New Toon Link Matchup Thread

[WindMajor]

Delfino. It is also awesome.

 

[Musketeer04]

Lol. Thats a very good point. I personally like battlefield for this MU, and falco likes it. Tink can take a lot of good angles here and really zone well vs. falco while circle camping.
Lylat could be a very viable CP if not banned, and if so where would you suggest going?
And dont say smashville

Is smashville terrible in this MU? I like going there

 

[1PokeMastr]

That's the problem, EVERYONE likes going to SV.
And as a Falco, I'd ban Yoshi's Island over Lylat.

 

[MJG]

What is your advice on this MU?

Everything (that I would add to this discussion) has been said about this MU at this point.

Lol. Thats a very good point. I personally like battlefield for this MU, and falco likes it. Tink can take a lot of good angles here and really zone well vs. falco while circle camping.
Lylat could be a very viable CP if not banned, and if so where would you suggest going?
And dont say smashville

Lylat is pretty good but...

That's the problem, EVERYONE likes going to SV.
And as a Falco, I'd ban Yoshi's Island over Lylat.

Yes exactly. YI really messes with Falco's side b and we can make good use of the platform on this stage. Kismet is the first falco who recommended CPing falco to this stage.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Falco is screwed over in the stage list right now.
Ban Yoshi's -> Lylat.
Ban Lylat -> Yoshi's.

 

[Musketeer04]

Should we ban FD?

 

[Tsunayoshi]

MJG tried to tell me of a combo at 0% on falco which is dthrow > utilt > bair... from further analysis this dont work. xzax got out of it every time. and last but not least the oldest gimp that everyone forgets about. sit at the ledge and bait a dsmash at low percent. it works.

just tested it and doesnt seem to be true but its still a good mix up cause the falco has to predict the utilt follow up and he only has a short time to jump > airdodge out of it otherwise he will get hit

EDIT: so if he doesnt know it or just react the wrong way we can dthrow > utilt > bair combo him

 

[Musketeer04]

just tested it and doesnt seem to be true but its still a good mix up cause the falco has to predict the utilt follow up and he only has a short time to jump > airdodge out of it otherwise he will get hit

EDIT: so if he doesnt know it or just react the wrong way we can dthrow > utilt > bair combo him

Can Falco jump out of the first up-tilt because I always do down throw> up-tilt

 

[G-Dub]

Dthrow>Pivot grab>Dthrow= loltastic mix-up that works.....jus dont miss

 

[Tsunayoshi]

Can Falco jump out of the first up-tilt because I always do down throw> up-tilt

as far as i tested it he cant jump away after the dthrow. he can still use his jump but the utilt will still connect so he would just lose his 2nd jump and even if he saved his 2nd jump i dont think he can jump away after the utilt

still have to test it tho

 

[G-Dub]

Ok guys if anyone else has anyhing to say about this MU say it now (including you Shadow1pj)
Also, id like a list from all TLs and any falcos a post of this MU ratio (0,+1,+2,-1,-2 etc) and some final thoughts and i'll write a summery of this in a few days.

 

[Musketeer04]

Ledge options? And what to do against rising nair from under a platform?

Also I think it's +1 Falco

 

[G-Dub]

Ledge options? And what to do against rising nair from under a platform?

Also I think it's +1 Falco

Nair from underneath is tough to combat unless you simply read it, have a bomb in hand and throw a bomb on falcos face. Other than that, jus SDI it up and get away. As for ledge options, jus make sure you have a bomb in-hand, and be ready to take a few %'s to get back on stage. Be patient when getting back at high %'s because Oos Usmash will kill reletively early (120-130% fresh) and falcos that know this MU will Bair our UpB and possibly gimp us.

 

[WindMajor]

-2 against Falco, we suck

 

[G-Dub]

-2 against Falco, we suck

so falcos favour?

 

[WindMajor]

Definitely.

 

[MJG]

I wouldn't say -2 honestly. I don't think its quite that bad. I would say -1 for sure though

 

[Tsunayoshi]

i also say -1

 

[NH Cody]

ratios don't matter, just say how to beat the character

 

[MJG]

That's what the panel is for .

Everything else for this char has already been said anyways (unless anyone has anything else to add).

Also, we should start coming up with a new character to discuss. Good job btw G-Dub.

 

[G-Dub]

That's what the panel is for .

Everything else for this char has already been said anyways (unless anyone has anything else to add).

Also, we should start coming up with a new character to discuss. Good job btw G-Dub.

I've got a few ideas for who to discuss next. Im thinking Diddy Kong so if you guys are behind me on that, we can start that discussion. I'll have a write up on falco soon.

 

[kismet2]

Toon link can't really just throw anything out without it being reflected or being lasered. A stage with platforms really helps when you want to be able to avoid falco on the ground and throwing items from above. This way falco has a much harder time reflecting and unless he has lead it'll be hard to get in on an invincibombing>zairing toonlink. When you're forced to chase falco is when he can run with phantasm and spam lasers, use jab/ftilt/aerials to keep you out. To beat falco you have to avoid playing his game no matter what, he has the tools to blow you up with frametraps if you're not careful.

 

[Musketeer04]

I've got a few ideas for who to discuss next. Im thinking Diddy Kong so if you guys are behind me on that, we can start that discussion. I'll have a write up on falco soon.

Control his bananas, you control the diddy.

 

[G-Dub]

Ok, falco vs. toon link: one of the campiest MU in the game.
Toon link should NEVER approach for any reason. If we approach, we're playing into falcos game, and we've already lost. Instead, just stay away. This is said so much when talking about toon link, but in this MU falco really dominates tink up close, and can rack up damage and make the match get out of hand rather quickly. On the ground falco makes every aspect of toon links game much more difficult, but add a platform or three and toon can avoid most of falco's tools and combat them extremely effectively. In the air tink has the advantage. I-bombs and back air effectively wall any approaches falco has for an air and platform camping toonlink.
Killing is very tough for both characters. As tink your best options for a kill are Nair (170%) Bair (170%) Utilt (130%) Fair (100% near the edge) Uair (used against falco recovering with phantasm (120-170%). Zair>USmash is a great way to kill if the falco DI's the Zair poorly.
Falcos best kill options are Usmash (130% can be landed via lazer>BDACUS) Uair (120-140%) Bair (140-160%) and FSmash (120% watch out when on the ledge).
With toonlinks amazing momentum cancels and DI, we can live to very high percents especially if these kill moves are stale. At high percents watch your bomb pulls and dont get into a predictable rhythm when camping, and DONT FISH FOR THE KILL.
Strike to: lylat, YI, or BF
CP: Lylat, YI, delphino
Ban:FD
Basically camp camp camp. Then camp harder. If theres anything you dissagree with or something i missed let me know.

 

[SN Viper]

I think that the Falco Vs Toon link mu comes down to who will be more patience. Falco when he gets close needs to abuse the advantage that he has frame data wise over toon link. Up close falco can put tons of pressure on tink.

I hate bf vs toon link. Vs almost any other char i feel that falco is great on that stage but the way tonn link can camp the platforms makes that stage harder to put damage on toon link.

As the match goes on little damage will get put on here and there. I feel that falco has an easier time killing tink then vise versa. This is not cause falco has better kill options but because Falco can rack damage faster then tink. Once you catch tink with laser to dacus thats the kill or catch tink with a bair while he pulls a bomb. like most MUs if falco trys to rush the kill he will take unnecessary % and possibly get caught for a stock. Once that first stock is off just sit back camp and play safe as possible. The first stock in this mu is very crucial.

I feel like in this mu YI is a good stage for tink. I would ban that or DP under the apex stage list. other wise i would ban BS.

I think that the mu is very annoying and campy. In a tournament setting i love those types of matches in friendlys that **** gets old fast. Falco wins the mu +1 in my opinion. I have some vids of me vs other tinks i am not sure if they are posted.


Also G-dub my NIGGGGGGGGAAAAAA Doe. #theSwampNIGGGGGGAAAcrew

 

[G-Dub]

Ok what character would you toon links out there like to discuss?
or
Think about which of these you would like to better your understanding of, or you just have a tough time with.

 

[NH Cody]

Diddy because I face Diddy mains every month

 

[WindMajor]

W olf

 

[NH Cody]

forget that, Wolf is way easier than Diddy

 

[KT Kasrani]

wolf is hard to fight with TL. especially a good one. I just go D3 tho.

lets talk about zss

 

[G-Dub]

wolf is hard to fight with TL. especially a good one.

agreed.
Ok, since Quest needs help with diddy we'll start the discussion there: A very even top teir MU that every tink needs knowledge in.

 

[WindMajor]

1. For newer TLs, I think it's imperative to remember that you can SH Nair/Fair/Bair/etc., and hit A just above a banana as you're falling to catch it. Your attack won't come out, but you'll grab the banana. It's pretty nifty.

2. I know that by JC-Throwing a banana, we have a free tech chase, but do we have enough time for certain guaranteed punishes? I always use Nair, but would USmash or Grab work?

3. What are certain patterns that Diddy players do? How should we counter them?

4. Lastly, what do we do when we grab a banana? Is it more wise to use it, throw them up or behind you, or throw them away off stage? I guess it would be situational, but how would we know what to do in certain situations?

 

[G-Dub]

2. I know that by JC-Throwing a banana, we have a free tech chase, but do we have enough time for certain guaranteed punishes? I always use Nair, but would USmash or Grab work?

Usmash works if your relatively close and hyphen smash.
Also: I know that during this discussion theres going to be a lot of "control bananas" talk, but i want specific techs to out banana diddy, reliable punishes for diddys arsenal and when to try for these punishments.
True combos off bananas. And correct DI and SDI for diddys multi hit attacks. And any situational stuff that will be easily recognizable and reversed/capitalized on.

 

[WindMajor]

I'll have to hit the lab later tonight.

 

[ViperGold42]

I've found lots of bombs does cool the problem of bananas down.

 

[ShadowTl]

I guess I should know this mu by now so I'll to write some stuff down.

If diddy starts peanut camping, just throws boomerangs and arrows through his peanuts. Bomb beating banana is an important part of this match up. Diddy will try to punish your landings and because of his banana's you need to use different landings then in other match-ups. Usually you're safe with a zair landing but diddy can just take a step back and throw a banana at you from long range, same goes for arrows. Try to hold a bomb and throw it forward when landing to be safe.
On close range spaced nair on diddy's shield is safe. When diddy throws a banana on your shield do a sh nair out of shield. You will catch the banana and diddy can't do any follow ups.
I'm pretty sure banana to nair is true and if you're really close jump cancel throw the banana to up smash or down smash.
Both characters have an easy time gimping eachother. Try to throw a boomerang/bomb/banana on diddy's up b and he's usually dead, if he's coming from under you can try to dair him .Bair is also a great way to gimp his up b but it's kinda hard to time that. But be carefull when you're going offstage. Diddy's up b wrecks ours, don't be predictable when you're coming from under him or he'll spike you with up b.
Don't sit in shield to long, when diddy dash attacks your shield he can grab tl before you can do anything.

 

[MJG]

Landing, while throwing a bomb at diddy, is really important in the MU since bombs will make bananas pop straight up and bombs will continue along its path towards diddy. We can harass diddy pretty well when we have his banana in hand. I usually find this more effective when we have a stock lead, but using diddy's bananas against him is really important in the MU as well.

 

[G-Dub]

Keep watch at how the diddy likes to set up. Expect a lot of bananas tossed upward to keep us in front of him while another stays in his hand or at his feet. SDI his fsmash (its really not difficult to do). With proper momentum cancels and DI, tink can survive to 180 as long as he doesnt get hit by a banana on the ground and i-bomb every fair.
Diddy should die almost everytime he upBs. Rangs and bombs will gimp him out of it, and i-bombing the up b is not too bad an option.

 

[G-Dub]

Bump for inactive tinks that need to come give some MU knowledge. If not i'll jus sum this up and move on to ZSS.

 

[G-Dub]

Diddy vs. Toon Link
As tink you need to watch your landings. Every landing should be as safe as possible: use platforms and bombs tossed forwards to stop incoming bananas. This will hinder diddys chances to get in and retrieve his bananas and will give you access to them.
If tink controls the tempo he has a great advantage because our camp game is more potent than diddys. The same can be said for diddy kong. If he sets the rhythm and keeps stage control it makes in very difficult to keep up percent wise.
Diddy kong will try to set up his banans to punish tinks landings and will look for bomb-pulls to fair/banana combo punish. As always, if you get hit by a banana while on the ground expect to be comboed for massive damage. That being said, stay in the air and platform camp the entire match. If diddy is infront of you holding a naner....jump. Or retreat a nair to catch a read banana toss and cover a diddy kong dash.
Both characters kill eachother well and each has guarrenteed combos that kill with banans. For toon link a very potent banana follow-up is hyphen Usmash which will kill at 120. Also tink has an infinite with one banana: bannan toss->footstool z-catch instatoss down-> footstool. (theres a thread and vid for it (thanks mjg/zinoto/foxisopenlydeceptive)).
Tink will live foreverrrr in this MU with good di.
Diddys kill moves from center stage:
Fair: 130
Fsmash:150 (no joke) and with sdi the second deadly hit of fsmash should not land.
Dsmash:140
Bair: 160
Ftilt: 170
(all values are approximates give or take 10-20% based on di, position on stage, and blast zones)