendo is a company with corporate interests; of course they're going to cater to those first. They don't personally serve any of us.

That's a good point, but Mega Man also had year's worth of overwhelming fan demand. I'd honestly say he was more requested by far over the likes of Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo.

Comparatively, discussion on Ryu started what? Like, 6, 7 months ago? Back when he started showing up in "leaks" as FP4, FP5, FP6, etc. His fan demand is rather steady right now, but it's nowhere near the astounding demand surrounding Mega Man.

Which is why I don't know whether or not Ryu has a definitive edge over the Atelier series.

Because your subjective, personal discussions reflect perfectly on the wider landscape of the gaming industry.

Atelier is very much in a similar position to Bayonetta when she was added to Sm4sh. Anyone saying otherwise wasn't around to see the fallout of Bayonetta's addition and is basing their perspective on now, when resentment has boiled over and views on Bayonetta have shifted significantly in her favor.

I'm neutral on Atelier in Smash but PLEASE bro

The ****ing outtake video has twice as many views as the best selling Atelier has sales, if the series being well alive mattered, we wouldn't have gotten Banjo, not to mention Ninja Gaiden's also in Nioh last I checked

 

[BernkastelWitch]

I imagine when it comes to Koei, it also depends on what both they and Nintendo want.

Ryu Hayabusa is their most known character and Ninja Gaiden has a huge legacy. It's their oldest franchise and Ninja Gaiden has several different audiences to it: The Retro gamers who played the original on SNES and the Action fans who like the more modern games. Hayabusa is the most obvious and likely choice.


But there's also taking into account the possibility Koei may want to ask Nintendo to put a character from their lesser known franchises like Atelier in there. Atelier is long running(I want to say maybe second longest running Koei franchise? Can someone correct me there) since it's been around since 1997. Atelier helped popularize some modern mechanics in JRPGs. And I imagine Koei knows how much of a boost it'd give the franchise if they threw in someone like Reisalin over Hayabusa, since most franchises that get a rep in Smash are proven to get a boost in interest and sales.

So it's a matter of Legacy vs Boosting interest in a lesser known property. It ultimately depends here. I imagine legacy choices may win out but you never know.

 

[SKX31]

But still, neither compare to Skyrim, which was not only a massive success, it was also ported to every system imaginable and was even the very first third-party title announced for the Switch.

That wasn't the point. Skyrim was a success on its own legs, yes, but Morrowwind and Oblivion were legitimate successes in their own right and built the foundation for Skyrim to explode onto the scene.

Banjo-Kazooie is a similar comparision: It got successful partly because Rare had proven it was capable of developing great games (the DKC trilogy first and foremost) and as such confidence in B-K was high from the start. That's not to disparage B-K, it succeeded on its own legs too.