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New Toon Link Matchup Thread

G-Dub

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Unless im missing something someone wants to add we can move on to zss (or sonic because i have absolutely no idea how to deal with that mu lol)
 
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I wrote this about a year ago for MJG.

You can't camp Sonic that well due to his speed, so you always have to expect that approach and try to find a way to counter it. In other words, restrict movements with projectiles, then sword/shield/move away/whatever. That's basically your plan for the entire match. Unless the Sonic you're playing is playing super gay, it's pretty safe to expect him to be constantly in your face with pressure. Speaking of which, you will be dealing with a lot of lightning fast pressure, so a lot of the things you do you won't really have time to think about.

Sonic has a lot of strange movement options that he has to commit to, so it's a matter of learning the parameters of what he can do in certain situations.

A small checklist:

Sonic initiates DownB on ground. He can:
-Shield immediately.
-Keep on hitting B to infinitely charge it.
-Hit Jump while he's charging it to do a jump while spinning (he can do a regular double jump after it).
-Do some weird spinshot thing, where he does what looks like a long jump while spinning.
-Let go, then continue to roll at you (he can cancel the roll with jump -> aerial).

Sonic initiates DownB in the air. He can:
-Do all the same **** as above.
-Cancel the roll with a shield immediately when he touches the ground.
---This means he can shield -> Grab/Roll/Spotdodge/Jump very quickly

Sonic initiates SideB. He can do everything mentioned above, but he cannot:
-Cannot continue to hit B to charge it.
-Cannot cancel it out with a grab.
-Cannot do the weird spinshot thing.


Normally with all of his rolls, your best option is to always hold shield. There's only one instance in which he can grab you from it, and that's if he initiates DownB from the air and lands right next to you (his grab range is short btw). It's important that you hold shield because Sonic has a lot of mixups with delayed hitboxes that he'll do right after he rolls against your shield and jumps, like Fair or UpB (the spring will hit you).

Something that I realized is that when Sonic hits your shield after a roll with a rising aerial, it's best not to go up in the air and chase him, because you're probably not gonna be able to reach him with anything. It's best to just punish his landing as opposed to try to punish him in the air.

--

Since Sonic is so fast, it's always good to stay the hell away from him because you need all the reaction time you can get. Normally Sonics will try to approach you like crazy, so there's no reason to approach them back. Just let them run to you. Since he's so fast, it's extremely important that you pay attention to what actions you commit to. For example, boomerangs are slow, and if you miss, then you're gonna be wide open for a while. It may not seem like a lot of time, but Sonic can punish you from like a mile away in a split second, even if it's with something weak like dash attack. I know that Espy baits Jerm to hell with a lot of things by just sort of dancing around him until he finds an opening. For example, he'll sprint directly at Jerm, which will make Jerm instinctively want to do something like a retreating Bair (since he has no time to wait and see). Espy would expect that and just stop right next to him with shield, just outside of Bair range. TL's bair has a little bit of ending lag, but it is more than enough time for Espy to just do something.

I haven't played Sonic in a while, but I think what I used to do against him was only throw like one projectile then prepare for an approach. IIRC, arrows cancel rolls, and if he's doing the cool invincibility trick on YI:B, the arrows stop Sonic from moving. This means that quickdraws are super effective. The rest of your projectiles are useful too, but you just have to know when to use them. I think retreating Zair works pretty well when Sonic is trying to pressure you/mindgame you with the infinitely charging DownB since you can cancel Zair to a shield in like 2 frames. If Zair is spaced correctly, Sonic would be at a position where he can't immediately attack you from where he's at, so you might have some time to think.

---

Random things to keep in mind:

-Sonic has pretty bad OoS options. I think his best one is FTilt (not a bad move since it has like 3 multihit hitboxes). His other moves aren't exactly good (DTilt has a lot of ending lag, UTilt has a short horizontal hitbox, Jab is jab, grab has short range, etc.) He can spring out of a bind too, but that doesn't put a lot of pressure on you since it's just him escaping, lol.

-TL UAir > Sonic Dair. If you predict a Dair, just throw out UAir. It's ****, and it wins every time.

-Sonic's recovery is very predictable. Although his UpB has invincibility frames upon initiation, he's usually wide open once he's nearing the peak of his jump, and his jump always puts him in the same exact spot. Once you predict when he's going to Spring to recover, you can just Fair him in the spot where you know he's going to be before he can initiate an action (which will usually be either air dodge or an aerial, depending on your position). Sometimes Sonic will try to use his homing attack to recover. Don't fall for that lol.

-After a spring, Sonic can't use B attacks, but he can still use A attacks and footstool jump. If you try to edgehog him, you have to watch out for rogue Fairs stage spiking you while you're holding onto the ledge. Also, if you're just holding onto the ledge, he can just footstool jump you and land safely onstage.

-Sonic's Fair can be SDI'd upward/backwards to escape the last hit.

-Sonic's running powershield is ****. It's instant pressure. If you can figure out a pattern you can grab it. :p


Sonic's throws:

DThrow: This move puts you in a really extensive tech chase. There are two different places where you can tech the ground (once directly after the last hit while you're touching the ground, and the other is after you're thrown, you can tech the place where you land). It's extensive because there's a billion different things that can happen (you tech the first time, the second time, or never, and each of those situations branch into a bunch of different options like roll, getup attack, etc.) Something I like to do is tech in place right under his feet, then immediately either Jab -> Something, or Grab. There are a million mixups you can do, just keep on switching them.

FThrow: It sucks. He might Fair you out of it, so avoid it. I doubt Sonic mains will even use this though.

BThrow: DI upward. It's not that strong, but it can kill you early near a walk-off. He can't combo into anything afterward.

UThrow: Pick a side and DI towards that side. Chances are that right after the UThrow, if you're at high percents, the Sonic is going to chase you with a Spring and either Fair, Bair, or Uair. Don't air dodge immediately, always try to time it.

---

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFNfENv6Hvg

Look at this video from Jerm, and you'll get the basic idea of things. I think Jerm and Espy played the MU very well. Some things I noticed was that Jerm didn't hold out his shield after getting hit by the roll -> aerial. You'll notice that he gets hit by the delayed spring a bunch of times. Again, if you hold out your shield, there's NOTHING that Sonic can do that'll put you at a disadvantage. Shield beats all of Sonic's options.

Also, Jerm jumps and angles boomerang down, which is not the best of options in this MU. Quickdraws are good because they cover a lot of ground, which Sonic depends on. Angling boomerangs doesn't replicate this.
 

archer.

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Arrows **** Sonic. No I am not joking. I have a match of me vs Kai that will demonstrate this quite clearly, and it should be uploaded tonight/tomorrow.
 

G-Dub

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I guess we can go ahead and start talking about sonic. I hope to make some edits to this thread as a whole very soon to get a good file of these discussions and vids.

Welp without further adieu... :sonic: the hedgehog that put sega on the map and really gave mario a run for his money (pun intended)...
Go!
 

archer.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDjOC7QrjN4&feature=player_detailpage#t=737s

He only went Sonic against me for one round but it has some decent stuff in it.

Against Sonic, you have to be very careful about when you use projectiles because his speed makes it easy to punish the large amounts of start-up for bomb pulls and boomerangs. He's also good at punishing landings, even from very far away, so try to be ready to cover your landings with ibombs or quickdraws.

Arrows might be TL's most useful projectile in the match-up. They have much lower start up than the other two (quickdraws even more so), and so they are his best option for pressuring Sonic and for beating/canceling spindash, which they will do every time. Arrows can also either force him to shield or take to the air if he's not spindashing around, neither of which he wants to do. Mixing up charge times also makes them harder to powershield, further crippling his mobility. And Sonic in the air is a lot slower than Sonic on the ground. In short, they destroy his mobility, which is really all he has.

Sonic in the air is much easier to deal with. He's more easily harassed with your other projectiles at this point, and you can maneuver around him better as well. Avoid full hopping or double jumping as much as you can, since like I said before he's good at punishing landings, and doing either gives him more time to do it. Juggling is an OK option but he has ways of dealing with it, so more often than not you should use him being in the air as an opportunity to get your boomerang out and/or pull a bomb.

Zair as always has its uses as a spacing tool and a combostarter, but against Sonic it's a good idea to mix in more quickdraws with your zairs. And keep in mind that Sonic is deceptively low to the ground when he uses spindash, so if you're not careful he can just go right under your zair.

Don't risk challenging his spindash directly (i.e. with moves that aren't projectiles or zair) unless you're sure you have the read and/or the timing down, you can eat a lot of damage for it. Instead just shield it most of the time, it'll save you a lot of trouble and it takes no where near as much commitment. About the only thing you should commit to against Sonic is timing him out. Neither character kills well at all, and trying to force things against him will usually not end well.

I know I've pretty much only talked about spindash here but that really is all you have to look out for. None of his throws do anything special (DI uthrow behind him to more easily evade up-b follow-ups), none of his other moves combo particularly well, and the only kill moves he has are fsmash and bair (and uair near the top of the screen but it's actually very weak). You beat spindash, you beat Sonic.

TL;DR arrows are ****, time him out, stay on/near the ground most of the time, and do not commit to things.
 

G-Dub

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Good stuff archer.
The only good sonic ive played is trublue and he tends to play pretty campy and never really approaches unless i **** up and commit to a projectile. Any advise for the camp-minded sonics?
Also i'll alert the sonic mains and see if they have anything to add.
 

archer.

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... Camp harder than him? I'm not gonna say I'm a master at fighting campy Sonic or anything so I could be wrong but personally I don't see how Sonic legit camping Toon Link would work out for him unless he already had a lead and time was running out.
 

G-Dub

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Well. Tink cant really do much at looooong-range. Sonic sits there.... Lol i throw rang or arrow or pull bomb? Sonic is suddenly in my face.
But like i said before, i really dont know how to go about this MU so i could just be bad lol
 

Tesh

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiB5I5zfRnM

quick things im gonna point out, twinkie, you mixed up down b and side b a good bit, the it really doesn't matter because you understand that "if he starts spinning, he has these options", which is most of whats important. some options are only available from side b and some are only available through down b, so its also worth knowing that he doesnt have option A and B at the same time.

side b on the ground lets you :
perform a short invincible hop that can cancel into aerials or land and roll across the ground
shield before its fully charged (once he charged for about 2 seconds, he loses this option)
launch straight up with a hitbox
spinshot (fast moving jump, consumes double jump even when used on the ground)
pull backwards a bit while charging

side b in the air:
invincible hop
spinshot (only if double jump is available)
stops all horizontal movement while charging then pulls back
if he lands before its fully charged he can shield immediately (toon link wont care much, but he can safely land into things like mines or DK ground slap)

down b on the ground lets you:
roll across the ground immediately
launch straight up or diagonally forward with a hitbox
cannot be shield cancelled

down b in the air: (ASC)
momentum cancels
can drift forwards or backwards while charging
can spinshot forward only (down b cancel be reversed like most specials)
dive diagonally down and forward (3 hits, can do 8-27 damage total) the damage is important because it can wreck your shield or poke because ASC can triple hit then land (causing a 4th ground hit) then jump again (causing a 5th rising hit) then cancel into an aerial (6th hit+)
cancel the above dive with his double jump

IF SONIC DOESN'T HAVE HIS DOUBLE JUMP, HE CANNOT CANCEL SPINDASH until another cancel option become available, such as landing into shield, or landing then jumping (which will not refresh his double jump).

If sonic uses his double jump and then spindashes at you in the air, he can't do anything except wiggle a bit, so just stick your sword out and whack him for it.

arrows....stop grounded spindash, but aerial down b and side B release go right through them, it looked like kai just didnt use them.

whats actually going to happen is that sonic will spin through arrows and rangs with barely any thought needed. your sword and bombs are the really reliable things vs spindash, but he is going to bait them and get close enough to outspeed bomb pulls and make your sword range insignificant.

covering your landings with bombs was good, that and zair are important.

as for throws, fthrow, uthrow and bthrow put the victim in control of what happens next, expect sonic to use whichever one puts you closer to the side blast zones, but all can be DIed so you go up and to whatever angle you prefer

dthrow however is pretty good (unless you tech it in front of him), it will force you to the ledge and if you managed to DI down and miss the teach, get ready to get grabbed again.

when spindash hits your shield, you can sit in your shield afraid of a 4 damage spring, or you can try to hit sonic for 10 damage and combo/kill him, just like mk, you really shouldnt care how many times we hit you with spring on stage, you just need to read when its not coming (or just bair through it). If you just let sonic hit your shield for free, he will keep doing it and it will eventually get poked by 20-40 damage shield combos

be aggressive vs an aerial sonic, his aerial acceleration is poor and his fast aerials have poor range/power on the first hits, he cant really punish you for trying unless your spacing is so awful he doesnt have to airdodge or jump away, if you look at jerm vs espy, he goes for the uair/fair often and all espy can do is jump away and try to reset

if you are lined up properly with sonic when he uses spring, you can dair safely, if you miss sonic you will hit the spring, saving yourself , this isnt recommended because he can meteor cancel with up B very easily and spiking will probably never kill him earlier than fair

homing attack wont lock on without a vulnerable target, if you are invincible or out of range, it will just shoot downward. If you have managed to dead zone sonic and his up B wont get him back safely, do not chase him, if homing attack locks onto you, it can shoot sonic into the air about twice the distance of spring

sonic doesnt combo amazingly well, but he can do massive damage from 1 hitconfirm because his specials cancel so quickly into other things

edit : sonic can camp you with a lead because your projectiles arent very threatening at max range
 
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Thanks for clearing that up, Tesh. I guess it's been too long since I last played a good Sonic.
 
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Even though the Jerm vs. Espy video I linked is from 2011, I still think it's the best display of the MU.
 

Tesh

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Better than the Jerm vs Espy video I linked you from 2013? You can search Tesh vs PJ/Shadow1pj and find a couple of sets. This actually might show you some common mistakes to look out for from Sonics, like overuse of spindash, overzealous juggling by toon link etc.

In any case, the matchup looks pretty even (or Sonic's advantage). It looks like the better player wins, but its been a long time since a top Sonic has faced a top Toon Link imo. It certainly This matchup plays alot like Sonic vs Marth, with alot more patience required to get close to toon link.
 

NH Cody

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Better than the Jerm vs Espy video I linked you from 2013?
yeah I've come to the conclusion that a lot of old vids are better than new vids in some ways, especially when there are no amazingly good vids *at all* of MUs like this one. I've seen Jerm play better than he did here.
 

Tesh

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Both Jerm and Espy stopped playing after the last circuit if I recall, so I guess you could say that was still their "prime". In any case, the new set is probably the 2nd best video you will find of the matchup.

Anyway, I'm the only Sonic that showed up, got any questions for me? If not, you should probably move on, no one else is interested.
 

NH Cody

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lol Tesh, so blunt

if the Sonic is camping at the opposite end of the stage, what kinds of attacks can you do as Toon Link while staying safe?
 

Tesh

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If he is going to just sit there and watch (if I had the lead, I'd probably be this lazy as Sonic), Keep a bomb in hand or in the air before throwing long range things like arrows and boomerangs. Just don't let yourself get in too much of a rhythm here, because all of your specials take a long time to complete. At truly max range, he can't get across the stage AND into the air to punish a bomb pull.

Bombs give you some really good safety for landing and getting out of pressure situations, especially since you can I-bomb, zair, z-drop >aerial and at times force any combo starter to be a mere trade.

Try not to be too afraid of spindash. Most Sonics will charge spindash anywhere from 5-20 seconds while you are approaching to see if you know what not to do. Keep in mind that whichever spindash version it is, after 2 seconds, he is locked in and can't really protect himself unless he does a rising airdodge (completely harmless and usually punishable). Don't run around shielding in from of him, spindash combos poke pretty easily. You should be walking if you aren't in the air, spindash is pretty much guaranteed out of a tech chase. Don't spotdodge in front of spindash if he hasn't released yet (i don't know why people do this).

Grounded spindash won't go through any of your projectiles, so you have less to worry about there than marth. If you are close enough you can just hit him, after a full charge he can't shield or spotdodge so his only defensive option is to jump away and/or airdodge.

Don't get flustered when a read goes bad. For the most part, getting hit by a character this bad won't mean too much if you react properly. If you mess up and know spindash is coming, DI down HARD. Spindash jump is a full hop every time, it cannot be short hopped and if niether of the hits pop you up high enough, Sonic can't follow up with anything but spring or homing attack.
 

Tesh

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We never play this matchup except for like 2 friendlies where you trolled and lost. The last 2 times we fought in tournament, you went MK and Diddy for most of or the entire sets. The last time we played Sonic vs Toon Link I won (even though you are better than me). The last time Espy fought Jerm, he won, and the time before that. The matchup looks even at best for toon link. I've never seen a toon link win it without being unarguably better than the sonic.

I didn't think you were being seriously with "bair away", because that only works as a CQC escape option. Everyone knows its nearly impossible to do that if Sonic is running at you, because he slides into you with his shield and your airspeed isn't THAT high and you bair isn't THAT safe.
 

Thebest1pj

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I trolled in that mm. I literally camped you to 200 percent, then i air dodged around for 5 minutes seeing if i could run the time that way.

10 dollar mm im gonna 3 stock you, you're gonna upload it and ima gonna pat you on the back and give you advice on how to not let that happen again.
 

Tesh

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I'm happy to report that last night the best toon link in the region just lost to the 2nd best Sonic in the region.
 

kingkirby91

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PJ sucks. but from experience as being the best TL on the eastern coast, TL vs Sonic is a very stressful MU. Its mostly a game of whoever gets the 1st kill. Sonic lacks a kill move and an overall approach. just bait him out with SHDA and boomerangs. If u have the patience you should come out as the victor. But you must get the 1st kill because the match WILL be campy
 

Tesh

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Based on results, I've revised my opinion and feel the matchup is even. I can't think of an instance where either character has overcome a better players due to superior tools or a character advantage. History speaks for itself and the better player always seems to win.
 

kingkirby91

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if by anyway ur implying ur better than PJ then u need to stfu right now. u fkn suck. pj is prolli ur only win and the only win u can even brag about. ur jus a 5th rate sonic. come to the EC where we kno MU's and get **** *****.
 

NH Cody

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Kingkirby you need to calm down and apologize to Tesh.

Southpaw, you are very immature for liking that. You people live on the east coast. Big deal. You will both lose to my Sonic offline. I laugh at you both thinking only the EC "knows MUs." Stop it with this pointless regional arrogance.
 

kingkirby91

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quest u fkn idiot. this is KT and i would fkn **** ur trash ass sonic offline. dont act lik u hot to new people. u still suk too
 

NH Cody

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I know you're kingtoon. What's your point? You're not on your kingtoon account. I call people by the names they are using to post.

and no you will not beat my Sonic. Stop being arrogant and randomly flaming everyone.

You can apologize to me too when you're ready.
 

kingkirby91

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I have never lost to a sonic offline. I have a positive record vs every sonic i ever played including Speed when he was in his prime. Your Sonic has no accomplishments to even be noted as ur secondary.

If i hurt ur feelings im sorry but u still suk. prove me wrong and stop sucking
 

NH Cody

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The point is that it doesn't matter who actually sucks and who doesn't. Even if you are better than someone else at a silly video game, you have no right to talk to that person like they are trash and of no value. Tesh was DOING US A FAVOR by coming to our boards and offering legit MU knowledge. You're scaring people away instead of welcoming them to TL boards and appreciating their input >_>
 
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