New Toon Link Matchup Thread

[Self Distructo]

toon link ****ing sucks.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Unsuccesful troll is unsuccessful.

Anyways, has anyone thought of doing marth?

 

[CTX]

Whenever we do the DK matchup, we need to put in the fact that you should NEVER let him take you to Brinstar. Ripple did that to me in game 3 of our set..****ing prolonged and extended hitboxes...that is all

 

[WindMajor]

You should've bomb camped him.

 

[MJG]

Whenever we do the DK matchup, we need to put in the fact that you should NEVER let him take you to Brinstar. Ripple did that to me in game 3 of our set..****ing prolonged and extended hitboxes...that is all

I thought this was known.

You should've bomb camped him.

No.

 

[MaskedAvnger]

Yeah DK on brinstar is just dumb.

 

[CTX]

I thought this was known.

FAE made the same mistake

 

[MJG]

Unless Japes is legal, I don't see what other stage you could possibly want to ban vs DK >_>.

 

[WindMajor]

I'd try to avoid Battlefield.

It feels so small and DK just hits through those platforms like cake.

 

[Thebest1pj]

I'd try to avoid Battlefield.

It feels so small and DK just hits through those platforms like cake.

nope. bombs hit through platforms it would actually be easier to beat him there

 

[CTX]

The first match we had was on lylat. I fell behind early and couldn't quiet close the gap. Only got him to 50% on his 3rd stock. Took him to PS1 and won. Don't remember what I banned...obviously wasn't Brinstar

We had a little bit of a rematch in crews where I actually ended up playing him on battlefield and it went much better than I thought it might. It was pretty close game, although he did pull it out. I would agree with PJ that battlefield would be pro-TL in the match.

 

[MJG]

I'd try to avoid Battlefield.

It feels so small and DK just hits through those platforms like cake.

BF is fine for TL in most MUs.

The first match we had was on lylat. I fell behind early and couldn't quiet close the gap. Only got him to 50% on his 3rd stock. Took him to PS1 and won. Don't remember what I banned...obviously wasn't Brinstar

We had a little bit of a rematch in crews where I actually ended up playing him on battlefield and it went much better than I thought it might. It was pretty close game, although he did pull it out. I would agree with PJ that battlefield would be pro-TL in the match.

That sucks >_>

Wish I could have been at the tourney...I had ride johns >_<

 

[WindMajor]

nope. bombs hit through platforms it would actually be easier to beat him there

BF is fine for TL in most MUs.

I'm just saying that because yesterday I went against a DK and he took me to Battlefield and I got owned since I had barely anywhere to run.

 

[MaskedAvnger]

Yeah DK has a few shenanigans on BF too. Nothing that makes the stage banworthy, but I wouldn't CP him there.

 

[Thebest1pj]

I'm just saying that because yesterday I went against a DK and he took me to Battlefield and I got owned since I had barely anywhere to run.

Thats what the air is for

 

[MJG]

If you do go to BF vs DK, don't feel obligated to try and camp him the entire time. It won't really work and you don't even really have to camp DK to beat him.

 

[CTX]

If you do go to BF vs DK, don't feel obligated to try and camp him the entire time. It won't really work and you don't even really have to camp DK to beat him.

This. Just be extremely cautious. If you get read, you are eating a Donkey Punch. Getting caught doing a b-move animation, getting caught doing a z-air also means that you are getting hit by it (because of its super armor). Avoid rolling and spamming spotdodge. If he grabs and tries to barrel spike, hold up...if you still get caught, tech the stage

 

[MaskedAvnger]

loldonkeypunch.

and avoid walls, cargo hold to dthrow is a wall infinite, iirc.

 

[MJG]

loldonkeypunch.

and avoid walls, cargo hold to dthrow is a wall infinite, iirc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIFdNjeISvc#t=0m25s

 

[CTX]

I like how we just started talking about the DK matchup.

At this point, we might as well make a thread about it and such...

Just because it gives it the norm, I'll put a matchup ratio on this and say its 55:45 TL. Yes we have projectiles, yes we can combo him...but his kill power and range are so far ahead of what we can do. After we get past 100 we have to be sooooo cautious when it comes to getting hit by anything. Donkeypunch, d-smash OoS, gimped by b-air, u-air, edgehog to d-smash or u-air. He has so many ways to kill that evens up the match-up real quick...DK boards have this at an even matchup

 

[NH Cody]

I totally agree with CTX.

 

[Thebest1pj]

55:45? EVEN?

yall **** crazy lol

60:40 at least

 

[CTX]

How is at LEAST 60:40

He outranges us in the air AND on the ground. His tilts shut down anything we can do on the ground. B-air outranges us. 87% is kill percent with d-smash. 87 ***ing percent!!! And he can do that **** OoS. He can gimp our recovery with b-air and hell it kills when fresh. D-tilt, d-tilt, ground pound, free 30%. In 5 seconds, he has done 1/3 of the damage he needs to do. Not to mention the fact that donkeypunch has super armor frames that we cant pierce. He can do that in the air and on the ground. Doing a b-move animation, or z-air, when he has the fully charged dpunch is risky because if he reads it, its death. Same thing with airdodging and spot-dodging. Our great tools (our great airdodge, our great z-air and great collection of camping skills with b-moves) are rendered to be risky options because of that. That simple. He takes him so little to get us to kill percent and he can kill us in a variety of ways. Yes we can combo him and camp, but the fact that his margin of error is much greater than ours, because of our trouble killing AND how high we have to get him (he is heavy after-all) closes that gap.

To say that its AT LEAST 60-40 is just ridiculous to me.

 

[MJG]

60:40 TL

Ripple thought it was 65:35 after playing me again. You just have to play the MU right.

I could possibly even lean towards 55:45 TL but I just think we have a solid advantage for now.

 

[Thebest1pj]

How is at LEAST 60:40

He outranges us in the air AND on the ground. His tilts shut down anything we can do on the ground. B-air outranges us. 87% is kill percent with d-smash. 87 ***ing percent!!! And he can do that **** OoS. He can gimp our recovery with b-air and hell it kills when fresh. D-tilt, d-tilt, ground pound, free 30%. In 5 seconds, he has done 1/3 of the damage he needs to do. Not to mention the fact that donkeypunch has super armor frames that we cant pierce. He can do that in the air and on the ground. Doing a b-move animation, or z-air, when he has the fully charged dpunch is risky because if he reads it, its death. Same thing with airdodging and spot-dodging. Our great tools (our great airdodge, our great z-air and great collection of camping skills with b-moves) are rendered to be risky options because of that. That simple. He takes him so little to get us to kill percent and he can kill us in a variety of ways. Yes we can combo him and camp, but the fact that his margin of error is much greater than ours, because of our trouble killing AND how high we have to get him (he is heavy after-all) closes that gap.

To say that its AT LEAST 60-40 is just ridiculous to me.

I see that, but you must understand that our char wrecks DK i saw jash 3 or 2 stock bum on stream not to long ago. Link has all our tools, lives longer and can kill us earlier but we still wreck him. He may outrange us on the air and ground but his moves are kinda slow.We can get in and out in no time. If your getting hit by dtilt, dtilt to ground pound then your spacing is bad, and donkey punch is like warios waft you gotta keep moving to avoid it or bait its misuse.I really think this Mu is 60:40 your acting like its snake or something.

<-has gotten past this "trouble killing" you speak of.

 

[NH Cody]

If ONE PLAYER twostocks a DK (who probably either wasn't top level or didn't know the MU or a combination of both) it doesn't mean that the MU is totally in our favor. It's not so much like dealing with Snake as it is dealing with ICs, where you make one mistake and you die for it. DK can throw out random aerials and grabs (might I remind you how long his grab range is) and not get killed for it, whereas when we make a mistake we get baired or donkey punched and killed.

 

[CTX]

Well you are better than me MJG lol

But I can agree with 60:40, I think I was just shocked by shadow's AT LEAST 60:40.

 

[GodMeowMix]

Idk about this 60:40 stuff you people are talking about. I've played Will in more matches than I could count at MLG; all DK has to do is walk and powershield and he will shut the majority of your options trying to force you into being creative, their back air and up-b is a great edge guard on Toon Link if the DK is competent, oh and did I mention how broken DKs F smash spacing is against TL if you even consider approaching? Lol at considering BF as a neutral level vs DK, you want as much room as possible to camp that ugly Sasquatch ****er.

Toon link has to play in the air in order to deal damage to DK and majority of the time you will either be above or to the side of DK which will leave you open for a smash if you're not careful, and on top of that DK moves a lot faster than you think he does, his mobility on the ground is faster than you are in the air so prepare to be pressured a lot in the matchup depending on the situation of course. I've done things like spike and edge guard DK from his recovery to get a 1-2 stock lead and STILL lose the match because all the DK had to do was walk leaving him with all options.

I'd honestly say the matchup is 50:50 but I don't know maybe its just the DKs in NY that are ****.

 

[MJG]

To add to the "Walking, Powershielding" DK, if they are doing that then run up and grab them.

The best DK I have played is Ripple...so I would have to play someone like Will, Bum, Ook, etc to get a full handle on the MU.

Even so, I don't think its a difficult MU at all

And again..you don't have to camp DK the entire time to win. Its probably best to do implement a sort of "Hit-and-Run" play style against DK. That being said...well spaced aerials and full hop nairs would be adviced. DK can't jump OoS as fast as some characters like fox or MK (Shuttle Loooooooooooop).


EDIT: Assuming that both DK and TL Know the MU, I would agree on 55:45 TL. Even on the sames and obviously DK has the advantage on stages against TL.

Just like in this amazing game, game 1 matters the most.

 

[GodMeowMix]

Trust me I don't believe in camp strategies will win you the match either, I just believe the majority of the time spent in the match you will be running away camping DK looking for openings when to approach. If hes grounded its best to just play it safe, landing a grab after bombarding DK with projectiles is a smart and dumb choice you just have to ask yourself is it really worth the risk because if he spot dodges then you're most likely losing a stock.

The reason I say this match up is even because while Toon Link is able to rack up damage on DK, the DK user has a variety of options both racking up damage and having good kill potential. This isn't to say Toon Link doesn't either once you get them past 135% because easier to land an up air or even kill DK with an Up-B than most other characters once you actually have them suspended in the air. One main problem is how DK can space Fsmash against TL once they feel like they're able to kill them mainly because the knock back is so strong and theres nothing Toon Link can really do after it unless you're walking as well.

 

[Thebest1pj]

lowest Id go would be 55:45

@toony bum is a pro level DK

@rly now

@kitty galore *walk and powershield* anyone can do that, and DK shouldn't be forcing you to get creative you honestly should be doing that of your own accord

 

[CTX]

Why u mad?

EDIT: Nice Edit PJ :-p

 

[Thebest1pj]

Why u mad?

EDIT: Nice Edit PJ :-p

i edited it 3 times

 

[GodMeowMix]

@kitty galore *walk and powershield* anyone can do that, and DK shouldn't be forcing you to get creative you honestly should be doing that of your own accord

That is a very subjective opinion, being creative in a tournament match is risky even though rewards may be great; the last thing you want to do is leave your comfort zone but there are certain circumstances as to why it would be OK to do such a thing.

Its funny, you'd imagine everyone would be walking and power shielding against Toon Link with a statement like that. Yes ANYONE can do that, but something to truly consider is can EVERYONE? I wouldn't claim such a bold statement until you've switched shoes with the other player.

 

[CTX]

Yeah, you know how you react to somebody who PS's everything? You grab them.

 

[MJG]

Yeah, you know how you react to somebody who PS's everything? You grab them.

hmmm...oh.

To add to the "Walking, Powershielding" DK, if they are doing that then run up and grab them.

 

[CTX]

Whatever DTL

 

[GodMeowMix]

The grab isn't guaranteed, if you miss you will be eating a fully charged F smash and you'll most likely lose a stock; that's 8-10% vs 1 stock. I'm sure you'll land a grab the first several times but it isn't going to help you if you're playing a set.

 

[Thebest1pj]

That is a very subjective opinion, being creative in a tournament match is risky even though rewards may be great; the last thing you want to do is leave your comfort zone but there are certain circumstances as to why it would be OK to do such a thing.

Its funny, you'd imagine everyone would be walking and power shielding against Toon Link with a statement like that. Yes ANYONE can do that, but something to truly consider is can EVERYONE? I wouldn't claim such a bold statement until you've switched shoes with the other player.

If everyone cant do it then why does it matter at all? Your talking about it as if its a common thing.

 

[MJG]

The grab isn't guaranteed, if you miss you will be eating a fully charged F smash and you'll most likely lose a stock; that's 8-10% vs 1 stock. I'm sure you'll land a grab the first several times but it isn't going to help you if you're playing a set.

*Sigh

There are obvious times when not to grab and when you should grab.

"Obviously" a time to "not" attempt to grab DK is when you are in kill range. Even then they won't expect you to grab.


I give up